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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview Shown in April Livestream
Hello glorious community,
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview shown during the April 2024 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, May 24, 2024, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
🌜 🏜️ Check out our glorious nighttime adjustments with some exciting Mage gameplay on our YouTube channel!
https://youtu.be/-oSBNQ8VjTo
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview shown during the April 2024 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
- How do you feel about the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
- What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
- What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
- Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
- Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
- Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, May 24, 2024, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
🌜 🏜️ Check out our glorious nighttime adjustments with some exciting Mage gameplay on our YouTube channel!
https://youtu.be/-oSBNQ8VjTo 
3
Comments
How do you feel about the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
Extremely positive overall, only downsides are combat balance, as always, for me. Now that I 'know' this is less 'placeholder' and moreso 'intended', it's a little more sad, but I definitely appreciate the specifics of the showcase's mobs to make it possible to give the feedback.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
Nothing much. While I will consider using a Wand as ranged weapon if I get to do so and still keep my Daggers in melee, that's going to depend on a lot of things that I guess I'll see later as the month progresses.
I don't really feel much when it comes to Wand usage in Tab Target games because for the most part, it is just 'a way to press a button and do ranged damage'. I didn't really feel particularly positive toward anything I saw in the proc tree, but I hope lots of other people are excited about it! More on that later.
What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
Looked great to me, exactly right. This could just be because I'm used to a specific set of shaders in MineCraft that seem to match up, or it could be that it's just so perfect that it's convergent and every game should look like this. Absolutely glorious work by the team, as we say around here, Gabriel, Chris and everyone who contributed should be incredibly proud of themselves, and I can't wait to see what other, more granular things we see in the Nodes, inside buildings, and in the Underdark, eventually.
The Skybox is also amazing, I'm glad to hear the usual rotation will be in place, and looking forward to seeing what Todd and team do with this relative to the Constellations and related systems. Obviously without seeing the time passage too much in this specific stream, I can't compare it to the main ones that I've experienced semi-recently (Throne and Liberty, MineCraft w/shaders, BDO, unnamed NDA project), but I can imagine it looking almost as good.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
I think I don't like the choices made for the Wand Proc tree, they are a specific type of 'generic' that makes me think they will generally not involve much thought. Basically, they feel noob-trappy, but I definitely can't judge it properly until I see the other specs, so I'll be updating this section of feedback when I've got other videos (or, if they're really detailed, making separate posts in this thread and formatting to tl;dr link those).
Mostly, though, as a knee-jerk reaction, because Wand is such an obvious, and still quite long range, tab targeted 'hold button to do ranged damage' option, I feel that specs such as simply 'do more damage', 'get better cooldowns', are going to have the same problems from my Fighter Archetype feedback. Too binary. Weapon Procs are already a relatively RNG system (assuming ofc that a proc attack has to actually hit, to get the effect) so the level of 'impactful' I'm seeing concerns me a little, but Wand was always going to be a hard sell, I think...
Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Overall, the only thing I can compare it to directly is Predecessor again. This is mainly because, while other games have such things, it's seldom applied to the 'wand' type space, or no such space exists, and I don't Technically have the Liberty to discuss certain other personal experiences.
On-hit effects are a common thing in Predecessor itemization, but it's obviously handled very differently, because even though it's a Player Aiming Skill game a lot of the time, you can therefore miss attacks with your ranged caster basic much as will happen in Ashes' Character Skill gameplay. The difference is simply that Predecessor doesn't have a proc system which creates a situation where you can 'drop your combo'.
There's explicit protection from that. Items such as Magnify specifically count successful basic attacks. That means it is up to the player's observation skill, a question of when to respond to getting their proc.
Regarding the removed above:
With the implementation of Brawl mode, which is ofc closer to 'constant teamfights', this proc system was even further removed from the game and replaced with a different observation skill requirement, which is both more lax (for some things) and more stable. We don't much like RNG even in flow states, and even with great skill, a lot of stuff really is still just RNG. Basically, because certain movement options even in a game with Cleave radius damage still approximates to 'Tab Target' stat based RNG, when placed into a high-information-density situation, it falters in ways one might consider unsatisfying.
As I understand it now, Ashes has the potential to have your character succeed at Wand Hits 1-4 and then RNG miss hit 5, the combo ender, but the combo will start over.
