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Making the case against level cap increases in expansions.
Nerror
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
I strongly believe increasing the adventuring level cap in Ashes of Creation after launch is a bad idea for the game, and here are a few of the reasons why:
1. It adds unnecessary development time for each expansion, slowing the pace of content releases.
Increasing the level cap means having to rewrite and change existing areas and content to make room for the new levels, regardless of any new areas being added to the game. Some change to the world is both needed and expected with any major expansion obviously, but the negative impact on existing content will be less if the level cap stays the same.
The ZOI of a node is fixed in size. They can either add more areas under ground or in the sky, or they can shrink the existing lvl 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc. areas within each ZOI to make room for the lvl 51-60 and later on the lvl 61-70 stuff, and so on. It's going to feel cramped. Either way, significant changes to the world geography is necessary for each level cap increase, unless all the higher-level content is instanced or moved to an entirely new region. Both those options would be terrible for the game in so many other ways. For the game to function properly, the world needs a pretty active player base in the open world in and around the existing nodes.
2. It makes major pieces of content that Intrepid have spent years making somewhat obsolete.
From itemization to questlines and story arcs, to dungeons and world bosses, all carefully crafted and balanced to give us a great levelling experience to max level, and great gameplay loops while at max level.
It nullifies the progress the players have made with their characters while at the level cap to a large extent. Especially in terms of gearing. That legendary you worked months to get the materials for, sieging other nodes for their relevant relics for crafting, and farming world bosses, is now comparatively worthless compared to a rare you can get in an hour or less at the new max level.
I absolutely want to explore new zones and areas in expansions, especially that harbinger moon, but I also very much want existing old lvl 50 content still be relevant at max level, and not have my progress reset.
Unless they want to pull a WoW and only release major expansions every 1-2 years, I doubt they can match both the quantity and the quality of the initial max level content with their currently planned schedule of releasing content on a monthly, quarterly and six-monthly basis.
3. Time to reach max level and new player acquisition and retention.
It forces Intrepid to either make levelling faster for newbies, as a catch-up mechanic, which means they are more likely to skip content as they blaze through levels, making the entire experience poorer. Or they can keep the levelling speed the same which prolongs the journey to max level for newbies significantly. This can make it harder to retain them, or even get them to sign up in the first place if they think it'll take too long to reach the max level.
Better solutions
There are superior ways of continuing character progression in expansions, both vertical and horizontal, that have already successfully been done in other games in the past.
Dark Age of Camelot was the first MMORPG where I saw a fixed level cap at 50 even with expansions, where they added Master Levels and Realm Ranks to progress. You increased your Master Level by completing trials, which rewarded you with special abilities depending on both class and the skill path you chose. Realm Ranks were gained in RvR (PvP) and you got bonuses to all skills as well as the ability to spend points on skill enhancements and prestige titles. These two systems combined provided players with both vertical and horizontal character progression without completely making old content obsolete. The obvious translation to Ashes would be extra skills and access to powerful augments as players progress.
Guild Wars 2 has the Mastery system, where lvl 80 (max) players can earn mastery points in different masteries which provide account-wide benefits such as gliding, mounts, and other unique abilities. I don't think we should have account wide bonuses in Ashes, but many of the aspects of the GW2 mastery system could be used as inspiration for an Ashes mastery system.
Elder Scrolls Online has the Champion system, where players after hitting lvl 50 (max) start earning champion points they can put into account-wide bonuses that are mostly passive in nature. Again, I don't want account-wide bonuses for Ashes I think, but the basic system with the different champion point trees is something that Ashes can be inspired by.
I don't want to make this post any longer, so I'll wrap it up here. I really hope Intrepid/Steven reconsider their current plans of level cap increases and adopt a smarter system inspired by the successes of the other three games above. It's going to fit so much better with the node system and the lack of level-based zones in Ashes.
