If the economy can be held together without players wanting better gear, what would the economy look like at the point in the game where everyone IS trying to get better gear?
I keep forgetting, did EQ2/AA have gear decay/repairs? I think they didn't have destruction on OE either, right?
They both had repairs that were gold based.
If both of those things remain in Ashes - that's your perpetual economic machine. People will constantly need to farm stuff to fix their things and those who decide to risk OEing things to get even more power will need even more mats cause sooner or later they'll destroy their things (and/or will have needed more mats for a backup).
See, the repair part of this doesn't work.
The reason for this is simple - item repairs exist before players get to the point where they are no longer able to acquire better gear.
In order for there to be a way to keep the economy going, there needs to be something else as economicially stimulating as gear construction is - but that doesn't start until after players decide they have good enough gear. At that point, why are you changing things up when most players are quite happy with acquiring new, better gear?
Over enchanting is more functioning as new tiers of gear - as you are gaining actual better gear. This will act as a sorce of some economic movement for a while after many players have stopped replacing items with better ones - but even this will die out fairly quickly.
The reason for this is simple - item repairs exist before players get to the point where they are no longer able to acquire better gear.
In order for there to be a way to keep the economy going, there needs to be something else as economicially stimulating as gear construction is - but that doesn't start until after players decide they have good enough gear. At that point, why are you changing things up when most players are quite happy with acquiring new, better gear?
I think you're operating under the assumption that new gear acquisition will be faster than the requirement to fix your current stuff appears. I don't think we've seen any indication of the system going either way, so it's difficult to say if this will be true or not, but I'd imagine it'd be quite silly for Intrepid to have a repair system based on gear mats if this system was only required at max lvl. Which is why I think that repairs will be needed all throughout the leveling/gearing process.
Over enchanting is more functioning as new tiers of gear - as you are gaining actual better gear. This will act as a sorce of some economic movement for a while after many players have stopped replacing items with better ones - but even this will die out fairly quickly.
From my experience, you highly underestimate the sheer drive people have for that "additional 0.5% of power" (let alone more, if that's what a +1 gives).
And if the overall system is set up in a good way, even a single destruction of a max lvl piece of gear would pull up several stages of economical process (or at least would need those stages to be operating at all times).
OEing also greatly helps those who can't afford max lvl gear, for whatever reason. I've seen countless lower tier items that were considered better than higher tier ones, simply because they were OEd fairly high. And that OE process included A TON of economical movement.
And that was in L2, whose overall economy is way more simplistic than what Ashes wants to have.
From my experience, you highly underestimate the sheer drive people have for that "additional 0.5% of power" (let alone more, if that's what a +1 gives).
I don't think I am.
In Archeage, the regrade system produced a server wide message for every successful regrade over a specific grade. Since I was running a parser, and since you could remain logged on in that game for the entire week between server maintenance, I had a fairly exact understanding of how many people were going after that last 0.5%.
Since the chances for each regrade were known, I was also able to work out with some reasonable accuracy how much economic activity those regrade attempts involved.
I made my comments with this actual, solid data of player activity in a somewhat recent MMORPG with a similar system to what we are talking about in mind.
Yeah, some people will spend a lot on over enchanting. Most people won't.
The games economy is supremely important here. The bulk of the economy will be based around character gear. If there is no new gear added to the game, the games economy will grind to a halt.
Another "potentially" large economic sink will be nodes and node mechanics (seige weapons, defenses, etc.). It is entirely possible that Ashes adds content around how nodes work while leaving character gear static for a long time.
But your point is pretty valid. As the player base levels up there is less demand for low level crafting. As they start hitting max and then maxing out their gear there will be less demand for max level crafting, and at some point those crafters just won't have as many buyers.
Maybe the "repair" idea acts as a way to keep the professions relevant, but it is it a fun game play loop? I mean, getting something "new" and "better" hits the dopamine spot a little more than something breaking down and neutering your character until you repair it.
I still think that at some point they will have an expansion that at least boosts the top end of professions so they have new things to make and get excited about.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Losing power relative to the new max power level attainable is an uncontroversial basic fact. All other things being equal, a lvl 60 is stronger than a lvl 50 in WoW, for example, so on day 1 of the expansion you are at 80%. max power instead of the 100% the day before. It's also not the main thrust of the argument I make in the OP at all.
It’s not a fact.
