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does combat need a revamp?
Chicago
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
as for the graphics and esthetics of the game everything is looking great and the more time that passes it looks better and better each live stream, however one issue i have and this may just be my opinion but having such a long development cycle for this game has the issue that combat needs to be revamped or overhauled 3-4x before we even launch, there are so many positives about the game over the past year however the combat to me still looks extremely dull, slow-paced and almost looks like a isometric game whilst watching it, ( think diablo ) this might feel way different when actually playing the game so take that with a grain of salt but does anyone have any suggestions or feedback for this?
a good example to me would be mage in wow dragon flight vs mage in AoC, i don't play wow but from the shorts i have seen the mage in wow looks super reactive, versatile, fast paced, exactly what a mage should be, the mage in AoC looks like its trying to play while it has 2 feet and an arm in quicksand, the abilities are slow, the combat isn't reactive, blizzard looks terrible to use as it almost ccs your self and it just doesn't seem fun to play, this isnt a FuD or critique post just my opinions and id love to hear yours, have a great day!
a good example to me would be mage in wow dragon flight vs mage in AoC, i don't play wow but from the shorts i have seen the mage in wow looks super reactive, versatile, fast paced, exactly what a mage should be, the mage in AoC looks like its trying to play while it has 2 feet and an arm in quicksand, the abilities are slow, the combat isn't reactive, blizzard looks terrible to use as it almost ccs your self and it just doesn't seem fun to play, this isnt a FuD or critique post just my opinions and id love to hear yours, have a great day!
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Me first!
YES!
not really sure what you mean by that lol but okay xD
That would definitely be the most logical and reasonable way to do things
i love how impossible it is to actually have a conversation about anything on these forums without posts like this but okay mate you obviously know thats not what i was saying
I prefer the current combat design and I'd rather than have a yet another discussion of "should we have split body or not". And this would be that exact discussion, because changing the speed of mage abilities has huge implications for the balancing of the entire combat system.
We haven't seen the entire skillset. We haven't seen bard and all his buffs. We haven't seen any potential synergies that might influence how fast the combat might be in a real situation. Hell, we haven't truly seen real combat, because all of the shit we've seen so far has been staged in one way or another. We've also mostly seen Steven's pov, who likes to have his camera up in the stratosphere and play the game like a strategy (he's just like me frfr).
In other words, before A2 we (as in, the majority of us) can't say how the game truly plays. So the only thing you can get from people in this sort of discussion is 10+ pages of "NO IT SHOULD BE HOW I WANT IT!! - FUCK YOU, MY WAY IS THE ONLY LOGICAL WAY!!"
If you are looking at AoC alpha combat and trying to compare it to a mmorpg without context you are already in the wrong imo. You are comparing a alpha to a finished game, you are comparing a low level character to a high lvl character.
You shouldn't not be expecting to see top tier kits of what has currently been shown as they mentioned they want players to have mobility (doesn't mean zooming). Expect combat to be even faster naturally as you gain more tools. Also don't expect all classes to be as fast.
Honestly if you have an example you should share the video link im failing to see what looks special about this though.
That's why I said that w/o playing it (especially at max lvl) we wouldn't really know how truly fast it is.
Honestly im more confused how you can say it should be like wow and reference that as fast lol.
https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
those asking for references here are some, also i am aware its an A2 game and not finished im just bringing up these points to get some feedback as we have not seen any combat advances in what feels like years at this point but here you go
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d9b1a8gQ7NY
vs
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lmOLFT48VHw
like just as an example in my opinion little things like having a cast time on a spell that then creates a ball that moves in slow motion towards the enemy looks like it would feel super bad, make it move faster or remove the cast time, by the way i am aware it may feel totally different whilst playing the game
There is not much of a difference if you cut out the fat of half of that clip. WoW mage standing still to cast a spell is no different that AoC standing still to cast a spell lol. I think you are letting the music and sporadic camera movements make you think something is faster than it actually is.
