Current Concerns with Player Only Economy

Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.

What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.

My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.

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Githal

This is already answered - ALL gear loses durability when used, And even though you can repair it some times, after for example the 10th repair the weapon is destroyed. This apply for all gear slots.

Githal

Also high end gear will require low level gear as materials to craft. which will make even the low level items needed even when the server is not new

Zipp_Adoudel

Can you link where this info is?

CROW3

Githal wrote: »

This is already answered - ALL gear loses durability when used, And even though you can repair it some times, after for example the 10th repair the weapon is destroyed. This apply for all gear slots.

Hm… I haven’t heard this. Do you have a reference? What’s on the wiki is that item degradation will make it unequippable, but the item isn’t destroyed.

@Zipp_Adoudel - here’s a link to item repair:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Item_repair

Vyril

Githal wrote: »

This is already answered - ALL gear loses durability when used, And even though you can repair it some times, after for example the 10th repair the weapon is destroyed. This apply for all gear slots.

This is wrong. As @CROW3 has pointed out.

0% durability will unequip items, increasing its repair cost.[5]
Damaged gear can be reforged at a player stall using a portion of the materials that were necessary to craft the item.[6][7][2]
There may be additional constraints for repairing "very unique items", such as having a crafter and recipe to effectuate repairs. This is subject to testing.[8]

But the way an item CAN be destroyed in through over-enchanting. Which is a push your luck mechanic.

Specifically.

Over-enchanting items comes with a potential risk that the item decays or is destroyed if a safety margin is exceeded. This system is subject to testing.[6][7][8]
It's a progressive tier of risk. At lower levels you have opportunities to potentially lose out on the pluses instead of breaking the equipment. But when you reach a certain threshold, there is an opportunity to essentially destroy the equipment, where you get resources back. But that's a risk that the player takes.[6] – Steven Sharif
Lower levels of over-enchanting carries the risk of losing bonuses on the item. Over-enchanting beyond a certain threshold carries the risk of destroying the item and gaining resources back.[6][7][8]
There may be mechanisms for achieving safer over-enchantments, such as difficult to obtain enchantment scrolls, or very rare material acquisitions.[9][2][7]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchantments

Noaani

The basics of gear churn that Ashes is set to have is an existing, working model for games with similar economies - Archeage being the most obvious.

The main driver for gear in this economy is the desire for some players to want that additional 1 or 2%, getting that gets exponentially harder and sees the player go through more and more gear.

Depraved

Githal wrote: »

This is already answered - ALL gear loses durability when used, And even though you can repair it some times, after for example the 10th repair the weapon is destroyed. This apply for all gear slots.

eh it isn't like that o-o unless something changed and I didn't see.

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven.

What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear.

My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.

there isn't any gear destruction at the moment (maybe only overupgrading but not confirmed yet).. the problem you are presenting can be solved in different ways that don't require gear destruction.

Zipp_Adoudel

@Depraved

How do you keep a player driven economy without gear destruction?

Even if you require low level gear in higher level gear or material or whatever, there will come a point where everyone has high level gear and it is no longer needed. You dont need excatly gear destruction, but you do need to take gear out of the eco system for people to need to keep buying it.

Dygz

Ashes is a dynamic world, rather than a static world.
Even Max Level players won't have just one set of BiS gear that works well for every encounter.

oOKingOo

People will probably get their main gear first and after that get more specialized gear sets for specific scenarios. If there are enough players then it will take quite some time until the marked for gear dies off and if it does you can always introduce a new tier of gear.
Also by making craftes able to repair broken gear you make sure they stay relevant even if no one around them wants new gear. In that case they can switch to repairing players existing gear. Also you can use caravans to sell your gear in another marked where more people want it.
Maybe resources blend into that aswell. If you can craft gear that people in other biomes cant craft then you can sell it there.
Also new events introduce new resources. And through the node systhem new dungeons will open and others closed so this will also introduce new gear ppl may want.
I dont think completely destroying gear is cool. I dont see any good in loosing a legendary item to duration. Instead it should break(either be unusable or have 0 stats) and require materials and and crafter(lvl scaling with rarity of gear) to be repaired

Zipp_Adoudel

None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it.

Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.

CROW3

I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I can’t stand the gear sink in Breath of the Wild and Kingdom of Tears. I really don’t want anything similar in Ashes.

