Summoner (Necromancer specifically) class discussion.

Hey, not to be a pest, I'm reaching out as someone who has been following for a while now. One of the things that most excites me about this game is the rich diversity of class options. The class most sticking out to me being the summoner, and then the necromancer sub-class. My question is regarding this game and summons (more specifically wondering how the necromancer will be handled) Will the summoner archetypes be treated like something in say Guild Wars 2? Basically, a handful of summons that just kind of float around you. Maybe more like Elder Scrolls Online? Which was more or less, ability attacks that incorporated a minion like creature in the different attack spell animations. Or will we be getting something more akin to a True Necromancer. Basically, a slow roll minion class, where you start off weak because you are just you, and then as you kill and animate (or summon) things you build your army up and grow stronger (obviously with an eventual minion cap being achieved through either a mix of a couple large creatures, or a handful of medium strength creatures, or a bunch of weaker disposable minions). Very few games have gone with a true necromancer approach on classes like this due to a variety of reasons, but as a player I find its the variation on summoner (more or less necromancer) classes the most fun. Strategizing how to send in waves of minions, keeping your own position in mind so you don't just get murked to get around them having to kill your army, it's a high-risk high-reward style of play that just isn't seen often due to the challenges developers have in balancing/coding something of that nature. But honestly, just being some self or even party buffer with a bone aesthetic or something of the sort, is a tired trope to simplify the class that's generally used. I think however the team chooses to handle things, i will love the game regardless though.

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Finov

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

There should be a Necromancer specialized in spirits and demons, like a Demonologist of some sort

If you summon demons, then it's a demonologist or a warlock.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

You strike me as a kindred spirit in this matter hah. Im glad there are other necromancy die hards out there.

Thanks for the kind Words,

but actually - Please don't laugh at me - > i just really, really, REALLY haven't played an actually decently designed Necromancer Character anywhere in ANY Fantasy-Universe i liked or VideoGame i liked to play,

since the Expansion of Diablo Two. I kid' you not,
it's been TWENTY - FULL - YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since i really last enjoyed playing a Necromancer.

The Death-Knight Class from a certain MMO named World of (WoW-Token)-Warcraft comes a little bit close, but it feels cheap and not really like a Necromancer,

because duuuh -> it is not a Necromancer, but a twitching and flinching Knight who just happens to be able to summon Undeads on his Side.

Uff. I miss the good, old Days. Part of me wonders to this Day, why i didn't became an edgy Teenager between 1995 and 2005 (<- born in 1985) and when i saw just SO. MANY. good, dark and/or edgy Fantasy-Tropes, Classes, Characters, etc.

I just miss the good, old Days. Sorry for making it sound like it is about "me",

but i think i am just like Sir Steven in that regard. I just want to relive the good, funny Days a little bit, when playing a Fantasy-Game was just SO. MUCH. FUN. !! 😁

I personally think -> the whole Stuff and Content with the whole Caravan-System, "Node-System", Siege-System, Monster-Coin-System - and much more,

is WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY harder to design in a good, satisfying way - than just to design a good Summoner-Class/Specc that is designed to be a Necromancer.

Meaning, i take it easy and have full Trust in Sir Steven and his mighty Crew. If he can make such a grand, glorious Game a Reality - than making a good Necromancer-Class (Specc for the Summoner) should be easily being able to be manageable for the Intrepid-Crew as well.

. 😁

Pedwin

Aszkalon wrote: »

Pedwin wrote: »

You strike me as a kindred spirit in this matter hah. Im glad there are other necromancy die hards out there.

Thanks for the kind Words,

but actually - Please don't laugh at me - > i just really, really, REALLY haven't played an actually decently designed Necromancer Character anywhere in ANY Fantasy-Universe i liked or VideoGame i liked to play,

since the Expansion of Diablo Two. I kid' you not,
it's been TWENTY - FULL - YEARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Since i really last enjoyed playing a Necromancer.

The Death-Knight Class from a certain MMO named World of (WoW-Taken)-Warcraft comes a little bit close, but it feels cheap and not really like a Necromancer,

because duuuh -> it is not a Necromancer, but a twitching and flinching Knight who just happens to be able to summon Undeads on his Side.

