Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade? Regrade or die. You weren't successful at all in Archeage unless you were using gear that had been decently regraded. You didn't need to do it yourself, but if you bought it, you paid a lot for it. For all the games faults, Archeage had easily the best economy of any MMO other than EVE. Diamaht wrote: » I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to: 1 Massively incentivise enchanting 2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players. 3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive. 4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content. 5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for. The first point here is the only one of them that is needed - though it doesn't need to be a "massive" incentive. The second point is very minor, considering how little time is spent playing MMO's at anything other than max level. The third point would just dissuade people from running content or taking risk. This is a death penalty rather than an economic measure. The fourth point - while something I like - just takes away from the better gear you have. Players aren't going to invest more time in their gear than they feel they can allocate to it, if players can invest all of their time in to one set of gear and still not hit the cap, there is no need to require them to invest in multiple sets of gear. All that would do is lower the investment they put in to their main set of gear. While requiring players to have multiple gear sets is not a bad thing (and again, something I like), the over all investment - and thus economic activity - would remain the same. The fifth point is again something I would like to see, but isn't necessary. Archeage was incerdibly slow at adding new content. All that is actually necessary is for players to not hit the gear ceiling - and literally no one in Archeage got even close. In fact, I don't think any actual best in slot items actually existed on any server I played. While there were a few items that were regraded to the regrade cap (I saw perhaps 12 items total in my years playing Archeage), it was never done with the best base items.
Diamaht wrote: » I'm assuming players are heavily incentivized to regrade?
Diamaht wrote: » I'd say if Intrepid won't do decay then they will have to: 1 Massively incentivise enchanting 2 Make enchanting beneficial to everyone. Including and especially low level players. 3 Make repairs very cost prohibitive. 4 Make sure that multiple sets of gear are needed to do different types of content. 5 Be extremely active in introducing new content that high level characters need new gear for.
Diamaht wrote: » The economic issues won't crop up until 2 or 3 years later.
Dygz wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » The economic issues won't crop up until 2 or 3 years later. bwahaha!!
Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it.
Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game.
Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard.
it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Current Concerns with Player Only Economy
Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk...
Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_=
Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem.
Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem. Your solution is to constantly raise the lvl cap and have people chase the new gear while passing down the old gear. That means after a few years low lvl crafters have nothing to sell, since there is an abundance of low lvl gear to be had from existing players. That gear may even be better since it was rolled on and enhanced by those players. A top heavy economy is what you want to avoid. How many new crafters will you see in the game, if eventually the only road to success is to spend a few months grinding to max so they can compete with gear from non crafters? You can get away with this in games with shorter leveling times, but not here. Without any sinks at all you wind up with a player driven economy, but only the original players.
Diamaht wrote: » For those of you that are worried about losing valuable gear, make that gear not decay. The "Epics" and "Legendaries" (how ever they get organized in game) don't decay. The common to uncommon slowly decay with every repair. Make it slow enough that you get your use out of it before you need to otherwise upgrade. That way it disappears but players are not bogged down with constant gear replacements. If you do this, the items still disappear and crafted gear is always more valuable than used common or uncommon gear since it has its full use. Edit: Or even calculate it so that two players could use it to level through a leveling range. That way one of your alts could use it too.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » For those of you that are worried about losing valuable gear, make that gear not decay. The "Epics" and "Legendaries" (how ever they get organized in game) don't decay. The common to uncommon slowly decay with every repair. Make it slow enough that you get your use out of it before you need to otherwise upgrade. That way it disappears but players are not bogged down with constant gear replacements. If you do this, the items still disappear and crafted gear is always more valuable than used common or uncommon gear since it has its full use. Edit: Or even calculate it so that two players could use it to level through a leveling range. That way one of your alts could use it too. but its the same. what when everybody has the epic and legendary gear? you are contradicting yourself.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem. Your solution is to constantly raise the lvl cap and have people chase the new gear while passing down the old gear. That means after a few years low lvl crafters have nothing to sell, since there is an abundance of low lvl gear to be had from existing players. That gear may even be better since it was rolled on and enhanced by those players. A top heavy economy is what you want to avoid. How many new crafters will you see in the game, if eventually the only road to success is to spend a few months grinding to max so they can compete with gear from non crafters? You can get away with this in games with shorter leveling times, but not here. Without any sinks at all you wind up with a player driven economy, but only the original players. not necessarily always a level cap increase. you can add better gear without increasing the level cap. low level crafters will eventually reach high level..and low level players as well...
Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » For those of you that are worried about losing valuable gear, make that gear not decay. The "Epics" and "Legendaries" (how ever they get organized in game) don't decay. The common to uncommon slowly decay with every repair. Make it slow enough that you get your use out of it before you need to otherwise upgrade. That way it disappears but players are not bogged down with constant gear replacements. If you do this, the items still disappear and crafted gear is always more valuable than used common or uncommon gear since it has its full use. Edit: Or even calculate it so that two players could use it to level through a leveling range. That way one of your alts could use it too. but its the same. what when everybody has the epic and legendary gear? you are contradicting yourself. Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem. Your solution is to constantly raise the lvl cap and have people chase the new gear while passing down the old gear. That means after a few years low lvl crafters have nothing to sell, since there is an abundance of low lvl gear to be had from existing players. That gear may even be better since it was rolled on and enhanced by those players. A top heavy economy is what you want to avoid. How many new crafters will you see in the game, if eventually the only road to success is to spend a few months grinding to max so they can compete with gear from non crafters? You can get away with this in games with shorter leveling times, but not here. Without any sinks at all you wind up with a player driven economy, but only the original players. not necessarily always a level cap increase. you can add better gear without increasing the level cap. low level crafters will eventually reach high level..and low level players as well... This is the disconnect. You are effectively acknowledging that this is in fact an issue, but you don't think it's a problem because everyone will live at max level. Assuming that everyone that joins after the first 3 years makes it to max lvl, is a bold assumption given the history of MMOs over the last ten years. And if would-be crafters join to find a months long grind just to sell anything for a profit then they will be even less likely to stay, making the issue even worse. I'm giving pretty specific examples of how it plays out based on how it's actually played out over the last 20 years. You are sort of just giving vague assurance of "oh, don't worry, it'll be fine". It's clearly not been fine in most MMOs. It won't really be an issue for you or me, since we are going to be here day 1 and will be rich by the time this plays out. But it will surely be an issue for the long term health of the game, just like it has for every other MMO that has let it's players keep all of their stuff for all of their lives.
Diamaht wrote: » You are talking about each as if they are separate. They are not, they all combine to make up for the fact that nothing leaves the economy.
You even said it with Archeage, you cannot succeed unless you heavily regrade. In other words a lot of items leave the economy
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Is dropping your gear when you die really that terrible?
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » If you attack a caravan, or even defend a caravan and you die, should you not have risk? Maybe you steal the caravan and make tons of money. Maybe you die and lose a gear set. Regear and move on. Its more of a mind set.
Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » In Eve if you lose a ship, its frustrating, but its a consumable. In Albion, you dont get attached to gear sets since eventually you will lose it. There are ways in both games to be safe and never lose them, but then you never have access to the hardest content, or best crafting resources. Its risk vs reward and a chance in mind set.
Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » For those of you that are worried about losing valuable gear, make that gear not decay. The "Epics" and "Legendaries" (how ever they get organized in game) don't decay. The common to uncommon slowly decay with every repair. Make it slow enough that you get your use out of it before you need to otherwise upgrade. That way it disappears but players are not bogged down with constant gear replacements. If you do this, the items still disappear and crafted gear is always more valuable than used common or uncommon gear since it has its full use. Edit: Or even calculate it so that two players could use it to level through a leveling range. That way one of your alts could use it too. but its the same. what when everybody has the epic and legendary gear? you are contradicting yourself. Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem. Your solution is to constantly raise the lvl cap and have people chase the new gear while passing down the old gear. That means after a few years low lvl crafters have nothing to sell, since there is an abundance of low lvl gear to be had from existing players. That gear may even be better since it was rolled on and enhanced by those players. A top heavy economy is what you want to avoid. How many new crafters will you see in the game, if eventually the only road to success is to spend a few months grinding to max so they can compete with gear from non crafters? You can get away with this in games with shorter leveling times, but not here. Without any sinks at all you wind up with a player driven economy, but only the original players. not necessarily always a level cap increase. you can add better gear without increasing the level cap. low level crafters will eventually reach high level..and low level players as well... This is the disconnect. You are effectively acknowledging that this is in fact an issue, but you don't think it's a problem because everyone will live at max level. Assuming that everyone that joins after the first 3 years makes it to max lvl, is a bold assumption given the history of MMOs over the last ten years. And if would-be crafters join to find a months long grind just to sell anything for a profit then they will be even less likely to stay, making the issue even worse. I'm giving pretty specific examples of how it plays out based on how it's actually played out over the last 20 years. You are sort of just giving vague assurance of "oh, don't worry, it'll be fine". It's clearly not been fine in most MMOs. It won't really be an issue for you or me, since we are going to be here day 1 and will be rich by the time this plays out. But it will surely be an issue for the long term health of the game, just like it has for every other MMO that has let it's players keep all of their stuff for all of their lives. you are changing the argument now. the original argument is that at some point, everybody will have their final gear and wont need to buy more items, therefore there wont be an economy because no one will buy anything since they will already have everything. the proposed solution is that equipped gear is to be destroyed to keep people buying stuff. this solution is presented as the only possible solution to this problem. I'm saying it isn't the only feasible solution, and now you are saying that new players who want to become crafters will struggle to make money. ok lets go there then. when new players join, sure you can say that new crafters will have issues making money early on, but everybody else will have an easier time gearing up and progressing since things will be cheaper. so who who is more important here? who got more numbers, future crafters or future anything else. also, crafters will benefit greatly from this.