1. It adds unnecessary development time for each expansion, slowing the pace of content releases.
Increasing the level cap means having to rewrite and change existing areas and content to make room for the new levels, regardless of any new areas being added to the game. Some change to the world is both needed and expected with any major expansion obviously, but the negative impact on existing content will be less if the level cap stays the same.
The ZOI of a node is fixed in size. They can either add more areas under ground or in the sky, or they can shrink the existing lvl 1-10, 11-20, 21-30 etc. areas within each ZOI to make room for the lvl 51-60 and later on the lvl 61-70 stuff, and so on. It's going to feel cramped. Either way, significant changes to the world geography is necessary for each level cap increase, unless all the higher-level content is instanced or moved to an entirely new region. Both those options would be terrible for the game in so many other ways. For the game to function properly, the world needs a pretty active player base in the open world in and around the existing nodes.
2. It makes major pieces of content that Intrepid have spent years making somewhat obsolete.
From itemization to questlines and story arcs, to dungeons and world bosses, all carefully crafted and balanced to give us a great levelling experience to max level, and great gameplay loops while at max level.
It nullifies the progress the players have made with their characters while at the level cap to a large extent. Especially in terms of gearing. That legendary you worked months to get the materials for, sieging other nodes for their relevant relics for crafting, and farming world bosses, is now comparatively worthless compared to a rare you can get in an hour or less at the new max level.
I absolutely want to explore new zones and areas in expansions, especially that harbinger moon, but I also very much want existing old lvl 50 content still be relevant at max level, and not have my progress reset.
Unless they want to pull a WoW and only release major expansions every 1-2 years, I doubt they can match both the quantity and the quality of the initial max level content with their currently planned schedule of releasing content on a monthly, quarterly and six-monthly basis.
3. Time to reach max level and new player acquisition and retention.
It forces Intrepid to either make levelling faster for newbies, as a catch-up mechanic, which means they are more likely to skip content as they blaze through levels, making the entire experience poorer. Or they can keep the levelling speed the same which prolongs the journey to max level for newbies significantly. This can make it harder to retain them, or even get them to sign up in the first place if they think it'll take too long to reach the max level.
Better solutions
There are superior ways of continuing character progression in expansions, both vertical and horizontal, that have already successfully been done in other games in the past.
Dark Age of Camelot was the first MMORPG where I saw a fixed level cap at 50 even with expansions, where they added Master Levels and Realm Ranks to progress. You increased your Master Level by completing trials, which rewarded you with special abilities depending on both class and the skill path you chose. Realm Ranks were gained in RvR (PvP) and you got bonuses to all skills as well as the ability to spend points on skill enhancements and prestige titles. These two systems combined provided players with both vertical and horizontal character progression without completely making old content obsolete. The obvious translation to Ashes would be extra skills and access to powerful augments as players progress.
Guild Wars 2 has the Mastery system, where lvl 80 (max) players can earn mastery points in different masteries which provide account-wide benefits such as gliding, mounts, and other unique abilities. I don't think we should have account wide bonuses in Ashes, but many of the aspects of the GW2 mastery system could be used as inspiration for an Ashes mastery system.
Elder Scrolls Online has the Champion system, where players after hitting lvl 50 (max) start earning champion points they can put into account-wide bonuses that are mostly passive in nature. Again, I don't want account-wide bonuses for Ashes I think, but the basic system with the different champion point trees is something that Ashes can be inspired by.
I don't want to make this post any longer, so I'll wrap it up here. I really hope Intrepid/Steven reconsider their current plans of level cap increases and adopt a smarter system inspired by the successes of the other three games above. It's going to fit so much better with the node system and the lack of level-based zones in Ashes.
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Comments
Chances are, that Sir Steven and his Team might still think about it, during the Time of Ashes' Release - and the Possibility of whole Expansions as Content at some time in the Future.
I think the main system that should be utilized is Nodes. Add pve systems that highly depend on node setups. This would encourage people to siege stuff and rearrange nodes setups, because they'd want to experience new content.