While I don't have any specific issue with this (i.e. I don't dislike it enough to feel like it will make combat unfun in itself), I, as a person who does not enjoy binary RNG on effects, obviously prefer the other version, particularly in a game with synergy requirements. I don't want this game to turn into another Accuracy vs Evasion 'whiff fest' thing where everyone just dives into battle and mashes out lucky things, but this is an 'issue' with the way weapon procs work in general.
My specific issue with the Wand ones is that from what I saw, they're more specific and critical to gameplay and planning than some other weapons might be, and this is why I don't much like the idea of Cooldown Reduction or even certain status applications as a Proc Effect as I currently understand it to work, having watched only the livestream video. Another 'edit/feedback update to come later' thing.
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
BDO's night is interesting, but not directly positive, for me, most of the time. It feels more 'real' than Verra's current iteration, but not generally more immersive. This is due to their lighting model being extremely weird about tonemapping and then having a lot of strange point-light situations. I have a whole theory about which parts of BDO's map were designed early vs late based on which areas look good with the lighting and which ones look silly or janky. So for that game, there's no way to give a single 'rating'.
MineCraft's various Shader options (not the official ones) do a good job most of the time, to the point where there's a specific time of dusk just after moonrise where the world can look more 'real' because the block/voxel edges blend together at longer distances just right. So I think I'd put that in 'like', particularly when the worldgen or the player-builder knows how to take advantage of it, hence why I'm looking forward to all the work that the world design teams do relative to the skybox and lighting, particularly in Nodes.
Throne and Liberty's Nighttime lighting is hard to judge sometimes, because the materials they use for the world in that game are very slightly off for me personally, in almost the exact same way that Ashes materials were before this showcase. Now, I'm not a person who normally cares a lot about this, but it's something you can feel in contrast to the MineCraft part because it causes a slight 'dullness' to things at night which makes everything a little less appealing. The effect is similar to BDO though, it isn't everywhere, so some areas have been more carefully curated than others. I think that TL would benefit from going more in the direction of 'purples' than 'Hollywood blues' as it was put, so I'm glad to see that direction in Ashes' lighting.
Other Random
TL has a problem with their version of Serial Flame Bombing/MultiFireball/whatever. My conclusion was that it needs to have a slight slow or knockback when an enemy that is approaching or targeting the user, is hit, and is underwhelming without this.
Pretty sure that's an easy enough check, to prevent it from being a constant effect from every Fireball that then locks down or makes kiting too easy. The high similarity between the skills and the use cases shown in the video relative to the ones I know of, made me think to mention it.
The visibility is good. I've explained in the past why this is a significant factor in class balance, but if you keep it at this level you'll definitely be fine.
The sky looks amazing! The rocks look great. Their texture is clear, their shadows look good. The shadows and effects of the lamps on the environment look great. Also, I love the turtle, particularly its bioluminescence. Props to the art and lighting folks!
I like that when charging your spells, they spill light on the area around you. I would love to see the wand beams casting similar light on the area they pass over, too, particularly with the lightning beam.
I like the idea of Wand's skill tree structure. Being able to mix and match from various 'pools' related to combo structure, proc types, and each of the separate pieces in order to form a personal style. But I haven't thought deeply about the specifics.
Like the shadows on bushes, though the non-moon light feels "flat(?)".
The light in the air is super bright, but the ground doesn't show any of that brightness.
Ball of Lightning is much better, but it still feel separated from the surroundings.
The beam looks really nice and seems like a nice way to dump some quick damage on a non-threatening target.
Love the more grid-like layout for the weapon tree. And it feels way more intuitive in progression.
Class skill tree also looks cleaner and more intuitive.
Like the reflections in the water.
As a tank, I appreciate seeing mob's targeting.
Overall lighting feel disconnected from the world. I dunno if it's possible to make it way more realistic w/o destroying performance, but that would be highly appreciated.
I expect the skill tree/abilities to be shown off better in future videos, so not much to say about them right now.
edit: Steven mentioned what I talked about and it was indeed about the performance. So yeah, right now it looks flat and disconnected, so I hope the team manages to balance both a good performance and an interaction between the light sources and the surroundings.
First of all, gorgeous night skybox! Though I must say, even more than the skybox itself I liked how the small lights on the ground looked when reflected onto nearby rock formations. I'm hoping that incursions into small firelit camps of mobs will look very cool at night.
Small bit of feedback I'd like to give regarding the desert sand, I feel like it's tilted too much toward green hues right now. I honestly thought it was very flat grass before Steven clarified we were in a desert.
I personally found the lightning spell Steven uses at 1:26:07 stream time (not Ball Lightning, I can't remember what it's called) to be too bright at night, I would definitely prefer that toned down:
I thought the galactic turtle was great, I can't wait to go on a chain of sidequests to find out more about the wisdom of its people.