It’s a flawed perception similar to believing the Sun circles the Earth or that the Earth is the center of the universe.
Factually -objectively- there is no loss of power.
[quote="Nerror;c-446704" How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.[/quote]
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Losing power relative to the new max power level attainable is an uncontroversial basic fact. All other things being equal, a lvl 60 is stronger than a lvl 50 in WoW, for example, so on day 1 of the expansion you are at 80%. max power instead of the 100% the day before. It's also not the main thrust of the argument I make in the OP at all.
It’s not a fact.
It’s a flawed perception similar to believing the Sun circles the Earth or that the Earth is the center of the universe.
Factually -objectively- there is no loss of power.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Are you ok Dygz? Do you really not understand the word relative? 50 is not equal to 60. 80% is not equal to 100%. The argument isn't about you being able to kill the same mobs with the same ease the day after the expansion. The only flawed perception here is your perception of what the argument is.
And yeah, both level cap increases and equalizing everything for new and old players with new levels are design preferences. They aren't rules. They aren't set and defined standards for RPGs clearly. They can be discussed, which is what this thread is about.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Everyone high-geared is a Gangster, until the new Expansion shows up ... ...
This depends on how you got the gear.
If you earned it, you still are.
You think you are but you are more like a person bragging about old war stories or talking about how cool you used to be. Your achievements mean nothing now and no one cares about what you used to be.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
Everyone high-geared is a Gangster, until the new Expansion shows up ... ...
This depends on how you got the gear.
If you earned it, you still are.
You think you are but you are more like a person bragging about old war stories or talking about how cool you used to be. Your achievements mean nothing now and no one cares about what you used to be.
I mean, first hand experience tells me that if I am in a top guild, killing top end content - first - when a new expansion with new content comes along, im still in that same guild, and we are very likely to kill that new content first.
If someone says they are in a top guild and are talking shit when new content drops rather than killing that new content, they really aren't in a top guild.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
What you say would be true if AoC would be a traditional PvE game, but is not.
It's content is linked to nodes and must happen on the ZoI of nodes or in the deep ocean, which may or may not be covered by nodes ZoI.
We seen recently streams which showed us how the ZoI changes when the node levels up.
So the player experience changes anyway, when nodes fall and other nodes rise.
If you want to have the same experience each time a node levels up, it might happen only if that node has the same type and is dominated by the same race and IS made only one possibility content wise for that node ZoI type...
... which very likely will be the case given that we wait for this game since 7 years already and they have to enter Alpha 2 and then release the game.
What happens 1.5 years after release will be more clear somewhat later, hopefully in near future. Is not even worth asking in the monthly Q&A before Alpha 2 starts.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
What you say would be true if AoC would be a traditional PvE game, but is not.
It's content is linked to nodes and must happen on the ZoI of nodes or in the deep ocean, which may or may not be covered by nodes ZoI.
We seen recently streams which showed us how the ZoI changes when the node levels up.
So the player experience changes anyway, when nodes fall and other nodes rise.
If you want to have the same experience each time a node levels up, it might happen only if that node has the same type and is dominated by the same race and IS made only one possibility content wise for that node ZoI type...
... which very likely will be the case given that we wait for this game since 7 years already and they have to enter Alpha 2 and then release the game.
What happens 1.5 years after release will be more clear somewhat later, hopefully in near future. Is not even worth asking in the monthly Q&A before Alpha 2 starts.
It is not really traditional, what successful mmorpg has not added more areas to it of any varying types. In AoC it would be adding more nodes to the new area / areas in how ever they would do it in its own style. if they want something they will make it work in relation to nodes.
Which clearly if they SAY they can do it they can do it lol. And like i was saying they can still my current areas relevant and they also say that.
Are you ok Dygz? Do you really not understand the word relative? 50 is not equal to 60. 80% is not equal to 100%. The argument isn't about you being able to kill the same mobs with the same ease the day after the expansion. The only flawed perception here is your perception of what the argument is.
And yeah, both level cap increases and equalizing everything for new and old players with new levels are design preferences. They aren't rules. They aren't set and defined standards for RPGs clearly. They can be discussed, which is what this thread is about.
Relative is irrelevant.
Again... it's like saying "relative to the viewpoint from Earth, the Earth is the center of the universe."
If you are making decisions because you believe you become weaker with an expansion - you are not OK.
It's like expecting doctors to accomodate your wishes because you believe that storks deliver babies.
