[*] How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
[*] R: Fiquei impressionado com as mudanças que ocorrem no mundo devido á eventos, e também com o fato de ter uma arvores de Quests e sub-quests interligadas, isso realmente me deixa ansiosos para ver o resultado final do jogo, também fiquem emocionado com alguns cenários que vi e amei a dificuldade dos NPCs.
[*] Gostaria de saber se as skill dos chars irão se modicar ou ter bônus climáticos, por exemplo: Ataques de raio dar mais dano durante uma tempestade/chuva ?
It may be due to the similarity in the commissions board posting, but I had flashbacks to New World's town boards, I played NW at launch and one of the places I went to for content were these town boards. I remember a point where no new town board quests were posted, maybe due to the owning guild of the town I'm not sure exactly why-- however, my concern is: "is there a point where a metropolis will have everything it needs and so the commissions board will not have additional posts?" Or would it be something that the larger the node the more need for commissions to be posted in order to maintain?
Also, is there going to be a system where a crafter could request or create a commission to be filled by someone else? Is there a way for players to create the objectives on these town boards?
How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
I really enjoyed the presentation as it showcases layers of gameplay loops and how they all feed together very well. All the while this showed great gameplay previews. Still feel like some spell/skill visuals are a bit "heavy" and would like they to feel a bit lighter.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
I like that there's a routine gameplay loop that isn't dressed up as something more novel or engaging but presents more dynamic content to me as an option. Sometimes I want to play mindlessly and sometimes I want to get lost in a story/event too if I'm feeling like engaging more which this fits perfectly. Great design!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
Variety in type of quests. We did not see the variety of "types" of commissions and it made me wonder about monster variety in nodes and the world at large. If either does not have enough variety it could become stale quickly. Side quests and story quests in tandem might help mitigate fatigue but a good baseline monster variety and quest type is key alongside prevalence of some staples/classics (kill this, gather these, escort this, and delivery quests.)
I also would love to see quests where healing people is an option rather than strictly killing things. So perhaps an option to heal a wounded npc that then assists you while you complete a quest. Help your non-dps oriented classes out and provide ways for them to play they are designed without a loss in efficacy in this mode of play.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
New World. Their boards asked you to make things that were valuable for money and xp to then turn them in. I'd rather they ask for your artisan skill in a quest like scenario where I help npcs craft things in a shop OR gather a commission specific resource for commission specific crafting.
I hate when the game tries to take your resources in a game where gathering/crafting matters. Unless calibrated carefully, it ends up asking you craft something that is more worthwhile to sell or give to a friend. This loss to the economy and allies is always frustrating and not in a fun "friction" way. It is just a symptom of unfun design.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
I loved and hated it (see first question's answer.) The reason I hated it is because I had sort of let the fixation/desire to play A2 die down in my mind months ago and this reignited it which is bad because we're months away.
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FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The system seems like a great place to start testing from in A2.
I am more curious about was not there: mayoral commissions. Commissions seem to be a big element in terms or leading to world change. I wonder if this will be the same for mayoral decision making.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would like to see possibility in some quests to submit the required items as per the quest but also exceed the submission for a possible additional or tiered reward of some kind.. be that coin, material, reputation or something else of value
I enjoyed the whole design and showcase overall, but I want to discuss rewards.
From what we've seen in this showcase, and that other event showcase with the broken caravan, the reward implementation so far is made so everyone gets something. Both had in the end a chest with individual loot, which is concerning.
One thing that this "everyone gets rewarded" mentality for events does is make it very beneficial to Zerg. We've seen more recently the example of New World, where people got together in the hundreds to do chest runs and completely trivialize any form of content in the way. It made the game's content laughable at best.
This could become more problematic if this reward mentality gets implemented in PvE, mobs, and world bosses. It could easily be made so that all the content gets trivialized. It is imperative the reward amount is balanced to reward only the intended party size for that content and not more. That way, the efficient way to farm that content is to go with the intended party size, keeping the content with the ideal level of challenge and discouraging Zerging.
Now you say "what if more people want to do that content?". Well, then the PvX nature of the game shines, people fight over that content and its rewards, and the best at that moment gets it.
I liked that this showcase looked like a game.
No isolated things working only in a specific context.
As we move toward A2 i expect that to be the case more often, teasing one system, but showing much more than that.
Also the mob ai and the mob animations shown, are probably the new benchmark for mmos.
Here is some critical feedback:
- i dont like that the board has a small presence. Too small, i wouldnt really notice it when passing it. For a system that is central to the whole node operating and is supposed to be a social attractor, it should have a bigger footprint imo.
Also the way some of the isekai fantasy anime’s do it with the whole adventure guild tavern vibe is really cool. Makes it more social and „official“ and also works well with the aspect of beeing able access certain commisions only with high node reputation
- id love to have some of the functionality of the UI of the board placed in the game world. Maybe some indicators, on the rarity of the commissions.
- id also have a close look on the rewards and incentives of the commissions. I dont want it to be mandatory to grind commissions 24/7 if you want your node to succeed.
- Other than that, ill leave the usual „ group combat doesnt seem to work well“ comment as always. But i think intrepid is somewhat aware of that, since they kinda avoid showcasing it. Hopefully in the upcoming fighter showcase, we’ll some strides towards that.
The main concern I have is will the commission board be similar to NEW WORLD?
Yes some of the quests in NEW WORLD rotated... but within a few days you quickly saw that the quests were all the same.
Will intrepid update these at a decent pace? So that it does not feel like it is the same 20 quests on rotate?
I think the amount of quests on the board was decent, listed rewards, etc. I just hope it isn't a slog after the first 20 quests realizing that is the loop. I would love if your campaign quests were a part of that system though and it would make it different for each person to some capacity as they are making different choices in what content they choose to pursue.
Whilst he isn't everyone's cup of tea when it comes to content creators, I think Narc was spot on when he addressed this issue.
The question shouldn't be about whether or not quests/commissions should be shareable, that should be a definite yes.
The real issue should be ensuring that there are mechanics in place to prevent the kind of issue we saw in games like ESO, New World, and even GW2, where you end up with giant zerg trains of players just grinding through most of the open world content. Removing a lot of the social aspect (as it becomes more about blitzing through each area as quickly as possible) as well as destroying any chance of that content being challenging/enjoyable. When you log in and see messages in global chat along the lines of " XP Quest chain starting in 30 mins, 10 spots still available, pst for invite/summon!!!!" then you know it's time to just burn it to the ground and start over.
WoW and Lotro were good examples of how to prevent that kind of mentality. They both utilised systems that prevented players from progressing group or solo quests if they were in a raid, not to mention other penalties such as reduced xp gain.
I'd love to see similar systems put in place for AoC, hopefully they'll be quite strict with the penalties too. I'd say something like an 80% xp reduction whilst in raid, as well as being unable to progress any group or solo quests whilst in the raid is a great starting point.
Something I'd love to see in regards to commissions, are built in triggers to expand the quests that branch off the main commission you pick up whilst in town. For example, you accept a commission to search for a missing merchant. Whilst following the path he was last seen on, you find another NPC who requests assistance in locating a rare flower that has healing properties, which the NPC needs to aid a sick family member. The flower, and the merchant are located in roughly the same area, and as the player nears this general location, they find a ranger who has been wounded. They warn you the area is crawling with spiders who have appeared in large numbers recently, and ask your assistance in finding out why. This leads to a new quest chain that involves multiple steps, such as killing spiders to collect a few venom sacks (to make anti-venom) which then becomes important later in the quest when you are eventually tasked with clearing a spider nest/defeating the spider queen inside the nest, etc.
Trains in new world had nothing to do with their in game board. He did a terrible comparison on that and was not spot on. Zergs and commissions are not related as zerging is a different issue all together. It has nothing to do with raid groups or groups at all in new world as you can be solo and do chest runs to get gear / loot.
Trains in new world had nothing to do with their in game board.
The implication isn't that it was designed to encourage trains, but rather that their lack of control systems in general just encouraged that type of behaviour.
Zergs and commissions are not related as zerging is a different issue all together.
They are very much related if there aren't systems built in to prevent/discourage players from creating giant zerg balls or raids to blitz through content that might have been intended to only be completed by small groups.