Quest hooks that require several nodes to be at certain lvls. Boss spawns that require certain dungeon entrances, which open up only after a certain node lvls up. Artisanry stuff that requires new metros in certain regions. Etc, etc, etc.
I'd hope/assume that this is already the case and is planned waaaay ahead, but just in case it isn't - I really think this would be a great way to keep the pvp lvls fairly high, while also making that pvp pve-driven.
Believe leveling should experience diminishing returns. Making it possible to continuously level indefinitely, but with the rewards/effects being more and more limited. That way you don’t really need a cap. Or that the “higher” level stuff/rewards don’t overpower but provide “cool” stuff. Therefore it should not make the content less significant. In fact, if done well the existing content could be enhanced.
Also, given they’ll likely have limited character slots, should you be able to experience different archetypes once you reach “max” level that you can swap out for times you want your “main” to play for an event, while enjoying other content experiences? Would be an alternative to grinding for some sort of achievement points. Ideally once you reach “max” level the adventure shouldn’t end. Maybe that’s where the full content opens up and goes on and on indefinitely.
The interplay between the node systems and player interaction has the potential to keep the game entertaining without a lot of new "content". Even with maxed characters there are lots of things to do.
I'd imagine a lot of their ongoing content could be new commissions and secret side quests and story arc triggers to world states, etc. Big economic strategy patches, node seige and defense mechanisms. Basically expanding on their existing systems with content that makes sense to the player base.
The game doesn't have to be the same 6 months after launch as it was at launch, let alone 2 years after launch. The "Time to level 50" could change based on player feedback as the game matures. Every system they have is another set of parameters to tweak, and they have a lot of systems.
I enjoyed GW2's mastery system, but just remember they countered power creep by level scaling the player to the zone they are in. The next expansion zones were balanced according to the players new powers while the old zones were kept viable by level scaling.
With no scaling in Ashes, old content will still be trivialized by new powers. Same as they would be with new levels.
I do really like the idea of sideways progression, however. Maybe just add a far greater variety of powers with expansions instead of just stronger ones.
Or maybe do sideways progression or just added content for an expantion or two in between lvl cap raises, to slow down the pace over the years.
In my opinion...
1; the content in Ashes will most likely need to be procedurally generated as opposed to hand crafted. The world would need to be populated potentially dozens of times if they intended to do it by hand - this would see the game release sometime in the mid 2030's.
Since it is likely to be procedurally generated, it shouldn't be hard to factor in potential future level cap increases.
This would mean that Ashes is probably the easiest game ever made to add content for a level cap increase.
2; content should become obsolete. If we are running any content at all for a year, why are we even paying a subscription?
3; every single game that I have ever played that has increased the level cap has set a standard amount of time it should take to hit max level from a new character. In games that start at level 50, the time to the level cap is roughly the same as that same game when the cap is eventually increased to level 100.
Expansion Example A: The Greater Underrealm
Moving beneath the Earth is tough on the body of someone who is not adpated to it. The air can become hard to breath, the closed spaces, ominous rumbling and lack of (sun)light can wreck the mind...
A character from the "Upper Realms" would therefore be debuffed in their stats, their field of vision limited and susceptible to enemy attacks (the aggro radius for mobs is increased) when they first venture into these unfamiliar deeps. From there, they are slowly rebuilding their strength as they progress through this new terrain through potions, blessings, devices, enchantments and time.
> This way you can go back to the surface and - unimpaired by the unfamiliar environmental conditions - still be a very strong character, while the gap of strength between levels in the Greater Underrealm is closed if a lower character has spent more time and effort to explore there. Additionally it creates an incentive for new characters to go there first which stirs up the power dynamic a bit.