Uff. I miss the good, old Days. Part of me wonders to this Day, why i didn't became an edgy Teenager between 1995 and 2005 (<- born in 1985) and when i saw just SO. MANY. good, dark and/or edgy Fantasy-Tropes, Classes, Characters, etc.

I just miss the good, old Days. Sorry for making it sound like it is about "me",

but i think i am just like Sir Steven in that regard. I just want to relive the good, funny Days a little bit, when playing a Fantasy-Game was just SO. MUCH. FUN. !! 😁

I personally think -> the whole Stuff and Content with the whole Caravan-System, "Node-System", Siege-System, Monster-Coin-System - and much more,

is WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY harder to design in a good, satisfying way - than just to design a good Summoner-Class/Specc that is designed to be a Necromancer.

Meaning, i take it easy and have full Trust in Sir Steven and his mighty Crew. If he can make such a grand, glorious Game a Reality - than making a good Necromancer-Class (Specc for the Summoner) should be easily being able to be manageable for the Intrepid-Crew as well. . 😁

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

Smaashley

willsummon wrote: »

Age of Conan Necromancer was the most well done. Except for agro control. The Necromancer used a pet point system that and had a choice of several types of permanent pets, costing different pet points.

The Necromancer could have a few powerful pets, or several weak pets, or a combination. Also, the pet points could be increased at the cost of making the Necromancer more weaker to attacks, or the pet points could be decreased, allowing the Necromancer to do more spell damage.

The spells for the Necromancer ranged from decay damage over time to ice spells.

Also, the Necromancer and their pets had a chance to proc a temporary pets on the killing of an enemy.

Overall the Age of Conan Necromancer was a very flexible class.

I hope the Summoner archetype in general uses a pet point system.

I really like that type of system, and not only for summoners/necromancers. It opens up so many different playstyle.

nanfoodle

My main in EQ1 was a Dark Elf Necro named Gravin. I loved the fact I could make or break teams. Often being able to play with anyone to duo or teamed. Loved going to raid zones and soloing trash mobs. Everyone begging to come play with me when they really needed levels. I would be devided if Ashes Necro was anything like the one from EQ1. I really miss playing a Bard. Gonna have to wait and see.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

100.000% agree.

Enough "cheap, poor quality" Necromancers, Please.

It is unfathomable how VideoGames fail since Years and Years on end to deliver what others "effortlessly" delivered before.

Be it in a Hack-and-Slash like Diablo II,
or a Game like Heroes of Might and Magic Three,

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

Finov

Aszkalon wrote: »

Pedwin wrote: »

You are literally in the exact same spot i am in then. I just want a well designed necromancer as well, and im tired of it being poorly done.

It is unfathomable how VideoGames fail since Years and Years on end to deliver what others "effortlessly" delivered before.

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

I completely agree.

Pedwin

Aszkalon wrote: »

there were a few Games in which Necromancy and undead Aesthetics were done just SO wonderfully beautiful, it was almost criminal when modern Games failed to re-create it.

1,000% agree with you on this.

Aszkalon

Even if i have more or less already said it,

but when it is about " Necromancy " done right - and the Feeling, the Aesthetics, the Vibe and Atmosphere around this spooky, scary World between Life and Death that is the Realm of the Undead,

i think Diablo II had done it really really well -> and " ESPECIALLY " Heroes of Might and Magic Three. Maybe a bit of the later Heroes of Might and Magic Games as well, but especially the Third Game.

Doing this is not hard. Not when People know how to write, design (and program^^) a calm, stoic and melanchonic Realm of eerie Silence, dark Beauty - and the Fantasy-Vibe of the mysterious and impalpable running wild.

Similar like the Feywild - or the Hells. But not like any of them, despite those other Two Realms also being pure Fantasy and boundless in Inspiration.

Just a Realm you can barely understand even if you think You know everything about Necromancy.

Pedwin

It absolutely has been done well in the past to your point, and it's just a shame so many modern games fall flat when trying to recreate that essence of the class.

Aszkalon

Pedwin wrote: »

It absolutely has been done well in the past to your point, and it's just a shame so many modern games fall flat when trying to recreate that essence of the class.