It has nothing to do with raid groups or groups at all in new world as you can be solo and do chest runs to get gear / loot.
Again, you're talking about a lack of control systems there. For example, if you tried that tactic in a game like lotro, it wouldn't work, because the person/group/raid who tags a mob first, gets the credit and loot when it is defeated.
The New World style of ungrouped raids/zerg trains would not work with a system like that in place. Which could then be complimented by other systems, such as the option to prevent players who are in a raid, from progressing any solo or group related quests.
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BladedanceMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You are on the right track. Everything looked good. Please keep up the good work
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 11
Just wanted to comment on the combat.
After fighting for exactly two minutes, the mage needed to recover HP/MP by sitting down and doing absolutely nothing for nearly 40 seconds, BUT before that, he must first find a resting place where he wouldn't aggro the monsters that aren't even visible on his map until attacked. Everything about this sounds frustrating.
Please aim for a satisfactory and intuitive combat, not a constant struggle against your own character.
The generic solution to this for all classes would be through food that recovers HP/MP; low-tier food sold by NPCs, higher tier obtained through cooking. I wish to see something different, though, without pausing in combat. At the 18:56 minute mark of the video, the mage attempted to perma sleep the monster. At least for PVP, I hope that the target gets an Insomnia/immunity buff against the same CC type, for every hard CC.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
My first thoughts on the 'Commission Board' was Player-made quests like in anime where there is usually a Receptionist in an inn or "Adventurer's Guild" that the player/party interact with to inform everyone that X quest was taken, if we don't come back after the time limit, we get penalized and the quest paper is back on the board.
My biggest fear is a series of daily or weekly repeatable quests. I was hoping to be able to circumnavigate Verra and level and gear along the way. If it were possible, this would be a much preferred alternative to being stuck at a town, even if the leveling was slower.
Great stream. I only have a few points of feedback.
I did not like the presentation of the commission board. I know the UI is a work in progress, however, the UI direction is very mobile game looking (and very similar to New World's Town Projects). I think a different style and presentation should be considered. Perhaps something that incorporates the node's racial aesthetic and the bulletin board's appearance with the paper hand bills?
Also, while it looked like the node leveling up message was placeholder, I would recommend a long delay time so nearby players can rush home and watch their node level up. Maybe even an extended delay for higher stage node leveling events? It's a big moment for anyone who lives there, and they won't want to miss it if possible.
Otherwise, I loved the monster ability VFX, and the event and story arc spawning nearby with the weather changes. The resurrection VFX was very nice as well, that was brilliant.
I agree.. I would love to see more paper hand bills, and there could be stamps of approval with color like you know
example... kill 20 beast..etc (story) at the bottom or top approval stamp with color green - uncommon, blue - rare, gold -epic, etc
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
I will not be playing ashes for these "dailies". They will be a tool to trigger whatever we actually want to do and whether that's interesting or not can't be determined from the video.
World influence looks good, but the interesting part will be the change not the activity to trigger the change.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
I think there was something about economy and currencies on the wiki (though I can't find it) and I'm generally concerned about inflation making rare items infinitely expensive for those who can afford to pay them and everything else dirt cheap, if you (the devs) don't constantly adjust loot tables and payouts. Which you won't, let's be honest about that.
I'm assuming you're going to do some dynamic re balancing of rewards.
Not sure how much that's connected to this.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
If events replicate with 100% accuracy, every time, people will optimize them to death, so I would like to see different NPC tactics, strengths and weaknesses. Ideally perfect counters to whatever the players brought last time. It's easier if there fixed resistances, not sure if the game will work that way.
Obviously adjusted for difficulty , so giving new players or lower level players a few easy wins here and there is probably appropriate, but be sure to mix in some "risky" quests that have some curve balls, optionally designed in a way that can't be beaten sometimes, where the challenge is to find out that they can't be beaten. Depends on your general philosophy though, may not fit the theme you are going for in general.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
I don't think effective story telling can be done in MMOs, at all, so I don't particularly care for them. I appreciate the effort of dressing up the raw mechanics though.
We’d like your feedback on the Commissions Preview shown during the February 2024 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Commissions Preview shown during the February Development Update
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, March 15, 2024, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Looks great! I like that the commissions simply get you out into the world and then everything happens out there. No repetitive, and pointless, trips back to town.
I do feel like things should happen in between steps, as you are traveling. Make something unexpected and unannounced happen on the way, like an ambush or a rival npc that calls you asside to give you and alternative option. I like the setup, but it was a bit predictable and could feel repetitive after the novelty wears off if you don't mix it up a bit.
And when ever possible, and feasible, show the results of our actions in the game world for everyone to see. You want to see, and feel like, players are affecting and changing the world. Not devs
[*] How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
Liked it. Looks like an important way that the game incentivizes players to go out and participate in specific areas in Verra. Seems like a useful tool for the players and the devs.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
Having 30m time slotted tasks can be useful when planning to sit down and play a game. These seem like they may be the bread and butter of logging in and "getting something done" during the levelling phase. If you got time to join in with some of the triggered events when they happen, even better. Hard to know how rare that is.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
I'm both excited and concerned about the variety of commissions that we will be getting at each node. In the grand scheme of things is it going to be like 100 per node? 200 is basically 20 unique commissions per 5 level bracket. If each node is also unique, that's like 85*200 = 17,000 commissions. It seems like a lot of content to generate.
Do they become obsolete at max level? Is this just a levelling tool?
[*] Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Not really, just quests.
[*] How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Looked cool, but I'm not so sure about how many story arcs and side quests each node is going to have. I imagined a kind of "choose your own adventure" thing happening by random people completing the same commission/side quests enough times in one area of the node that it triggers a unique story arc progression based on those conditions. But how many different story arcs can we have per node? Part of the cool thing about Ashes is that every world is supposed to be unique, but if we need tens of thousands of commissions and hundreds of story arcs just so that our specific node gets a different progression than the same node on a different server then it seems like a lot of work. Super cool if you can pull it off though.
Also I don't know how many of these events can only happen once or how often they can happen. If you aren't logged in at the time you miss the content. Or on busy servers things are getting triggered all over the place but on smaller servers nothing gets triggered. Lots of ways that this could end up being frustrating for the players if not implemented right.
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TawniMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The UI is looking much better! I'm happy to see you've incorporated previous feedback (multiple screens open, can move them around, doesn't cover whole screen, etc.)
While watching your stream on commissions, I got an idea while looking at animals and other living objects.
It would be cool to make an encyclopedia that would contain all the animals, mobs, bosses, etc. we have encountered.
The process will look like this: When I see a deer in the forest for the first time, I won’t be able to see what it’s called “Whitetail Deer”, but after studying it or killing it, I can find out its type and, so to speak, save it to my encyclopedia.
The demo on commissions looks outdated and stale, look at 20 year old games like Deus Ex or older ones like RDR. Your NPCs are just standing around in the world, basically statues you interact with..
They need to have their own little story arcs, the first thing should maybe be guarding his kids that learn how to harvest or fight rabbits. The second one would have something else to do and you'd have to find him based on his activity radius.
I can see this statue type NPC quests getting super dull. No one will read or listen to those quests.
Everyone will insta click them away, they are braindead quests after all.
Exactly what I hope to see vanish with the new generation of MMOs.
The commission board and type of progression looks exactly like New World, and that has been one of the most boring progressions I've seen. It failed for many reasons but that part was supposed to bring activity into the world. I doubt anyone enjoyed the experience.
The second thing I really disliked in the demo is AI, it basically is not there.
The enemies you are killing there are absolutely braindead, typically walking back and forth in a straight short line.
You are attacking one of their group and the others are walking back and forth in a straight line.
It's the same thing. That's the cheapest lowest method of AI: no interaction, no line of sight, no audio alerts, no group collaboration.
How it should be?
They are in an area, so they have a purpose there. They should DO something...
You are in line of sight -> they react to you. Maybe 2-3 threaten you, maybe one keeps staring at you the others continue.
You attack one of them -> those who notice it will react to it, you have a group to fight, those wo notice someone running will look also and their radius increases so they might join in from far.
You kill one or two -> one of the group might reach a panic threshold and run away, triggering the others to possibly threshold now too possibly mostly running away.
