Will it be possible to node 1 declare war to node 2, but at same time node 2 declare war to node 1? or at the same time a node 3 declare war at same time to node 2? and a node 4 and 5 at same time declare war to node 1?
Because the "node wars" seem to happen in zones of the one who got war declared only right? and not in both zones, is that it? Then i suppose not only node 2 should be able to defend, but maybe counter attack declaring wars within node 1 territory zone. And also like other nearby nodes should be able to war even if node 1 and 2 are on war?
The one thing that came to mind while I was watching the live stream was that it would be cool to add a function for the mayor to delegate a general for the node war. My thought is that since the mayoral abilities are very impactful for strategizing for the battle, this could enable the mayor to choose a better "battle strategist" for the war.
Not every mayor is going to be a great battle strategist and this could enable the node to choose a "commander". That said, I guess this could play into the node politics and become a portion of the decision making for the citizens when it comes to electing a mayor.
I'd like to add on the topic of PvP, that CC diminishing returns should be an absolute priority for the team, top 1 priority for combat, I think they shouldnt be removing stuns and CCs out of the class kits like apparently happened with the tank wall, there should be CC imunity and diminishing returns implemented for strategic use of those stuns and counterplay, and Im not talking abou a cc break I mean an actual CC diminishing return system,
also, please give more mobility/defense for the healer, a divine blink and a skill that pushes surrounding enemies away would greatly improve its kit
Before the war:
- Not sure if you consider this as an UI thing. Sorry if you do. The Commission Turn In Box probably needs another confirmation dialog (at min 11:06) where you select which comission you want to submit your resources to. It looks like right now you turn in everything you can with the resources you have and maybe the player only wants to complete one of the commmissions.
- Consider renaming "War Type" to "Casus Belli". I think it's more immersive, more fitting and cooler overall.
About the war:
- I like how the final objective around the channel thingy is a big large scale battle and the prior objectives on the other hand requires splitting the raid and a bit more strategy. It's good to have both.
- Those smaller objectives could maybe be a bit more interesting that looting some regular NPCs and farming some things.
- I worry about the role of melee classes in big battles, specially Fighters. If they charge in, they die. If they don't, they do nothing. It's cool that all classes are different but you need to think of something for them to do in these situations.
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
Overall it looked nice and like something I would like to play. The mix between PvE objectives and Pvp is nice, but I think that some PvP objectives could be had even in stage 1. If I understood correctly players only drop blood or material when they got that before. Which is fine, but maybe have players drop a third thing. Ears are always great. I can see that this isnt there, maybe to prevent griefing when one faction just isnt showing up at all but maybe there is a way around it with killing the npcs of the enemy warcamp.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Fighting for my own node, battling other players, making a name. Server pride was a thing back in the days, i miss it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
My biggest concern is player numbers. How do you prevent a zerg node to roll over smaller ones? I didnt see a player limitation for this node war? This would make it very boring for both sides of the war but depending on the rewards the bigger node might still want to do it over more "fair" battles.
The second concern would be dying. From what I have observed the "corpse run" wasnt very long. So killing an enemy player wasnt that impactful. We dont need a 20min+ corpse run back to emain macha like in DAoC back in the days, but being back in a minute or less makes it feel irrelevant. "Choices matter" is a big plus in my book. Dying isnt necessarily a choice buuuuut. You know?
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Steven talked about relics. The old DAoC had relics too and the concept was pretty awesome. Three factions, every faction had 2 relics. One relic gave 10% physical damage other gave 10% magical damage for the entire faction (in PvE and PvP). To steal a relic of an opposing faction you need to raid their relic keep and bring it back to one of your relic keeps. It was fun as hell and made the game for quite some time as it created a faction pride and a reason to work together as a faction and such. Nodes could have something similar.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Mass PvP is nice as long as it doenst desolve to spamming big aoes on the opposing zerg. Sure some classes wont have a good time in mass PvP, but if the corpse run routes are long enough classes like rogues could have their place around the mass PvP. Ganking their respawns, scouting for information and such.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
50/50 is fine but objectives being more PvE is fine as long as they are placed in an confrontational area.
Looking at this map the green areas are kinda non combat areas. They are too far away for one side to fight for them. I would move the camps a bit further ways, maybe have one "green" point but mostly have red points where boths factions of the node war fight over.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I like the idea of having several small teams that work together towards a goal. maybe a group or two together as a team and having several of those clearing different objectives. objectives here not only limited to whats in the log but also scouting the enemy, disrupting their teams doing objectives and so on.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I dont mind having node wars daily, but not from the same opponent. You should declare war/a node war easily. Maybe you node has to farm half a week to declare war or something. But when you piss off too many nodes, you should feel the pressure.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Relics like the ones mentioned above from lvl5+ maybe even lvl6 nodes would be awesome, but could be better as a reward for sieges? Other than that would be stealing the enemy forge or some other artisan building to upgrade/replace the one in your own node. Resources of course. (Node-)Xp is always nice.. for personal rewards could depend on the specialisation of the node. Animal Husbandry node? Get some mounts, woodworking node? Get bows and instruments. Honestly I dont have a strong opinion on this one. Have to play A2 for a clearer picture I suppose.
Lastly I want to point out that I didnt really like the armors that were shown in the live stream. They all looked a bit generic to me which they probably are because thats not the focus right now but I hope that we get some great looking armors to strife for later on (outside of cosmetics). I hope that the best looking armor isnt cash shop armor but armor you have to play the game for. Achieve something, kill a dragon, find a rare recipe, safe a maiden, something more significant than swiping your credit card. Sure we want to have good looking armor in the cash shop too, else noone will buy it but this shouldnt be the only way to look good. More regarding that point is here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/455951#Comment_455951
I think some of the interactions that mayors can currently do through the Node UI they shouldn't be able to do just like that in any part of the world. It's a bit immersion breaking. I'm specially referring to transcendent ones like declaring a war. A missed opportunity.
Declaring a war should be a big deal, bells in the city should ring, NPCs maybe change their stance a bit, maybe even look horrified or at least act differently. Things like that. And the Mayor should definitively not be in the other side of the world pulling up a UI panel and clicking a button. Should be there.
1. First, I would like to see a few variations in the type of node wars that can be declared based on the type of node (military, scientific, divine, economic), reflecting those over-arching themes.
There should be a lot of overlap in the node war types, but also having a variety based on node type will be good for the game, I think.
A military node could have a node war type with events that focus on degrading the enemy node’s defenses. This could be in preparation for a later node siege.
An economic node could have a node war type that focuses on doing economic damage to the enemy node, disrupting their markets, auction house and caravanserai.
Scientific and divine nodes can have some obvious war type focuses as well.
2. Secondly, I think special war types between two nodes of the same node type should exist. Basically big epeen contests showing which of the two nodes have the best warriors/artisans/gold hoarders/religious fanatics.
