I think there should be both forms 100%. I agree with Anie on this personally and from female friends that say the same. There's Korean boob armor, and there's practical boob armor. I think it's fine to give both sets and tune down the extremes.
The main arguments are generally objectification and practicality. To be honest, if you make "light" or "medium" armor where there's little to no plating on my male fighter that shows my chest and legs I think that's dope as hell. Make it make sense, but also let hot bois and hot gurlz be sexy. I play games to escape from the world and embrace the fantasy. I don't want to play an ugly character unless I'm doing it for RP reasons. Male, female, doesn't matter. I think Jamie makes a good point that male barbarian types should have their armor too.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
(Most) people in here arent asking for a hentai outfits, beach outfits, metal bikinis or oversexualized stuff like we see in too many asian/korean games. They are asking for feminine gear that looks badass. Especially in cloth and leather armor there is a place for more revealing gear even without going the softporn road. Often female bards are depicted as sexy in high fantasy novels, same goes for sorceresses and such.
Even plate armor can be more feminine with giving it a waist and hips. I mean the roman empire had a muscular naked male body depicted in some their breastplates...?
Exactly!
Plate is tricky because women rarely wore armor historically, leaving artists without a grounded example of what it looks like, but it's definitely possible, just requires some more creativity.
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
It's badass and distinctly feminine, emphasizing hips instead of shoulders, and doesn't challenge your suspension of disbelief with any skin showing. For clarity, the area around the leg joint and under the arms is chainmail.
That armor there is completely fine. I dont mind feminine stuff, i mind boob armor. There can be reasons to have sexy armor, but not in a plate or chain etc. Say you have class that wears a magical shield armband. Their armor is that shield, it takes off a portion of the dmg, and thats it. Then they could indeed wear underwear, and it would be fine. But a steel bra and g string is just stupid.
I think there should be both forms 100%. I agree with Anie on this personally and from female friends that say the same. There's Korean boob armor, and there's practical boob armor. I think it's fine to give both sets and tune down the extremes.
The main arguments are generally objectification and practicality. To be honest, if you make "light" or "medium" armor where there's little to no plating on my male fighter that shows my chest and legs I think that's dope as hell. Make it make sense, but also let hot bois and hot gurlz be sexy. I play games to escape from the world and embrace the fantasy. I don't want to play an ugly character unless I'm doing it for RP reasons. Male, female, doesn't matter. I think Jamie makes a good point that male barbarian types should have their armor too.
Can you give me an examble of "practical boob armor". Also, just because something is not sexy, does not make it ugly.
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
Sure - thats all fine.
Just don't claim that it is removing the need to suspend ones disbelief.
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
Sure - thats all fine.
Just don't claim that it is removing the need to suspend ones disbelief.
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
Sure - thats all fine.
Just don't claim that it is removing the need to suspend ones disbelief.
And why cant I claim that?
Suspension of belief is the act of chosing to consider something that you know is wrong to actually be fine.
This is something that still needs to be done with the armor in question to anyone that knows even the most basic thing about iron or other metals (which should be every person with access to the internet).
Thus, claiming that you do not need to suspend your disbelief with the above armor is to state catagorically that you are ignorant on the matter, yet more than willing to share an opinion on that topic you know you are ignorant on.
Best to just not state that there is no need to suspend ones disbelief, imo.
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SolunaMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I had this thought for sometime but Kaos and Lace have given me the energy to post about it. Hoping to make this a fun post but also generate conversation.
AoC female design (thus far) is very puritan. I don't know if they are trying not to offend people who outrage when females wear sexy/attractive sets in games. I will now attempt to reverse engineer AoC female armor design pillars:
1) Cover as much skin as possible.
a) If skin must be shown ensure its just the belly.
2) Make it as functional as possible despite this being a fantasy game.
3) When you finish your design, ask yourself, can I cover more skin?
4) Make the design resemble the male version as much as possible.
a) Copy paste the male armor and just add a boob armor plate to save time.