The second thing I really disliked in the demo is AI, it basically is not there.
The enemies you are killing there are absolutely braindead ... You attack one of them -> those who notice it will react to it, you have a group to fight, those wo notice someone running will look also and their radius increases so they might join in from far.
You kill one or two -> one of the group might reach a panic threshold and run away, triggering the others to possibly threshold now too possibly mostly running away.
That's how a group NPC should work
I love this comment. I do think the AI showcased was likely a bit more basic and I think Steven spoke about it during the stream that there are AIs out there that do some of what you discuss. I like the idea of (when solo) being able to do some activities but I think it should have risk which we saw quickly how it can snowball when solo with Steven's own play (sorry Steven .)
I like the idea of (when solo) being able to do some activities but I think it should have risk which we saw quickly how it can snowball when solo with Steven's own play (sorry Steven .)
Couldn't agree more. I would hate for AoC to end up being a hack and slash heavy MMO like BDO.
The whole risk vs reward element should be present in every type of play mode, regardless of whether you're running solo, in a group, or raid.
Ideally players should have to take a second to stop and assess their surroundings before engaging NPC's in combat. Making sure they're aware of how many are in an agro radius of the mob/s they intend to attack, are there any pathing ones that may wander into the fight area, do they have room to safely fall back to avoid unwanted pulls, etc, etc
I think as a basic system, it was great. Most of the time in other MMOs, the function of a quest board system is to provide experience, rewards, and other things to the player character which can feel a bit underwhelming and unfulfilling. The foundational mechanic to completing commission quests is to provide experience to the node of your choice influencing the world around you and providing value. The ever changing world part of the game excites me and this system leads into that in spades. Meaningful value is what I myself have been looking for to completing content in an MMORPG. I also like that this system also provides that late night, pop on some music and go to work completing commissions and other activities. I don't think every system needs to be so overwhelming and innovative that you can't mellow out cause you need to be completely focused at the task at hand.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
The section above highlights why I'm excited about this system.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
There are some concerns I have with this system and I did do some basic math in my livestream regarding the quantity of commission quests per node. There are 85 nodes with 4 different types of nodes at that. Excluding the 4 different types of node, if there are 25 unique commission quests per node, that means you as the developer would have to create 2,125 commissions quests. Taking into account lower level to mid level to max level commission quests, common, uncommon, rare, epic, legendary quests. My fear is that there will be less than 25 unique commission quests per node and after a couple of weeks, we will have memorized every single commission quest and how to do them. There are other ways to provide experience to the node so maybe instead of commissions being a daily activity, maybe a weekly activity might end up being better for you the developer and us the player. Dailies when they have good value make you as the player feel like you HAVE to complete 20 of these things per day and like I said they have great value in my opinion. By making them weekly, you free up the players time to do other activities in the game and have a more free flow experience rather than a chore list of things you HAVE to do per day.
I don't want to put more on the developers plate regarding commission quests. Hopefully A.I. can provide some help in creating more commission quests for you guys. I just fear as a player that these commissions will get very, very repetitive with less than 20 unique commission quests per node especially when you can select 8 right off the bat at a node. Testing this as a daily I am willing to do but I really do think having them as a weekly might end up being better in the long run.
I don't know if this is a concern but I remember you saying that commissions are able to be completed without having to return to the node. I really like this as a feature to be honest. The bread crumbs of side quests, events, story arcs, random PvP around the world will distract you from these commission quests and THAT'S A GOOD THING! Having the feeling of, "Ohhh, piece of candy..." is a powerful feeling when playing MMORPGs. The feeling of being completely lost and almost forgetting what you were originally doing is what made MMORPGs so great at least to me. So, if you can complete these commission quests and not having to return to the node, that leaves the player in the open world which is a great thing for gameplay.
A concern I have with the type of commission quests is anything profession based. Please don't create commission quests that sinks materials or completed items as a turn in for a commission quest. In other games, I believe the reason why other MMOs do this is because most of the time, the economy in those games are trash. There is an over abundance of materials, items, gear, etc. so the developers needs to create sinks to get rid of these items. The foundation of AoC economy and how players are going to be crafting super early and how important crafting is going to be. Having quests that sinks those materials or items will feel terrible in AoC compared to a game like New World, FFXIV, or WoW. Materials will be a very precious commodity in-game and there is value in these items and materials. So, create other kinds of quests like kill count, caravan, PvP, dungeons, escort, finding treasure and the list can go on.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Them working together is what is going to make this MMORPG great! I mentioned bread crumbs earlier in the post and this is very important. Having things like this where you can accept multiple different quests and going on a journey, getting lost as you play is why MMORPGs are the best.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I feel like I answered this in a previous paragraph. No need to reiterate.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Intro:
There is a lot of overlap between commisions/questing and other systems, so I will be repeating some stuff i've already said before, but its still imortant to understand the context and big picture of how these different concepts can interact and affect each other. The questing systems are a lot more relevant to some of these ideas, so I might talk about some of them in a bit more detail than I did when I mentioned them before. Overall, I think questing/commisions/story arcs are a great opportunity to appeal to those negatotiator, philosopher, detective, and explorer fantasies.
1. Detective based quests and predicates:
Hidden side quests were shown during the stream, which is great. This is a form of investigation and detective work, which I think would be a great focus for questing. I think you could take this even further for making very interesting quest chains, and for making knowledge of the overlapping systems in the game as a whole even more important from the player perspective.
I think these vids could be an insightful summary for helping to create some interesting quest chains, and also making the interconnected predicates even more interesting by making information/knowledge that the player gained from quests relevant for proficiency in other systems, and vice versa for very organic detective style quest chains. (things like needing to know specific mob mechanics as a clue to use in a certain story arc path, or needing to know something from the lore as a clue for exploration, etc.)
A) Key elements
This idea is explored in this vid (this is an updated newer version than the one I posted a while back, so its worth a look)
(1) gathering evidence
-This is basically about exploring and investigating to find different content/clues in the world
(2) following leads
(3) making deductions
-This is about organizing and familiarizing yourself with the information to make your decisions/draw conclusions
(4) comparing possibilities/indentifying contradictions
-This is basically about understanding the information as a whole, comparing and contrasting information and looking for contradictions to further narrow down possibile deductions. In the context of questing, you may have deduced your best path forward into 2 possible options, but your understanding of the information as a whole and spotting conflicting info could be the difference in going with the "wrong" option and triggering one event/story arc, vs going with the "right" option and triggering a different event/story arc, for example.
(5) Testing player knowledge/skill
- This is basically about how you actually test whether the player has done their homework. Its about not prompting them with choices that giveaway the answers and undermine the gameplay they are supposed to do. Its about keeping choices invisible through things like manually typing in your own answers/responses instead of choosing between presets.
This is an important part of making the system have depth, skill, and discovery. Its more of a fundamental aspect of gameplay in general. Making invisible choices are part of ensuring the player is doing the heavy lifting to keep things fun and interesting, rather than undermining the other design aspects by handing them too much information.
B- Other References
Heres a couple other case studies for reference that could further improve the above aspects
-This is another interesting example of some fun detective type gameplay
2. Fun dialogue playstyles in questing:
With Steven talking a lot about A.I. innovation in the stream, and his recent comments about looking into chat gpt and its use for adding new ways to engage with dialogue and the narrative loops in the game, I thought it would be worth bringing up ways to implement compelling dialogue-based gameplay for questing, while this is being looked into during development. This could make for an interesting new type of fantasy, add a new type of gameplay/skill-check, add more depth, and also add to the role-playing aspects, immersion, and story telling as well.
Some key points from this inlcude:
- The importance of knowing character tendencies/backstories/personalities
- Skillfully reading social cues/emotional states
- The detective aspects when interacting with npcs (such as choosing what to say based on your knowledge of the facts, deductions, understandings, spotting contradictory info, finding clues in the world etc.)
- reactive/emergent responses (can change based on other predicates)
B- Some other key points about interesting dialogue:
- Another important aspect of dialogue is allowing npc interactions to be free flowing and natural conversation (like being able to interrupt exposition and move while talking). Here is an example of how this was implemented in the game Oxenfree, as explained at 4:34 in this video:
- Its also imortant to ensure the gameplay is skillful and interesting. Part of that for dialogue choices could mean not prompting the player with the choices/answers, but making them come up with solutions from their own mind to make "invisible choices".