It's a Willingness-Problem in general, though.

It's not limited to Fantasy-Universe Video Games at all. You can see so many Companies fail time and time again to deliver good Games which are actually Fun and which Players really enjoy to play,

because many of them became Micro-transaction and Shop-Article addicted and the " Game " is only second in Priority to them.

One Exception above all other Games than can be seen as Exceptions against this disgusting Greed,

is Baldurs Gate Three.
The best DnD Game since forever, for every Lover of turn-based Fantasy Games. While in that Game, Necromancy is not so much in the Focus,

it broke Limits and became a Blockbuster. The first Priority was Love and the Desire to make the Game as beautiful and perfect as possible in their limited Area's in which the Storyline plays out.
( Part One, Two - and Three )

This is " NOT " hard.

Not when People know what they are doing and "love" what they are doing and want to see it succeed.

It didn't became harder from 2015 to make good Video Games.
It is just that so many People, Companies and Developers, become so dispassionate, lazy and greedy, that it took a SERIOUS blow to their Competence.

And it makes Sense - does it not ?
How can someone expect Competence from Someone who became a crooked Mix between lazy Bungler and fullblown Crook ?

The Gollum-Game from 2023 -> is an absolute Scam and Insolence.

The "Starfield"-Game from Bethesda, is such hot-smoking Garbage of Woke'ness that many Players can only endure it with Modifications that take things like "Pronouns" and other Crap away.

" Aliens Colonial " Marines was the cheekiest, most brazen and most insolent Scam in the whole Video Game History of Xenomorph-Aliens versus Marines from the Alien Universe.

But more so than Incompetence -> i see an outright REFUSAL of Companies and their Developers, to make a good Game.

When Developers start to "talk Trash and Smack" about their Customers. About their Playerbase. About their "Fan's" of the Fantasy-Universes their Games play in,

or even the same but about "MOVIES" like Lord of the Rings and other Franchises,

then i don't see just Incompetence. I see an obstinate, recalcitrant Intractability to " ACTUALLY " do a good Job at what they are doing.

And such People don't deserve Money. They deserve going broke and being bought up by other Companies and Publishers.

Sadly to many Video Gamers have the Willpower of a Drug-Addict in Withdrawl. They get baited with another, cheap Promise and Shot of Dopamine from a VideoGame - which then turns out to be the next Disappointment, after Disappointment, after Disappointment, after Disappointment ... ... 😅 . 😅 . 😅

I saw a few People complain about the Fact, that Sir Steven Sharif seems to be kinda a Perfectionist.

They nagged and whined about the Fact, that Ashes of Creation takes so long, to come out.
Said Stuff like it takes to 2030 or 2035 and how they can't wait to see their Grandchildren play it - and so on.

Thanks the GODS and the Others for Sir Steven being such a Perfectionist.

He and his mighty Crew are not designing a single Player.
Not just a simply Multiplayer Game either.

They design an "MMORPG". A Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.

If you design such a thing -> and do "NOT" aim to make it as good as possible -> You might as well right away throw all the Money you needed "AND" your Lifetime you needed to develop the Game, right into the Trashcan.

And from what i observed, Sir Steven and his fellow Developers are not planning on doing that.

AgniaR

Greetings! Nice to read this topic. I would really like to see a necromancer damage dealer. In the preliminary class table he was listed as a healer. It is very strange. How can the Lord of the Dead heal living characters? His prerogative is to kill, curse, probably (?) drain life.

Depraved

AgniaR wrote: »

Greetings! Nice to read this topic. I would really like to see a necromancer damage dealer. In the preliminary class table he was listed as a healer. It is very strange. How can the Lord of the Dead heal living characters? His prerogative is to kill, curse, probably (?) drain life.

I think necro was summoner/cleric, so not a healer main. anyways, necros could be good at preventing death too? not just resurrecting things that have died. but that would be a stretch I guess.