For example, a military node should have a special war type they can only declare on another military node, with events that are strictly PvP. Some with participation limits, like a big arena, where skill is king, and also some that are more freeform and can be decided by those who bring the most warriors.
3. Thirdly, I think the PvP/PvE balance in any given war type should be varied. I don’t want to see a 50/50 or 70/30 balance in all the wars. Mix it up. Even have a few node war types where the PvE objectives outweigh the PvP objectives by a significant margin. It’s ok if some of those PvE objectives are instanced and thus completely insulated from PvP, in some cases. Make the node war types "PvX" in all the meanings of the word, when looked at in totality.
Let me be clear that I like the segmented health bars, but I saw some people had concerns over the "responsiveness" of it, since you might cast 3-4 abilities at someone and not see any changes.
So I thought that adding cracks to the bars at certain breakpoints might help that out, but also thought "if the cracks always show up at 50%, you might as well just have 8 segments instead of 4", so idk. Fuppo wanted me to post the idea here anyways.
I do think that if something like this is added, you shouldnt do it for the last bar, since that would make it too easy for people to abuse.
I think the use of NPC guards in node wars should be defensive in nature only. They don’t have to only be in the node, they can also protect each respective HQ in the events like the Highwayman Hills, for example, but any offensive action should always be done by players.
With that said, I think players should be able to affect both the quality and quantity of guards to a large extent, no matter the node type. I know Military nodes have their Barracks system, but that should be an addition to the node war guards system, and potentially more focused on being a node siege related system.
The mayor should be able to allocate more resources and funds for guards defending node war event objectives, and for protecting the node itself, increasing both the quantity and base quality of all guards. This can be done straight from node funds, or it can be through a mayoral commission.
Node citizens should also be able to directly upgrade guards through some system. Donating equipment, gold and temporary buffs in a broad sense to upgrade all the guards, or through some “Adopt a Guard” system, where they focus on a specific guard to turn them into a super-guard. Let the players see the K/D ratio of their chosen pet guards.
Each node type should have slightly different ways they excel in. Divine nodes can provide their guards with better buffs, scientific nodes better equipment, etc. No matter the node type, I think being able to upgrade guards all the way up to elite status - where a 1v1 between a player and guard will be very, very difficult for the player - is ok, but at a significant cost. Perhaps even let players upgrade the NPC guard commanders to mini-boss status.
A node wars guard system as suggested above also functions as a potentially significant gold and material sink, obviously.
Loved what I saw when it comes to verity of play. PvP was broken up by events that changed the dynamic of PvP. I do want to play test this to death
The bad. Partical effects are to large and colorful. This does need to be scaled. It's way to busy and worst of all, it will be hard to tell what class is doing what in the battle.
Going to agree with @Yokai Theater and say additionally that with Shadowbane/UO/AsheronsCall/DAoC/Conq Blade/Darkfall/Darkfall Unholy War being the PvP heavyweight kings that they definitely deserve a look at for inspiration when it comes to PvP.
With that said, I think the best titles should be taken for the best systems.
Just like I think a class of class kits are being inspired from too few titles.
Additionally I think the classes could use inspiration from their class kits from a broad range of titles such as those I listed above and other titles like TERA, Smite, Predecessor etc. Lots of great ways to be inspired to create classes and a lot of that will address the mindless zerging.
Strategy, Tactics, Risks, and being out of our comfort zone should be rewarded over the feelings of being safe in numbers; zerging has the least amount of strat, tactics, and risk involved and should be the least rewarded playstyle. And a lot of kit variation will address @Barab 's concern with zerging if implemented properly.
There are just way more titles than WoW/GW1+2/AA/and Lineage to draw from that did systems and class kits in a superior way.
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
Great stream folks. Having played lineage 2 and many other similar pvp games, darkfall, eve, asherons call etc, i'm very excited for this game.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
This game is far more complex than most so i hope someone is going to add all the info to a wiki or whatever to let guild leaders know specifics on how to do certain things and the and all of the details they need to know. Yes i already know there is a wiki however i just hope all the info is there concerning these things.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
In large battles in any game its usually a cluster Fuk with everything going on so anything that can negate that effect should be thought about. Simple things would help a lot for example. In the stream i heard Stephen asking for a raid invite. He shouldn't have to ask who the raid leader is. There should be some marking in the raid itself of who the raid leader is so everyone knows. Should be able to join any active raids / parties by looking at the guild tab. Main class icons in raid / party groups. Leader should be able to drag and drop people into different groups depending on their class. I also noticed the tank walls. Would be nice to have enemy tank walls in red and friendly ones in blue for example.
One concern i have is that in large battles theres so much visual effects going on its difficult to tell what is actually going on at times. I hope there is a way to lower the visual effects of animations / spells etc. e.g. high / mid / low visual effects settings
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Having played mostly pvp games i'm all for mass pvp however my biggest concern is about the non mass pvp. I know Stephen played Lineage 2 and my concern is for people taking advantage of systems such as: Ganking people trying to leave a node or returning to one.; spawn camping etc. Another thing that drives people away from pvp games are those who exploit certain areas and there is no recourse available without ruining your rep, going 'red', losing items etc while seeming not accomplishing anything to remove bad actors from the area, such as 'farmers for gold /items" I certainly hope this topic is well thought out....
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
The objectives in the stream seemed to be good for that part, so it seems you're going in the right direction there. I wouldn't make the requirements for participating too extreme or no one will want to participate.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams? expectations lead to divorce
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war? Node wars could be set days in advance with a warning giving to each side so they can prepare. It should announce the specific day and time. The time shouldn't be able to be set for 2 am for example either. There could be smaller wars that don't impact the node too much, like losing the farm as it were. Small wars could be more often with less consequences to take care of trash talking guilds or 'greifers' etc. A small war for guilds that grief areas etc should be possible without loss to reputation etc, however there needs to be a way to to deal with groups of griefers that choose to not make a guild for the purpose of griefing / controlling areas or resources. There should be NO incentive for those that are not part of a guild to grief or engage in pvp or control areas with resouces.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
The rewards should be very substantial in order to get the most participation.
I thought everything looked good for the most part, minus the things you don't want feedback on. I think you're on the right track. I like the territory control node war type. Siphoning XP and gold from an enemy node's poi seems like something worth fighting for, but not necessarily overly punishing or rewarding for either side. Should be easy to adjust and balance too by changing the values and duration of the xp/gold siphoned.