Here is a small excerpt of past designs:
Here are some future design ideas that fit this potential design philosophy
Jokes aside, I think there should be more variety that doesn't fit the androgynous design category. Seems there is a conscious choice to avoid anything deemed too "sexy". No this is not a coomer post. I think most female gamers prefer to have their characters look good, and the video above echo's that. I get the realism angle (in a fantasy game) in the designs but its incredibly boring.
I couldn´t agree more, also with what was said in the video!!!
This is actually a topic that has been bothering me for some years now! Even when they still had the monthly cosmetics... Every month I was hoping for a more feminin outfit that shows more skin and I was always disappointed when they released the new skins... PLEASE give us skins that show more skin! I mean... You don´t need to exaggerate and make skins like in TERA where it´s like 90% skin and 10% cloth.
But there are many examples (not only in other mmorpgs) where female warriors have armor that shows more skin, like Wonder Woman for example.
I really dislike the decision that apparently was made by the design department to only create skins where the body is pretty much fully covered...
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
You're right I shouldn't have said no suspension of disbelief. Every plate armor set in this game and with very few exceptions other games, no matter how protective it looks is nonsense as a suit of armor. Real armor is articulated, mainly composed of overlapping plates that allow mobility and protection, plus an emphasis on angles that facilitate glancing blows. Boob plates create traps for blows, not deflection. Large bulky shoulderpads would prevent you from raising your arms above your head. But most people don't think about that, they think coverage=good, and despite knowing better, coverage=good for me too. It's an acceptable suspension of disbelief. A chainmail bikini might look good, but its lack of coverage makes suspension of disbelief difficult (for me).
Plus history does have example from antiquity of tight armor that isn't especially practical, just look at this crap, nipples on a breastplate!:
This is probably my favorite example of female plate armor, it's from a Dragon Age Origins mod:
Just as a point to this - it is not really that much more practical than a chainmain bikini.
Armor should not be tight fitting - because metal can very easily be misshapen.
With the armor you have shown, a single hit with a hammer would immobilize any given joint, as the dent left behind would prevent the armor moving. A hit in the chest is going to be felt very nearly just as hard as it would without the armor, and would then leave you basically unable to breath due to the dent in your armor preventing you from being able to physically fill your lungs.
It "looks" better than what some RPG's do, but the need for a suspension of disbelief is just as strong with this as it is with the other crap.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
Sure - thats all fine.
Just don't claim that it is removing the need to suspend ones disbelief.
And why cant I claim that?
Suspension of belief is the act of chosing to consider something that you know is wrong to actually be fine.
This is something that still needs to be done with the armor in question to anyone that knows even the most basic thing about iron or other metals (which should be every person with access to the internet).
Thus, claiming that you do not need to suspend your disbelief with the above armor is to state catagorically that you are ignorant on the matter, yet more than willing to share an opinion on that topic you know you are ignorant on.
Best to just not state that there is no need to suspend ones disbelief, imo.
So your logic is, that unless you are an expert in armor, you should not have an opinion on armors? Thats a bit twisted, ehh? suspension of disbelief is not a brick, it can be bend og shaped. Some can look past alot of stuff and enjoy it, some less. I can look past a certain thing with armor, you cant. So why cant I voice that? Whats wrong with that?
I had this thought for sometime but Kaos and Lace have given me the energy to post about it. Hoping to make this a fun post but also generate conversation.
AoC female design (thus far) is very puritan. I don't know if they are trying not to offend people who outrage when females wear sexy/attractive sets in games. I will now attempt to reverse engineer AoC female armor design pillars:
1) Cover as much skin as possible.
a) If skin must be shown ensure its just the belly.
2) Make it as functional as possible despite this being a fantasy game.
3) When you finish your design, ask yourself, can I cover more skin?
4) Make the design resemble the male version as much as possible.
a) Copy paste the male armor and just add a boob armor plate to save time.
