My concerns with the summoner class

I really like the concept of a summoner class in an mmorpg game , it's a very nuanced class that can be implemented in a plethora of ways but a lot of times it ends up being lackluster.

In my opinion a summoner class that plays strictly through it's summons is a bad take on a summoner. A summoner that only uses it's summons as a low damage buff is also not the correct way to have a summon class (why not just drink a buff potion or have a cleric / bard buff your damage output ?)

A summoner should always be a 50/50 kind of deal. A summoner should be really weak without it's summon and a summon should be really weak without it's summoner. Never should it ever be that you summon an entity and stand back and let it do the fighting (with weaker mobs that should be an option in case of grinding but not in regular gameplay).

If we take a look at Azir from league of legends (I get it's a completely different style of gameplay but the principle still stands) he is just as important as the summons he creates and it makes for an engaging gameplay that relies just as much on the player as the summons , it's not just a 'summon , click target , win' strategy.

The summoner as a character should always be a integral part of the class and the power level should be balanced between the entity and the player.
Another example is the character Wendy from Don't starve. Without her summon she gets a 25% damage decrease debuff , while I don't think this is how AOC should go about making the summoner it still puts a sort of agency of the player to actually interact with the enemy , other than letting the summon do all the work.

In my opinion a summoner should fight beside their summon , not fight through them. It should be an active class with ways to influence the fight by themselves with the help of the summon. On their own their weak , but with the help of the summon(s) they are of equal level to other classes.

Of course this will make the summoner harder and more convoluted to manage but if someone really wants to play as a summoner that will not be a problem for the player. It's a hard game of balancing power levels between the player and summon but that's how it should be.

Thoughts ?

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Githal

I imagine the Summoner will be close to the Demonic Warlock in WOW.
Like your Felguard has multiple abilities ( bladestorm, charge, stun, active hit ability), also you can summon for example second felguard for 10 seconds.

I expect the difference in AOC to be that your pet cant auto use its abilities, and maybe using pet ability has GCD together with your spells. Also maybe you will have more skill that you can use trough the pets than skills used from your character.
As explaned in the WIKI, Some summoner sub classes will be able to summon multiple summons at once and other sub classes will have 1 stronger summon. I believe the 1 with multiple active summons will fit the role "jack of all trades, but master of none", and can have multiple different summons to fit in any role. And the 1 with 1 stronger summon will probably be more focused toward single role.

Githal

here i put some ideas about summoner skills that can make the summoner more engaging and fun

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/59346/unique-ideas-for-summoner-spells

Finov

The most important thing is that the pets move quickly and constantly attack the enemy in motion, otherwise it is very insulting to look at how your pet cannot reach the goal. Nothing else matters.

Githal

Finov wrote: »

The most important thing is that the pets move quickly and constantly attack the enemy in motion, otherwise it is very insulting to look at how your pet cannot reach the goal. Nothing else matters.

well depends, if for example 1 of the sub classes has really strong summon, but is slow, with no mobility. The gameplay may resolve around you using your spells to slow the target, or to push him toward your pet. and ect, so your pet reach them, and once it reaches them it can have some roots and abilities that makes disengaging hard.

Finov

Githal wrote: »

Finov wrote: »

The most important thing is that the pets move quickly and constantly attack the enemy in motion, otherwise it is very insulting to look at how your pet cannot reach the goal. Nothing else matters.

well depends, if for example 1 of the sub classes has really strong summon, but is slow, with no mobility. The gameplay may resolve around you using your spells to slow the target, or to push him toward your pet. and ect, so your pet reach them, and once it reaches them it can have some roots and abilities that makes disengaging hard.

You probably don't understand what I mean. Let's take GW2, where the necromancer has 5 types of pets. When you start hitting a mob / player, the pets stand and think for another 5 seconds before starting to move towards the enemy. If you run from point a to point b, your pets are constantly stuck and can't find their way to you... I'm not even talking about an opponent who got somewhere. There is an mmo age of conan that came out much earlier. There is also a necromancer there and you can run with 8 zombies, for example. It is worth clicking on the attack of pets as your zombies run on a stamina (pets have their own stamina for running, as well as players) to the enemy, easily overcoming all obstacles. Jumping over fences, barrels, stones and begin to choose your enemy hard. I mean, it looks really cool. Therefore, it's all about AI

Finov

Thus, your army of the dead constantly pursues your opponent and causes damage to him, which makes the summoner class very playable.

Finov

There are also various demon pets from the demonologist, lychees from the necromancer, who also quickly find a way to the enemy on which to make a volley / strike.

Mico

So here is an off-topic question, when it comes to summoner classes.

Do you feel like Summoners should have pets that provide non-combat buffs? Such as for crafting or gathering?