Expansion Example B: The Drained Planes
Just invading Verra directly has not succeeded, but like they did in the past, the Ancients figured that the people of Verra would struggle greatly if their precious Essence would be all but gone. As such the Ancients merged part of an desolate land to Verra to slowly drain it off the Essence and eventually redirect the Rivers of Essence to the Drained Planes where an army of corrupted beings waits to be nurished for the next invasion...
For such an expansion it might be interesting to mess with the consumption and regeneration of Mana. In the Drained Planes abilities would require much more mana to use, cooldowns would be increased and mana regeneration would be severly slowed. (Sidenote: New characters come from Sanctus, where there is no magic either, so the restrictions that make the Drained Planes tough for max level character would probably be less taxing on them - again creating an interesting shift in the power dynamic)
> That would on the one hand sharpen max level players decision making as they first enter these new lands, artisans could come up with devices that store Essence which can then be used to build and maintain Nodes in the Drained Planes, while expeditions seek to understand the threat of the Ancients here and explore how the local fauna survived with the little Essence they had at their disposal. The latter could lead to us player recovering our mana pool to a greater deal eventually granting us either overall reduced mana consumption, higher regeneration or more powerful abilities.
Unique resource
It is not really surprising that vastly different worlds would hold vastly different resources and if these resources like corrupted resources are set to offere unique perks, the economic importance of these "other planes" would become immediately important not only for exploration, questing and the lore, but also for artisans and merchants, who with these goods then fuel the power struggle in Verra. If the best anti-magic resources can only be found on the Drained Planes and the best resistances against physical damage are unique to the Greater Underrealm, that makes them relevant for players who have no real interest in these places from the perspective of story.
So what the point?
By leting the lore dictate the appearance of the progression system, I think the game will achieve a much better feeling overall especially for newer players who join 2 expansions in; because to them a "Master Rank", champion points or Realm Levels on top of max level will definitely sound like just stretching the progress process without increasing the level cap. I think the "adaption progression method" will make more sense to players, feel a bit more "natural" so to speak.
But yes, 100% agree, just adding new levels would not be cool at all and throw off a lot of things for little benefit
I dont see how this is possible for a lot of the content. They can't procedurally generate side quests or story arcs. The devs have to create those and then put in the random conditions for them to be triggered by the players. And those are going to be unique to each node. That minotaur questline is likely only happening in 1 node.
This is why i see them releasing a base game with a certain number of commissions / side quests / story arcs, and then adding more as the game goes on. By release they will have a large dev team that is experienced in making content for ashes and just need to add more content to keep the game fresh for players.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
I would assume the first few months will be bug-fixing and balancing, but this is what we currently know: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Expansions
Yeah they are going to have to add more difficult content if they do vertical progression for sure, whether it's by increasing levels or a mastery system or something, and I am not a fan of the level scaling. At least not for Ashes.
Outside of the catacomb system perhaps, I don't really think they are going to do a lot of procedural stuff. At least not without hand-editing it after.
And I'll have to disagree about content that should go obsolete. I would prefer if it doesn't, but is still regarded as important for new characters. Not at the expense of new stuff, but in addition to it.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
Yes! All of this! @StevenSharif @Vaknar please steal these ideas. Include going to the Harbinger Moon and perhaps a serverwide quest/story arc to open the portal and get the magic in place to survive there, and then some sort of attunement quest for every character.
All with the caveat that I still think the nodes should be front and center, and that people shouldn't just stay in the new areas, but are forced/incentivized to come back to the nodes and the "old world" on the regular.
For example, using the drained planes idea, we could have pockets around the existing nodes with that effect, where players have to fight back against it spreading further. Like corruption, but different. Start with a commission leading the players there, and then a quest or even a story arc on location.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
yes, at the timestamp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS3e0vuj5lA&t=1317s
I'd have to see more of how the game actually works since it moved 'away' from some stuff originally said.
(for example I originally thought that Open Seas content was going to be where a lot of the Level Cap raise stuff happened)
I've seen it done poorly, I've seen it done well, so...