Here is a vid that discussed methods to provide invisible choices for a dialogue based game, which could leverage chat gpt for similar types of interactions in a large scale mmo with a variety of npc types.
As far as scaling a large amount of unique characters and traits that are also interesting and have depth, these two vids discuss some streamlined ways to approach this, that might be of some help.
I talked about this before but since its relevant ill mention it again- I loved Square Enix's implementation of dialogue in their rpg "Triangle Strategy". It was very engaging from a role playing perspective to make philisophical decisions of whether I wanted to make decisions based on my inference of each option's intrinsic morality, liberty, or utilitarian perspectives. Then, I needed to understand the other characters and their own unique traits in order to convince them to agree with me based on my knowledge of their personalities, backstories, lifestyles, role's in the story, and information that I discovered about those characters while exploring. It was a very unique kind of gameplay that I enjoyed a lot about the game and it would be awesome to see Ashes use the ideas of testing player's lore/character/story knowledge, social skills, detective work, and moral expression, and improving upon these types of designs through the use of AI, chat gpt (such as making players come up with their own dialogue when appropriate, rather than being prompted by the game's dialogue options, as explained in the Event AI video and the detective video about making good "testers" for player knowledge and understanding), and other modern technology to fit within the vision of AOC. I think this would add awesome elements of role playing and very interesting fantasy experiences and fun gameplay for players to enjoy. If this is not what Steven was referring to when talking about some possible designs surrounding this topic that will be tested during alpha 2, then it might be out of scope for right now. However, I do think it would mesh well with Ashes and at least be worth considering as a part of the potential added factions that were discussed as possible DLC later down the line, as a way to make them more engaging to interact with through the above stuff I mentioned, along with them having their own motivations/goals/methodologies/behaviors/etc.
3. The Storytelling aspects of questing and its predicates/consequences:
Commisions are a type of questing in Ashes, and play into the story arcs and the cascading factors that effect each player's individual story and experience, so storytelling is an important consideration for commisions, questing, and the interconnected systems.
A) Using emergent systems and mechanics to tell authored stories-
There is so much potential and opportunity for story telling through the questing systems and other predicates. A large appeal of systemic games is that you can experience a certain idea or message rather than just being told about it. Its kinda like the difference being sympathizing with a character, vs empathizing with them. Its important to be able to actually feel and experience different perspectives, and to express yourself within these systems and find your place in the story being told.
- 9:49 of this vid talks about the experience being created and the possible stories that can be told through the systems design, such as the GTA example of how the different ways that predicates can be triggered can be a way the gameplay itself can deliver a specific message. I think this is a great example of how curated stories can still be delivered through the actual moment to moment gameplay of emergent systemic games, and have even more of an impact due to the organic ways that players receive and experience these messages (see 9:49):
This is another case study on story telling through mechanics, specifically in regards to relationships and reputations, which could be very interesting in Ashes due to the adaptive A.I. and especially if more robust npc behaviors are explored:
This vid explores how moral expression can be embedded into the mechanics themselves, so you can actively role-play your moral expression, which would be very interesting story telling from a gameplay perspective:
- The idea of moral grey areas and philosophy could be explored to add context and perspective to those moral choices, which would help reinforce the story elements and make those choices more interesting, impactful, meaningful, and enlightening. I think it would be beneficial to look at the games "Disco elysium", "Planescape Torment", and the other ones addressed in the top 10 video below; all of which have very interesting philisophical story telling, and moral expression elements. I think incoporating this dimension of story telling could enhance the engaging and immersive story Ashes intends to provide, which would be a prime opportunity in these types of questing systems and how its affected through cascading effects by other interconnected systems/predicates, such as the in-game religions.
These video essays explore these interesting ideas, in case you are interested, where he does a great job at highlighting some key aspects of what makes philophical games so interesting, such as the aspects of metaphysics, existentialism, ethics, and epistemology, for example:
Those are a few I recommend checking out, but there are a lot more on that channel that could be useful resources and inspiration for crafting the most interesting story that resonates with players, such as the videos on the most profound games, and the deep dive videos on the stories of various games.
B- Story telling of music
I have a lot of faith in Bear McCreary for executing on the music in Ashes. Though, regarding the actual intent and story behind the music he is making from a game design perspective, I have 2 Youtube channel recommendations that might be helpful when talking about how music can be used for impactful storytelling- "Game Score Fanfare" and "8-bit Music theory". These channels explore some very interesting aspects of music in gaming. I think this would be insightful when looking into how to make the story beats even more impactful when designing the commisions/questing/story arcs/etc.
The Leitmotif series is important for understanding some fundamental ways that music has been used for storytelling in gameplay, which is important to understand how certain games did this best. This can reinforce the storytelling done by other aspects of the game as well if utilized, and can further drive home the ideas of empathetic storytelling and other impactful aspects of storytelling that could make for immersive and engaging stories when playing through the story arcs and supporting narrative structures of Ashes:
Theres a bunch more on the channel that I encourage you to check out, but those are a few very interesting ones.
Other than overarching story beats (get it? lol), music can also be used to enhance the player's personal story beats as well.
Some of the coolest moments and stories i've had as a player have been from the music synchronizing with my performance. Most of the time this happened accidentally, like doing a combo that happened to sync to the beat of the background music, but this feeling was highly immersive and fun to me anyway, and gave a sense of rhythm and storytelling to my gameplay as my combat performance would improve and fluctuate enough to match up to the beat of the song. This video talks a bit about these ideas that I found interesting:
It would be cool if the music was dynamic enough to reflect this player performance, such as maybe classes having their own leitmotif, which could be layered on the background music to reflect the player turning the tide of a fight in their favor, or an intense chorus being triggered when stringing together a series of attacks. Just something to consider that I think is pretty cool.
C) Storytelling of environment
I've already mentioned this in the past as well so I won't go into detail, but due to its relevance to commisions/questing/story arcs/predicates, I'll just link some useful references and case studies on environmental story telling for your convenience to have in one spot in case they are useful for you.
I love that the different systems are weaved together and effected by each other through overlapping and cascading effects. This makes things emergent, adds depth to game strategy, knowledge, and skill needed to discover and understand how the systems overlap and affect each other. It also keeps things dynamic and fresh to mix up gameplay to avoid feeling static.
- I really hope that different existing factions/characters all have their own motivations, goals, methodologies, behaviors, and personalities, to really add the necessity to deepen your game knowledge on the lore surrounding them, in order to tailor your stratrgies and approaches around that, as the world state shifts around.
- I think another big aspect of reactivity, is making sure the player perceives that it is happening. Its important for players to recognize that their choices are being honored and impact the world. Sometimes games are very reactive, but the player doesn't actually realize it and still thinks that the game is linear and that things would play out the same way regardless of their past choices, even if thats not the case. So, somehow making sure the player can perceive this reactivity should be considered in the design as well.
5. Gameplay aspects of questing and world predicates
The means by which predicates/consequences are triggered and discovered is opportunity for unique and varied skill-checks along with emergent systemic gameplay opportunities.
- If possible, allowing player proficiency within other systems to discover unique predicate triggers should be possible. This could mean supporting a predicates ability to be triggered by various playstyles, like crafting expertise, naval expertise, combat expertise, etc.; For example, such as prompting curiousity of what lies inside of a mountain, and allowing a skilled naval captain to be able to blow a hole in the mountain to trigger an event. Stuff like that would be really intriguing and interesting, with obviously the caviot of more complex predicates possibly requiring a combination of those aspects to reflect the risk vs. reward idea.
This could be predicate triggers based on:
A) exploration to find hidden side quests (which was one aspect I liked a lot about the stream)
B- Investigation, deduction, and organizing information of lore/clues to trigger predicates (clues that are hidden in environment, story, character interactions, etc.)
