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PUG incentives

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Disclaimer: I haven't completely thought this through, so there may be facets to this with some issues.

What do you guys think about adding incentives for Pick-Up Groups? Static groups are nice and all, and they tend to have their own advantages built in with voice com and class synergies, and just from the people knowing each other. But static groups are also often kind of insular to a point where they might not even pick up new temporary members, if some in the group are out sick or something.

My idea is basically this: If you group with a new character you have never grouped with before, you get +5% experience, up to +35% experience for a full group of 7 new people. This only lasts 24 hours, and only while the people are in the group with you. This added experience goes on top of the usual group XP modifiers. For example, WoW has +40% XP for a full group of 5.

This gives people without static groups a leg up when out XP'ing, and it hopefully gives a little incentive for static groups to fill the last one or two slots they have for an extra 5-10% XP.

If the same people like each other and continue grouping in the future they don't get the XP bonus anymore, but at least they will have made some new friends.

I see it as one of several building blocks to help create and strengthen ingame communities.

Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Put this into guilds instead of pugs - and I'm all for it. Because guilds are already the incentive to PUG. You can have your constant party within the guild, but there's always at least a few solos in the guild for one reason or the other, and you can pick them if one of your members is missing.

    I'd be totally fine if this applies to guild alliances as well, cause this would lead to "pvp guild + casual guild" alliances and I'm all for those and they have been really successful in my experience.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sounds exploitable to me. You would just run with tons of alts on rotation and farm the xp. Or I would at least. I used to partake/run pugs in other games and the incentive was the loot. Also, when you have people from multiple guilds involved you have a lot of leeway and less chance of being attacked.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I'd rather see an incentive to group up with the same people over and over, rather than an incentive to group up with different people every day.

    From my experience, the best thing to keep people in an MMORPG is for them to have close connections with people - and so to me, this is what should be encounraged.

    Giving people a real reason to not group with someone they have already grouped with seems to me to go against what an MMORPG should be.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Margaret said it in the latest stream: "Make some friends!"
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Best way to make friends is to run a pug group.
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  • TheHiddenDaggerInnTheHiddenDaggerInn Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes, you can make some great friends through pick up groups, I would suggest your guild first, though sometimes people have weird hours and depending on the size of the guild options may be limited. So either a lfg node chat, or even posting on the bulletin board to help people meet other people and do content.
    TwitchTV Streamer: The Hidden Dagger Inn Saturday's PM Cst And
    Wednesday's at PM Cst
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    https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Heavily opposed, overall.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    PUGs are my main grouping "strategy". In my mind, the best incentive to promote these spontaneous or temporary alliances (even if for hours) is more about having content requiring different size of groups near each others. Solo and small groups; small groups and full group, full group and multi-group/raid.

    Any extra rewards would encourage some to game the system, it always does.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Not a fan of it, to be honest. Watch the latest stream, Steven gains level 17 from 15 relatively fast, XPing definitely doesn't need another boost (of course, the XP speed may not be 100% accurate, but something tells me it's not far from the real speed)
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2
    Flanker wrote: »
    Not a fan of it, to be honest. Watch the latest stream, Steven gains level 17 from 15 relatively fast, XPing definitely doesn't need another boost (of course, the XP speed may not be 100% accurate, but something tells me it's not far from the real speed)

    yes. from the latest footage it does appear that grinding is a valid method of levelling.
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  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Flanker wrote: »
    Not a fan of it, to be honest. Watch the latest stream, Steven gains level 17 from 15 relatively fast, XPing definitely doesn't need another boost (of course, the XP speed may not be 100% accurate, but something tells me it's not far from the real speed)

    Specifically about that, they made a cut in the video at some point, where he had gained close to a level in the meantime. So the actual gain we saw was much smaller. I also noticed that the quest XP was disappointingly small in terms of moving the XP bar.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Heavily opposed, overall.

    Can you share why? Even if just as a headline.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited April 2
    Nerror wrote: »
    Flanker wrote: »
    Not a fan of it, to be honest. Watch the latest stream, Steven gains level 17 from 15 relatively fast, XPing definitely doesn't need another boost (of course, the XP speed may not be 100% accurate, but something tells me it's not far from the real speed)

    Specifically about that, they made a cut in the video at some point, where he had gained close to a level in the meantime. So the actual gain we saw was much smaller. I also noticed that the quest XP was disappointingly small in terms of moving the XP bar.