Here is a small excerpt of past designs:
Here are some future design ideas that fit this potential design philosophy
Jokes aside, I think there should be more variety that doesn't fit the androgynous design category. Seems there is a conscious choice to avoid anything deemed too "sexy". No this is not a coomer post. I think most female gamers prefer to have their characters look good, and the video above echo's that. I get the realism angle (in a fantasy game) in the designs but its incredibly boring.
I agree to this as a female gamer, I want my female character to look good. I want choices. I don't mind boob armor or armor showing alot of skin as long as there is other choices as well. Same with all these androgynous designs, I don't mind them as long as I can chose something else when they don't fit my taste. I just want the armor to show the feminine shape of my character with or without any skin showing. And since it's a fantasy world with magic I assume that some heavy armors can be imbued with magic or something so that the material doesn't need to be super thick and bulky.
Characters can look really cool and feminie (and even sexy if you want) without any skin showing. Colors, details and accessories can make a huge difference.
The problem is when there is no other option than over sexualised female characters and female outfits/armors (like in many korean games). But that doesn't mean they have to make the complete oposite with no feminine or sexiness at all. So many games today seems to be scared of making female characters sexy, cute or just stylish in a feminine way. Sexy armor doesn't have to be a bad thing, just don't make it over sexualized and don't make it the only option.
Dont forget to factor in magic in armor (crafting). Maybe magically worked metal does not get destroyed/deformed by hits? Maybe there are specific metals that prevent that. Who knows? So armor like the one arkileo showed could be totally fine? Verra is high fantasy not the past of our world.
And this is how "female Armor" should be, in this Game.
" NOT " anymore s.e.x.y. than this. Simple -> and efficient looking. My Eyes would bleed with Cancer if i see female Fighters run around in something like a "Metal Bikini" or so ... ...
But seriously. Chain mail would most likely conform to curves. Plate being more ridged would have to be well thought out to look sexy without being cheesy. I am sure if women historically donned full plate armor they would have used more padding into the gambeson rather than have some form-fitting “boob” plate. I believe the chest pieces were designed to offset blows to the side, whereas boob plate would deflect into the center of the chest. That would not be desirable.
Historically the model for female plate armor would come from Joan of Arc, who had been commissioned a set of plate armor by the king of France. This would be the more practical style and the most “sexy” you could go with, I think. If we are talking full plate, of course.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Historically the model for female plate armor would come from Joan of Arc, who had been commissioned a set of plate armor by the king of France. This would be the more practical style and the most “sexy” you could go with, I think. If we are talking full plate, of course.
Good thing it's a high fantasy videogame. We don't have to conform to realism and can have artistic flair win out.
The lack of femininity in the armor and costume sets so far makes me wonder why Steven even added the option to play as "gender 2"
But seriously. Chain mail would most likely conform to curves. Plate being more ridged would have to be well thought out to look sexy without being cheesy. I am sure if women historically donned full plate armor they would have used more padding into the gambeson rather than have some form-fitting “boob” plate. I believe the chest pieces were designed to offset blows to the side, whereas boob plate would deflect into the center of the chest. That would not be desirable.
Historically the model for female plate armor would come from Joan of Arc, who had been commissioned a set of plate armor by the king of France. This would be the more practical style and the most “sexy” you could go with, I think. If we are talking full plate, of course.
Joan of Arc as an example is problematic, because this was a time when there was no concept of armor for women, so her armor was no different from a man's. You can either take this as meaning armor is unisex, which it can be, or it can mean historical armor is inherently masculine, after all it was created with no consideration for women, not to mention some historical examples of armor with codpieces.
I think I'm splitting hairs here because Ashes doesn't have a historical realism style of armor, it's more of a grounded fantasy style, and I think there's room in that style to be creative with women's armor.
There’s practical and aesthetic aspects. Where the aesthetic violates the practical, it will get you killed. That was part of the evolution of arms and armor. Mostly why the cooler looking armor was ceremonially, whereas battle armor was made to be effective. Actually the fancy bits on armor were more to aid in the ransom that came after defeat. Since the rich could afford plate armor, they were a target for ransom. So a little peacocking could protect beyond the fight.