Zipp_Adoudel

@CROW3 what are the gear sink in those games?

Myosotys

Githal wrote: »

This is already answered - ALL gear loses durability when used, And even though you can repair it some times, after for example the 10th repair the weapon is destroyed. This apply for all gear slots.

Wtf! I don’t sign for disposable gear.

Roelath

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it.

Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.

Why does there need to be endless gear cycle? Crafting items are already going to be a multi day venture for a singular item. Nevermind the upkeep costs. Plus not every piece is going to be the best of the best in all cases. I think the endless cycle of having to get something better every 3-6months is worse for casuals more than anything else as they're constantly trying to keep up. I don't want to see nerfed content so lower ilvl players can acquire gear to keep up with the endless regearing cycle.

Depraved

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

@Depraved

How do you keep a player driven economy without gear destruction?

Even if you require low level gear in higher level gear or material or whatever, there will come a point where everyone has high level gear and it is no longer needed. You dont need excatly gear destruction, but you do need to take gear out of the eco system for people to need to keep buying it.

sure, ill gladly answer that. people with your concern always raise that point.

there are different solutions for that that don't involve doing pve for 1000 hours to use your gear for 5 and when it breaks you just pull out another set and another set and another set until eventually yougo back to 1000 hours of farming the same gear and repeating the same thing over and over and over

we have things like:

multiple sets
new gear
expansions
alts
new players
time

a lot of players will want to have multiple sets for their main character, or alt characters. there will also be new gear added to the game, now people need to craft that. new expansions with new level caps and gear, making old gear obsolete. new players will join the game and will need gear.

and last but not least, time. its possible that gearing up 1 character with 1 set of gear takes too long. we already know shes is heading into that direction. not everybody will gear up fast. it will be more than likely that by the time most people have their gear, a new patch will drop and we will need to get the new gear. all of this keeps the economy going. you don't necessarily need to destroy gear, you can just make gear harder to get. this would not work if we didn't receive new gear for 5-10 years which is unlikely.

you can still argue that at some point everybody will still get their gear, but this only happens in games where people shit gear and craft 10293584 pieces a day. what if you need several months to get the 3rd or 2nd best gear then you need 1 month to get one piece of the best gear? you are looking at a couple of years to gear up one character with just one set. then you would want multiple sets, alts, new players, etc. then we can get new patches with new gear, for example.

there are also some ways to add gear destruction that doesn't involve destroying your main equipped gear:

upgrading
repairing
deconstructing

you might need gear to upgrade or repair your gear (you can make it so that your main gear doesn't get destroyed, just gives you lower stats, for example). you can also make it so that you can deconstruct gear to get things you need to craft other things, quests, sell, etc. These are also optional. you don't always have to upgrade for example.

in this case, you would still be remaking the same gear, but the psychological effect is better. you arent losing the gear that you already got. losing something is a more powerful motivator than earning something.

you can add these few extra things to reduce the time it takes to get gear so that most people can get and enjoy their gear before a new patch hits, and also get multiple sets and gear up alts. however, they arent necessary to keep the economy going. only the thing I listed first are, with time being the most important one.

Depraved

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

@CROW3 what are the gear sink in those games?

he is talking about the last 2 zelda games. they are more of a survival game kind of..most weapons get destroyed after a few hits and you have to get a new one. most shields are also destroyed after few blocks.

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it.

Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.

assuming that happens, they could also craft and sell other things that aren't armor and weapons, such as consumables, although those get destroyed when used xd

oOKingOo

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it.

Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.

But you would still need the resources to repair the gear and you would still need crafters to repair the gear. Its really not much different to completely destroying the gear economy wise it just doesnt feel bad when you loose an item you worked really hard for to duration.

Dygz

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

None of those support a player driven Economy. If there is a finite amount of gear, then it will die off. There needs to be a gear sink that cause players to need new gear always. Otherwise, crafters will stop crafting and people wont level it because it doesnt make any money. Also if they cant support themselves, it makes it harder for them to do it.

Resources are useless if there isnt a crafter to build it.

Why would there be a finite amount of Gear in Ashes??!!??!!
Again... Ashes is a dynamic world, rather than a static one.
You don't need destruction to cause a need for new Gear. You just need the currently owned Gear to not always work well, depending on the scenario and environment.

Why would Ashes not have Crafters??!!??!!

CROW3

Yep, what @Depraved said above. It’s annoying.

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