Are you ok Dygz? Do you really not understand the word relative? 50 is not equal to 60. 80% is not equal to 100%. The argument isn't about you being able to kill the same mobs with the same ease the day after the expansion. The only flawed perception here is your perception of what the argument is.
And yeah, both level cap increases and equalizing everything for new and old players with new levels are design preferences. They aren't rules. They aren't set and defined standards for RPGs clearly. They can be discussed, which is what this thread is about.
Relative is irrelevant.
Again... it's like saying "relative to the viewpoint from Earth, the Earth is the center of the universe."
But - the Earth IS the center of the observable universe.
Truthfully though, your characters relative power only matters if you look outward. If all you are doing is looking in, then you don't care about your characters power in relation to mobs. Someone more focused on RP than on combat based content probably doesn't care to look outward in this manner, and that's fine.
On the other hand, if you are someone that bases their gameplay around combat based content, your characters power only matters as it is relevant to other players and to content.
As someone that is more focused on content and killing, my only measure of my characters power that I pay attention to is how far off being able to kill the hardest encounter in the game I am, and/ or how far off the most powerful character on the server I am (or how far in front of the second most powerful I am, on the very eared occasion when I am most powerful on the server).
Thus, to me, when a new piece of content drops with a new encounter that is harder than anything previous - that is a drop in my characters power from the only perspective I care about.
You may have a different perspective, and that's fine. Doesn't mean either are wrong.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
What you say would be true if AoC would be a traditional PvE game, but is not.
It's content is linked to nodes and must happen on the ZoI of nodes or in the deep ocean, which may or may not be covered by nodes ZoI.
We seen recently streams which showed us how the ZoI changes when the node levels up.
So the player experience changes anyway, when nodes fall and other nodes rise.
If you want to have the same experience each time a node levels up, it might happen only if that node has the same type and is dominated by the same race and IS made only one possibility content wise for that node ZoI type...
... which very likely will be the case given that we wait for this game since 7 years already and they have to enter Alpha 2 and then release the game.
What happens 1.5 years after release will be more clear somewhat later, hopefully in near future. Is not even worth asking in the monthly Q&A before Alpha 2 starts.
It is not really traditional, what successful mmorpg has not added more areas to it of any varying types. In AoC it would be adding more nodes to the new area / areas in how ever they would do it in its own style. if they want something they will make it work in relation to nodes.
Which clearly if they SAY they can do it they can do it lol. And like i was saying they can still my current areas relevant and they also say that.
Adding more nodes just to add new zones cannot work at large scale for players populating 85 nodes in a game like AoC where you have no Cross-realm zones and Sharding.
They'll have enough problems merging servers when players leave.
Bringing some players back temporarily and increasing map size will not be a good idea.
Steven was giving answers fast during that interview but he will have to face reality after the game is released.
And he will chose the easier solution, to reshape the land where these 85 nodes already exist, in a different way when nodes go back to lvl 1.
I see no reason to keep the map static when they promote the idea that AoC has no End Game because everything is changing constantly.
Roads will change: "Different seasons and events may affect access to various roads.[7][8][9][10]"
Dungeons will change: "The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system."
So making even bigger changes more frequently to single nodes at a time will be an advantage as it will prevent players to become bored and leave the game in the first place.
How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
===
Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
====]
When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
What you say would be true if AoC would be a traditional PvE game, but is not.
It's content is linked to nodes and must happen on the ZoI of nodes or in the deep ocean, which may or may not be covered by nodes ZoI.
We seen recently streams which showed us how the ZoI changes when the node levels up.
So the player experience changes anyway, when nodes fall and other nodes rise.
If you want to have the same experience each time a node levels up, it might happen only if that node has the same type and is dominated by the same race and IS made only one possibility content wise for that node ZoI type...
... which very likely will be the case given that we wait for this game since 7 years already and they have to enter Alpha 2 and then release the game.
What happens 1.5 years after release will be more clear somewhat later, hopefully in near future. Is not even worth asking in the monthly Q&A before Alpha 2 starts.
It is not really traditional, what successful mmorpg has not added more areas to it of any varying types. In AoC it would be adding more nodes to the new area / areas in how ever they would do it in its own style. if they want something they will make it work in relation to nodes.
Which clearly if they SAY they can do it they can do it lol. And like i was saying they can still my current areas relevant and they also say that.