C) knowledge of mechanics/interactions to trigger predicates:
Obviously with the node system, Ashes will have an element of sequence breaking, but I like the other topic explored in the video relating to using mechanic knowledge to progress which would be an interesting trigger for predicates and world state changes:
The idea of knowledge as a gameplay mechanic is pretty interesting and unique, and used acrossed many types of systems as you naturally discover and learn about the gameplay mechanics and the world within a given game. I think there are ways to take it further by emphasizing the importance of knowledge in different ways, which could make for interesting ways of discovering, progressing, and triggering predicates in the world of Ashes as talked about here:
D) solved puzzle predicate triggers
This could be quests or dungeons that use riddles, mechanic/knowledge based puzzles, jump puzzles, or 3d environmental puzzles that involve spacial reasoning to solve, like this:
E) hidden areas triggers discovered through mobility/utility skills
F) etc.
6. Commisions:
I love the idea of being able to choose what specific commisions you want to participate in, and how that organically leads you into emergent opportunities. Just try to keep the actual commisions themselves interesting, fun, and dynamic to avoid feeling like a chore since a lot of players will want to focus on a certain kind, and since that is a big part of your moment to moment gameplay.
Honestly this was one of the best livestreams so far. I would say changing the UI look would be an easy improvement, but my only other concern would be the timing.
Just worried I might miss certain important quests that are based on node levels / time windows.
So long as I can experience all that the game has to offer I'll be happy!
Pros:
This gives many players an easy way to understand and contribute to node progress
Good if some of them promotes group play
Cons:
If this is the only way to contribute to node development it can become a bit stale i think
General:
I would like to see that node development is also affected by more vague things that players can figure out on their own, a little bit from all types of gameplay is probably the way to go., It might enhance immersion. It is a preference of how much handholding you want as well
I do have some concerns regarding what was shown, though.
1) Everything looks nice with 1 to 3 people on the quest board and NPC's, but how will that be targeted when say 100 people are all piled up on it?
2) I am not really liking how easily mobs are being defeated. Personally, I think certain job classes should have a significant advantage over solo play, compared to other classes that heavily rely on a group in order to advance. Having every class be able to easily solo their way to cap just promotes the "Hurry up and get to cap level because that's when the game really begins." mentality. If a class that focuses on buffs is easy to level, when you get to cap with that job class, they don't have much of a worth as a commodity to a party (outside of their spells/abilities) because there are 10k other players also at the cap level. I think certain classes should be more of a rarity at the cap level and require vastly more work to achieve.
I feel that if someone were to need a roll filled and asked a group, "Who has a bard at cap level?" Everyone shouldn't be able to raise their hand because they all have 10 alts at their caps. I think having 2-3 job classes at the cap level should take at least a year and a half, if not longer, to accomplish.
Please, please, please make the journey to cap level long and arduous. Please move away from the "The game doesn't really begin until end-game" mentality.
Cons:
If this is the only way to contribute to node development it can become a bit stale i think
General:
I would like to see that node development is also affected by more vague things that players can figure out on their own, a little bit from all types of gameplay is probably the way to go., It might enhance immersion. It is a preference of how much handholding you want as well
Everything players do in the area, from killing monsters to picking flowers, gives the node XP. Commissions seem to be a more focused way of doing it, but it's by no means the only way. Doing the quests and story arcs they lead to will also help the node.
Trains in new world had nothing to do with their in game board.
The implication isn't that it was designed to encourage trains, but rather that their lack of control systems in general just encouraged that type of behaviour.
Zergs and commissions are not related as zerging is a different issue all together.
They are very much related if there aren't systems built in to prevent/discourage players from creating giant zerg balls or raids to blitz through content that might have been intended to only be completed by small groups.
It has nothing to do with raid groups or groups at all in new world as you can be solo and do chest runs to get gear / loot.
Again, you're talking about a lack of control systems there. For example, if you tried that tactic in a game like lotro, it wouldn't work, because the person/group/raid who tags a mob first, gets the credit and loot when it is defeated.
The New World style of ungrouped raids/zerg trains would not work with a system like that in place. Which could then be complimented by other systems, such as the option to prevent players who are in a raid, from progressing any solo or group related quests.
i feel like you did not play new world and don't understand how the chest runs worked... its not related to quest nor related to mob tagging. It is not a compression that makes sense hence my point in it being weak in relation to commissions that is more inline with questing.
You are effectively trying to say looting items in the world or chest is the same as doing a quest.
You can make the argument about non instanced content could be zerged down. But you also need to listen to what the devs had said where you need to do a certain amount of dmg to get credit. Meaning being a a zerg does not mean you get credit for the quest making that motive more discouraged.
Again attacking mobs and looting chest are separate issues...
Comments
[*] How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
[*] R: Fiquei impressionado com as mudanças que ocorrem no mundo devido á eventos, e também com o fato de ter uma arvores de Quests e sub-quests interligadas, isso realmente me deixa ansiosos para ver o resultado final do jogo, também fiquem emocionado com alguns cenários que vi e amei a dificuldade dos NPCs.
[*] Gostaria de saber se as skill dos chars irão se modicar ou ter bônus climáticos, por exemplo: Ataques de raio dar mais dano durante uma tempestade/chuva ?
Also, is there going to be a system where a crafter could request or create a commission to be filled by someone else? Is there a way for players to create the objectives on these town boards?
I really enjoyed the presentation as it showcases layers of gameplay loops and how they all feed together very well. All the while this showed great gameplay previews. Still feel like some spell/skill visuals are a bit "heavy" and would like they to feel a bit lighter.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
I like that there's a routine gameplay loop that isn't dressed up as something more novel or engaging but presents more dynamic content to me as an option. Sometimes I want to play mindlessly and sometimes I want to get lost in a story/event too if I'm feeling like engaging more which this fits perfectly. Great design!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
Variety in type of quests. We did not see the variety of "types" of commissions and it made me wonder about monster variety in nodes and the world at large. If either does not have enough variety it could become stale quickly. Side quests and story quests in tandem might help mitigate fatigue but a good baseline monster variety and quest type is key alongside prevalence of some staples/classics (kill this, gather these, escort this, and delivery quests.)
I also would love to see quests where healing people is an option rather than strictly killing things. So perhaps an option to heal a wounded npc that then assists you while you complete a quest. Help your non-dps oriented classes out and provide ways for them to play they are designed without a loss in efficacy in this mode of play.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
New World. Their boards asked you to make things that were valuable for money and xp to then turn them in. I'd rather they ask for your artisan skill in a quest like scenario where I help npcs craft things in a shop OR gather a commission specific resource for commission specific crafting.
I hate when the game tries to take your resources in a game where gathering/crafting matters. Unless calibrated carefully, it ends up asking you craft something that is more worthwhile to sell or give to a friend. This loss to the economy and allies is always frustrating and not in a fun "friction" way. It is just a symptom of unfun design.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
I loved and hated it (see first question's answer.) The reason I hated it is because I had sort of let the fixation/desire to play A2 die down in my mind months ago and this reignited it which is bad because we're months away.
I am more curious about was not there: mayoral commissions. Commissions seem to be a big element in terms or leading to world change. I wonder if this will be the same for mayoral decision making.
From what we've seen in this showcase, and that other event showcase with the broken caravan, the reward implementation so far is made so everyone gets something. Both had in the end a chest with individual loot, which is concerning.
One thing that this "everyone gets rewarded" mentality for events does is make it very beneficial to Zerg. We've seen more recently the example of New World, where people got together in the hundreds to do chest runs and completely trivialize any form of content in the way. It made the game's content laughable at best.
This could become more problematic if this reward mentality gets implemented in PvE, mobs, and world bosses. It could easily be made so that all the content gets trivialized. It is imperative the reward amount is balanced to reward only the intended party size for that content and not more. That way, the efficient way to farm that content is to go with the intended party size, keeping the content with the ideal level of challenge and discouraging Zerging.
Now you say "what if more people want to do that content?". Well, then the PvX nature of the game shines, people fight over that content and its rewards, and the best at that moment gets it.
No isolated things working only in a specific context.
As we move toward A2 i expect that to be the case more often, teasing one system, but showing much more than that.
Also the mob ai and the mob animations shown, are probably the new benchmark for mmos.
Here is some critical feedback:
- i dont like that the board has a small presence. Too small, i wouldnt really notice it when passing it. For a system that is central to the whole node operating and is supposed to be a social attractor, it should have a bigger footprint imo.