Boob armor that presents a pocket in the middle of the chest is an easy target for a lance (on horse) or hammer/maul/pike on foot. Deflection would be towards the center of mass instead of away from it. In addition to maintain its form, the armor would need to be significantly heavier, something that also goes against the defender. If not heavier, then it becomes extra bits of metal to drive deeper into the chest. None of that represents an advantage over a simple, so-called masculine armor. One potential advantage might be the heat sink effect of metal mammaries.
You have to go with lighter armor to see designs where the sexes are more accentuated.
But this is a fantasy game with fantasy armor, so they can do what they want. My point is that if you can develop a design that appears reasonably functional yet feminine then the critics have less to complain about. Consider that a challenge rather than a critique.
My opinion on this really hasn't changed - best way to understand what female armor is preferred for female gamers is to ask them, actually listen, and design accordingly.
From past discussions about this, opinions vary a lot amongst women too. We're probably not gonna get a consensus, except for maybe a consensus that they don't want to only see hypersexualized outfits.
My personal preference is as always:
Heavy armor = full coverage
Medium armor = mostly full coverage, but a little skin on arms or lower legs can be ok
Light armor = I don't really care. Lots of skin is fine for some of the outfits.
This basically settles the entire argument and any other comments are besides the point.
Light armor isn't usually ever even "armor", it's just clothing with stats for the sake of the game. Any kind of female clothing that's the more sexy people are looking for should mostly be in here.
But medium armor has room for a little something something as well.
Comments
The main arguments are generally objectification and practicality. To be honest, if you make "light" or "medium" armor where there's little to no plating on my male fighter that shows my chest and legs I think that's dope as hell. Make it make sense, but also let hot bois and hot gurlz be sexy. I play games to escape from the world and embrace the fantasy. I don't want to play an ugly character unless I'm doing it for RP reasons. Male, female, doesn't matter. I think Jamie makes a good point that male barbarian types should have their armor too.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
That armor there is completely fine. I dont mind feminine stuff, i mind boob armor. There can be reasons to have sexy armor, but not in a plate or chain etc. Say you have class that wears a magical shield armband. Their armor is that shield, it takes off a portion of the dmg, and thats it. Then they could indeed wear underwear, and it would be fine. But a steel bra and g string is just stupid.
Can you give me an examble of "practical boob armor". Also, just because something is not sexy, does not make it ugly.
For me, it does not need to be super realistic, they can make some good looking armor, even if its a tight fit. But if I feel like im playing in a manga porn universe, it gets annoying.
Sure - thats all fine.
Just don't claim that it is removing the need to suspend ones disbelief.
And why cant I claim that?
Suspension of belief is the act of chosing to consider something that you know is wrong to actually be fine.
This is something that still needs to be done with the armor in question to anyone that knows even the most basic thing about iron or other metals (which should be every person with access to the internet).
Thus, claiming that you do not need to suspend your disbelief with the above armor is to state catagorically that you are ignorant on the matter, yet more than willing to share an opinion on that topic you know you are ignorant on.
Best to just not state that there is no need to suspend ones disbelief, imo.
I couldn´t agree more, also with what was said in the video!!!
This is actually a topic that has been bothering me for some years now! Even when they still had the monthly cosmetics... Every month I was hoping for a more feminin outfit that shows more skin and I was always disappointed when they released the new skins... PLEASE give us skins that show more skin! I mean... You don´t need to exaggerate and make skins like in TERA where it´s like 90% skin and 10% cloth.
But there are many examples (not only in other mmorpgs) where female warriors have armor that shows more skin, like Wonder Woman for example.
I really dislike the decision that apparently was made by the design department to only create skins where the body is pretty much fully covered...
You're right I shouldn't have said no suspension of disbelief. Every plate armor set in this game and with very few exceptions other games, no matter how protective it looks is nonsense as a suit of armor. Real armor is articulated, mainly composed of overlapping plates that allow mobility and protection, plus an emphasis on angles that facilitate glancing blows. Boob plates create traps for blows, not deflection. Large bulky shoulderpads would prevent you from raising your arms above your head. But most people don't think about that, they think coverage=good, and despite knowing better, coverage=good for me too. It's an acceptable suspension of disbelief. A chainmail bikini might look good, but its lack of coverage makes suspension of disbelief difficult (for me).