I like that there's going to be other types of node wars. Different reasons to go to war. I hope the system doesn't pigeonhole you into fighting the same couple of nodes over and over but instead gives some reason to war nodes in various different places.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
Pve/Pvp balance in that war seemed fine. It was a fight over a literal pve poi if I'm not mistaken, including the mobs within it, and a race to gather the blood and the crystals etc. I'd like to see a variety of different pve/pvp balances across the war types. And you can certainly get more exotic with it than what was shown. Just don't get super weird with it either though lol.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
My ideal expectation for mass battles is that zerging is punished/disincentivized through objectives and through class combat skills. I also don't like overly slow, trudging pvp. For example where you have two opposing groups of players, and one can't finish the other off before respawns just naturally trickle back in, in an endless cycle. I like there to be some resolution, advancement of the lines, push and pull on the battlefield. As opposed to just blob group neverending standoffs. Give us the ability to make plays.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
It depends on how other systems are tuned. How prevalent is the pvx from the open world flagging system. From guild wars. Caravans. When I play pvx games, I like to pvx. I'd be fine with node wars every day, in general. Multiple, ongoing simultaneously. Just depends on the other systems as far as frequency. Though I think there's weight to a node war. It's not just two guys fighting over a grind spot. It's an impactful event. There will be decision making and a cost that goes into it, so frequency should line up in a way that makes sense with that. The objective event's impact in a war - I don't know. Obviously since the war continues outside of those objective events, the non event part also needs to have an impact on the larger war. No idea what the weight of each should be, too many unknowns right now.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Enough and of a type that makes them worth fighting for and makes you legitimately care and want to win the war. Enough that it stings a fair bit when you lose. Not so much that it's utterly demoralizing to lose. But anything really, whatever type of reward makes sense with the structure and economic model of your game. It should be good rewards I think, but not so much that it trivalizes other reward structures in the game.
I'll start off by providing some brief answers to the prompts, then go into some more organically developed, in depth feedback.
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
Overall, I'm feeling positive. I think there's a lot of room for further growth, expanding the ideas, adding more complexity and time investment to the war events, but overall I like the added complexity to node wars beyond just sieges.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
There seems to be quite a wide range of reasons to be interested in the system, based off the potential rewards for victory and penalties for failure that node wars will involve. I like strategic, large scale, multiplayer encounters. PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. As long as they're long and large in scale, with several types of objectives to pursue and choices to be made.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
The odd, out of place nature of the Godspike concerns me, and the objectives in general. Nothing seems to have any purpose for being there. This could be explained in a blog post, but I need to see it and feel it in the game world. I think I'd much prefer more unique, curated objectives based off the point of interest I'm fighting over. It really just felt like a bunch of placeholder objectives. As the systems get more fleshed out, I think these events will need a lot of love from the world design team with additional assets and NPCs/mobs to make them feel more fleshed out and organically occurring rather than transparently 'game-y'.
Obviously, y'all were trying to fit the event into a showcase, so I understand if things are currently tuned to the short side, but I really feel that systems this consequential should be deeper and longer in scale. The activity space was a good size, but the event lacked depth, and was too short for my taste. I'll go into more detail on this later.
Not really the focus of the showcase, but the more I see of characters and armor/weapons in the game, the more I'm becoming concerned about the game's color palette, or rather, the lack thereof. This also involves the ability VFX, but I know y'all are always working on those. Generally, certain things that shouldn't be too eye catching are drawing all of my attention. What's with the NERF brand traffic cone / YInMn blue plate armor and weapon dyes? Electric Blue Razz ICEE hair dye? I understand it's a fantasy game, but man, that sort of thing is super distracting and honestly ruins the aesthetic of the game for me. Visual and color design in Ashes has been kind of all over the place for a while now, but up until recently, most of the oddities were with creature and mount designs that stuck out from the world like a sore thumb from a color/design standpoint. Now the players and some NPCs are, too. I think some of that needs to be reigned in. If you paint a picture with every single color at the art supply store with the flora looking like a Bierstadt and the Fauna looking like a Van Gogh, it starts to lose any kind of meaning.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Honestly, not really. The closest thing would be GW2 WvWvW, but that's quite massive in scale and solely point-control focused, if I remember correctly. Y'all are in uncharted territory, as far as I'm concerned. Best practice is pull the best from the best, I think. Make the events rich and complex with lots of avenues for player choice on how to pursue objectives, create more opportunities to screw with the enemy team, give the system some leeway for push and pull rather than a head to head race. These all create a grander, more epic encounter that makes victory all that much more satisfying and defeat that much less quick and decisive.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Love it. Bring it on! Let's get messy! The part that makes it fun for me is the impact it has on day-to-day activities. The only part that concerned by was VFX readability and color palette, but y'all are already on that from what I saw of the recent mage update.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
Perhaps something like 25/75 - 50/50, depending on the type of event and how it involves the part of the world it takes place in, always leaning in favor of the PvP aspect. Most of the work being put in should have some blend of the two, but there should be room for PvP focused players to have their fun and PvE focused players to contribute.
For example, I think every event should start with an NPC-driven caravan defense phase that brings each node's base camp supplies to the encounter. This creates opportunities for each team to try and delay the enemy on their way to the event, and makes the event feel like it's really happening. The supplies everyone gave are being loaded up into multiple wagons at the caravansary and being escorted by several guards all the way to the fight zone. The base camp needs 5-10 minutes to finish getting set up without having progress impeded by NPC enemies or enemy players. This is a great opportunity for both PvE and PvP, as well as an opportunity for everyone to get their friends attention so everyone can get online before the main event kicks off.
There can be ways to farm some additional resources in the area that can be turned in at the basecamp to fortify it against enemy players or to purchase items that can be utilized in the field for attack, defense, or expedited primary resource gathering that can give PvE centric players something to help out with that's not as hotly contested as the primary objectives. Attacks can be launched on the enemy's basecamp to hinder their progress. Favor can be curried with local neutral parties to win their support and gain NPC patrols that help fight for you, unlock shortcuts for getting around the map, or spawn useful resources more often. Winning the area can involve needing to take down one, or even multiple NPC bosses, or doing so can at least push your progress forward. All of these would create valuable opportunities for PvE that would inevitably lead to a PvX mixture. I would really challenge the team to let their imaginations run wild on all the PvX potential that can be packed into these event zones as development pushes forward to maximize 'war event epicness'.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I suppose a large combination of all the things I just mentioned would be awesome to have all together for mass player battles. When you have a good variety of avenues to pursue victory through, it will naturally split large raid groups into a blend of large and small groups. Some players will want to stage strategic attacks on the enemy's basecamp and ignore PvE objectives, perhaps a large group wants to take on a PvE boss, maybe 2-3 players want to focus on currying favor from locals to get some patrol squads going or resource generation increase on the half of the map closer to your base camp. Thinking in terms of one type of event vs the other can be fine in a few cases, but I hope most of these events will host a hybrid of the two objective types.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
Hard to say for sure at this point, but I wouldn't mind being in a new war campaign once or twice a month where the better part of a week has 3-6 events split between the campaign duration. Perhaps the length and intensity of the campaign is tied to the seriousness of the affair. Siphoning some exp for a week? Maybe not WWIII territory. Having your node de-leveled if you lose? That should be a major campaign.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
What was already mentioned in the showcase for node-wide benefits were all great ideas.