I'm not the wand user of my group, so I'll let them handle that part, gonna keep it short this time.
How do you feel about the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
I was really happy to see the feedback on night time lighting addressed, which I'll go into later. I thought it was reasonably succinct, as well, showing exactly what you wanted to showcase.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
I wasn't really intending to play Wand, and I usually don't play anything like that in most games. I'm not the right person to give feedback on Wand weapon combos.
What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
I really like the new lighting. It makes it possible to see mobs (or enemy players) without having to crank up my brightness, while still being very clearly different from daytime. This addresses all of the concerns I have, and adds on to it a really pretty skybox. The big moon is so striking and beautiful; that's my favorite thing you showed all stream. I'm definitely going to be staring at it a lot in the future...
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
I really liked the turtle and I hope that you can use more effects like that throughout the game. Having things that glow in such a way at night is really cool, and I think the preview did a good job showing that. Plus, the lighting options like the lanterns seem like they'll lead to a lot of creativity!
Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I've liked a lot of what I've seen on the current status of Throne & Liberty for wand. If I use Wand, I intend for it to be primarily a support weapon while focusing on sword and shield as a primary. Right now, while this seems good for mages and damage dealers in general, it doesn't seem like it's for me, and that's likely fine.
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
I like the way FFXI handles it by making night time a distinct mood without hurting visibility or readability too much. You've nailed this effect in Ashes so far and I look forward to seeing what beings lurk only at night...
We'll see you live shortly 🥳
wand animations all looked nice too, would have to wait to see what kind of builds you can do with them.
game was way too bright if getting lost in darkness is the what you're looking for, if you want players to just notice it's night but not hurt their progress then yeah it looks good
Wand Gameplay Pros:
Wand Gameplay Cons:
Environment Pros:
Environment Cons:
Regarding lighting effects, I thought the night sky itself looked great. The things I noticed were:
1) The player and mount shadows still seem too strongly defined by a single, strong light source. I think those should be less distinct.
2) The totem light sources near the minotaur area were very unclear in how they work. I couldn't tell if they were supposed to be torches or something else. When Steven approached those totem-like objects, I was unable to see any bright light source that explained the brightness on the rocks (the rocks themselves looked great in that lighting).
3) The campfire lighting looked pretty good, but a bit static. I think they would be improved if there was some flickering effects added to the surrounding area. It looks a little odd for the campfire's moving flames to create lighting that is perfectly still.
4) The galaxy/nebulae effect could use a big upgrade to have a more striking appearance. Right now it appears washed out (as if there was a large amount of light pollution in the area).
5) I agree with Sonic that the weapon skill trees starting points are oddly placed. Otherwise, the skill trees look good, especially the archetype ability skill tree.
The reflections and lighting on the water with ripple effects looked very good. Overall great stream.
-The visual fidelity of the effects look insane
-I want to highlight arcane volley. Its an ability where anticipation, clearity and momentum were perfectly showcased
-It looks more and more like a fully fledged game. For example the tooltips for the abilities actually had data points and the quality of the PvE encounters look insane for random mobs.(Although they could be a bit more sticky and pressing the player)
Feedback:
To preface this part. The feedback is on a very granular level and general direction of combat is already kind of decent.
-I dont see a big tactical choice in elemental empowerment, as they are always up and you will rotate through the elemental abilities anyway
-lack of deep mechanics and choices to approach encounters. Looks like 50 shades of applying range damage, without a lot of variety. Maybe thats just me as a mmo player that turned towards mobas, but i feel the skill floor and skill ceiling look rather close to each other.
-effects and some mechanics are not designed for large scale encounters. Even if you can tone down the effects with a slider, ultimately they are not designed with large scale encounters in mind. Im really curious how the node war stream will turn out. Maybe the bard will not only be an archetype that defines space in the battlefield through his force field thingy, but also morphs abilities of archetypes into something more fitting for large scale combat, with the properties of:
- minimalistic and "communication" oriented vfx
- tactical pace
- and more role defining components in groups (within that force field).
-as always im kinda bumped that we havent seen abilities with action targeting active. At this point i dont think there will be a big emphasize on this targeting method for A2. Hopefully placing telegraphs on the ground wont be part of action targeting.