Now that im done taking the clip at face value based on your own point. I am overly tired of your post like this trying to compare a max level character to a lvl 15 character. UIF you are trying to do a clip comparison and want t be taken seriously find a lvl 15 WoW mage and use that to compare to Aoc at the very minimum.
Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks-
Also why are you using a skill showcase and using it to compare high lvl pvp....Like please make your takes some what genuine atleast. You should be showing the pvp showcase and still not taking that as high level pvp, nor max level pvp....
You are ruining your own point by having the conversation be about you using things in a unbalanced way to try to make a point...
You realise that exact move is in WoW too, Arcane sphere in Arcane spec, it just goes slightly faster than what you see in Ashes. WoWs speed and pace has picked up dramatically over the last decade. Go back 10-15years
Every spell took longer to cast (roughly 2-4 seconds) before cd reductions, even mounting got cut in half, they had ranks for different spells (bigger the rank the longer the cast) WoW has a lot of instant casts too and relying on procs to make spells go from cast to instant
AoC also has skill shots, which isn’t as much in WoW, so think more NW with abilities that need to be aimed and shot at a target instead of just everything automatically hitting targets and the only counter was dead zoning
EDIT: I think things will speed up as the game progresses
jesus mate you are the reason people dont discuss anything on here anymore because its the same 5 people just shutting down every single post, for starters the combat looks nothing alike, and obviously the characters are not max level in aoc but if the spells are as dull as they are now at max level i dont see what the change would be, i would like to see your opinion sure but
'' Though you aren't going to do that because you wouldn't have much of a point then right -winks ''
this shit is just stupid
Naaa you just can't take criticism for your own post and take accountability. You are even trying to make the assumption everything stays the same as lvl 15 even ignoring what they have not just talked about but shown in showcases with skills changing.
WoW is basic and its not hard to do any of that, and why it looks the same once you cut out the bs. Use spell target area, channel; and cast or use spell while being able to move and target or area affect. THere is nothing special that is shown in the video at all no speed or anything of the sort. Just expectations of what a higher level character can do. The wow character was simply jumping and using blink once in awhile (their blink looks terrible btw).
Ya how about i do that isntead of you trying to spread misinformation about skills.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Active_skills
Im literarily tired of your combat post trying to have bad takes, and say its bad because its not like a max lvl WoW character.
Not to mention now you are moving the top from speed to "Dull" and I don't even know what that is suppose to mean in relation to speed....
Edit* to make this clear i don't care if you have criticism of the combat, everyone does i have my own voice points it should be more action oriented. But what you are using as an example for speed and your points aren't making any kind of strong argument....Imo more like WoW is not the direction it should go that is not good.
@Chicago I hope you don't mind me giving you friendly advice about how to get a better reaction on these boards, if I may?
It will be easier to understand you (at least for me) if you would break your paragraphs into sentences and use proper capitalization other common rules of English. Such writing just makes it easier to follow your ideas. For example, your first paragraph in the OP was 123 words without a sentence break, the second one was 114.
It is too easy for the reader to get bogged down and unable to follow the logical flow. After you type a first draft, consider proofreading and improving what you wrote in order to clarify your ideas. This will make people more receptive to what you are saying.
Maybe if you zoom out too much.
Intrepid should definitely listen to OP that is comparing fully finished MMOs with level +60 combat with lvl 15 pre-alpha combat, looks like he knows what he is talking about.
I see your point about the lightning ball in Ashes, but I'd hope/imagine that augments and buffs will give us the ability to speed things up - both cast speeds and spell effects. The ever-fucking-present example of "rush becomes a blink" is best representation of that. Instead of a rush that might take 1.5-2s of animation, the blink would probably be closer to 1-1.5s over the same distance.
Also, afaik wow relies on casts more than on casts+basic attacks. Ashes will supposedly rely on the combo of abilities and basic attacks (cause procs and shit), so while the abilities might be on a slightly slower side (with higher impact) - overall combat is faster because you're also spamming some basic attacks to gain procs.