I like the idea of having special bosses spawn in new territories of control - perhaps their summoning could be tied to whatever the organically formulated objectives in the event zone were? You fight throughout some haunted wood in order to activate the massive gem collecting dust atop a mysterious tower at the center of the desolation in order to gain some power for your node, only to find out that the initial activation of the tower ages ago was what wrought the damage to begin with, and it spawns a new PvE-centric event, increasing the power and multitude of the ghostly defenders throughout the woods and summoning the dark wizards who built the mysterious tower many silent years ago.
Perhaps winning an event is what gives you favor with the local NPC residents, and they open up temporary lines of business with the node for NPC node caravans, trade skill knowledge, ingredient sales, etc.
All the rest:
Mayoral Commissions
I like the current concept for mayoral commissions. Looking at some of the examples right now, I’m left to wonder how they’ll interact with the environment management system. When a mayor starts handing out exp for hunting fish and game, or gathering mass quantities of gatherables, that’s sure to have an impact on the environment state of the node’s ZOI. Of course, they could be sourced elsewhere, but I’m sure most people will take the easy route and go local. Is th land management system still intended to be implemented in the final product? Will mayors then have to consider the potential impacts that giving out these sorts of commissions will have on the node’s land management score? That would make for some interesting decision making pros and cons. New commissions dynamically spawning into the mayor’s hand based on how the node is developed is great.
More importantly, what happens when the mayor disregards certain commissions in their hand? For example, what if Steven had chosen NOT to pursue Goblin Gatherings? Do the goblins in the ZOI have their own internal counters and timers that dictate further expansion and increase in power if enough time passes without them being beaten down? I think these mayoral commissions should be looked at conceptually not only as something the mayor gets to throw out to their citizens without consequence, but also as a sort of collection of reports the mayor receives from their theoretical team of advisors. However, they have to pick and choose when and where to focus their resources (the citizens) in order to most effectively meet the needs of the collective. Sometimes, things fall through the cracks. Taking care of a few goblin camps doesn’t seem like a big deal when you have wars and economic rivals on your doorstep, and then before you know it, you have a horde of goblins overrunning nearby POIs and threatening to siege your node to de-level some of your buildings. This, to me, would make being mayor more of a strategy game with consequences and risk/reward in itself rather than an easy chore of “pick a few commissions I guess, whatever.” It would also encourage mayors to be engaged on a daily basis to ensure they don’t miss important commissions to get game-spawned ZOI problems under control.
Node Wars
I will say I was hoping to see the node siege mechanics in this showcase, but I think I’m happy to see that y’all are actually making node wars more varied and targeted in nature(?). It feels more game-y and less serious, in a way, but it is a game at the end of the day. Giving more opportunities for players to get involved in big PvP events that have noticeable impacts on day-to-day gameplay and overall node development is good.
I think the event could be made far more interesting by making it a multi-stage process rather than just “go here and do the thing.” For example, each side needs a base camp, right? So to start off, each node needs to successfully escort an NPC caravan to their side of the event and defend the base camp construction before they can begin collecting resources. The caravan of several wagons, as well as the 5-10 minute base construction animation could be assailed by NPC enemies or by enemy players to try and lengthen your startup time. Next, the resource collection and event objectives begin, and finally, there’s the primary objective capture. This series of phases would make it feel more like your whole node is going through the process of actually going to a war, from the caravansary to the fields of victory (or defeat) rather than just showing up for a scheduled PvP event down the road and going back home.
Resource collection through multiple sources is a good start. A bit simple, but a good start. That being said, showing the resource spawns on the map, even just some of them, is a horrible idea imo. I get that you’re trying to initiate conflict by leading people on opposite teams to the same places, but it completely removes a layer of strategy to the game that you’re setting up. Imagine if imbued material spawns were totally random, and not marked on the map. What would you do as the raid leader? Should some people just be scouts? Should you split up into roving groups? Circulate the map as a zerg? This will also lend more purpose to players with flying or gliding mounts, as they’d make far better spawn scouts and shot callers. Perhaps, as the event progresses, players could harvest other materials that can be used to buy special items from their base camp, like a device that can be activated to produce a hot/warm/cold meter at the top of their screen telling them when they’re heading in the direction of imbued materials within a certain measured zone around themselves. Don't just immediately jump to player convenience. Automated convenience is the enemy of player choice and the impact of those choices.
Overall, while I understand the event had to be short in order to be shown on a livestream, I think they need to be quite a bit longer and more involved. I don’t think anyone mentioned that it was artificially shortened for the sake of the showcase, but this strikes me as an event in the node war that should last maybe 3-4x this long from start to finish. Why would I contribute to the start of a war if the chance of me being free to join in on any given PvP event was as slim as a random one hour window with 24 hours notice? This has the potential to bring back some of the epic war campaign feelings that old school WoW’s Alterac Valley had. You jump in and out as you’re available, pitching in here and there. You might see the end of some events and not others, but you did your part, had your fun, and got your reward, as long as you were free at some point during those multi-hour-long events in the campaigns. Not everyone works a 9-5, and just because there's "a hot spot" of player activity on a given server doesn't mean everyone wanting to join on the fun will be free on a specific one hour window within a day's notice. Besides, it's incredibly difficult to give events of such a short length the depth and complexity that I think they deserve and should have to feel impactful and properly fleshed out.
The mayor buff ability is cool in concept. I like the aura glow in the AOE a lot but the gigantic glowing sword thing and the flags above Steven’s head were a bit extra. Could these buffs maybe incorporate Bards more? Perhaps, as a Bard citizen of a node, there’s a quest line or some other prerequisite you can go through in order to become a certified Bard of War for your node. This could give a smaller buff ability to any qualified Bard whenever they’re in the fray that stacks up on any given player to a certain level. So Bards could communicate with each other and strategically stack it all at once to get the same effect Steven’s mayor ability use had, or they can do it a bit more strategically without blowing all of their uses at once.
Being able to kill players for event materials before they make their turn in is good. Being able to kill special NPCs to increase the enemy’s primary objective progress is good. Going back to making these events long term things that require multiple stages, each of those stages should have their own objectives and available activities that can help your team or hinder the enemy. Killing things, harvesting things, buying special items from your base camp, destroying enemy locations, etc. Players should also be able to raid the enemy’s base camp for resources if it’s left undefended. Players could also spend some extra resources from around the area to buff their NPC guards and strengthen the initial caravan’d-in base camp setup.
