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True Stealth

NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited May 10 in General Discussion
@Vaknar @StevenSharif or whoever, can you clarify what Steven meant by "true stealth" for rogues? Did he just mean it's not proximity based like camouflage is? Are we still getting the predator type stealth? Or has it changed to actually be completely invisible?

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    spawn33spawn33 Member
    I believe he clearly stated it's not proximity based like camouflage, no? So I guess there will be specific abilities for certain archetypes to counter rogue stealth.
    👀 Fellow AoC waiter who loves to play assassins in mmorpgs. 👀
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    spawn33 wrote: »
    I believe he clearly stated it's not proximity based like camouflage, no? So I guess there will be specific abilities for certain archetypes to counter rogue stealth.

    I hope that's all it was :) I hope we still get the shimmer, but that it's just not depending on proximity.
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    SettiteSettite Member
    I Personally hope it's actual invisibility. Shimmer will become easy to notice once you become accustomed to it.
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    blatblat Member
    Settite wrote: »
    I Personally hope it's actual invisibility. Shimmer will become easy to notice once you become accustomed to it.

    I'd prefer somewhere in between the two; close enough to invisible but with a chance of perceiving it against the right backdrop.
    Also I'd like ripples to be visible in water and any other similar effects that non-stealthed players may produce, such as footprints in snow/mud.
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    SettiteSettite Member
    blat wrote: »
    Settite wrote: »
    I Personally hope it's actual invisibility. Shimmer will become easy to notice once you become accustomed to it.

    I'd prefer somewhere in between the two; close enough to invisible but with a chance of perceiving it against the right backdrop.
    Also I'd like ripples to be visible in water and any other similar effects that non-stealthed players may produce, such as footprints in snow/mud.

    That's a hard line to toe I think. For example, if you have some distortion so they are just a bit noticeable then I think I everyone who plays a decent amount of pvp will be able to spot them since people will just get use to it. However if the distortion isn't good enough then they might aswell just b invisible. I do however like the idea of them still making ripples or trails in snow or whatever terrain. A step above this for people who really want to devote themselves to stealth would be having augments within the assassin class that remove all Traces of movement. Just a thought.
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    The distortion should be mostly visible when moving. When still it'd be hard to spot at all.
    And in secluded areas like bushes or darkness the shimmer would be less noticeable.
    This strikes a nice balance on my opinion and makes stealth work better in situations where stealth is realistic, and allows for spotting the rogue when they are out in the open for all the reasons described above, without making it impossible.
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    TragnarTragnar Member
    i'll be disappointed if the stealth is made more visible by changing graphic settings
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
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    AidanKDAidanKD Member
    To me, the specific wording of True Stealth made me feel like it was full invisibility. I honestly think that at baseline it will be i.e. without any anti-stealth measures taken.

    However, he said that environments, items and I think archetype skills are where the effective counters will come from? So perhaps by default everyone is unable to see them at all. But either of those sources can offer increased visibility of invisible enemies up to a certain range. How visible, and to what range they are more visible could be the parameters available.

    I'm not sure what I like, I tend to hate invisibility personally (master of getting ganked) - curious what you'd be trading off for a toolkit of better anti-visibility measures. Stealth characters would need to be common enough to warrant making those compromises.
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    DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Nerror wrote: »
    @Vaknar @StevenSharif or whoever, can you clarify what Steven meant by "true stealth" for rogues? Did he just mean it's not proximity based like camouflage is? Are we still getting the predator type stealth? Or has it changed to actually be completely invisible?

    I think he didn't elaborate because he was saying it's the stealth you see currently with rogues in most MMOs, invisible. If it was something different he probably would have felt compelled to explain.

    At least that's what I took from it.

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    TheHiddenDaggerInnTheHiddenDaggerInn Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yes I was still a little fuzzy on this topic as well, I would of liked him to elaborate. The whole shimmer comment from long ago still bothers me, because to me "True Stealth" would be completely invisible, which certain classes having detect mechanics.

    This is the way I hope they go.
    TwitchTV Streamer: The Hidden Dagger Inn Saturday's 5:00 PM Cst And
    Wednesday's at 7:00 PM Cst
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    https://www.youtube.com/@TheHiddenDaggerInn/featured
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    HardhitHardhit Member
    I found the clarification that Steven provided in Discord to be interesting:

    "There will be countermeasures found in itemization, other archetype abilities and environmental that stop stealth. So there is a strategic and tactical response to invis players".