Nope, this time we seriously do not actually know what you're saying.
There are many different types of combat for many different MMOs
Ok, to get the first bit out of the way, if your main problem is the lightning ball, just 'don't take that skill' and the whole kit would feel faster, right? Some mages like slow big stuff, some don't.
If I assume you think 'everything' is slow, unlike NiKr I do like to step through frame by frame, and Ashes is the same or faster. What Intrepid might not have mastered yet is the BDO trick of having more individual flashy parts happen to mask the fact that it's moving at the standard game design speed.
Designers literally know this, human brains are super easy to trick this way. You want someone to feel an ability is 'more effective'? Shoot 10 shots in 1 second instead of 4. It doesn't matter if they have the same total animation time, same damage, and same ability to move while shooting.
People just wanna see more stuff seem to happen in the same amount of time.
Some days I just wanna build Prophecy Typhoon Skysplitter Sevarog just to see my basic attack rate go whoosh. Am I more effective? Nah. Most of the time it's less because Predecessor is an actual Hybrid Combat game and wobbling my view around to make it feel like I'm 'reacting' might make all those hammer swings miss.
That's the other part, btw. The Ashes part didn't have the 'camera wiggle'. If you want to feel like you're playing a faster game, wiggle your camera more. Especially during your 2-5s of being CCed and unable to do anything. Or take a quick look 90 degrees to either side right as your animation for a Tab Targeted attack starts to 'watch for other enemies'.
That should be enough to make Ashes combat feel the same as WoW, that's the 'difference you feel when you get your hands on it'. The game isn't different, you're just 'more frantic'.
I'd fear the player who makes WoW PvP look slow, because they're the one with the least wasted motion.
Developers went through the data and found that if anything it was a little too strong. They tweaked the graphics to make the casting animation feel a bit more grand, and those same players posted a thanks to the developers for making the ability stronger.
Point is, many people have no idea about anything in an MMO other than how something looks and feels. They dont want to get any more detailed than that, and so dont.
So, as someone who has played WoW as well, and dreadful music aside...
If I am completely honest, I am quite certain that the WoW video you linked isn't too far off from where AoC is headed. Remember that you are comparing a max level mage of WoW to a level 15 mage of Verra. xd
Imo, the mage gameplay in that WoW video is not very "fast" per se, but it is a mix of weaving instantanous spells and casted spells (and standing there silenced xd ). I think most of the illusion comes from the upbeat music and the blinking WeakAuras that the WoW guy has installed. Also, remember that it is very different to watch people playing PvP vs people playing PvE in open world. Honestly, I think AoC is going to be played much smoother and quicker than the mage of WoW when they hit endgame with quicker casting times through better gear and/or skill/weapon augments.
Personally, I am not sure if that is the ideal kind of gameplay that I'd prefer - I would take GW1 or GW2s combat over WoWs any day, because of the kit design and the choice beteen your abilities.... And even if there are spells like the Blizzard spell that slows the character down (there are spells like that in GW2 as well), they are still mobile as opposed to many WoW casts that actually require the caster to stand absolutely still like a target dummy (thank you, thank you, thank you, Intrepid for not going that route). And while WoWs combat certainly isn't what makes it fun, I can "live with it," should Intrepid choose to take combat in that direction, but right now I am very pleased with where it is at. But alas, I share @ILLPeonU s take - combat is not "make or break" for me, as long as it is decent enough I'll live with it...
Its suposed to be hybrid but we never see that side in streams. I dont think they have a working prototype even or they just given up on hybrid tab/action combat all together.
Ether way they need to show more before we talk redesign.
The discussion and feedback process for this game suffers from being an echo chamber. While it's no different than any other MMO prerelease, I do wonder how much the poor feedback process has hurt the development of games I've watched ranging from Vanguard to Crowfall. After seeing the office hours yesterday, this game is in desperate need of feedback from different sources. I hope you continue to share your feedback.