Noaani wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » You are talking about each as if they are separate. They are not, they all combine to make up for the fact that nothing leaves the economy. They are seperate, because a game doesn't need all of them. A game can have all of them, but doesn't need all of them. You even said it with Archeage, you cannot succeed unless you heavily regrade. In other words a lot of items leave the economy Yes, I am talking about the system in Archeage, which is the same system in Ashes. Are you talking about a different system? If so, why?
Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » For those of you that are worried about losing valuable gear, make that gear not decay. The "Epics" and "Legendaries" (how ever they get organized in game) don't decay. The common to uncommon slowly decay with every repair. Make it slow enough that you get your use out of it before you need to otherwise upgrade. That way it disappears but players are not bogged down with constant gear replacements. If you do this, the items still disappear and crafted gear is always more valuable than used common or uncommon gear since it has its full use. Edit: Or even calculate it so that two players could use it to level through a leveling range. That way one of your alts could use it too. but its the same. what when everybody has the epic and legendary gear? you are contradicting yourself. Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Laetitian wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » Zipp_Adoudel wrote: » Looking through the wiki and listening to stream one question keeps popping up regarding a player driven economy. What is going to destroy gear? In order for people to keep needing gear, it has to be destroyed. In games like albion and eve online, when a player is killed, half of the gear is destroyed and the other half is dropped. These are both very PVP focused games, but they both have realistic economies and they are player driven. What is the plan with AoC? I see that some gear may drop if you go corrupted, but that doesnt destroy gear. Repair might take resources and even rare or unique resources, but in order to train artisans, you need new orders for them to build? Repair requires them to have the broken gear. My concern is that as the servers mature, the market will die off as people get all the gear they could want. New players will not have a reason to craft as most players will have everything they need and getting repairs will become very hard. Items need to leave an economy to make room for new items. But gamers have a hard time with that. not necessarily. coke didnt have to leave the market for pepsi to come in and sell. sure mmorpg are a bit different, but again, you dont need (main) gear destruction. new items can be introduced before everybody gets 100% of the current items. that keeps the economy going forever without having to re farm your main gear every 2 days instead of doing something else when you are in game. I agree with all the other points made in favour of Ashes' economy; this one I think is the weakest. You're removing the incentive for new players to engage in the content older players did to craft their gear, if you just let them pass it on as new expensive stuff gets released. The low-levelled or cheaply equipped players are the backbone of the economy. If they don't have to work to loot and maintain their gear, the only one spending resources are the rich players who can spend them effortlessly, and no one has to earn anything. Keeping repair costs high, and requiring high-effort rare resources and high crafting skill for repairs of high-tier equipment will be essential, and cannot be replaced by power creep. how am i removing the incentives for new players? they still need to gear up. doesnt matter how you acquire the gear. its also a good thing that a rich player could buy gear and help someone new. this would help that person be on par with veteran players faster, which is a big challenge games with collectibles face. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. Of course it matters how you acquire the gear. If people are selling old legendary swords for pennies because everyone has them, no one spends money or time on that part of the economy loop. Whereas if they had to be crafted, maintained, and enchanted/upgraded with legendary resources of the level & tier group they belong to, then they would always remain relatively valuable. Again, I agree with all the other points that were brought up in Ashes' favour, just your power creep argument is relatively weak. it doesnt matter if bob or joe buy my sword, what matters to me (and the economy) is that someone buys it. But no one will, because everyone will already have them, because low tier gear will abound if every high-tier player abandons their gear every few months when new stuff gets released... The point is, the economy would be more alive if everyone always needed gear, and no one ever had much of a surplus, and power creep actively creates leftover surplus left and right. Anyway, I'm redirecting more attention to this than there's any need to. Let's just let the others talk... bruh u didn't get it. if there are people selling legendary swords for pennies, its because better items have been introduced already. read my past in the previous pages. you can simply make it slow enough for everybody in the server to gear up so that when everybody has their stuff, new stuff come out and you keep the economy going. you don't have to destroy whats already equipped. your reply tells me you didn't read what I explained =_= You are