Also the way some of the isekai fantasy anime’s do it with the whole adventure guild tavern vibe is really cool. Makes it more social and „official“ and also works well with the aspect of beeing able access certain commisions only with high node reputation
- id love to have some of the functionality of the UI of the board placed in the game world. Maybe some indicators, on the rarity of the commissions.
- id also have a close look on the rewards and incentives of the commissions. I dont want it to be mandatory to grind commissions 24/7 if you want your node to succeed.
- Other than that, ill leave the usual „ group combat doesnt seem to work well“ comment as always. But i think intrepid is somewhat aware of that, since they kinda avoid showcasing it. Hopefully in the upcoming fighter showcase, we’ll some strides towards that.
The main concern I have is will the commission board be similar to NEW WORLD?
Yes some of the quests in NEW WORLD rotated... but within a few days you quickly saw that the quests were all the same.
Will intrepid update these at a decent pace? So that it does not feel like it is the same 20 quests on rotate?
I think the amount of quests on the board was decent, listed rewards, etc. I just hope it isn't a slog after the first 20 quests realizing that is the loop. I would love if your campaign quests were a part of that system though and it would make it different for each person to some capacity as they are making different choices in what content they choose to pursue.
Trains in new world had nothing to do with their in game board. He did a terrible comparison on that and was not spot on. Zergs and commissions are not related as zerging is a different issue all together. It has nothing to do with raid groups or groups at all in new world as you can be solo and do chest runs to get gear / loot.
The implication isn't that it was designed to encourage trains, but rather that their lack of control systems in general just encouraged that type of behaviour.
Agree to disagree.
They are very much related if there aren't systems built in to prevent/discourage players from creating giant zerg balls or raids to blitz through content that might have been intended to only be completed by small groups.
Again, you're talking about a lack of control systems there. For example, if you tried that tactic in a game like lotro, it wouldn't work, because the person/group/raid who tags a mob first, gets the credit and loot when it is defeated.
The New World style of ungrouped raids/zerg trains would not work with a system like that in place. Which could then be complimented by other systems, such as the option to prevent players who are in a raid, from progressing any solo or group related quests.
After fighting for exactly two minutes, the mage needed to recover HP/MP by sitting down and doing absolutely nothing for nearly 40 seconds, BUT before that, he must first find a resting place where he wouldn't aggro the monsters that aren't even visible on his map until attacked. Everything about this sounds frustrating.
Please aim for a satisfactory and intuitive combat, not a constant struggle against your own character.
The generic solution to this for all classes would be through food that recovers HP/MP; low-tier food sold by NPCs, higher tier obtained through cooking. I wish to see something different, though, without pausing in combat.
At the 18:56 minute mark of the video, the mage attempted to perma sleep the monster. At least for PVP, I hope that the target gets an Insomnia/immunity buff against the same CC type, for every hard CC.
My first thoughts on the 'Commission Board' was Player-made quests like in anime where there is usually a Receptionist in an inn or "Adventurer's Guild" that the player/party interact with to inform everyone that X quest was taken, if we don't come back after the time limit, we get penalized and the quest paper is back on the board.
I agree.. I would love to see more paper hand bills, and there could be stamps of approval with color like you know
example... kill 20 beast..etc (story) at the bottom or top approval stamp with color green - uncommon, blue - rare, gold -epic, etc
Don't care, in a good way. Looks good enough.
I will not be playing ashes for these "dailies". They will be a tool to trigger whatever we actually want to do and whether that's interesting or not can't be determined from the video.
World influence looks good, but the interesting part will be the change not the activity to trigger the change.
I think there was something about economy and currencies on the wiki (though I can't find it) and I'm generally concerned about inflation making rare items infinitely expensive for those who can afford to pay them and everything else dirt cheap, if you (the devs) don't constantly adjust loot tables and payouts. Which you won't, let's be honest about that.
I'm assuming you're going to do some dynamic re balancing of rewards.
Not sure how much that's connected to this.
If events replicate with 100% accuracy, every time, people will optimize them to death, so I would like to see different NPC tactics, strengths and weaknesses. Ideally perfect counters to whatever the players brought last time. It's easier if there fixed resistances, not sure if the game will work that way.
Obviously adjusted for difficulty , so giving new players or lower level players a few easy wins here and there is probably appropriate, but be sure to mix in some "risky" quests that have some curve balls, optionally designed in a way that can't be beaten sometimes, where the challenge is to find out that they can't be beaten. Depends on your general philosophy though, may not fit the theme you are going for in general.
I don't think effective story telling can be done in MMOs, at all, so I don't particularly care for them. I appreciate the effort of dressing up the raw mechanics though.
Looks great! I like that the commissions simply get you out into the world and then everything happens out there. No repetitive, and pointless, trips back to town.
I do feel like things should happen in between steps, as you are traveling. Make something unexpected and unannounced happen on the way, like an ambush or a rival npc that calls you asside to give you and alternative option. I like the setup, but it was a bit predictable and could feel repetitive after the novelty wears off if you don't mix it up a bit.
And when ever possible, and feasible, show the results of our actions in the game world for everyone to see. You want to see, and feel like, players are affecting and changing the world. Not devs
Liked it. Looks like an important way that the game incentivizes players to go out and participate in specific areas in Verra. Seems like a useful tool for the players and the devs.
[*] What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
Having 30m time slotted tasks can be useful when planning to sit down and play a game. These seem like they may be the bread and butter of logging in and "getting something done" during the levelling phase. If you got time to join in with some of the triggered events when they happen, even better. Hard to know how rare that is.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
I'm both excited and concerned about the variety of commissions that we will be getting at each node. In the grand scheme of things is it going to be like 100 per node? 200 is basically 20 unique commissions per 5 level bracket. If each node is also unique, that's like 85*200 = 17,000 commissions. It seems like a lot of content to generate.
Do they become obsolete at max level? Is this just a levelling tool?
[*] Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Not really, just quests.
[*] How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Looked cool, but I'm not so sure about how many story arcs and side quests each node is going to have. I imagined a kind of "choose your own adventure" thing happening by random people completing the same commission/side quests enough times in one area of the node that it triggers a unique story arc progression based on those conditions. But how many different story arcs can we have per node? Part of the cool thing about Ashes is that every world is supposed to be unique, but if we need tens of thousands of commissions and hundreds of story arcs just so that our specific node gets a different progression than the same node on a different server then it seems like a lot of work. Super cool if you can pull it off though.
Also I don't know how many of these events can only happen once or how often they can happen. If you aren't logged in at the time you miss the content. Or on busy servers things are getting triggered all over the place but on smaller servers nothing gets triggered. Lots of ways that this could end up being frustrating for the players if not implemented right.
Well done!
While watching your stream on commissions, I got an idea while looking at animals and other living objects.
It would be cool to make an encyclopedia that would contain all the animals, mobs, bosses, etc. we have encountered.
The process will look like this: When I see a deer in the forest for the first time, I won’t be able to see what it’s called “Whitetail Deer”, but after studying it or killing it, I can find out its type and, so to speak, save it to my encyclopedia.
They need to have their own little story arcs, the first thing should maybe be guarding his kids that learn how to harvest or fight rabbits. The second one would have something else to do and you'd have to find him based on his activity radius.
I can see this statue type NPC quests getting super dull. No one will read or listen to those quests.
Everyone will insta click them away, they are braindead quests after all.
Exactly what I hope to see vanish with the new generation of MMOs.
The commission board and type of progression looks exactly like New World, and that has been one of the most boring progressions I've seen. It failed for many reasons but that part was supposed to bring activity into the world. I doubt anyone enjoyed the experience.
The enemies you are killing there are absolutely braindead, typically walking back and forth in a straight short line.
You are attacking one of their group and the others are walking back and forth in a straight line.
It's the same thing. That's the cheapest lowest method of AI: no interaction, no line of sight, no audio alerts, no group collaboration.
How it should be?
They are in an area, so they have a purpose there. They should DO something...
You are in line of sight -> they react to you. Maybe 2-3 threaten you, maybe one keeps staring at you the others continue.
You attack one of them -> those who notice it will react to it, you have a group to fight, those wo notice someone running will look also and their radius increases so they might join in from far.
You kill one or two -> one of the group might reach a panic threshold and run away, triggering the others to possibly threshold now too possibly mostly running away.