Edit: Upon rewatching i just realized the magma field seems to have been placed through action targeting at (24:49). Steven has selected a target by clicking , but the area where it got placed was entirely different, as it seemd to have been at the center of the screen he was facing towards. The only thing missing then was a targeting reticle, so that you can aim it precisely. Also it looks like using these action target spells in tab target mode is kinda awkward, since the character is dead center on the screen. In order to be to have more space to play with on the Y-axis, action target games usually place the character in the lower third of the screen. I hope in action targeting mode the camera is gonna be properly alligned for that.
-This is a meme at this point, but please get someone else to play the showcases. It feels like its hard to give feedback on rotations, movement and transitions if that aspect of the gameplay is not properly showcased. Or maybe its just the tab target method, i do remember Steven actually having hands when he played fortnite with BustinTv, which is an action camera game.
Everything else looked great, although the wand element effects could be a bit more pronounced.
I wonder if the underrealm will be darker than the night of verra. I did love the sky box and the celestial effects, I just wish the world was more adaptive to situational aspects like shadows across the moon.
Overall my opinion on the new lighting is very positive. I think that the light levels are sufficient to allow clear visibility while still reading as "night-time", and I like the skybox and sky VFX. However, I have some feedback on specific details of the current implementation that I feel could benefit from a little additional polish.
Highlights:
Critiques:
As a tangent, I'm very curious what force is keeping the various floating fragments of the volcanic moon from falling back down to its surface (or exceeding its escape velocity and bombarding Verra).
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
The night time and sunset missions from the Dishonored series have very strong lighting. There's a big emphasis on creating smooth gradients of color across the sky via Mie scattering, with parts of the landscape being silhouetted against a bright sky and others fading out into fog. The lighting is also very painterly, with a lot of dark yellow or soft blue tones that feel stylized but still realistic.
FFXI has a very simple lighting model (just vertex shadows and a skybox), but has some surprisingly good night time skyboxes. There's a big emphasis on subtle color variations around the horizon, approximating effects like Rayleigh scattering in a way which isn't at all physically accurate, but look great.
Bloodborne has incredible lighting, with a lot of subtle tonal variation and strategically-placed pools of light to draw the player's attention to navigable areas. Fog and smoke elements are also hand-placed by the designers to control the composition and create depth.
Thoughts on the new magic VFX
While they're a bit flashier than I personally prefer, all the effects showcased on the stream look very solid. I like the brightness of the various lightning spells, and the beam attacks look great. The point about needing to scale the brightness of effects to deal with the vastly different exposure at night vs at day was also interesting.
While I would personally like spell effects for lower-level abilities to be a bit more understated, in general, it feels like these are on the right track.
When Steven was sitting under the tree we did see a cloud passing over, but the overall level of brightness never changed (though the camera was not looking at the ground, so I don't know for sure if there were any shadows).
Are cloud shadows something that's planned or just not feasible?
Will the moon have phases and will these affect lighting?
Are there going to be lighter or darker nights depending on weather, location, etc?
Love, love the night sky I can see myself walking at night just to exlpore.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Wand Weapon Combo system?
Element attacks and how to max my dmg through those systems.
What are your thoughts on the night-time lighting shown during the livestream?
Amazing dont change it!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown during the Alpha Two Midnight Magic Preview?
As a Mage main love what you have done now with the spells, still need to see those other fire spells tho. About the biome I would like to see more dunes and ruins.
Are there similar systems to the Wand Weapon Combo system you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Not really, I am liking this one.
Are there other games with night-time lighting that you like or dislike? If so, what are they and why?
mmo wise not really, what I woudl add be some night time noises.
I don't like that you would be able to skill everything in your class/weapon skill set. Where would be the risk/reward in choice?
No feedback when you walk over watter like splashes maybe there was sound i forgot.
these clouds, damn!
wand looks good (but not my fantasy)
little darker is ok i think
Would be nice:
mobs that adept pathing to avoid dodgable spells/attacks. Some intelligence would be nice.
Was a tad disappointed that more of the abilities didn't cast light on the ground (I only counted one).
Some of the lighting is appropriately static, such as the "stick-lights", but the lighting from assets such as campfires would look a lot better if they light they cast were to "dance" on the rocks and surrounding foliage.
Feedback: The UI (in general but especially with weapon trees) needs to be a higher priority. Whenever I show a friend ashes the first (and sometimes only) negative feedback they have are the obviously WIP UI elements- I know it might seem low priority but first impressions mean a lot.
Question: Does the pyromania talent suggest there might be some more "self burning" interactions where mages might play around with lighting themselves on fire for certain combos?( I think that's peak mage)