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True Stealth

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Comments

  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    Depraved wrote: »

    well, heroes of the storm xD

    not an mmorpg tho. but looking out for zeratul if he was in the match was normal. it wasn't that hard to see (distortion based stealth). i have to say it was harder for lower rank players tho, having played zeratul myself soemtimes.

    Sure, but you're talking about a game with a top down perspective and a much larger field of view, obviously it's easier to see people this way regardless of them being stealth or not. That's not anywhere near having a 3rd person perspective on the ground. Even so, you're making a great case for this kind of stealth. It works well in HOTS and is by no means weak. One of the strongest assassins in the game, Nova uses it. I would argue if it can work in a Moba, it can work in any type of game.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    well, heroes of the storm xD

    not an mmorpg tho. but looking out for zeratul if he was in the match was normal. it wasn't that hard to see (distortion based stealth). i have to say it was harder for lower rank players tho, having played zeratul myself soemtimes.

    Sure, but you're talking about a game with a top down perspective and a much larger field of view, obviously it's easier to see people this way regardless of them being stealth or not. That's not anywhere near having a 3rd person perspective on the ground. Even so, you're making a great case for this kind of stealth. It works well in HOTS and is by no means weak. One of the strongest assassins in the game, Nova uses it. I would argue if it can work in a Moba, it can work in any type of game.

    Wait, did I misunderstand your first response, then?

    Also, doesn't nearly everyone play PvP MMORPGs with their camera basically in a zoomed out, top down perspective?

    If you're not, with the design of most games as they are now, you're just putting yourself at a disadvantage for no reason.

    Also, in case it was unclear, I was saying that yes, it is weak in HOTS because it works on players with poor-to-average dynamic vision but not on the genetically fortunate who have better than average. It's possible you just don't have the genetics for what I'm referring to, and since it is subjective, didn't know that other people could?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    edited May 22
    Azherae wrote: »
    Wait, did I misunderstand your first response, then?

    Also, doesn't nearly everyone play PvP MMORPGs with their camera basically in a zoomed out, top down perspective?

    If you're not, with the design of most games as they are now, you're just putting yourself at a disadvantage for no reason.

    Also, in case it was unclear, I was saying that yes, it is weak in HOTS because it works on players with poor-to-average dynamic vision but not on the genetically fortunate who have better than average. It's possible you just don't have the genetics for what I'm referring to, and since it is subjective, didn't know that other people could?
    No, It's not even remotely the same camera angle from mobas or strategy games. In mobas, it's like looking down on the battlefield from a Satellite where as in MMOs it's a 3rd person view that is locked to your character. Maybe you "don't have the genetics" to understand the obvious difference?

    It's not weak, you just don't understand balance. That's the entire point of the system, it allows players to be detected in stealth and forces them to play smarter, have better positioning, better timing, vs. being permanently invisible and never having to worry about it. It can still be used effectively but it requires you to be a better player. Maybe you're not as good at HOTS as you think you are.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Voeltz wrote: »
    No, It's not even remotely the same camera angle from mobas or strategy games. In mobas, it's like looking down on the battlefield from a Satellite where as in MMOs it's a 3rd person view that is locked to your character. Maybe you "don't have the genetics" to understand the obvious difference?
    Ah yes, the classic "3rd person view"
    c8t4zikb86g4.png

    I assume "3rd person" here means GOD HIMSELF WATCHING FROM SPACE.
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    edited May 22
    Guess we need a lesson in view differences in games? OK, no problem.

    k0jv8ih2t6w3.jpg
    qwrm14bt0lmc.jpg
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'll disengage here. I don't believe I have the skill to turn this into a productive discussion.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Guess we need a lesson in view differences in games? OK, no problem.
    And in my screenshot the player-controlled character is the same size as my mouse cursor, just as units in your screenshots.

    And this was Azherae's point. Someone who's looking at the big battlefield can notice shimmer stealth easier because it stands out more when your camera is way more stable (as it is in high zoom out), but it's harder to notice stuff when your camera is zooming across the screen because you're trying to look around your char in an over-the-shoulder 3rd person, and most definitely in first person pov.

    Steven has already said that we'll be able to zoom out fairly far. And I'm sure it'll be the preferred mode of zoom, because it lets you see way more of the battlefield, and in a tab game (even if just partially tab) that's a huge benefit.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    well, heroes of the storm xD

    not an mmorpg tho. but looking out for zeratul if he was in the match was normal. it wasn't that hard to see (distortion based stealth). i have to say it was harder for lower rank players tho, having played zeratul myself soemtimes.