Adding more nodes just to add new zones cannot work at large scale for players populating 85 nodes in a game like AoC where you have no Cross-realm zones and Sharding.
They'll have enough problems merging servers when players leave.
Bringing some players back temporarily and increasing map size will not be a good idea.
Steven was giving answers fast during that interview but he will have to face reality after the game is released.
And he will chose the easier solution, to reshape the land where these 85 nodes already exist, in a different way when nodes go back to lvl 1.
I see no reason to keep the map static when they promote the idea that AoC has no End Game because everything is changing constantly.
Roads will change: "Different seasons and events may affect access to various roads.[7][8][9][10]"
Dungeons will change: "The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system."
So making even bigger changes more frequently to single nodes at a time will be an advantage as it will prevent players to become bored and leave the game in the first place.
You are making some pretty big statements saying he will and not giving weight to the own answers he gave.
Not really going to get into a argument on you saying he doesn't mean what he says or its wrong. Devs are most likely not even thinking about expansions right now anyway. I'll take them at their brief current plans for expansions until they say other wise.
Already made my points on level increases and zones being added as something easy for them to do for major expansions. Guess we will see what they do when we have a game to play years down the line after it has released.
Comments
The reason for this is simple - item repairs exist before players get to the point where they are no longer able to acquire better gear.
In order for there to be a way to keep the economy going, there needs to be something else as economicially stimulating as gear construction is - but that doesn't start until after players decide they have good enough gear. At that point, why are you changing things up when most players are quite happy with acquiring new, better gear?
Over enchanting is more functioning as new tiers of gear - as you are gaining actual better gear. This will act as a sorce of some economic movement for a while after many players have stopped replacing items with better ones - but even this will die out fairly quickly.
From my experience, you highly underestimate the sheer drive people have for that "additional 0.5% of power" (let alone more, if that's what a +1 gives).
And if the overall system is set up in a good way, even a single destruction of a max lvl piece of gear would pull up several stages of economical process (or at least would need those stages to be operating at all times).
OEing also greatly helps those who can't afford max lvl gear, for whatever reason. I've seen countless lower tier items that were considered better than higher tier ones, simply because they were OEd fairly high. And that OE process included A TON of economical movement.
And that was in L2, whose overall economy is way more simplistic than what Ashes wants to have.
Regardless of which one is more economically active, the suggestion in this thread still sees us going from using both to using only one.
I don't think I am.
In Archeage, the regrade system produced a server wide message for every successful regrade over a specific grade. Since I was running a parser, and since you could remain logged on in that game for the entire week between server maintenance, I had a fairly exact understanding of how many people were going after that last 0.5%.
Since the chances for each regrade were known, I was also able to work out with some reasonable accuracy how much economic activity those regrade attempts involved.
I made my comments with this actual, solid data of player activity in a somewhat recent MMORPG with a similar system to what we are talking about in mind.
Yeah, some people will spend a lot on over enchanting. Most people won't.
Another "potentially" large economic sink will be nodes and node mechanics (seige weapons, defenses, etc.). It is entirely possible that Ashes adds content around how nodes work while leaving character gear static for a long time.
But your point is pretty valid. As the player base levels up there is less demand for low level crafting. As they start hitting max and then maxing out their gear there will be less demand for max level crafting, and at some point those crafters just won't have as many buyers.
Maybe the "repair" idea acts as a way to keep the professions relevant, but it is it a fun game play loop? I mean, getting something "new" and "better" hits the dopamine spot a little more than something breaking down and neutering your character until you repair it.
I still think that at some point they will have an expansion that at least boosts the top end of professions so they have new things to make and get excited about.
It’s a flawed perception similar to believing the Sun circles the Earth or that the Earth is the center of the universe.
Factually -objectively- there is no loss of power.
[quote="Nerror;c-446704" How the new levels equalize everything for new and old players is part of the problem though, and is an argument worth having.[/quote]
It’s not really an argument worth having.
It’s just a game design preference.
New vertical Level Cap with an expansion is standard RPG game design.
How frequently that happens is kinda debatable… maybe.
But… a lot of that will depend upon the devs’ game design philosophy.
Are you ok Dygz? Do you really not understand the word relative? 50 is not equal to 60. 80% is not equal to 100%. The argument isn't about you being able to kill the same mobs with the same ease the day after the expansion. The only flawed perception here is your perception of what the argument is.