I always liked how Destiny 2 did expansions. If I don't play the game, level up, earn experience and try to play the game in proper storyline order, I simply can't progress into the latest planets to explore and do quests in. It forced me to "git gud". BUT, I can also see the negative side of that, because what's the point of advertising content from a marketing side that is locked away until X player has played 100+ hours.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
You don't even need to play these games, just look at attribute modifiers and and the difference in gear on the wikis and you'll see what I mean
One of the main points in a mmorpg is growth something players gain overtime through doing content increasing their power. Optimizing their builds and other elements lets them push further but eventually that wall becomes more difficult to pass in power. But through the introduction of new content expansion wise and other wise your power is going to increase (im not talking about from leveling). Their content they add generally is going to be more difficult and will usual give better gear for the difficulty. That means its very akin to players gaining increased leveling to begin with do to more power increases over time having the exact same effect.
This is not saying every expansion needs a level increase by the way, in relation to the following comment.
After some expansions and updates maybe around 1.5-2.5 years after launch they add a new expansion that increases level cap. That is actually health for all players in the game do to the growth you have been given from previous expansions and high end gear optimization.
I say this because you have the high end players - low end players (when I say low end I don't mean under leveled etc) at different points and strengths. When new content is made high end characters might find most of it easy expect maybe a few pieces of content do to where their power is at. Or if content is mainly only aimed at the strongest players it means the lower end + ones eventually will get towards it do it and get much larger power boost quickly making the rest of the content to them easier.
Leveling helps reset, yes you have to do things again (you can make this kind of leveling much longer) but it helps reset the challenge of being over geared for content and allows content to be created equally for all players. On top of the dynamic world adding tot hat element of regearing forward towards your next challenges.
At this point in the game it should be catching people up to the new content (that doesn't mean instant / extreme fast leveling) But some increased leveling speed is required with the expectation of new life (players) into the game. Which can be balanced out with the new levels taking much longer, and perhaps added a different element of challenge and danger around those levels (only certain elements of content give you xp, on death xp loss is increased even further, etc).
Of course you can literarily take the leveling and do it differently where it doesn't give you power or you call it Master levels, etc. But like i said earlier nothing changes as when you gain power the rest of the content will become weaker regardless it is the exact same effect as leveling.
To the point its extra work to increase leveling of content, even more so in AoC. Yes it would be much more work, and this is not the monthly kind of expansion you would see but it be effort imo that is worth it. Hyping it up as a big changing expansion and injecting new life into the player base to sustain it. Allowing people to be on a even playing field and not fee I've not played for 2.5 years so pvp wise there is no point me ever playing.
Overall i feel it is a positive for everyone, so long as its done right for increased levels on very major expansions.
This kind of goes into my point above but this is a good way to focus on a point i feel is weaker. Since you talk about WoW having you skip over content and you feel it should be the more you play the stronger you get.
So if power is about playing a lot, what is stopping you when you played a lot to just destroying all new content easily. At what point is it ok for all older content to also be out dated since you just one tap everything with your weakest skills?
I also feel DoAC and WoW are not really comparable in terms of content and how it gives it to players. WoW is a more pvE focused game where Doac does not focus on that or the issues in relation to that kind of growth as it is focused on pvp and not pve growth..
Edit* Constant expansion with level caps I'd agree would be too much and i don't see AoC taking a WoW route do to different types of games.
It was a sense of achievement even if it was just +3 to a stat. These real ranks took years to achieve high levels for reference.
https://youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn
Nope my friends played it though was one of their main games age ago, so i don't know it in detail just some things.
My main point is from growth you are going to make content obsolete regardless it is the same effect as leveling. In games with more PvP focus you see less growth needed since they don't really focus on adding good pve content and the main content comes from PvP. So there isn't as much reason to really reset things.
Though since AoC is planning to inbetween it should be a mix between the pvp and pve elements of growth.