A cool mechanic for channeling the final objective could be a sort of energy transfer between the player and the objective that protects the player channeling when they’ve been channeling for a longer period of time, like an energy shield. Right now, it seems like damage dealt doesn’t cancel the channel, but I really think it should. Maybe there can be a focus bar - going below half health cancels the channel or something? As for the energy shield to reward longer periods of channeling, let’s say if you channel for (x) seconds, you get a small energy shield that protects you from damage that would otherwise break your focus. If you channel for (2x) seconds, the damage shield grows and you become immune to stuns. If you channel for (3x) seconds, the damage shield grows once more, and you also become immune to knockbacks and other movement control effects, effectively becoming untargetable until your shield is destroyed. Would incentivize losing teams to keep a better eye on preventing the winning team from channeling for too long and make interrupting the channeler more of a “boss fight” esque encounter if they don’t.
Having a boss fight with cool loot spawn near the victory area is a fun idea, perhaps certain ones only spawn if the victory is done a certain way, if certain PvE events were successfully completed along the way, or the war event is achieved quickly enough? Hidden objectives players need to discover on their own are always fun.
Color Palette
I have to weigh in here and be honest in saying that I really, really dislike the wildly saturated jewel tone armor colors. For cloth wearers, some color is fine. Even at the 4:35 mark of the YouTube video, there’s an NPC called the Economic Node Vendor wearing a red coat with gold fringe, a goldenrod looking shawl with gold fringe, and a goldenrod hat. The colors are bright, but it’s all cloth, and they’re not wildly contrasted. They look nice. They look believable. And they’re toned down somewhat by black pants, a black waistcoat, and a white shirt. But holy smokes, the glaringly bright traffic cone orange on that steel plate set and some of the weapons, the super rich deep blue is so eye catching and out of place. It’s just too distractingly bright and saturated, it’s the only thing my eyes want to look at on the screen. Those kinds of colors really give modern PvP FPS vibes to me. Stylized games like WoW or GW2 can more easily get away with bright jewel toned armor, because they’re cartoony. But Intrepid has chosen to make this game hyper realistic looking, which makes goofy cartoon colors look particularly goofy. Same thing goes for hair colors. Some colored hair options are fine when they're realistically toned down, but giving people the whole color wheel is just absurd. Sure, there can be lore reasons to theoretically allow all of these things to be possible in a fantasy world, but I find it really ugly given the natural beauty of the setting and awfully distracting from the game world.
Running/Mount Animations
Is the running animation new? It looks really good. I love the animation for leaning into the direction you’re turning in. I really hope mounts will also be just as dynamic looking. I did notice Steven strafing on his horse at one point and it obviously wasn’t animated fully. Of course, horses can’t really strafe at full speed, so with that in mind, there really should be turning circles on mounts. I really, really hope all vehicles (mounts and ships) will have more complex movement than simple tank controls. GW2 mounts are the goal for those, for sure.
Maps
I won’t go into the same detail I have before, but again, I really hope that the main map that you open up a new window to view is more painterly. Players should not be given GPS levels of environmental detail on an entire world map that they pull out of their backpack. It works for a minimap though, since you can only see what you can more or less physically see on the map.
Also… “A Lost Map” showing up as a pinged icon on your backpack map? Why would a “hidden” treasure map show up for collection on your standard adventuring map? I beg of you, please minimize these omniscient map markers in your quest and interactive world design. Make players discover things and communicate again.
Health Bars
Not sure if this just hasn't been implemented fully one way or the other yet, but I find it a bit odd that NPC enemies show a ticking percentage of health with exact numbers, but players use chunks. I’d say pick one or the other for everything.
Mount Abilities
The team actually mentioned mount abilities this time - so I’ll ask once again for the team to clarify - will mount abilities be species-specific? And if so, will cosmetic skins for mounts only be applicable to currently owned mounts of the same species? Judging by what the developer discussing the topic was saying, it sounds like mount abilities are going to become very generic, so that there's no risk of janky cross-species mount abilities being performed by skinned mounts that wouldn't make sense to be seen from. It would be nice to know what the plan is one way or the other as the team begins exploring animal husbandry more.
Thanks for the showcase! It looks like y'all are starting to have a lot of fun testing out these gameplay systems. I only hope there'll be some "last call" 24 hour buy-in period at some point between now and the launch of A2 so I can do my part in helping to test it all.
After the very structured Archetype showcases, this felt definitely more chaotic with the amount of things going on, but I think that was largely okay since this is a dynamic event with lots of players doing possibly unpredictable things. The necessary information still came across, it was pretty fun to watch, I think it was great that you made the decision to make the showcase a bit longer too.
To me this was a great showcase and it displayed to me that so far things are coming together well.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
I think it is very interesting to have the ability to come together as a Node to fights in a way that actually makes the world around them different and therefore have impact. Even better, that we have different means by which we can win the conflict so even within the competition there seems to be room for the individual players to play this to their strengths. The recognition of the player as a primary driver of the server story just in itself excites me.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Concern: One thing that caught my eye was that when Steven was at the base camp he looked back to the people following close behind him. The players were far behind him but they looked like they moved in stop motion. I don't know if that was due to a setting to improve performance, hardware limitation or so, but IMO the characters were way too close to be not fully animated, since - if they were enemies - they could become highly relevant for PvP in just seconds.
Praise: The idea to have a mayor/faction select what kind of war they are declaring in itself is great since players would want to be play to thei own sides advantages. Talking about this showcase in particular to contest over the EXP of a certain POI to me is perfect. That is exactly the kind of things I was hoping to get from something PvX.
Praise: To not make the war of the POI EXP a simply clash of forces in a direct confrontation but instead create events around them looks like a very good idea to me and the different things shown seemed fun, diverse enough to appeal to different types of players and they made sense to me it did not feel like some janky minigame forcefully pressed into the game to tick a box.
Concern: This might fal into the category of "balancing" but with the goal of the war being to earn 1000 points, I at least felt like things progressed a bit too fast. If I remember right, One side managed to collect 150 points within the 1 hour, which would mean that if similar opportunities to earn points were to spawn during the war, it is over in one evening. If that assumption is correct it means that a well timed declaration of war leaves little time for the other side to react. If that is the intent, then I'd probably feel better about it if this was redefined as a "skirmish" to indicate that this is not supposed to be a drawn out event cluster. I feel a decleration of war should result in something that provides competitive opportuinities for a week. With the stakes as high as they are, I think having a 7-8 hour "war" seems a bit short, so I would look into whether the duration of the event lines up with the goal of actually competing over something.
Concern/Praise: While looking epic and brutal, I felt that like the visual effect of especially the Fighter really stood out a lot. I know magic works a bit different in Ashes but that felt like a bit much. On the other hand I think that the mages abilities looked great, if that is the direction we are going with all class skills I think this will look amazing once done!
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I guess Helldivers goes in that direction, which does fairly well, though that feels like a grindfest at some point.