And yeah, both level cap increases and equalizing everything for new and old players with new levels are design preferences. They aren't rules. They aren't set and defined standards for RPGs clearly. They can be discussed, which is what this thread is about.
Standard RPG because character level is linked to the progression.
Then comes out the RPG game 2 and the main character conveniently lost his memories and skills and must learn all again, unlock memories...
But then come the MMO version of these RPGs where some players keep the game alive while others return and they really lost memory of what each half piece item in their bank inventory was for, until they look on wiki.
The problem is when the progression through leveling is not perceived as a reward, especially by players who keep playing.
If active players would see character leveling as a reward, then we could have infinite leveling system.
AoC put progression into the character development.
Because nodes fall, even players who keep playing will feel some regression.
Players who come back after 6-12 months only to play some expansion, could find their armor rusty and in need of resources to repair. They'll have to find a node where to live and start increasing reputation in that node to get access to NPCs.
Expansions in AoC could just focus on reshaping the land, replacing story and announcing cataclysmic events which cause some damage to all nodes on the map. Players who invest time to maintain a node in good shape would survive intact while others would lose some buildings or could even be completely destroyed.
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Why players who expect to level up a little bit in a new expansion left?
Because they could not level anymore? Maybe sieges will solve this in AoC.
Again we are talking about around 1.5+ years after release. This ides that potentially years after release there is no new land masses added as content if the game is successful is kind of silly.
If you are making a point on "reshaping" and them removing all content ties to certain landmasses int he game and recreating everything. That is still a new landmass you are just removing other content from the game akin to destiny 2.
For me a successful mmo is one where player population stays constant after the initial hype is over and can sustain development.
For AoC we need a certain player density to have the game function properly.
If you add new maps or new continents, you will decrease the density.
It is better to rotate content and that will happen anyway, depending which nodes become metropolis. Variations will depend also on what race controls them:
Quotes from wiki:
[====
POIs of this size do not normally attach to just a single node. Usually there are multiple nodes that can potentially influence a large POI. The theming within the node occurs around storylines or NPC spawns and events.[14] – Steven Sharif
The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… [...] [73]
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When I think to expansions, other mmos bring new maps and new story.
And here in AoC I see that possibility when nodes rise again after sieges.
Therefore the player max level does not need to change because character power fluctuates all the time a little bit as we move to other nodes and they level up.
This depends on how you got the gear.
If you earned it, you still are.
You think you are but you are more like a person bragging about old war stories or talking about how cool you used to be. Your achievements mean nothing now and no one cares about what you used to be.
Again if we are talking about rotating maps (which i have no issue with depending how it is done) this is more destiny like where new maps are being created and you are removing some content from the game.
So your worry isn't about adding new places it is about player density. Which also could feel like you need more places by the way with things feeling to dense, who knows. We still need to play and judge it as everyone is on on shard with very little instances.
My statement is that adding new places will cause lower player density on server because the total area increases and servers are not interconnected. Players would move to new areas and the old ones remain deserted.
But is not really a "worry". You used that word. From my side was a statement that it will not happen.
They will just transform terrain and maybe in the deep ocean different islands could rise, if they add such a feature there.
Also my statement is that level cap will not change because is not needed.
The way how AoC is designed, leveling the character itself is not meant to be the main way of enjoying the game. Leveling to 50 will be very fast, in like 1-2 months. Players are supposed to pay subscription of other kind of leveling (gear, nodes, reputation, crafting...)
Somewhere at the beginning of the thread I also said that a level cap increase by 10 once is not harmful and I consider that true. If they make it 50 at release and becomes 60 1.5 years later is like no change at all.
But only if we talk about main character level.
They can increase the level cap for other skills like crafting. I wouldn't mind about that.
Or to add new skills into the game. New weapons, or a new race or class. Monk maybe.
All these can have leveling and even a long leveling duration.
I hope is more clear now what I try to say.
I mean, first hand experience tells me that if I am in a top guild, killing top end content - first - when a new expansion with new content comes along, im still in that same guild, and we are very likely to kill that new content first.
If someone says they are in a top guild and are talking shit when new content drops rather than killing that new content, they really aren't in a top guild.
I understand your concerns about adding new areas potentially leading to lower player density in existing zones. However, suggesting alterations to the map to maintain balance effectively advocates for the addition of new areas while removing others, which could disrupt the game's continuity and player experience.
