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Hypothesis confirmed, The real reason why PvE players don't like PvX for AoC, EUREKA !!

MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
edited March 19 in General Discussion
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Since some time ago I was trying to get the truthful information about "why a large majority of PvE players do NOT like the idea of a PvX for AoC". I tried several times, with several comments, ideas, memes and things that made them discuss about it but nothing gave me the result that was needed, until yesterday.

To get such a pure information , so personal and so intrinsic in the style of playing a MMORPG you have to let things flow at their own pace , do not force the answer but rather let the answer flow by itself and let the same PvE players who complain about the future PvX give the answer for themselves with their own words.
The vast majority of PvE players have the wrong idea of what PvX is in AoC.
They need to be educated, they need clear information so that they themselves realize that PvX is a great help to them.
We should not leave our carebears brothers alone, they are very necessary for the growth of AoC.

Adopt a carebear and educate them
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Comments

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    FlankerFlanker Member
    It amuses me that some people come to PvX game with open world PvP and demand to make it PvE while also breaking the core pillars of the game, in-game systems and mechanics. Am I missing something or there is a very obvious solution to find a PvE game and play it?
    n8ohfjz3mtqg.png
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I'm assuming the OP just wrote that themselves to prove a point they wanted to prove.
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    FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Many PvE players don't like the idea of forced PvP, nothing to do with PvX.

    And of course they will never create separate PvE ruleset servers. Not only does it go against Steven's vision but it would cause the original ruleset servers to die.
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    It's THAT easy ... ...



    The World of Verra - can NOT function - without PvP. - right ?

    The Caravans,
    The Nodes and their Sieges,
    Piracy/Naval Battles on the Seas,

    how is all that supposed to function without PvP ?
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    28tgfps5285a.jpg
    The girl watched the last of the creatures die and murmured a soft 'Thank you' to her rescuer.

    The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.

    'We have to move. It's not safe here.'
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    AszkalonAszkalon Member
    edited March 20
    AnimusRex wrote: »
    28tgfps5285a.jpg


    " W~ell ... ... ... ^.^;" ... ... ... "



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    KilionKilion Member
    People who think that the Ashes gameplay loop will work if PKing goes unpunished or PvP is 100% opt in, do not seem to understand that critical systems of the game REQUIRE PvP to happen on occasion without consent as well as the option for those unwilling to participate in PvP to punish the attackers.

    These two extremes are balancing weights to each other, but demanding to take either one off the scales is asking for a different type of base system which runs counter to the core idea of Ashes. Which is why - as annoyed as some may be by that sentence - leads to the conclusion that "Ashes just might not be for you."
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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    Flanker wrote: »
    It amuses me that some people come to PvX game with open world PvP and demand to make it PvE while also breaking the core pillars of the game, in-game systems and mechanics. Am I missing something or there is a very obvious solution to find a PvE game and play it?

    It sounds like Steven wants to put in pretty harsh penalties for people who kill others, without being in some sort of war with them.
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    Aszkalon wrote: »
    It's THAT easy ... ...



    The World of Verra - can NOT function - without PvP. - right ?

    The Caravans,
    The Nodes and their Sieges,
    Piracy/Naval Battles on the Seas,

    how is all that supposed to function without PvP ?

    You are a 100% right sir. This game is made with these features in mind, its build up around those ways of playing. So if they were to disappear, the game would lose its teeth.
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    BlipBlip Member
    Steven said many times that they wont go against core pilars and vision for AoC. PvP is a huge part of that, if you cant deal with PvP Ashes is not for you.

    Coruption system even insetevice PvP if you fight back loss only 50% of your stuff. And attacker dose not become corupted.

    Win win, i will defenetly PK playwrs for resources and/or leveling/farming spots.

    And drink the tairs of the Cearbeers😈
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    KilionKilion Member
    YCX wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    People who think that the Ashes gameplay loop will work if PKing goes unpunished or PvP is 100% opt in, do not seem to understand that critical systems of the game REQUIRE PvP to happen on occasion without consent as well as the option for those unwilling to participate in PvP to punish the attackers.