Plus history does have example from antiquity of tight armor that isn't especially practical, just look at this crap, nipples on a breastplate!:
So your logic is, that unless you are an expert in armor, you should not have an opinion on armors? Thats a bit twisted, ehh? suspension of disbelief is not a brick, it can be bend og shaped. Some can look past alot of stuff and enjoy it, some less. I can look past a certain thing with armor, you cant. So why cant I voice that? Whats wrong with that?
I agree to this as a female gamer, I want my female character to look good. I want choices. I don't mind boob armor or armor showing alot of skin as long as there is other choices as well. Same with all these androgynous designs, I don't mind them as long as I can chose something else when they don't fit my taste. I just want the armor to show the feminine shape of my character with or without any skin showing. And since it's a fantasy world with magic I assume that some heavy armors can be imbued with magic or something so that the material doesn't need to be super thick and bulky.
Characters can look really cool and feminie (and even sexy if you want) without any skin showing. Colors, details and accessories can make a huge difference.
The problem is when there is no other option than over sexualised female characters and female outfits/armors (like in many korean games). But that doesn't mean they have to make the complete oposite with no feminine or sexiness at all. So many games today seems to be scared of making female characters sexy, cute or just stylish in a feminine way. Sexy armor doesn't have to be a bad thing, just don't make it over sexualized and don't make it the only option.
And this is how "female Armor" should be, in this Game.
" NOT " anymore s.e.x.y. than this. Simple -> and efficient looking. My Eyes would bleed with Cancer if i see female Fighters run around in something like a "Metal Bikini" or so ... ...
But seriously. Chain mail would most likely conform to curves. Plate being more ridged would have to be well thought out to look sexy without being cheesy. I am sure if women historically donned full plate armor they would have used more padding into the gambeson rather than have some form-fitting “boob” plate. I believe the chest pieces were designed to offset blows to the side, whereas boob plate would deflect into the center of the chest. That would not be desirable.
Historically the model for female plate armor would come from Joan of Arc, who had been commissioned a set of plate armor by the king of France. This would be the more practical style and the most “sexy” you could go with, I think. If we are talking full plate, of course.
Good thing it's a high fantasy videogame. We don't have to conform to realism and can have artistic flair win out.
The lack of femininity in the armor and costume sets so far makes me wonder why Steven even added the option to play as "gender 2"
Joan of Arc as an example is problematic, because this was a time when there was no concept of armor for women, so her armor was no different from a man's. You can either take this as meaning armor is unisex, which it can be, or it can mean historical armor is inherently masculine, after all it was created with no consideration for women, not to mention some historical examples of armor with codpieces.
I think I'm splitting hairs here because Ashes doesn't have a historical realism style of armor, it's more of a grounded fantasy style, and I think there's room in that style to be creative with women's armor.
Boob armor that presents a pocket in the middle of the chest is an easy target for a lance (on horse) or hammer/maul/pike on foot. Deflection would be towards the center of mass instead of away from it. In addition to maintain its form, the armor would need to be significantly heavier, something that also goes against the defender. If not heavier, then it becomes extra bits of metal to drive deeper into the chest. None of that represents an advantage over a simple, so-called masculine armor. One potential advantage might be the heat sink effect of metal mammaries.
You have to go with lighter armor to see designs where the sexes are more accentuated.
But this is a fantasy game with fantasy armor, so they can do what they want. My point is that if you can develop a design that appears reasonably functional yet feminine then the critics have less to complain about. Consider that a challenge rather than a critique.
This basically settles the entire argument and any other comments are besides the point.
Light armor isn't usually ever even "armor", it's just clothing with stats for the sake of the game. Any kind of female clothing that's the more sexy people are looking for should mostly be in here.
But medium armor has room for a little something something as well.