Also you are envisioning MMOs like World of Warcraft, where the introduction of new zones often shifts player focus away from older ones. However, it's essential to recognize that developers can revitalize existing areas to keep them relevant, thus preserving the world's integrity while adding new content.
Now onto levels again since you are overlooking the fundamental nature of PvE content in MMOs...... Vertical progression is intrinsic to providing challenging gameplay and sustaining player engagement over time. Without it, content may become stale for seasoned players, diminishing the incentive to continue playing.
Vertical progression not only provides a natural path for character growth but also ensures that content remains challenging and engaging for all players, regardless of their experience level. Pouring all that effort into adding new areas feels wasted if geared players can just breeze through them easily.
Moreover, expansions that introduce vertical power increases through gear or other means will inevitably render older gear obsolete. While resisting level increases may preserve the value of existing gear temporarily, it does not address the eventual need for players to upgrade their equipment to tackle new content effectively, again unless you are removing vertical progression which I doubt AoC will be doing.
What you say would be true if AoC would be a traditional PvE game, but is not.
It's content is linked to nodes and must happen on the ZoI of nodes or in the deep ocean, which may or may not be covered by nodes ZoI.
We seen recently streams which showed us how the ZoI changes when the node levels up.
So the player experience changes anyway, when nodes fall and other nodes rise.
If you want to have the same experience each time a node levels up, it might happen only if that node has the same type and is dominated by the same race and IS made only one possibility content wise for that node ZoI type...
... which very likely will be the case given that we wait for this game since 7 years already and they have to enter Alpha 2 and then release the game.
What happens 1.5 years after release will be more clear somewhat later, hopefully in near future. Is not even worth asking in the monthly Q&A before Alpha 2 starts.
It is not really traditional, what successful mmorpg has not added more areas to it of any varying types. In AoC it would be adding more nodes to the new area / areas in how ever they would do it in its own style. if they want something they will make it work in relation to nodes.
Which clearly if they SAY they can do it they can do it lol. And like i was saying they can still my current areas relevant and they also say that.
Again... it's like saying "relative to the viewpoint from Earth, the Earth is the center of the universe."
If you are making decisions because you believe you become weaker with an expansion - you are not OK.
It's like expecting doctors to accomodate your wishes because you believe that storks deliver babies.
But - the Earth IS the center of the observable universe.
Truthfully though, your characters relative power only matters if you look outward. If all you are doing is looking in, then you don't care about your characters power in relation to mobs. Someone more focused on RP than on combat based content probably doesn't care to look outward in this manner, and that's fine.
On the other hand, if you are someone that bases their gameplay around combat based content, your characters power only matters as it is relevant to other players and to content.
As someone that is more focused on content and killing, my only measure of my characters power that I pay attention to is how far off being able to kill the hardest encounter in the game I am, and/ or how far off the most powerful character on the server I am (or how far in front of the second most powerful I am, on the very eared occasion when I am most powerful on the server).
Thus, to me, when a new piece of content drops with a new encounter that is harder than anything previous - that is a drop in my characters power from the only perspective I care about.
You may have a different perspective, and that's fine. Doesn't mean either are wrong.
Adding more nodes just to add new zones cannot work at large scale for players populating 85 nodes in a game like AoC where you have no Cross-realm zones and Sharding.
They'll have enough problems merging servers when players leave.
Bringing some players back temporarily and increasing map size will not be a good idea.
Steven was giving answers fast during that interview but he will have to face reality after the game is released.
And he will chose the easier solution, to reshape the land where these 85 nodes already exist, in a different way when nodes go back to lvl 1.
I see no reason to keep the map static when they promote the idea that AoC has no End Game because everything is changing constantly.
Roads will change: "Different seasons and events may affect access to various roads.[7][8][9][10]"
Dungeons will change: "The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system."
So making even bigger changes more frequently to single nodes at a time will be an advantage as it will prevent players to become bored and leave the game in the first place.
You are making some pretty big statements saying he will and not giving weight to the own answers he gave.
Not really going to get into a argument on you saying he doesn't mean what he says or its wrong. Devs are most likely not even thinking about expansions right now anyway. I'll take them at their brief current plans for expansions until they say other wise.
Already made my points on level increases and zones being added as something easy for them to do for major expansions. Guess we will see what they do when we have a game to play years down the line after it has released.