My concerns with the summoner class

I really like the concept of a summoner class in an mmorpg game , it's a very nuanced class that can be implemented in a plethora of ways but a lot of times it ends up being lackluster.

In my opinion a summoner class that plays strictly through it's summons is a bad take on a summoner. A summoner that only uses it's summons as a low damage buff is also not the correct way to have a summon class (why not just drink a buff potion or have a cleric / bard buff your damage output ?)

A summoner should always be a 50/50 kind of deal. A summoner should be really weak without it's summon and a summon should be really weak without it's summoner. Never should it ever be that you summon an entity and stand back and let it do the fighting (with weaker mobs that should be an option in case of grinding but not in regular gameplay).

If we take a look at Azir from league of legends (I get it's a completely different style of gameplay but the principle still stands) he is just as important as the summons he creates and it makes for an engaging gameplay that relies just as much on the player as the summons , it's not just a 'summon , click target , win' strategy.

The summoner as a character should always be a integral part of the class and the power level should be balanced between the entity and the player.
Another example is the character Wendy from Don't starve. Without her summon she gets a 25% damage decrease debuff , while I don't think this is how AOC should go about making the summoner it still puts a sort of agency of the player to actually interact with the enemy , other than letting the summon do all the work.

In my opinion a summoner should fight beside their summon , not fight through them. It should be an active class with ways to influence the fight by themselves with the help of the summon. On their own their weak , but with the help of the summon(s) they are of equal level to other classes.

Of course this will make the summoner harder and more convoluted to manage but if someone really wants to play as a summoner that will not be a problem for the player. It's a hard game of balancing power levels between the player and summon but that's how it should be.

Thoughts ?

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ArnasPanika

Aszkalon wrote: »

A Summoner should have at least One Skill that deflects or distributes and spreads Damage directly made on him, mostly or fully onto the Summons, though.

This way,
you can never kill the Summoner without needing to take care of his Summons first. A good way to keep People occupied on the full Summoner's Power.

"Summoners may also have the ability to transfer pain to their summons, meaning that a portion of damage or threat taken by the summoner can be transferred to their summon instead.[7]" (from Wiki and an inspiration from Lineage2 summoners, but I guess as you were the one to write it you may know it already).

Depraved

Mico wrote: »

So here is an off-topic question, when it comes to summoner classes.

Do you feel like Summoners should have pets that provide non-combat buffs? Such as for crafting or gathering?

More of a utility summons, rather than for combat.

that's an interesting idea but can also get annoying. like when u needed 8357475 other ppl to buff u every time u wanted to craft something T_T

Texas

I more worried about whether the summoner class actually exists.

Solvryn

Summons are borrowed power or entities pulled from somewhere else.

They can be weapons, armor, traditional pets; let’s not limit them to just one thing.

What a Summoner is by Intrepids definition is a utilitarian class with a unique tool-kit. I rather not play a Demo Lock or a Spiritmaster . I rather see new takes on what a Summoner can be as described in the wiki.

ExiledByrd

I am usually against copying from other games, but has anyone else seen the Path of Exile 2 Witch reveal? I don't think I have seen a smoother necromancer/summoner playstyle. No spamming summon spells, lots of choices on what to summon within restrictions that make interesting gameplay choices. I know action RPG <> MMORPG, but some of that quality of life would go a long way.

GrizzlyRed

I always pictured summoner as more of a mage type class. Summons do specific things, they are not out for more than 6-20 seconds. You might summon a spirit bear that charges in and does an aoe stun than disappears. Or summon a forest nymph that heals the ally with the lowest health for 10 seconds. Maybe a hawk that swoops in on targets and lowers they chance to hit. Summon in a stone titan that has an aoe buff to defense for allies for 15 seconds if you are in range. Summon a demon for 8 seconds that leeches the life and restores your own. Stuff like that, so you are casting summons situationally, than also casting your regular dps, or healing spells alongside them when they are out. Maybe if you are a summoner who that also classes again into summoner you can have 2 out at once.

Maybe its a dumb idea, but that is how I picture a summoner class in an mmo. Having permanent summons out is boring and promotes afk/kiting playstyle. Also with the above playstyle it means you can have countless options on summons, as each summon is basically just another skill slot.

ExiledByrd

I'm okay with non-permanent minions, but they really need to last more than a couple of abilities. I hate strongly dislike summons (like in FFXIV) that you cast, they do an AOE and then they disappear. At that point it's mechanically no different from a mage, and the mechanics and the feel of a class is why I'll play one over another. If I am playing summoner I want to feel like a commander, ordering my minions around, perhaps casting spells to buff them or exploit them when needed.