I remember one of the Mass Effect games providing us with a "collect points" (in Mass Effect's case "resources to go to war against the machines") type of border to trigger the next part of the main quest and that worked quite well since the individual missions overall were rather interesting, so it felt fun and highly rewarding to maybe even go beyond what was expected of you. If the sub events of the war feel as engaging, I think we have ourselves a great system here.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
I have to say, I was a bit surprised how tame it actually was during the competition over the Godspike, with players trying to keep their distance from each other. Maybe this was due to the short notice but I would have espected maybe a squad of beef up tanks & fighters diving into the enemy lines to break them apart, but maybe fire was too focused to allow for that, coordination amongst the team wasn't strong enough or maybe support classes need something that provides enough sustain to survive the initial dive to break into enemy lines (or people didn't want to look like trolls on stream? XD). Anyways, it was much more tame than expected.
Beyond that with objective scattered around a POI like this I think the mass PvP allows for a lot of seemingly insignificant spots on the map to turn into crucial battlefields for players to fight over and prevent just mindless chaotic clusters of people bonking each other for no reason. This should create a much better basis for PvP and especially strategies.
With that being said, I don't think there is much more to say about it, too much is still in the unknown, but so far it looks like Mass PvP will be fun, meaningful and not just a random chaotic mess. Final judgements on that are still out.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
I think there is no problem with a 70:30 ratio in either direction as long as there is variety in that. It wouldn't be surprising for a religious Node prefer engaging in a PvE leaning war rather than a war where the goals are more directly confrontational in nature.
That being said, ultimately to a large degree players will decide how mugh PvP will happen during any type of competitive event, the best you as game designers can to is provide either to edjust the incentives for PvE and PvP to achieve the balance you see as appropriate or to provide players (e.g. mayors, bishops, kings and queens) with the ability to influence those via policies.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I think the easiest way to make small groups/guilds more effective is to make certain objectives within the greater conflict anti-zerg.
An artifact/traps towards an objective that makes more damage the more players with the same citizenship and/or are in the group/raid
narrow spaces that allow competing groups to activate traps that deal massive AOE damage
reduce individual rewards the more players are contributing to the objective (but make the objective itself valuable to the faction)
debuff those who contributed to clearing an objective that makes them lose out on benefits from bigger group activities (e.g. reducing buff benefits from raid members, reduce contribution gained from participating in raids - but increase benefits for other small group activities)
Small group missions/quests that unlock advantages to small groups only (not individuals, not raids)
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I think it would be cool to see one or two Node wars per month near the Node your reside in. Meaning it doesn't need to be your own Node be involved each time; maybe every once a month you compete with a neighbor over something and two weeks later you would go out as a mercenary to help in another Nodes conflict.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
I think distinct war related rewards would be awesome. This could include special military uniform skins, maybe special animations for effects like the rally ability of a mayor, unique war rations/camping sites that provide ranger-type camoflage while sitting in a warzone, titles & tattoos related to PvP, military and war, artisan recipies for military type buildings, memorial monuments in your Node/ on your freehold / in your guild hall / apartmanet and access to special PvX events where two armies contest a PvE objective in a siege (like "kill the dragon, transport its heart to your fortress and gain a relic/buff for your Node and citizens").
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Node Wars Preview shown during the May Development Update
I think the most important things in terms of balancing this right is ultimately to make it dynamic. If the world event system could adjust the rewards as well as frequency of subevent spawnrate from Node Wars depending on frequency of Node Wars overall VS citizen participation rate, then that would help a lot. Furthermore I think it might be worth looking into incentives for outsiders to participate in some way. for example by allowing characters without a citizenship to side temporarily with one faction and gain some rewards from that.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
The sorcerer killing affecting the channeling.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Hopefully the mechanics used are "easily" modded and reskinned to mix and match into future features. For
example having necromancer areas where you kill NPC X to hasten the channeled raising of NPC Y.
OR temporarily buff a player of your choice with select abilities of sacrificed creatures.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Time gated events and those happening only at certain times/weekdays. Without possibility to affect them by the players.
Pro's
I've never seen systems in an MMO who are as well-developed and engaging as in Ashes and the game is still pre Alpha. BRAVO!!!
I like that combat and pvp in ashes looks to be more like strategy, knowledge about your skills and build and cunning. I've played other MMO's where your skill level was determent by practice in fast pace combat, making you perform multiple actions per second (sweat lord style) with fights that could be over in 3 sec. I'm glad ashes is not that kind of game.
I like that players and NPC have the same kind of stats, making the same gear relevant in both PVE and PVP
cons
I am concerned that in its current set up, attacking parties will always have a massive advantage because they can set up their raid group and declare war at 4am at night, and win virtually unopposed. Or at least get a head start.
I think there should be term limits to becoming mayor! Or perhaps a system where the one who has invested the most to the node gets the title for a term. (most commissions/donations/time invested)
otherwise, the same guild leaders will always have the most votes/money etc. to be the mayor every time.
It is a game after all and I think everybody should be able to enjoy all of its content!
How will you prevent monopolies?
These health bar blocks I see on enemies, I'm not a fan. It inhibits our ability to be as effective as possible. Capping our skills as a player.
Final thoughts
Considering you have taken a lot of inspiration from good old lineage2, I was wondering if you would consider another aspect of L2 i enjoyed. The so-called "soul gems/spirit gems" where you could buy gems that you can use before an attack to enhance the power of that attack. Giving you the option to spend money for an extra boost to your power for more difficult content?
Will we be able to use siege equipment during war types like the one we've just seen?
the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
Ok, bear with me as I am typing on my phone. What if nodes and guilds that participated in node wars earned pennants? Think about it. You get a small pennant that attaches to your guild or node banner with the colors of the node war you fought in ( with maybe a little embellishment if your side won or lost). As your node/guild fought in more wars you’d end up with this massive set of pennants and it would be this great testament of what your guild/node accomplished.
0
Options
SolunaMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The HP bar thing is killing the game for me If an opponent has 1 percent health, I react differently than if they have 25 percent health. I need to know how close he is to death in order to judge whether it's worth going into battle with a movement ability, firing off a skill and quickly leaving, or whether I'll die because I don't need one , but need 3 or 4 skills, and until then his friends are there. Plus, after a long cast, it's incredibly unsatisfying not even knowing how much damage I've made because the bar doesn't move at all. Whether it's Albion, Archeage, Guild Wars 2 or anything else, I always see the life and impact of my skills everywhere.
ooff... Thanks a lot for bringing this up! As someone who has been following and supporting this game since kickstarter, I have to admit that I´ve actually never noticed that! (I probably paid too much attention to other things...)
I fully agree with you and I absolutely hope this will be changed! I´d love to know other people´s opinions on this, so maybe we can open a separate thread for this?
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
It was nice to see how well Servers manage to handle so many ppls in 1 spot. After NDA drop we’ve found out that You have some problems at first 3 testings but later as always IS was fast to fix this issues
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Building city with fellow citizens. Personaly I think mayor comissions, mandates, votes and all this jazz is little to much and sound like full time job but I hope there are players who like this stuff.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview?