    How to interpret this statement becomes the next question...
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    TragnarTragnar Member
    all i can hope for is that there wont be passive stealth reveal aura or spammable big aoe reveal
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
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    DepravedDepraved Member
    i want ragnarok online stealth back ;3
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    JhorenJhoren Member
    I really hope we don't get complete invisibility. For a game like Ashes where you drop things on death, that's just way too powerful. It'll become Ashes of Stealthing.
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    im more curious to see if its a stealth ability with a timer or just perma invis till its broken like wow stealth. if stealth has a timer would then make it having a shimmer / full invisibility easier to decide over
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    blatblat Member
    Wow is kind've proximity based though, just very strong. If a rogue (same level) is next to you, you'll know.

    Personally I'm happy with that but I'd like an ultra faint indication at range, just to give that.. "was that a rogue?" doubt.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Jhoren wrote: »
    I really hope we don't get complete invisibility. For a game like Ashes where you drop things on death, that's just way too powerful. It'll become Ashes of Stealthing.
    Dropping Resources isn't super-horrible. Especially compared to Full-Loot or Perma-death.
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    AszkalonAszkalon Member
    Settite wrote: »
    I Personally hope it's actual invisibility. Shimmer will become easy to notice once you become accustomed to it.

    That will only be " more OR less easily to see " however, when someone is expecting Rogues or looking out for possible Rogues,

    in a remotely quiet and oversightly Area. ;) In a hectic Mass Battle, these People will more or less pass you by quicker than you can say " OH SHI~!! " :mrgreen:
    a50whcz343yn.png
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    VeeshanVeeshan Member
    edited May 16
    My personal prefered stealth would be.

    While moving you are almost invisable but can still see them like shimmers or what not so you can stil be seen just rather hard
    However when stationary you are true inviable unless somone right near you.
    Stealth at night/darker area would be better than during the day/light area aswell

    i dont realy like true stealth in games since it doesnt realy offer much counter play especialy when there no duration on the stealth so u can sneak around 24/7 looking for a gank like WoW has (or had when i played)
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    VoeltzVoeltz Member
    "True stealth" is an odd way to describe it if it's identical to what were used to in MMOs. In the past he's said it's not proximity based and does not make you completely invisible, so that certainly sounds like "distortion" as people are calling it or a camouflage/invisibility spell from Halo or Skyrim. I think the claim that it will be too easy to detect stealthers this way is wrong. Anyone whos played Halo knows it's difficult to detect camo enemies unless they run up close in your field of vision and it becomes damn near impossible in the dark. Dealing or receiving damage reveals them. This is a great balance for stealthers because it still forces them to play tactical and with proper positioning which is how it should be. You can't just run out in the middle of a fight and go completely unnoticed. It also plays into the class fantasy of rogues being stronger at night.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I will echo that, yes. Distortion based stealth works in first person perspective games because of some interesting aspects of human visual processing.

    I'll still say that in third person games with large zoom options, distortion stealth can be very similar to no stealth when used against people with good dynamic vision, in a large number of situations.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    DaggialDaggial Member
    edited May 18
    I really hope true stealth doesn't mean full invisibility.

    It's the kind of design that makes the game fun for those who have it and frustrating for everyone else (in small scale PvP).

    In large scale PvP it becomes frustrating for the rogues too because they can't actually use it since everyone in the enemy team spams detection all the time. On top of that, everyone who has the option to spec into detection measures is now pretty much forced to have at least one point in it.

    Invisibility and detection is just a bad design by principle in any PvP game, doesn't have any real strategy to it: if you don't have detection you are useless. if you have detection the invisible enemy is now the one being useless. it's literally 1 or 0 with no nuances.
    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
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    DepravedDepraved Member
    Daggial wrote: »
    I really hope true stealth doesn't mean full invisibility.

    It's the kind of design that makes the game fun for those who have it and frustrating for everyone else (in small scale PvP).

    In large scale PvP it becomes frustrating for the rogues too because they can't actually use it since everyone in the enemy team spams detection all the time. On top of that, everyone who has the option to spec into detection measures is now pretty much forced to have at least one point in it.