That's how a group NPC should work
I love this comment. I do think the AI showcased was likely a bit more basic and I think Steven spoke about it during the stream that there are AIs out there that do some of what you discuss. I like the idea of (when solo) being able to do some activities but I think it should have risk which we saw quickly how it can snowball when solo with Steven's own play (sorry Steven
Couldn't agree more. I would hate for AoC to end up being a hack and slash heavy MMO like BDO.
The whole risk vs reward element should be present in every type of play mode, regardless of whether you're running solo, in a group, or raid.
Ideally players should have to take a second to stop and assess their surroundings before engaging NPC's in combat. Making sure they're aware of how many are in an agro radius of the mob/s they intend to attack, are there any pathing ones that may wander into the fight area, do they have room to safely fall back to avoid unwanted pulls, etc, etc
How do you feel about the Commissions Preview?
I think as a basic system, it was great. Most of the time in other MMOs, the function of a quest board system is to provide experience, rewards, and other things to the player character which can feel a bit underwhelming and unfulfilling. The foundational mechanic to completing commission quests is to provide experience to the node of your choice influencing the world around you and providing value. The ever changing world part of the game excites me and this system leads into that in spades. Meaningful value is what I myself have been looking for to completing content in an MMORPG. I also like that this system also provides that late night, pop on some music and go to work completing commissions and other activities. I don't think every system needs to be so overwhelming and innovative that you can't mellow out cause you need to be completely focused at the task at hand.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Commissions system?
The section above highlights why I'm excited about this system.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Commissions Preview?
There are some concerns I have with this system and I did do some basic math in my livestream regarding the quantity of commission quests per node. There are 85 nodes with 4 different types of nodes at that. Excluding the 4 different types of node, if there are 25 unique commission quests per node, that means you as the developer would have to create 2,125 commissions quests. Taking into account lower level to mid level to max level commission quests, common, uncommon, rare, epic, legendary quests. My fear is that there will be less than 25 unique commission quests per node and after a couple of weeks, we will have memorized every single commission quest and how to do them. There are other ways to provide experience to the node so maybe instead of commissions being a daily activity, maybe a weekly activity might end up being better for you the developer and us the player. Dailies when they have good value make you as the player feel like you HAVE to complete 20 of these things per day and like I said they have great value in my opinion. By making them weekly, you free up the players time to do other activities in the game and have a more free flow experience rather than a chore list of things you HAVE to do per day.
I don't want to put more on the developers plate regarding commission quests. Hopefully A.I. can provide some help in creating more commission quests for you guys. I just fear as a player that these commissions will get very, very repetitive with less than 20 unique commission quests per node especially when you can select 8 right off the bat at a node. Testing this as a daily I am willing to do but I really do think having them as a weekly might end up being better in the long run.
I don't know if this is a concern but I remember you saying that commissions are able to be completed without having to return to the node. I really like this as a feature to be honest. The bread crumbs of side quests, events, story arcs, random PvP around the world will distract you from these commission quests and THAT'S A GOOD THING! Having the feeling of, "Ohhh, piece of candy..." is a powerful feeling when playing MMORPGs. The feeling of being completely lost and almost forgetting what you were originally doing is what made MMORPGs so great at least to me. So, if you can complete these commission quests and not having to return to the node, that leaves the player in the open world which is a great thing for gameplay.
A concern I have with the type of commission quests is anything profession based. Please don't create commission quests that sinks materials or completed items as a turn in for a commission quest. In other games, I believe the reason why other MMOs do this is because most of the time, the economy in those games are trash. There is an over abundance of materials, items, gear, etc. so the developers needs to create sinks to get rid of these items. The foundation of AoC economy and how players are going to be crafting super early and how important crafting is going to be. Having quests that sinks those materials or items will feel terrible in AoC compared to a game like New World, FFXIV, or WoW. Materials will be a very precious commodity in-game and there is value in these items and materials. So, create other kinds of quests like kill count, caravan, PvP, dungeons, escort, finding treasure and the list can go on.
How do you feel about the way Commissions, side quests, and story arcs worked together during the Commissions Preview?
Them working together is what is going to make this MMORPG great! I mentioned bread crumbs earlier in the post and this is very important. Having things like this where you can accept multiple different quests and going on a journey, getting lost as you play is why MMORPGs are the best.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I feel like I answered this in a previous paragraph. No need to reiterate.
Intro:
1. Detective based quests and predicates:
I think these vids could be an insightful summary for helping to create some interesting quest chains, and also making the interconnected predicates even more interesting by making information/knowledge that the player gained from quests relevant for proficiency in other systems, and vice versa for very organic detective style quest chains. (things like needing to know specific mob mechanics as a clue to use in a certain story arc path, or needing to know something from the lore as a clue for exploration, etc.)
A) Key elements
Some key points to highlight here are:
(1) gathering evidence
-This is basically about exploring and investigating to find different content/clues in the world
(2) following leads
(3) making deductions
-This is about organizing and familiarizing yourself with the information to make your decisions/draw conclusions
(4) comparing possibilities/indentifying contradictions
-This is basically about understanding the information as a whole, comparing and contrasting information and looking for contradictions to further narrow down possibile deductions. In the context of questing, you may have deduced your best path forward into 2 possible options, but your understanding of the information as a whole and spotting conflicting info could be the difference in going with the "wrong" option and triggering one event/story arc, vs going with the "right" option and triggering a different event/story arc, for example.
(5) Testing player knowledge/skill
- This is basically about how you actually test whether the player has done their homework. Its about not prompting them with choices that giveaway the answers and undermine the gameplay they are supposed to do. Its about keeping choices invisible through things like manually typing in your own answers/responses instead of choosing between presets.
This is an important part of making the system have depth, skill, and discovery. Its more of a fundamental aspect of gameplay in general. Making invisible choices are part of ensuring the player is doing the heavy lifting to keep things fun and interesting, rather than undermining the other design aspects by handing them too much information.
B- Other References
- this could be useful for good ways to design and place clues in the environment
-This is another interesting example of some fun detective type gameplay
2. Fun dialogue playstyles in questing:
A) Key elements
Some key points from this inlcude:
- The importance of knowing character tendencies/backstories/personalities
- Skillfully reading social cues/emotional states
- The detective aspects when interacting with npcs (such as choosing what to say based on your knowledge of the facts, deductions, understandings, spotting contradictory info, finding clues in the world etc.)
- reactive/emergent responses (can change based on other predicates)
B- Some other key points about interesting dialogue:
- Its also imortant to ensure the gameplay is skillful and interesting. Part of that for dialogue choices could mean not prompting the player with the choices/answers, but making them come up with solutions from their own mind to make "invisible choices".
Here is a vid that discussed methods to provide invisible choices for a dialogue based game, which could leverage chat gpt for similar types of interactions in a large scale mmo with a variety of npc types.
C) Scaling complex npcs
I talked about this before but since its relevant ill mention it again- I loved Square Enix's implementation of dialogue in their rpg "Triangle Strategy". It was very engaging from a role playing perspective to make philisophical decisions of whether I wanted to make decisions based on my inference of each option's intrinsic morality, liberty, or utilitarian perspectives. Then, I needed to understand the other characters and their own unique traits in order to convince them to agree with me based on my knowledge of their personalities, backstories, lifestyles, role's in the story, and information that I discovered about those characters while exploring. It was a very unique kind of gameplay that I enjoyed a lot about the game and it would be awesome to see Ashes use the ideas of testing player's lore/character/story knowledge, social skills, detective work, and moral expression, and improving upon these types of designs through the use of AI, chat gpt (such as making players come up with their own dialogue when appropriate, rather than being prompted by the game's dialogue options, as explained in the Event AI video and the detective video about making good "testers" for player knowledge and understanding), and other modern technology to fit within the vision of AOC. I think this would add awesome elements of role playing and very interesting fantasy experiences and fun gameplay for players to enjoy. If this is not what Steven was referring to when talking about some possible designs surrounding this topic that will be tested during alpha 2, then it might be out of scope for right now. However, I do think it would mesh well with Ashes and at least be worth considering as a part of the potential added factions that were discussed as possible DLC later down the line, as a way to make them more engaging to interact with through the above stuff I mentioned, along with them having their own motivations/goals/methodologies/behaviors/etc.