    Sure, but you're talking about a game with a top down perspective and a much larger field of view, obviously it's easier to see people this way regardless of them being stealth or not. That's not anywhere near having a 3rd person perspective on the ground. Even so, you're making a great case for this kind of stealth. It works well in HOTS and is by no means weak. One of the strongest assassins in the game, Nova uses it. I would argue if it can work in a Moba, it can work in any type of game.

    yeah I forgot about nova too, oops.

    i kind of move my camera so its almost at the top, instead of behind my character. it helps me see better whats going on in the battlefield.

    if we are talking about an mmorpg like ashes, I cant recall any that uses a zeratul/nova type of stealth. they usually either go full stealth (with maybe some indicator like tracks) or you can see the character (somewhat transparent) when he is close to you and in front of you.

    i think the closest to zeratul would be elves in wow back then, with their camouflage type of skill (forgot the name).

    if we go by azherae's argument, then since it would work on the majority of players (since only a few have better vision than most people, according to him?) then, zeratul type of stealth could work in an mmorpg.

    but I think its more about paying attention to the details, lol. anyways id prefer something more like ragnarok (full) stealth. rogues arent warriors, they cant fight head on once their stealth is gone, so id argue they really need that surprise factor to be very good.
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    And in my screenshot the player-controlled character is the same size as my mouse cursor, just as units in your screenshots.

    And this was Azherae's point. Someone who's looking at the big battlefield can notice shimmer stealth easier because it stands out more when your camera is way more stable (as it is in high zoom out), but it's harder to notice stuff when your camera is zooming across the screen because you're trying to look around your char in an over-the-shoulder 3rd person, and most definitely in first person pov.

    Steven has already said that we'll be able to zoom out fairly far. And I'm sure it'll be the preferred mode of zoom, because it lets you see way more of the battlefield, and in a tab game (even if just partially tab) that's a huge benefit.
    Cursor size is irrelevant, it's adjusted by the devs to fit the view and often manually by the player in the settings based on preference.

    Yeah I mean that's kinda the point of having stealth like that in a game..isn't it? Otherwise, why wouldn't they make it full invisibility like every other MMO? I disagree with this notion that you might as well have no stealth or rather full invisibility if done this way. Nobody has enough information yet to jump to that conclusion. We still don't know what it looks like. They could always raise the transparency if it's too noticeable.

    Also, the example of a 3rd person zoom you gave was on the extreme end. I would say 'fairly far' would be a lot less than that, that's VERY far. So far, I haven't seen anything close to that in Ashes. That's exactly why it should be limited though, it gives too much of an advantage in combat and it largely kills the gameplay experience. Why should the optimal way to play be from a drone cam? you can barely see your character or the fights you're involved in, that's not very immersive or enjoyable. Either way, we'll get to see pretty soon with Alpha 2 coming up.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 22
    Voeltz wrote: »
    I would say 'fairly far' would be a lot less than that, that's VERY far. So far, I haven't seen anything close to that in Ashes.
    4j9ovf43yxsg.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Camera
    A "pretty significant" zoom out distance for the camera will be possible.

    Like I said, Steven prefers full zoom out, so it will be in the game as an option. And that option will be the near-default one for anyone who wants to excel at mass pvp.

    I already showed you Steven's first inspiration for Ashes. Here's another one.
    34dn8rrchlbm.png
    w5sbt2p2rwon.png

    You might dislike this, but this is what Steven prefers and what, as Azherae pointed out, is the usual preference for the games of this type (i.e. mass pvp mmos with tab targeting).

    This kind of stuff is also why I keep saying that tab target games can require a much higher precision skill than any action stuff. Because simply tabbing through your targeting doesn't work when you have dozens and hundreds of enemies around you. And at these scales you gotta pixel hunt your targets. And the ones who can do it better - win.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Voeltz wrote: »
    I would say 'fairly far' would be a lot less than that, that's VERY far. So far, I haven't seen anything close to that in Ashes.
    4j9ovf43yxsg.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Camera
    A "pretty significant" zoom out distance for the camera will be possible.

    Like I said, Steven prefers full zoom out, so it will be in the game as an option. And that option will be the near-default one for anyone who wants to excel at mass pvp.

    I already showed you Steven's first inspiration for Ashes. Here's another one.
    34dn8rrchlbm.png
    w5sbt2p2rwon.png

    You might dislike this, but this is what Steven prefers and what, as Azherae pointed out, is the usual preference for the games of this type (i.e. mass pvp mmos with tab targeting).

    This kind of stuff is also why I keep saying that tab target games can require a much higher precision skill than any action stuff. Because simply tabbing through your targeting doesn't work when you have dozens and hundreds of enemies around you. And at these scales you gotta pixel hunt your targets. And the ones who can do it better - win.

    or the ones who use adrenaline and ranger win xDDD
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Like I said, Steven prefers full zoom out, so it will be in the game as an option. And that option will be the near-default one for anyone who wants to excel at mass pvp.