More of a utility summons, rather than for combat.

nanfoodle

How do you make a Wizard type class that has a summons, that is just not off set by lowering the magic damage? That is also fun?

My self I enjoy when a Summor adds instead sustained over burst damage but also adds support. Like the Summoner in EQ1 and Damage Shields. The ability to make pets that can do DPS, Tank and CC. Versatility. Also love the group summons idea.

Aszkalon

A Summoner should have at least One Skill that deflects or distributes and spreads Damage directly made on him, mostly or fully onto the Summons, though.

This way,
you can never kill the Summoner without needing to take care of his Summons first. A good way to keep People occupied on the full Summoner's Power.

ArnasPanika

Aszkalon wrote: »

A Summoner should have at least One Skill that deflects or distributes and spreads Damage directly made on him, mostly or fully onto the Summons, though.

This way,
you can never kill the Summoner without needing to take care of his Summons first. A good way to keep People occupied on the full Summoner's Power.

"Summoners may also have the ability to transfer pain to their summons, meaning that a portion of damage or threat taken by the summoner can be transferred to their summon instead.[7]" (from Wiki and an inspiration from Lineage2 summoners, but I guess as you were the one to write it you may know it already).

Depraved

Mico wrote: »

So here is an off-topic question, when it comes to summoner classes.

Do you feel like Summoners should have pets that provide non-combat buffs? Such as for crafting or gathering?

More of a utility summons, rather than for combat.

that's an interesting idea but can also get annoying. like when u needed 8357475 other ppl to buff u every time u wanted to craft something T_T

Texas

I more worried about whether the summoner class actually exists.

Solvryn

Summons are borrowed power or entities pulled from somewhere else.

They can be weapons, armor, traditional pets; let’s not limit them to just one thing.

What a Summoner is by Intrepids definition is a utilitarian class with a unique tool-kit. I rather not play a Demo Lock or a Spiritmaster . I rather see new takes on what a Summoner can be as described in the wiki.

ExiledByrd

I am usually against copying from other games, but has anyone else seen the Path of Exile 2 Witch reveal? I don't think I have seen a smoother necromancer/summoner playstyle. No spamming summon spells, lots of choices on what to summon within restrictions that make interesting gameplay choices. I know action RPG <> MMORPG, but some of that quality of life would go a long way.

GrizzlyRed

I always pictured summoner as more of a mage type class. Summons do specific things, they are not out for more than 6-20 seconds. You might summon a spirit bear that charges in and does an aoe stun than disappears. Or summon a forest nymph that heals the ally with the lowest health for 10 seconds. Maybe a hawk that swoops in on targets and lowers they chance to hit. Summon in a stone titan that has an aoe buff to defense for allies for 15 seconds if you are in range. Summon a demon for 8 seconds that leeches the life and restores your own. Stuff like that, so you are casting summons situationally, than also casting your regular dps, or healing spells alongside them when they are out. Maybe if you are a summoner who that also classes again into summoner you can have 2 out at once.

Maybe its a dumb idea, but that is how I picture a summoner class in an mmo. Having permanent summons out is boring and promotes afk/kiting playstyle. Also with the above playstyle it means you can have countless options on summons, as each summon is basically just another skill slot.

ExiledByrd

I'm okay with non-permanent minions, but they really need to last more than a couple of abilities. I hate strongly dislike summons (like in FFXIV) that you cast, they do an AOE and then they disappear. At that point it's mechanically no different from a mage, and the mechanics and the feel of a class is why I'll play one over another. If I am playing summoner I want to feel like a commander, ordering my minions around, perhaps casting spells to buff them or exploit them when needed.

Things I look for in a summoner:
1. Minions feel meaningful. Not just a DOT that has to run around.
2. I feel meaningful. More to do than just press the summon button.
3. Team tactics even during solo play. Use minions to tank hits, trying to flank enemies, everyone target the healer!
4. Thematically cool. The subclasses can really give people a choice on their flavor of summons (Undead, Elementals, spirit swords, etc)

Swifty00

From what we have learned, the summoner class seems to be an amalgamation of summoner/illusionist/shapeshifter, with the mage solely being an elementalist.

Guajatu

With the demos of the classes shown so far, they are good and interesting, and my concern with Summoner is precisely that it is the only class that is bad to play.

I wanted it to have Skills with mobility and even a little more resistance for the summoner himself, and for them to really be a more versatile and utilitarian class. With invocations that help you In everything, not just in battles.

Aszkalon

ArnasPanika wrote: »

"Summoners may also have the ability to transfer pain to their summons, meaning that a portion of damage or threat taken by the summoner can be transferred to their summon instead.[7]" (from Wiki and an inspiration from Lineage2 summoners, but I guess as you were the one to write it you may know it already).

Thanks for letting me know and onto this Knowledge. Take my Like, good Sir. 🫡

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