describing the issue. In your version the only items that have a functioning economy are the highest level items. Your example of people selling legendary swords for pennies is the malfunction. Letting "everyone level up" also doesn't make sense because a server that only has high level players (meaning no new players are coming in) is a dying server. Lower level crafters have nothing to make and sell, they can only grind up to max in that scenario. That is what you see in FFXIV, the faltering economy only comprises of crafters selling to each other. If you are only taking a week or two to level up then this is not an issue. If it is taking 2 months to level up this is a problem, and crafters have nothing to make that will net a profit. FFXIV has to make up for this by giving the players all the gear they will ever need as they complete the MSQ. And the only times they have a healthy economy is the brief time right after an expansion, and that is only at the new levels. Low lvl economy still does not exist. In your example crafters are replaced by adventurers. oh so low level players don't need to gear up? what I'm talking about is a game where progress takes long. you will spend months leveling up and trying to get gear then more months leveling up then more gear etc. and even if you could get to max level fast (2 weeks or 2 months), you can still make the best few tiers of gear hard to get. new players come in and they will need to gear up as well. level up fast with msq gear and that becomes the lowest max level gear, then after that, players will take a while to get better stuff..then new patch comes out. economy keeps rolling. you can even do that with bond items lol. destroying your equipped armor isn't the only solution. and I only gave the pennies example replying to the other dude since he mentioned it. there is more than one solution to a problem. Your solution is to constantly raise the lvl cap and have people chase the new gear while passing down the old gear. That means after a few years low lvl crafters have nothing to sell, since there is an abundance of low lvl gear to be had from existing players. That gear may even be better since it was rolled on and enhanced by those players. A top heavy economy is what you want to avoid. How many new crafters will you see in the game, if eventually the only road to success is to spend a few months grinding to max so they can compete with gear from non crafters? You can get away with this in games with shorter leveling times, but not here. Without any sinks at all you wind up with a player driven economy, but only the original players. not necessarily always a level cap increase. you can add better gear without increasing the level cap. low level crafters will eventually reach high level..and low level players as well... This is the disconnect. You are effectively acknowledging that this is in fact an issue, but you don't think it's a problem because everyone will live at max level. Assuming that everyone that joins after the first 3 years makes it to max lvl, is a bold assumption given the history of MMOs over the last ten years. And if would-be crafters join to find a months long grind just to sell anything for a profit then they will be even less likely to stay, making the issue even worse. I'm giving pretty specific examples of how it plays out based on how it's actually played out over the last 20 years. You are sort of just giving vague assurance of "oh, don't worry, it'll be fine". It's clearly not been fine in most MMOs. It won't really be an issue for you or me, since we are going to be here day 1 and will be rich by the time this plays out. But it will surely be an issue for the long term health of the game, just like it has for every other MMO that has let it's players keep all of their stuff for all of their lives. you are changing the argument now. the original argument is that at some point, everybody will have their final gear and wont need to buy more items, therefore there wont be an economy because no one will buy anything since they will already have everything. the proposed solution is that equipped gear is to be destroyed to keep people buying stuff. this solution is presented as the only possible solution to this problem. I'm saying it isn't the only feasible solution, and now you are saying that new players who want to become crafters will struggle to make money. ok lets go there then. when new players join, sure you can say that new crafters will have issues making money early on, but everybody else will have an easier time gearing up and progressing since things will be cheaper. so who who is more important here? who got more numbers, future crafters or future anything else. also, crafters will benefit greatly from this. I'm not changing anything. You are saying early to mid level crafting should be sacrificed to make sure I don't ever have to lose anything. I'm disagreeing and saying this damages the game, like it has in every other game without adequate gear sinks. To answer the questing in that last paragraph, the early to mid game crafter is more important. By miles. I don't want gear to be 10 times easier to get 3 years down the line. Players joining three years from now should go through the same leveling and gear acquisition process that I went through, and you went through. The early game crafters should have the same opportunities, 3 years in, that crafters did on day one. You have to earn your stuff, not have it handed to you because some loaded vet will just hand it to you. Also, and most important, the economy needs to be healthy at all lvls to be functional long term.