    These two extremes are balancing weights to each other, but demanding to take either one off the scales is asking for a different type of base system which runs counter to the core idea of Ashes. Which is why - as annoyed as some may be by that sentence - leads to the conclusion that "Ashes just might not be for you."

    what

    It is impossible for Ashes to work properly without open world PvP on.
    It is also impossible for Ashes to work properly without punishment (corrpution) for killing green players.

    The way Ashes is designed it needs both, that is why asking for either one to be disabled is asking either for a broken game or a different game
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Flanker wrote: »
    It amuses me that some people come to PvX game with open world PvP and demand to make it PvE while also breaking the core pillars of the game, in-game systems and mechanics. Am I missing something or there is a very obvious solution to find a PvE game and play it?

    It's not like most people didn't already do that.

    Now we almost exclusively get 'hey your PvX design is wrong, fix it and I'll play'.

    When was the last time you saw a serious appeal to make the game PvE?

    I for one just want a system that doesn't coddle the specific PvP players that have fragile egos or short attention spans.

    These threads always end up being 'You guys should play our game, it's not that bad, you will learn something!' and then when it's explained 'no really, I think the way y'all set this up sucks' then it's 'well maybe you just shouldn't play then!'

    They're already doing that. It's all good.

    So sure, if we're having this thread type, I'll take one for the team as usual.

    Ashes of Creation is not a PvX game yet, it's a shadow of one that tries to coddle PvP hopefuls and PvE hopefuls and the PvE hopefuls just got off the train first.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    OtrOtr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Ashes of Creation is not a PvX game yet, it's a shadow of one that tries to coddle PvP hopefuls and PvE hopefuls and the PvE hopefuls just got off the train first.
    I like this analogy.
    But makes me sad because the others could get off the train too.
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    ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I played a bit of Mu back in the day and it had about the same thing as the corruption system

    https://muonline.wiki/knowledge-base/pk-system/

    Never had an issue getting PKed by someone but did see them around with their glowing red nameplates. I think people who get anxiety from thinking about confronting people in a pvp situation think that they will get attacked constantly due to them having no pvp experience

    what the anti-pvp people need to understand is that; complaining about these features will only paint a target on their back, making them a victim of their own fears. I've seen this so many times in PvP survival like Ark survival evolved where being a good sport when getting raided will usually end up leading to new friendships, as to where the ones who loose their shit usually get return visits from the one's who raided them to usually force them to quit the game or find another server.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Apok wrote: »
    I played a bit of Mu back in the day and it had about the same thing as the corruption system

    https://muonline.wiki/knowledge-base/pk-system/

    Never had an issue getting PKed by someone but did see them around with their glowing red nameplates. I think people who get anxiety from thinking about confronting people in a pvp situation think that they will get attacked constantly due to them having no pvp experience

    what the anti-pvp people need to understand is that; complaining about these features will only paint a target on their back, making them a victim of their own fears. I've seen this so many times in PvP survival like Ark survival evolved where being a good sport when getting raided will usually end up leading to new friendships, as to where the ones who loose their shit usually get return visits from the one's who raided them to usually force them to quit the game or find another server.

    True, but this doesn't matter because it's a new era. Those people now make comments on videos like 'Too bad this game went with that dumb PvP system' and then seriously never play.

    There are a lot of things from old MMOs (FFXI, L2, Darkfall, DAoC) that the majority of players just laugh off today on their way to play something else.

    Ashes' best chance of appeal imo is to say things like what Kilion usually says:
    "For the rest of this game to work in the way that you will appreciate, this specific form of the PK system is required, so you have to take the 'risk' with the 'reward'."

    The only problem is, it's either not convincing, or sometimes just outright not true. There are 'holes' in the PvX experience of the game that from the perspective of many such people, just don't need to be there.

    Also, PvP Survival games have the benefit of being 'the correct form of largely multiplayer PvP games'. MMOs suck by comparison.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited March 20
    Everyone who discusses here, or in this case the vast majority, has an idea of what they are talking about the future ideas and potential of having a PvX in AoC.

    Many PvErs players , carebears and others DO NOT HAVE IT , they have the wrong idea , like many of the comments on that reddit meme.

    I really think the lack of knowledge " in this new age of MMORPGS". , it affects a lot to future MMORPGS to try to make more systems that favor PvX.
    It seems that the modern MMORPG genre strives to pigeonhole itself into "PvE" and "PvP" but not give the opportunity for the two to grow together.