Things I look for in a summoner:
1. Minions feel meaningful. Not just a DOT that has to run around.
2. I feel meaningful. More to do than just press the summon button.
3. Team tactics even during solo play. Use minions to tank hits, trying to flank enemies, everyone target the healer!
4. Thematically cool. The subclasses can really give people a choice on their flavor of summons (Undead, Elementals, spirit swords, etc)

Swifty00

From what we have learned, the summoner class seems to be an amalgamation of summoner/illusionist/shapeshifter, with the mage solely being an elementalist.

Guajatu

With the demos of the classes shown so far, they are good and interesting, and my concern with Summoner is precisely that it is the only class that is bad to play.

I wanted it to have Skills with mobility and even a little more resistance for the summoner himself, and for them to really be a more versatile and utilitarian class. With invocations that help you In everything, not just in battles.

Aszkalon

ArnasPanika wrote: »

"Summoners may also have the ability to transfer pain to their summons, meaning that a portion of damage or threat taken by the summoner can be transferred to their summon instead.[7]" (from Wiki and an inspiration from Lineage2 summoners, but I guess as you were the one to write it you may know it already).

Thanks for letting me know and onto this Knowledge. Take my Like, good Sir. 🫡

Limit404

I do like the summoner that has a bunch of minions around him fighting for him. Thats what a summoner is for me (or necro specifically). I think WoW demonolgist rework was a good attempt at this, but i dislike the ramp up part.

What i would like to see is having a big CD that summons even more minions but also have interactions between them, say fusing them together to create a monstrosity with special attacks focused on AoE, single target, speed or slows. something along those lines to create a proper feel of "commanding" your minions to do bizzar things to aid you in your goal.

Then again im already happy if i have 50 small minions surrounding me.

HazardNumberSeven

I am most hyped about seeing the summoner more than any other class.
Especially 'necromancer'.

Personally, I like my necromancers to stand back and have their minions (multiple) do the dirty work, while you manage them and throw a few spells here and there when needed.

Diablo 2 necro/Everquest (pre-PoP) necro come to mind as peak necromancer gamplay styles for me.

Very much looking forward to what Ashes will do with the necromancer class.

Texas

Okay, my actual concern:

The vision that Summoner will be a jack-of-all-trades and can fill holes in parties. The problem with this is usually that they are decent at all things but not good at anything. Hopefully, they can bring something unique to raid size groups or if they are specced right can actually be as good as the role they replace.

HazardNumberSeven

Texas wrote: »

Okay, my actual concern:

The vision that Summoner will be a jack-of-all-trades and can fill holes in parties. The problem with this is usually that they are decent at all things but not good at anything. Hopefully, they can bring something unique to raid size groups or if they are specced right can actually be as good as the role they replace.

I imagine they'll be just fine at each role, but not all at the same time, and only through their pets.
Sort of like the (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a decade or so) magician? In everquest.
You could have different pets for different roles. In AoC I imagine there will be some pets that supply heals, some that tank, and some that DPS, etc.

That's just my head canon though. Guess we'll have to see!

Nephleim

willowisp wrote: »

Thoughts ?

We just need more confirmed info on the class... right now the wiki has some info but a lot of it is older from previous live streams and small comments here and there.

Right now I can see the class working with what we have the issues I see is how the subclasses will play their part. As we have no information on what summons will be available for the the base summoner class and how the subclasses will actually affect the summons over just basic augmenting the class skills as summoners subclasses are a bit different from the others.

Taleof2Cities

Nephleim wrote: »

We just need more confirmed info on the class... right now the wiki has some info but a lot of it is older from previous live streams and small comments here and there.

Summoner is part of the 2025 Alpha-2 roadmap, Nephleim. You’ll have to be patient with the devs … they can’t do everything at once.

Nephleim

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Nephleim wrote: »

We just need more confirmed info on the class... right now the wiki has some info but a lot of it is older from previous live streams and small comments here and there.

Summoner is part of the 2025 Alpha-2 roadmap, Nephleim. You’ll have to be patient with the devs … they can’t do everything at once.

oh i'm being extremely patient, my statement wasn't complaining or me attacking them... just stating a fact that we got info on the wiki but its limited at this time.

im just a bit worried about the subclasses and it being to hard to create their goal so they either dumb it down or it creates a bad gameplay loop of needing to respec the subclass to do certain tasks to get anywhere

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