Solmyr

Here are some things about Summoners and Necromancers from the Wiki:

Up to three summons.
Your minions aren't autonomous. Their abilities are represented on your hotbar, you control them directly.
You have the ability to split incoming damage with your summons.
You have the ability to split outgoing threat with your summons.
Multiple summoners can work together to summon a miniboss during seiges.
Summons aren't temporary. They stick around until they are killed, or the player logs off.
Summons will have some crowd control abilities.
Your race, your subclass, and optional cosmetics will influence the appearance of your summons
There are good and evil Necromancers. Evil Necromancers summon zombies, skeletons, and other undead. Good Necromancers summon spirits
Corpse reanimation is a maybe.
Summons may be able to be customized via a modified character creator.

And here are some quotes on the topic from Steven:

I view the Necromancer as a master of life and death and the way I want to implement our Necromancer is you can choose to be a Necromancer for good or Necromancer for dark and twisted things. Either is viable. If you want to work with spirits that aid you can do that. If you want to summon zombies and skeletons and other type of undead creatures you can do that as well; and then you can use them for your will.

The necromancer is going to be able to choose the path of life or death with regards to its summoning influences and augments. So you'll be able to augment your summons to either aid and assist in healing and providing support to either yourself or the other summons you may have out or other party members; and the death side of that augmentation will really influence your opponent to create damage, to sap life, to manipulate their ability to survive in combat.

Aszkalon

AgniaR wrote: »

I would really like to see a necromancer damage dealer. In the preliminary class table he was listed as a healer. It is very strange.

How can the Lord of the Dead heal living characters? His prerogative is to kill, curse, probably (?) drain life.

Second Archetype/Sublass is Cleric, right ?

I guess this is why a Summoner mixed with it, can cast some Heals.

Although i wouldn't dare to go so far as to guess he can heal as well as a full Cleric, or a Bard or other supporting Class. Or maybe Bard and Summoner are the only Support-Classes ? Damn i realise once again my Knowledge is laughable.

Dripyula

AgniaR wrote: »

How can the Lord of the Dead heal living characters? His prerogative is to kill, curse, probably (?) drain life.

As the D&D community once said " Necromancers... are just very late healers. "

Solvryn

I would love to see the Necromancer cast life-stealing Damage Over Time (DOT) spells on enemies, which then return health as Heal Over Time (HOT) effects on allies. In Asheron's Call, there was a skill called Drain Health that worked just as it sounds—you drained health from enemies to heal yourself. This mechanic would make the Necromancer an interesting counterpart to the Cleric class, providing built-in anti-healing capabilities.

Finov

Solvryn wrote: »

I would love to see the Necromancer cast life-stealing Damage Over Time (DOT) spells on enemies, which then return health as Heal Over Time (HOT) effects on allies. In Asheron's Call, there was a skill called Drain Health that worked just as it sounds—you drained health from enemies to heal yourself. This mechanic would make the Necromancer an interesting counterpart to the Cleric class, providing built-in anti-healing capabilities.

I would like more combat spells. I really want to shoot green balls with a black trail.
Tired of DOT

willsummon

If you like DIablo II Necromancer, which was decent. Check out the Grim Dawn Necromancer

Finov wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I would love to see the Necromancer cast life-stealing Damage Over Time (DOT) spells on enemies, which then return health as Heal Over Time (HOT) effects on allies. In Asheron's Call, there was a skill called Drain Health that worked just as it sounds—you drained health from enemies to heal yourself. This mechanic would make the Necromancer an interesting counterpart to the Cleric class, providing built-in anti-healing capabilities.

I would like more combat spells. I really want to shoot green balls with a black trail.
Tired of DOT

Well, having a spell that sends a fiery green ball with a scream human skull in it towards an enemy would be cool.

The reason for DOT spells with Necromancers is that DOT could be view as a form of decay spell. As in death and decay.

Solvryn

Finov wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I would love to see the Necromancer cast life-stealing Damage Over Time (DOT) spells on enemies, which then return health as Heal Over Time (HOT) effects on allies. In Asheron's Call, there was a skill called Drain Health that worked just as it sounds—you drained health from enemies to heal yourself. This mechanic would make the Necromancer an interesting counterpart to the Cleric class, providing built-in anti-healing capabilities.

I would like more combat spells. I really want to shoot green balls with a black trail.
Tired of DOT

We already have burst healing spells present in the cleric. It makes more sense for Necromancer to havre more dots/hots present.

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