    I don't think we can take the XP gain rate at face value at this stage. Just like during the commissions dev update no one really realized they were fighting mobs level 8-9 with characters level 15-16, can't judge mana efficiency in those conditions, yet people were.

    We tend to read too much between the lines. Often what's there is only a rough draft.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Heavily opposed, overall.

    Can you share why? Even if just as a headline.
    Percimes wrote: »
    In my mind, the best incentive to promote these spontaneous or temporary alliances (even if for hours) is more about having content requiring different size of groups near each others. Solo and small groups; small groups and full group, full group and multi-group/raid.

    Any extra rewards would encourage some to game the system, it always does.

    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ok, to expand now that I have the flow for it @Nerror.

    I think Percimes is right twice over, but ofc this is probably huge bias.

    If Ashes can't manage to be an organic experience before endgame/node loyalties kick in, then I consider it a failed product. Therefore I'm strongly against anything that leads to potential for gaming any system, that isn't a hard requirement of its design or Steven's wishes.

    I honestly believe that no matter how many people are attracted to, or made happy by, an incentive system, that as soon as it can be gamed by someone trying to get ahead 'harder than those people', you've poisoned the well yourself.

    There are a lot of systems like this that I don't say anything about, ofc, because who wants to argue with the people who will be made happy by such things? People like what they like. But I can at least give that much clarity. This is the sort of thing where just the micromanagement required by Intrepid, to block the micromanagement of a megaguild who try to squeeze every last drop of exp out of it, wouldn't be worth it.

    Which would probably lead to 'them not doing that'. And then the efficiency-toxicity spiral begins.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Once, there was a ganker guild and no one would raid with them. Some of their raiders used to join my pug raids. We had a lot of alts in the pug raids too. People used to condemn those raiders and state they wouldn't partake in the pug raids whilst the ganker guild was present. I iterated that PvE and PvP are different game modes and that all those present in the pug were allied against the raids. It calmed the waters and we had free passage to all raid locations with the ganker guild bowing and saluting as we walked past.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2
    in a game with harsh death penalties, I would never, ever do content with a PUG, that works for theme park PVE games like WoW or FF14 that you can "give ir a try" and worst case scenario you lost a few minutes, but I simply cant see why people would play with random players that might cause them to die and lose progress, I wouldnt do it, I would just join a guild or make one myself
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    in a game with harsh death penalties, I would never, ever do content with a PUG, that works for theme park PVE games like WoW or FF14 that you can "give ir a try" and worst case scenario you lost a few minutes, but I simply cant see why people with play with random players that might cause them to die and lose progress, I wouldnt do it, I would just join a guild or make one myself

    Harsh death penalties? I don't see the death penalties as harsh at all...
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Harsh death penalties? I don't see the death penalties as harsh at all...

    up to 4% of your level XP which can take hours to grind it back, durability that requires materials that are very expensive if you have good gear, 30% of your gatherables,

    now die 4~5 times... if you dont think thats harsh I'd say you are up to a big surprise..
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Clerics can give back some xp loss through resurrection. I also wouldn't be raiding for Legendaries if I already had Legendaries. I wouldn't take gatherables to a raid either. You'd have to go prepared. Anyway, attunement is more important that overall stats. So, I'd rather take mid gear tuned to the raid than legendary gear tuned to nought.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Anyway, attunement is more important that overall stats. So, I'd rather take mid gear tuned to the raid than legendary gear tuned to nought.

    Its not WoW... we never heard anything about attunement I dont know where this came from, but this is one of the reasons why I say people will be surprised, players are expecting a WoW raiding experience and that expectation will be destroyed with the reality of Open World PvX content,

    you saying you would take mid gear to a raid is the literal reason why I say PUGs wont be a thing, what would you do when an enemy fighter leap strikes you with his BiS gear mid raid? thats 1 less player to defend, now the boss is gone, raid is gone,

    everyone spawning back in town crying about the repair costs and negative XP plus the 5 hours that was lost, and you are likely to get blacklisted from ever raiding with that group again for going with bad gear and making them lose the raid, if you are lucky you wont end up in their KoS list.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Back when Jeff was in the studio the devs discussed raids and Steven and Jeff agreed that gear would be tailored for certain encounters. That was back when the less than double digits encounters were mentioned. As most of the raids are world bosses you'd be better off with an alliance of guilds in a pug than one guild because otherwise you'd face multiple guilds in contestation. What's better? An alliance coming to reclaim the boss or one guild trying to hold the boss?
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  • XeegXeeg Member, Alpha Two
    edited April 2
    Was just talking about something similar in another thread. If the exp rate goes from 50% as solo to 100% as a group, that alone will incentivize people to naturally group up while they are out in the open world.