    Invisibility and detection is just a bad design by principle in any PvP game, doesn't have any real strategy to it: if you don't have detection you are useless. if you have detection the invisible enemy is now the one being useless. it's literally 1 or 0 with no nuances.

    its not a bad design. also, depending on the game, detection can be built in other skills, you don't necessarily have to spec for it. also whats wrong with that? that's like saying, well this ability is very strong, now I'm forced to spec on it. this anti heal is strong, now I'm forced to spec on it. you don't have to.


    in small scale pvp, the rogue isn't gonna be perma invisible 24/7. you play around that and pay attention because he gonna show up eventually.

    regarding mass pvp, if the rogues weren't invisible, don't you think they would still have issues trying to approach the enemies from afar? they arent warriors.
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    DaggialDaggial Member
    Depraved wrote: »
    in small scale pvp, the rogue isn't gonna be perma invisible 24/7. you play around that and pay attention because he gonna show up eventually.

    regarding mass pvp, if the rogues weren't invisible, don't you think they would still have issues trying to approach the enemies from afar? they arent warriors.

    high mobility / dashing around / dodging / move speed are just a few ways on how u can design a strong rogue without invisibility, and without having to force everyone to play around it. "pay attention and just wait they show up" is boring and non interactive way of playing, in my opinion.
    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
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    DepravedDepraved Member
    edited May 18
    Daggial wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    in small scale pvp, the rogue isn't gonna be perma invisible 24/7. you play around that and pay attention because he gonna show up eventually.

    regarding mass pvp, if the rogues weren't invisible, don't you think they would still have issues trying to approach the enemies from afar? they arent warriors.

    high mobility / dashing around / dodging / move speed are just a few ways on how u can design a strong rogue without invisibility, and without having to force everyone to play around it. "pay attention and just wait they show up" is boring and non interactive way of playing, in my opinion.

    you didn't get it. you will be doing other things, such as fighting the rogue party, you just need to pay attention to when he pops up. doesn't mean you gonna stand still and wait for him. anyway, you still have to play around other classes and reach to what they are doing... replace rogue with healer, or tank, or ranger and its the same. you are basically saying "I don't want to play around anyone or react to what they are doing".

    sure you can have dashes all you want, but you can also have invisibility. approaching the rogue's target in a non direct way is part of being a rogue. invisibility is an implementation of that.
    also, dashes are probably more op...free get out of jail card and free chasing and no one can escape you.

    invisibility might be hard to balance, sure , who knows, same as other things. but you cant say its a bad design. you are only saying its a bad design because "ewww I don't like it".

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    VoeltzVoeltz Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    I will echo that, yes. Distortion based stealth works in first person perspective games because of some interesting aspects of human visual processing.

    I'll still say that in third person games with large zoom options, distortion stealth can be very similar to no stealth when used against people with good dynamic vision, in a large number of situations.

    I don't see how anyone could say that. I don't recall an MMO ever having stealth like this, or anything with high zoom. Zooming out would make it harder not easier, especially with all the other stuff going on on screen. That's like saying it's easier to detect people in camo in Halo when I'm further away from them, which is just flat out false. Nobody is going to be hyper focusing on looking for stealthers in the middle of battles.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I will echo that, yes. Distortion based stealth works in first person perspective games because of some interesting aspects of human visual processing.

    I'll still say that in third person games with large zoom options, distortion stealth can be very similar to no stealth when used against people with good dynamic vision, in a large number of situations.

    I don't see how anyone could say that. I don't recall an MMO ever having stealth like this, or anything with high zoom. Zooming out would make it harder not easier, especially with all the other stuff going on on screen. That's like saying it's easier to detect people in camo in Halo when I'm further away from them, which is just flat out false. Nobody is going to be hyper focusing on looking for stealthers in the middle of battles.

    To each their own.

    I stand by what I said, but I accept that I, and the people I know, might all be outliers.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    DepravedDepraved Member
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I will echo that, yes. Distortion based stealth works in first person perspective games because of some interesting aspects of human visual processing.

    I'll still say that in third person games with large zoom options, distortion stealth can be very similar to no stealth when used against people with good dynamic vision, in a large number of situations.

    I don't see how anyone could say that. I don't recall an MMO ever having stealth like this, or anything with high zoom. Zooming out would make it harder not easier, especially with all the other stuff going on on screen. That's like saying it's easier to detect people in camo in Halo when I'm further away from them, which is just flat out false. Nobody is going to be hyper focusing on looking for stealthers in the middle of battles.

    well, heroes of the storm xD

    not an mmorpg tho. but looking out for zeratul if he was in the match was normal. it wasn't that hard to see (distortion based stealth). i have to say it was harder for lower rank players tho, having played zeratul myself soemtimes.
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