    I already showed you Steven's first inspiration for Ashes. Here's another one.
    34dn8rrchlbm.png
    w5sbt2p2rwon.png

    You might dislike this, but this is what Steven prefers and what, as Azherae pointed out, is the usual preference for the games of this type (i.e. mass pvp mmos with tab targeting).

    This kind of stuff is also why I keep saying that tab target games can require a much higher precision skill than any action stuff. Because simply tabbing through your targeting doesn't work when you have dozens and hundreds of enemies around you. And at these scales you gotta pixel hunt your targets. And the ones who can do it better - win.
    We'll see what that translates to in Ashes. So far the zoom levels demonstrated aren't anything crazy. First one is not that big of a deal, I could maybe see myself using a zoom similar in large fights. The other two look like Archeage? When I played, I never had to use a zoom like that nor do I see how it's useful for combat purposes, and I still dominated of course. I feel like that would make you play worse because you can't see shit next to your character or guage distances accurately, but you do you if they end up giving you that option. Good luck active blocking or dodging attacks that way :D

    Its also worth pointing out L2 and Archeage may be Steven's top inspirations for Ashes, but that doesn't mean we're going to get a carbon copy of those games. Sure there will probably be a good amount of their systems included, but I'm seeing several other games systems in the mix and also some brand new ideas.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Its also worth pointing out L2 and Archeage may be Steven's top inspirations for Ashes, but that doesn't mean we're going to get a carbon copy of those games. Sure there will probably be a good amount of their systems included, but I'm seeing several other games systems in the mix and also some brand new ideas.
    It's easier to say that their zoomability will be taken to Ashes when Steven outright says so :)
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    When Steven uses a term like True Stealth, that means complete invisibility of the character model. Note that in other games with stealth, no position information about stealthed characters is sent to enemy clients. That makes it hard to do things like waving grass or footprints. And arguably, leaving footprints is just an "AE here" sign anyway.

    True Stealth does not mean 100% uptime stealth for all rogues (IE, 10 sec stealth spell on 15s cooldown, although that's a real lazy way to do it), but I would expect there to be a way to spec for it. ESO does it in a decent way. Moving in stealth costs stamina

    That still leaves plenty of counters to stealth: See invisible buffs via items or abilities, GTAE, one-shot PBAE reveal spells/abilities, DoTs/debuffs to keep rogues from re-stealthing, weather (conjured or natural) that puts an outline on an invisible character...essentially changing them from invisible to camouflaged, etc.

    I also expect there to be an invisibility spell for one or three other classes, but maybe only as a rogue augment.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 23
    Tragnar wrote: »
    all i can hope for is that there wont be passive stealth reveal aura or spammable big aoe reveal

    You address a nice Point there. There is no greater Cancer than "AoE-Exposure" against Stealth since WoW Vanilla.

    It completely removes skillful Stealth Gameplay. And funnily - it is always used in WoW by People with countless Macros to spam oneself to death. :D

    And when oneself uses AoE-Flare (Hunter-Class) - i can never expose anyone. So jeah i am honest here. If that Crap doesn't for me -> then i see no Reason why it should work for anyone else. Yes i don't care if i am salty and envious.


    There is nothing more annoying than "Mages" in WoW casting Blizzard somewhere - and You can NEVER go anywhere near their Raid Group without being forced out of Stealth,

    or the same Crap with Enemy Hunters who spam their Flare. Strangely it is always the ENEMY Raid which can do that and never my own, but i guess this is just what i get for being an eternal Alliance-only-Player. :D



    But Hands down,
    more positive and hopefully heavy Reason here,

    -> there will be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many People in Battles around Nodes and Castles - that there should be no need for People who can safely, easily - or even effortlessly reveal all Rogues in a Fifty Meters Radius easily.

    Why ? Because fighting in Mass Battles will reveal the Rogues anyway. I mean -> if they do not "want" to be useless for their Allies by never leaving Stealth and never fighting - they have to leave Stealth to do "somewhat" at some Point. ;)
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Currently no guild !! (o_o)
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    Did you guys see the stealth ranger run by on stream? It's just as I thought it would be. Looks really good. :)
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I saw even more! I saw a rogue in full stealth! It looked amazing :o
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 1
    NiKr wrote: »
    I saw even more! I saw a rogue in full stealth! It looked amazing :o

    Have a time-stamp? Or approximate time? Or are you kidding? :wink:
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    Have a time-stamp? Or approximate time? Or are you kidding? :wink:
    Oh, no time-stamp needed. He was always there. Probably GM-powered his stealth to be permanent. Damn those cheating GMs >:)
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Nerror wrote: »
    Have a time-stamp? Or approximate time? Or are you kidding? :wink:
    Oh, no time-stamp needed. He was always there. Probably GM-powered his stealth to be permanent. Damn those cheating GMs >:)

    GM John Cena.
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