    Not necessarily a flat buff, but something like the game efficiency of combat working out or something.

    Obviously this is just a rough estimate, ballpark range, many factors to take into account. But the general idea holds. PUG incentive.
  • FlackJackieFlackJackie Member, Alpha Two
    I think having the exact opposite of that incentive would be it. An incentive to consistently group up with the same 7 people should be what nets you the gains. But maybe a 1 or 2% gain per a new player who you've never grouped with might add that boost you're looking for.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I always guided up in MMOs but after dealing with too many people not showing up for runs in FFXIV I started making my own pick up groups. I really wish I was doing that sooner cause I found it to be way less stressful and a better way of making friends in a game.

    that being said I don't see any real reason to incentivize PUGs because in a lot of ways it's a better option then trying to create a static group from scratch. Game will also have server discords as well making pick up groups even easier then it was in the past. go check out new world before it dies the open world content is massive zerg fests
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    I think that is way too much benefits. Also it might be worth considering that we are looking at 8-player-groups which at least to me means that I'll be teaming with strangers regularly as I have yet to spread the copium to 5 more people to go full 8. And my suspicion is that even if I were to get there our interests ingame wouldn't align enough to play together most of the time and the times at which we can play also differ.

    So my guess is that most people will regularly team up (sorted by frequency)
    • With their gaming friends in the same guild
    • other guild members
    • with their fellow citizens as they all have access to the same commission board with the same commissions on it
    • with people from nearby allied nodes that offer similar comission at the same Points Of Interests
    • complete strangers

    And the big mix up of people will inevitably occur when a Node decays (due to migration) or due its destruction.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sieges and Caravans are already reasons to PUG.
    Dungeons and Raids.
    Events...
  • TyranthraxusTyranthraxus Member, Alpha Two
    edited April 4
    SWTOR had a similar system to what's being ascribed, herein: If you had 3/4 players for a 4-man activity, or like 6/8 for an 8-man activity, you could queue the group to get the rest of the members. There was extra incentive to queue to complete group-content, such as +10% exp and money-gains. As to not punish pre-made groups, your could ALSO queue as 4-and-8 man, pre-made complete groups, to get the same incentive. It was one of the few things SWTOR did right.

    AoC presently plans NOT to do this - but I don't foresee that lasting; It'll probably be a thing for the 1st year of two of the game, before it's determined to be in our best interests, in terms of running and completing multi-player content.



  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Too many memories of being stuck in a PUG instance for an hour with total screw ups. Meeting new friends is fine. Even meeting new enemies can be fun. And then there are those you wish you never had met. If you know what I mean. But hopefully, I pray, this game tries to raise the bar for players to be better at grouping up. There is only so much a game designer can do.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    edited April 5
    Kilion wrote: »
    So my guess is that most people will regularly team up (sorted by frequency)
    • With their gaming friends in the same guild
    • other guild members
    • with their fellow citizens as they all have access to the same commission board with the same commissions on it
    • with people from nearby allied nodes that offer similar comission at the same Points Of Interests
    • complete strangers
    Yeah, given that Intrepid are pointedly encouraging us to get into guild groups for the "hard content" they're making, I also think that guild groups will be the norm, rather than PUGs.

    Kilion wrote: »
    I'll be teaming with strangers regularly as I have yet to spread the copium to 5 more people to go full 8. And my suspicion is that even if I were to get there our interests ingame wouldn't align enough to play together most of the time and the times at which we can play also differ.
    So join a guild! There are already plenty of options available, and we're not even at Alpha-2, yet. There's no reason to feel forced to play as a solo player just cos your existing friends don't play.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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