3. The Storytelling aspects of questing and its predicates/consequences:
A) Using emergent systems and mechanics to tell authored stories-
- 9:49 of this vid talks about the experience being created and the possible stories that can be told through the systems design, such as the GTA example of how the different ways that predicates can be triggered can be a way the gameplay itself can deliver a specific message. I think this is a great example of how curated stories can still be delivered through the actual moment to moment gameplay of emergent systemic games, and have even more of an impact due to the organic ways that players receive and experience these messages (see 9:49):
This next one talls about using mechanics to subvert expectations for a more impactful experiential story telling moment:
This is another case study on story telling through mechanics, specifically in regards to relationships and reputations, which could be very interesting in Ashes due to the adaptive A.I. and especially if more robust npc behaviors are explored:
- The storytelling segment in the same sims video I linked earlier at 15:35, is also relevant to this topic:
- Here is another example of empathetic storytelling through the gameplay mechanics in the "What remains of edith finch" section at 11:15 of this vid:
This vid explores how moral expression can be embedded into the mechanics themselves, so you can actively role-play your moral expression, which would be very interesting story telling from a gameplay perspective:
- The idea of moral grey areas and philosophy could be explored to add context and perspective to those moral choices, which would help reinforce the story elements and make those choices more interesting, impactful, meaningful, and enlightening. I think it would be beneficial to look at the games "Disco elysium", "Planescape Torment", and the other ones addressed in the top 10 video below; all of which have very interesting philisophical story telling, and moral expression elements. I think incoporating this dimension of story telling could enhance the engaging and immersive story Ashes intends to provide, which would be a prime opportunity in these types of questing systems and how its affected through cascading effects by other interconnected systems/predicates, such as the in-game religions.
These video essays explore these interesting ideas, in case you are interested, where he does a great job at highlighting some key aspects of what makes philophical games so interesting, such as the aspects of metaphysics, existentialism, ethics, and epistemology, for example:
Those are a few I recommend checking out, but there are a lot more on that channel that could be useful resources and inspiration for crafting the most interesting story that resonates with players, such as the videos on the most profound games, and the deep dive videos on the stories of various games.
B- Story telling of music
The Leitmotif series is important for understanding some fundamental ways that music has been used for storytelling in gameplay, which is important to understand how certain games did this best. This can reinforce the storytelling done by other aspects of the game as well if utilized, and can further drive home the ideas of empathetic storytelling and other impactful aspects of storytelling that could make for immersive and engaging stories when playing through the story arcs and supporting narrative structures of Ashes:
memorability is one important aspect of impactful use of Leitmotif, and this idea of memorability is explored here:
Here are some examples of how a few legendary games utilized this musical storytelling method in interesting and impactful ways:
Theres a bunch more on the channel that I encourage you to check out, but those are a few very interesting ones.
Other than overarching story beats (get it? lol), music can also be used to enhance the player's personal story beats as well.
Some of the coolest moments and stories i've had as a player have been from the music synchronizing with my performance. Most of the time this happened accidentally, like doing a combo that happened to sync to the beat of the background music, but this feeling was highly immersive and fun to me anyway, and gave a sense of rhythm and storytelling to my gameplay as my combat performance would improve and fluctuate enough to match up to the beat of the song. This video talks a bit about these ideas that I found interesting:
It would be cool if the music was dynamic enough to reflect this player performance, such as maybe classes having their own leitmotif, which could be layered on the background music to reflect the player turning the tide of a fight in their favor, or an intense chorus being triggered when stringing together a series of attacks. Just something to consider that I think is pretty cool.
C) Storytelling of environment
4. The reactivity/emergent aspects of predicates
- I really hope that different existing factions/characters all have their own motivations, goals, methodologies, behaviors, and personalities, to really add the necessity to deepen your game knowledge on the lore surrounding them, in order to tailor your stratrgies and approaches around that, as the world state shifts around.
- I think another big aspect of reactivity, is making sure the player perceives that it is happening. Its important for players to recognize that their choices are being honored and impact the world. Sometimes games are very reactive, but the player doesn't actually realize it and still thinks that the game is linear and that things would play out the same way regardless of their past choices, even if thats not the case. So, somehow making sure the player can perceive this reactivity should be considered in the design as well.
5. Gameplay aspects of questing and world predicates
- If possible, allowing player proficiency within other systems to discover unique predicate triggers should be possible. This could mean supporting a predicates ability to be triggered by various playstyles, like crafting expertise, naval expertise, combat expertise, etc.; For example, such as prompting curiousity of what lies inside of a mountain, and allowing a skilled naval captain to be able to blow a hole in the mountain to trigger an event. Stuff like that would be really intriguing and interesting, with obviously the caviot of more complex predicates possibly requiring a combination of those aspects to reflect the risk vs. reward idea.
This could be predicate triggers based on:
A) exploration to find hidden side quests (which was one aspect I liked a lot about the stream)
B- Investigation, deduction, and organizing information of lore/clues to trigger predicates (clues that are hidden in environment, story, character interactions, etc.)
C) knowledge of mechanics/interactions to trigger predicates:
Obviously with the node system, Ashes will have an element of sequence breaking, but I like the other topic explored in the video relating to using mechanic knowledge to progress which would be an interesting trigger for predicates and world state changes:
The idea of knowledge as a gameplay mechanic is pretty interesting and unique, and used acrossed many types of systems as you naturally discover and learn about the gameplay mechanics and the world within a given game. I think there are ways to take it further by emphasizing the importance of knowledge in different ways, which could make for interesting ways of discovering, progressing, and triggering predicates in the world of Ashes as talked about here:
D) solved puzzle predicate triggers
This could be quests or dungeons that use riddles, mechanic/knowledge based puzzles, jump puzzles, or 3d environmental puzzles that involve spacial reasoning to solve, like this:
E) hidden areas triggers discovered through mobility/utility skills
F) etc.
6. Commisions:
Thanks for reading!
Just worried I might miss certain important quests that are based on node levels / time windows.
So long as I can experience all that the game has to offer I'll be happy!
Pros:
This gives many players an easy way to understand and contribute to node progress
Good if some of them promotes group play
Cons:
If this is the only way to contribute to node development it can become a bit stale i think
General:
I would like to see that node development is also affected by more vague things that players can figure out on their own, a little bit from all types of gameplay is probably the way to go., It might enhance immersion. It is a preference of how much handholding you want as well
I do have some concerns regarding what was shown, though.
1) Everything looks nice with 1 to 3 people on the quest board and NPC's, but how will that be targeted when say 100 people are all piled up on it?
2) I am not really liking how easily mobs are being defeated. Personally, I think certain job classes should have a significant advantage over solo play, compared to other classes that heavily rely on a group in order to advance. Having every class be able to easily solo their way to cap just promotes the "Hurry up and get to cap level because that's when the game really begins." mentality. If a class that focuses on buffs is easy to level, when you get to cap with that job class, they don't have much of a worth as a commodity to a party (outside of their spells/abilities) because there are 10k other players also at the cap level. I think certain classes should be more of a rarity at the cap level and require vastly more work to achieve.
I feel that if someone were to need a roll filled and asked a group, "Who has a bard at cap level?" Everyone shouldn't be able to raise their hand because they all have 10 alts at their caps. I think having 2-3 job classes at the cap level should take at least a year and a half, if not longer, to accomplish.
Please, please, please make the journey to cap level long and arduous. Please move away from the "The game doesn't really begin until end-game" mentality.
Everything players do in the area, from killing monsters to picking flowers, gives the node XP. Commissions seem to be a more focused way of doing it, but it's by no means the only way. Doing the quests and story arcs they lead to will also help the node.
i feel like you did not play new world and don't understand how the chest runs worked... its not related to quest nor related to mob tagging. It is not a compression that makes sense hence my point in it being weak in relation to commissions that is more inline with questing.
You are effectively trying to say looting items in the world or chest is the same as doing a quest.
You can make the argument about non instanced content could be zerged down. But you also need to listen to what the devs had said where you need to do a certain amount of dmg to get credit. Meaning being a a zerg does not mean you get credit for the quest making that motive more discouraged.
Again attacking mobs and looting chest are separate issues...