Stuggering animations 15m away from player worried me a little bit but I have faith its just alpha problems. Ranger green shots way to bright.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Can’t wait to participate. Honestly its hard to give opinion without playing it.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I like direction for small teams have different things to and objectives. Hope gathers have some bonuses to pick Cristals faster for example.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
Every 4 Seasons so we have time to gather all resources.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Beside xp for node and passive bonuses It would be nice to Mayor to pick this Godspike for few days:)
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
Overall great livestream on super promising concept, only hightening the huge hopes for the game suitable for L2 veteran.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Potential for player driven politics and huge space for forming strategic guild driven alliances.
Is there anything in particular you’re concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
It's little bit connected to UI, but I will write it anyway, as it mainly focus some kind of directional decission too. I'm mostly concerned about the current approach to the raid organization system with the large-ugly shared HP bars across the whole raid. For me and my gaming team mates it was one of the biggest disadvantage of Archeage, and the system of more independant parties federation that was present in Lineage 2 raiding was superior. Primarly, party UI is much more managable for healers, where on the raid there are just too many people on the single screen to effectively care about all the states/debuffs. Moreover, party federations raiding system from Lineage 2 was highly encouraging "e-sport" like practicioning on the teamwork party level, as well as giving small teams their identity to be the part of the raid and remain well-coordinated team that know each other perfectly. It probably may be addressed by having some crucial abilities party-only targeting and tweaks for making party more prominent across the raid panel as well. I think that the worst part of Archeage was that the party role in raid was completely erased (it was even often beneficial to swap party squads for raid leaders to keep healers in single "space" and so on)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Flying mount owned by Node leader was absolutely awesome, the concept was present in Lineage 2 with Wyverns for Castle owners, but the implementation was lacking the debth and unfortunately the potential was never used there. On the AoC stream on the other hand it already was super cool and could result in some most memorable moments ever possible in MMO. Super rare-elite mounts with relevant role in game is just brilliant idea. Please continue this path.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
- Guild Wars 2 WvWvW - terrible system from my point of view, I would use it as a reference how not to do it.
-- it was continous 24/7, impossible to keep a focus and care about that
-- it was scaled (I think level/gear scaling it the cancer of the industry)
-- it had performance problems
-- sides of conflict were artificial (I hate factions in general and strongly believe in players formed "factions" by their own will, which is probably main reason I sticked oberving AoC)
On the other hand, although not strictly compared to Node Wars, Lineage 2 castle sieges system was very fun mostly because it was concerned on player driven politics; it never had any fancy mechanics, but people were truly preparing for them and even adjusting real life plans, to have the possibility to take the part of them. I think that prioritizing player driven politics and adding some more modern gameplay is the biggest opportunity to become an outstanding MMO for visible niche on the market for AoC.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
I'd say that's important to create such a flow that every objective can be effectively interrupted by the opposite team, but also to create the possibility of completing the objective against successful defense (it's very easy to ruin that by creating too many/too close ressurection points); But to be precise, I do not mean that there should'nt be possibility to have N iterations of such defense&attack, but rather trying to point out, that the system should not be deadlock architectured that it's too easy to interrupt and almost impossible to finish, so the winning side is determined by the fact who will be bored first.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
Very tough question, but in general there should be side-off strategic objectives giving visible advantages, so the diversity would be little big higher than only zerg vs zerg on single spot. It would be perfect if at some point, the need for having some small coordinated strike groups would be substantial giving the possibility to shine for strategist leader, while it would be nice to have the "zergs" meetup at some point and the end. More or less, I would say, it was even designed on stream this way.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I'd say that really tough ones should not be more frequent than once per two weeks, as it's quite important, so it will stay relevant and wouldn't feel routine, but small objectives ones probably could have higher frequency.
Other unrelated feedback:
I think it's a very good approach to have a descrete HP bar on enemies instead of exact number, it gives additional debth to the fight.
extra feedback piece: Vaulting should be tied to pressing shift, you shouldn't automatically vault/climb. That can make gameplay clunky when you just want to jump over things, that should only activate when pressing shift or some other keybind that you can customize
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
I've worn contacts for 25 years and scratching or blistering on the eye is the worst.
Preview was awesome. Enjoyed how the teams were forced to break up the group. I am also a fan of these systems not being an all the time thing. I think constantly being forced to log in because you have important battles would be exhausting.
I am a little concerned about apathy from players. Essentially choosing to ignore because they simply have other things they want to accomplish or achieve.
Played alot of Wars in New World and Crowfall. You will definitely need indicators of enemy spells or effects. Dieing because you couldn't find the right one always feels bad. Greying out or highlighting might work
Really want to see organizational tools. I don't war to herd cats! New World always annoyed the crap out of me with their lack of tools. Raid leaders and officers need them! Few ideas I have below ;
Raid wide messages, popping up on the screen.
Pings that maybe show a travel path to them? click and drag a group icon to a point on the map indicating on the mini map where that group needs to be. Each group should have its own icon. Raid/War leaders can set these and should be raid wide but only the travel path is shown for that group only. Maybe can even set multiple sort of like directions for a patrol or rotation.
Role selection should be a requirement as well not an option.
Mass PVP is some of those most exciting content anyone will get, big stakes mean big wins and losses. It can also be one of the worst experiences ever if done poorly, every battle decided by who has the largest force just sucks. Its ok to a point but theres a line when it just becomes silly and pointless. Performance is obviously huge.
Crowfall had both of these issues.
New world had controlled player wars but we're super restrictive.
I think AoC devs are the real Quad A devs because it seems like they get it.
Personally I think Albion Online has the BEST mass pvp of any mmo (maybe even game?) out there. It has its own problems of course but the gameplay of it is wonderful. I have played the game for several years, made some guides for it, ran an end game guild + shotcalled for it, and done hundreds of hours of mass pvp theorycrafting. I'd like to share that experience here since it relates to the mass pvp.
As a quick side note, not seeing healthbars move when you do damage is WEIRD. I know what Steven said about it but I don't really understand.
(Mass pvp problem 1) The whole node war thing, great. No problems from me. PvE side objectives, get everyone involved, citizens are flagged. Fantastic. I am worried about the actual mass pvp engagements though. I know the fights we saw were unorganized but it reminded me of turtle fights in alterac valley. Everyone sits in two big clumps and throw spells at each other. None of the aoes have any impacts. There is no "play making". The only people that get killed are the ones that overextend or if one side outnumbers/out blanket aoe's the other. While this is a spectable, there's nothing strategically interesting happening here. Stand in the heals, press wide aoe damage. The main spells that I saw doing significant damage were single target spells like snipe. So in my head that implies that you would win by essentially organizing snipe squads that try to pick off healers so you can win the attrition war. But do we really want single target spells to dominate our mass pvp? And of course I know we haven't seen everything yet. Like what does it look like when 5 mages blink in, cone of cold into blizzard? I can assure you, ashes mass pvp fights will not be like alterac valley in wow, where you queue up with 40 random people and theres no coordination. We (players) have years of experience in our various games coordinating these kinds of things.