    For my part I consider that the new generations need the older generations for their growth to be good and if we have that kind of knowledge then it should be taught otherwise the pigeonholed idea of "PvE or PvP but never together" will continue to grow.

    The leaf lives the time it has been given and does not fight against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm and eventually falls to make way for new leaves. This is how it should be with all PvPers and PvErs.
    EDym4eg.png
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    OtrOtr Member
    edited March 20
    For my part I consider that the new generations need the older generations for their growth to be good and if we have that kind of knowledge then it should be taught otherwise the pigeonholed idea of "PvE or PvP but never together" will continue to grow.
    You talk like an old man.
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    MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited March 20
    Otr wrote: »
    For my part I consider that the new generations need the older generations for their growth to be good and if we have that kind of knowledge then it should be taught otherwise the pigeonholed idea of "PvE or PvP but never together" will continue to grow.
    You talk like an old man.

    I speak as a wise person ( or so I hope kekw ) although I am not old but I do have a lot of life experience and good teachers who have taught me to appreciate life.

    I would just like to see the genre improve and evolve, that's all.
    also may the demonic dark elves be born >:)
    EDym4eg.png
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    I fear only one thing in a game that is player & community driven and that is, when one side manages to establish an actual monopoly on things. This is when things can get lifethreateningly boring.

    When you know no matter how much you invest, you can never get "x" or "z".
    It will always be in the hands of "Guild Y" or the Leader of that guild.
    Which will be repetitive which is never good.

    Or the things I personally want are just out of my reach forever.
    v0xq2orlw5ba.jpg

    Maybe missed a timelimited cosmetic for example and now I can rest assured that I will forever be a "subhuman type of player" regarding it and too many people agree, developers most of all, that this is how things should be.

    These items/cosmetics or whatever can be obtainable in PvP, PvE, or PvPvE.
    Doesn't matter.
    Doesn't matter where the thing I want to obtain originates from.
    But god forbid I cannot get my hands on it. When I truly want something but the path is forever destroyed or too painful to take, I cannot recover from not having the "thing" and this alone will most probably make me quit the entire game, sooner or later.
    Cause from that moment onwards its somehow always downhill.
    Once this occurs even once, like as if it is was meant to be, other annoying things will pile up as well and then it is just over.


    For Ashes... that thing must not necessarily be the flying mount previlige of a Mayor or King for example.
    Although I do hope that we at least get wonderful gliders with tons of reach, like the one's WoW has.
    Maybe as consumables too, to keep the economy going and have each glide be a smaller previlige too.


    But I hope there won't be too much timelimited and later unobtainables in the game.
    This is what kills an MMO for collectors I feel. Sooner or later people are bound to miss out on stuff.
    Pray it was not something they really wanted. This can ruin EVERYTHING.
    And the stupid trashtalks of other player is something no one wants or needs then.

    I loath this timelimited sh**. Even if I have everything I want.
    Cause I know this will depress others and I just cannot disable my empathy.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    It seems that the modern MMORPG genre strives to pigeonhole itself into "PvE" and "PvP" but not give the opportunity for the two to grow together.
    Strangely, the people that put millions of dollars in to market research often get things right.

    While you absolutely can add PvE to a PvP game and enhance it, the opposite does not hold true. As soon as you add PvP to a PvE activity, you need to rebalance that PvE activity to account for the PvP that is likely to happen around it.

    This creates a necessity for lesser PvE than would be possible without PvP present.

    This is why many players want PvE only content - they know that such content can be made far better than content designed to coexist with PvP.

    In order for the genre to evolve, developers need to come to terms with the idea that a game should have PvX content, and should also have pure PvP content, and should also have pure PvE content.

    A company like Intrepid also need to come to terms with the idea that they need to supply enough content for everyone to run - not just a smattering of content for people to fight over and some to run.

    That is devolution of the genre, not evolution - we had games with not enough content for everyone in the 90's, and it got fixed, we shouldn't devolve back to that.
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    MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited March 21
    Noaani wrote: »
    It seems that the modern MMORPG genre strives to pigeonhole itself into "PvE" and "PvP" but not give the opportunity for the two to grow together.
    Strangely, the people that put millions of dollars in to market research often get things right.

    While you absolutely can add PvE to a PvP game and enhance it, the opposite does not hold true. As soon as you add PvP to a PvE activity, you need to rebalance that PvE activity to account for the PvP that is likely to happen around it.

    This creates a necessity for lesser PvE than would be possible without PvP present.

    This is why many players want PvE only content - they know that such content can be made far better than content designed to coexist with PvP.

    In order for the genre to evolve, developers need to come to terms with the idea that a game should have PvX content, and should also have pure PvP content, and should also have pure PvE content.

    A company like Intrepid also need to come to terms with the idea that they need to supply enough content for everyone to run - not just a smattering of content for people to fight over and some to run.

    That is devolution of the genre, not evolution - we had games with not enough content for everyone in the 90's, and it got fixed, we shouldn't devolve back to that.

    Strangely, the people that put millions of dollars in to market research often get things right.
    As strange as it is to see so many MMORPGS players begging for change for almost a decade.
    A company like Intrepid also need to come to terms with the idea that they need to supply enough content for everyone to run - not just a smattering of content for people to fight over and some to run.
    nrl1vzuw63gk.png

    That is devolution of the genre, not evolution - we had games with not enough content for everyone in the 90's, and it got fixed, we shouldn't devolve back to that.

    I think you don't understand the concept of evolution especially in MMORPGS.

    To evolve does not mean to improve, it means that you had to adapt to something that forced you to adapt in order to continue surviving and thanks to that adaptation you can have the concept of evolution.
    There is no evolution without previous adaptation and for there to be a previous adaptation there must be an environment that requires you to adapt in order to continue surviving.

    That is what the MMORPG world is in right now, That is what the MMORPG GENRE is in right now.

    Don't you realize it? RIOT already realized it, Intrepid realized it a long time ago and many others are realizing it, you can feel the winds of change, a new era is coming and the development studios that know how to adapt to it will be the ones that will really evolve.

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    #LETTHEMCOOK a good dish seasoned with evolution.
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    PawketsPawkets Member


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    #LETTHEMCOOK a good dish seasoned with evolution
    [/quote]

    Had no idea the Steven response to this and thank you for showing this. I absolutely love and support this!
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    OtrOtr Member
    ...you can feel the winds of change, a new era is coming...
    ... an era where we pay the subscription 2 years in advance to have the right to test the game and shape it to our PvX vision.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 21
    I think you don't understand the concept of evolution especially in MMORPGS.

    To evolve does not mean to improve, it means that you had to adapt to something that forced you to adapt in order to continue surviving and thanks to that adaptation you can have the concept of evolution.
    There is no evolution without previous adaptation and for there to be a previous adaptation there must be an environment that requires you to adapt in order to continue surviving.

    That is what the MMORPG world is in right now, That is what the MMORPG GENRE is in right now.

    Don't you realize it? RIOT already realized it, Intrepid realized it a long time ago and many others are realizing it, you can feel the winds of change, a new era is coming and the development studios that know how to adapt to it will be the ones that will really evolve.

    q36pb4uc0ef4.png

    8czti0x4xa8z.png

    #LETTHEMCOOK a good dish seasoned with evolution.

    Ah, that's 'unfortunate' but I guess RIOT of all people are really not in a position to take the other path.

    I'm glad they realized it, though. With six different development methodologies in play now, we're sure to get something good out of one of them... right...?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Everyone who discusses here, or in this case the vast majority, has an idea of what they are talking about the future ideas and potential of having a PvX in AoC.

    Many PvErs players , carebears and others DO NOT HAVE IT , they have the wrong idea , like many of the comments on that reddit meme.

    I really think the lack of knowledge " in this new age of MMORPGS". , it affects a lot to future MMORPGS to try to make more systems that favor PvX.
    It seems that the modern MMORPG genre strives to pigeonhole itself into "PvE" and "PvP" but not give the opportunity for the two to grow together.

    For my part I consider that the new generations need the older generations for their growth to be good and if we have that kind of knowledge then it should be taught otherwise the pigeonholed idea of "PvE or PvP but never together" will continue to grow.

    The leaf lives the time it has been given and does not fight against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm and eventually falls to make way for new leaves. This is how it should be with all PvPers and PvErs.

    This is why PVE mainly focused people will not play, the use of CareBear, is the response of a toxic PVP'er who will grief people, in their mind.
    It's a shame that people have to be toxic, there will always be griefers, for this reason PVP games have tiny populations.
    That tiny population could be the death of this game before it is ever released, the game has huge ambition that is PVE based, many great idea's and mechanics, but it's PVE based so of little interest to PVP'ers, the PVE'ers are not interested in trying to do something special if they are getting griefed whilst trying to do it.

    Perception is the thing that needs to be addressed, PVE'ers see hardcore PVP'er's as nothing more than potential griefers. PVP'ers see any complaints against PVP as CareBears and crybabies.

    So any game that is considered PVP focused will struggle.
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    Dracmire wrote: »
    Everyone who discusses here, or in this case the vast majority, has an idea of what they are talking about the future ideas and potential of having a PvX in AoC.

    Many PvErs players , carebears and others DO NOT HAVE IT , they have the wrong idea , like many of the comments on that reddit meme.

    I really think the lack of knowledge " in this new age of MMORPGS". , it affects a lot to future MMORPGS to try to make more systems that favor PvX.
    It seems that the modern MMORPG genre strives to pigeonhole itself into "PvE" and "PvP" but not give the opportunity for the two to grow together.

    For my part I consider that the new generations need the older generations for their growth to be good and if we have that kind of knowledge then it should be taught otherwise the pigeonholed idea of "PvE or PvP but never together" will continue to grow.

    The leaf lives the time it has been given and does not fight against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm and eventually falls to make way for new leaves. This is how it should be with all PvPers and PvErs.

    This is why PVE mainly focused people will not play, the use of CareBear, is the response of a toxic PVP'er who will grief people, in their mind.
    It's a shame that people have to be toxic, there will always be griefers, for this reason PVP games have tiny populations.
    That tiny population could be the death of this game before it is ever released, the game has huge ambition that is PVE based, many great idea's and mechanics, but it's PVE based so of little interest to PVP'ers, the PVE'ers are not interested in trying to do something special if they are getting griefed whilst trying to do it.


    So any game that is considered PVP focused will struggle.

    Im sorry but you said it your self so well here
    Dracmire wrote: »
    Perception is the thing that needs to be addressed, PVE'ers see hardcore PVP'er's as nothing more than potential griefers. PVP'ers see any complaints against PVP as CareBears and crybabies.

    how PVE players see griefing will have to change a little. and is the prefect time to pull PVP players and PVE players together. if you hate PVP unless its planed you are going to need the help of other players that really like PVP to play with so you can do content, cooperation between PVE and PVP players
    in ashes if your off farming and you get attacked don't fight back. if killed note the name down. i bet in ashes you will hardly ever see the same person twice and if you do its the perfect time to go and speak with the local mercenary's guild/group for a bit of revenge after all you can help them with gathering or crafting.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ethanh37 wrote: »
    how PVE players see griefing will have to change a little. and is the prefect time to pull PVP players and PVE players together. if you hate PVP unless its planed you are going to need the help of other players that really like PVP to play with so you can do content, cooperation between PVE and PVP players

    Or, and hear me out... they could just not play.

    The foremost PvE player on this forum has already come to this conclusion. I know a few (only a few) others that obviously have too.

    Why should they care? There's nothing in Ashes to make them care.

    That is what makes this a weird sell at the moment. They don't need to care. Any game that simply 'does everything Ashes does but without the owPvP part (this is easy) autowins for those players.

    It would probably win for some PvX players too, because it would give them PvP goals without all the design issues. And then those players would still probably prefer to learn PvP from/band together with PvX players without having to deal with the potential for griefers.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Ethanh37 wrote: »

    how PVE players see griefing will have to change a little.

    They are not going to see griefing as anything other than griefing.
    You have an idealistic vision of how the game is going to be structured, no game gets organically structured like this.
    people play games to have fun, it's not fun to die, whilst you are having fun and lose your stuff, this one fact will make many leave, then PVP'ers leave when they have no one left to grief.

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