(Mass pvp problem 2) The second problem is melee (dps and tanks). Obviously, melee cannot do damage without jumping in. How do they survive the blanket aoe? What stops them from dying to just auto attacks? If 100 people auto attack you, even if it only does 10 damage each, thats 1000 damage. Which is about what the people in the vod had besides Steven. You could tune the blanket aoe damage to be low enough to not destroy the melee but then why do those spells even exist? Why have ranged at all then? Like the ranger ran of arrows thing. I forget what its called but the big barrage of bright green that showers over the enemy. Does that even DO damage? Why does it exist?
Quick aside, do tanks in ashes even do anything? They conjure a wall (pretty good), and then reduce damage for their teammates. So they aren't really tanks, they're just supports. Big oof.
Back to Albion Online. Albion addresses problem 1 with "AoE Escalation". Excluding bugs, all spells do more damage when they hit more players up to a cap. So its something like 1 target: 100% damage. 2 targets: 105% damage. 4 targets: 120% damage. 10 targets: 200% damage. This does a couple things. 1. We can have aoe spells that can nearly one shot people in mass pvp but are pretty bad in 1v1s. 2. It is no longer good enough to just blindly press your aoe buttons and do blanket aoe damage. If you want your damage to count, you need to hit multiple people. And this probably means you need to coordinate with your teammates to land CC. In Albion we also have 'clumping' abilities. Black holes that suck everyone together type of thing. This also gives tanks another job. One person clumps the enemies, another stuns the clump, the dps hits the clump. Big damage. Now the other side knows you are going to do this. So now they have coordinated defensives. Its no longer good enough to just blanket heal. You need targeted and well-timed defensives, burst heals, and cleanses. Coordinating cooldowns also tends to create an offense/defense pattern that revovles around cooldowns. Albion is moba-like in its combat with only 4 abilities that tend to be 4s/15s/30s cds. The 30 sec cds are the big hitters. Since they need to be coordinated, it tends to lead towards one side going on offense and using their cds, then going on the defensive while they wait for cds. This gives the other side an opportunity to go on the offensive while they know the first zerg is on cooldown. Creates a bit of back and forth.
For problem 2, we have "Focus Fire Protection". This acts sorta like the opposite of aoe escalation. The more enemies you get hit by, the less damage you take. While this does counteract some of the damage bonus you get from aoe escalation, having more people will always do 'more' damage. But what this does is it makes it so that melee dps and tanks do not instantly die to ambient/random blankt aoe damage. Or auto attacks. Once you've taken a bit of damage from multiple people you become quite tanky and can sufficiently exist as a frontline for your team. Melee dps can run into the enemy backline and exist there for a little bit until the enemy focuses coordinated damage onto them. At which point they need to use defensives/mobility to escape.
Between the two mechanics, it is technically better to hit with as few people as possible but having them be as buffed up/glass cannon as possible. There's not really a dps meter in albion so most of the math is 'feely crafted' which is great imo. I hate how much of WoW is just letting a computer do some math for you to tell you whats best.
The main point of all this that there is strategy not only in the objective but the actual gameplay. Dealing meaningful damage requires working with your team. There is strategy around cooldown trading. There is thought put into how much dps you have vs how many supports and what kind. Tanks have a role as playmakers with CC and clump making and not just as defensive supports. Some zergs go melee heavy and try to rely on focus fire protection to out-attrition you with bruisers. Some are more kite-y. There are bomb squads and counter-bomb squads. Individual players have the opportunity to show their skill in a variety of different ways.
You don't have to copy albion online if you don't want to, but I'd hate to see the mass pvp be people just throwing blanket aoes that don't do any damage by themselves, abduct/single target metas to be able to kill anyone.
General feeling on the node wars preview:
It is definitely in the right direction. It will need some additional love on the performance side especially if the target is to support hundreds of players fighting but, as stated, this is already being worked on.
Regarding the complexity of Sieges/Node Wars:
I would like to see keeping a slightly different mentality between mass pvp events in order to maintain variety while keeping the idea of mass pvp in the center. For example:
Node wars design should remain as is with multiple pvx objectives for players to take part it regardless of whether they are pvp or pve focused. This will ensure that different kinds of players (even if not on the same guild) will have the interest in participating.
However, I do feel like castle sieges should be more focused on pvp without too much extra complexity and objectives. One good example would be Lineage 2 castle sieges where the only objective was to take the castle through "praying" in the inner room of the castle. That would make a good base idea which could be expanded with some additional objectives like building siege weapons, as stated in the past, but it should remain faily simple so players can focus on pvp and the castle itself.
Running around a huge map to do multiple different objectives like killing bosses for buffs, gathering resources from 5-10 places etc in addition to already doingthat in node wars is something that might become repetitive.
Frequency of mass pvp events:
I feel like an ideal frequency for such events would be either 2 different events each weekend (e.g. node wars on saturday and sieges on sunday) or at least one alternating per weekend (e.g. node wars first saturday and sunday, sieges on the next saturday and sunday etc). For extra variance, different locations should host these events at different days/weekends but should not overlap or have too many one after the other.
To sum up:
Node wars preview was excellent and the pvx idea is well designed and should echo with most players.
Castle sieges should not follow the same pvx design and focus more on pvp and the castle itself with fewer objectives.
These events should take place every weekend preferably in an alternating schedule so players have something different to look forward to each weekend.
[*] Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview?
Concerned:
1) I don't like that Node War events contain PvE activities: fighting bandits, harvesting rubies...
If objectives are needed, I would prefer "war" specific objectives, like
- destroying guard towers which the opposing node builds over time to protect their caravans or players nearby
- destroying and looting material storage points which are used to build guard towers
2) I don't like that there is no gear durability loss during such events. I'd say this bothers me more than the PvE activity above.
3) I don't like the possibility to take away temporarily mayorship from the other node.
Excited:
1) I like that the war is structured into more stages with node war events in each stage.
2) I like the other rewards mentioned: service denial, stealing XP, taking relics away.
3) I like that outside the prime time those players are permanently flagged (as always mentioned by wiki)
Oh and I would be super remiss not to mention- having all of those devs on stream (even if it is a rare occurrence with a bigger showcase like we're seeing) was AWESOME. Highlight of the stream for me for sure was the early discussion of the systems and how they're designing them having various stakeholders chip in- don't know how often that can happen but let me stress how cool it was to see.
Wow.
The PvP is already looking really good. I especially like the amount of line of sight the terrain gives you. In terrain like that, you can set up traps that are actually hard to spot, which makes PvP much more strategic and interesting. I also like the dragon adding to that strategic aspect by being able to coordinate since he can see over the line of sight and spot enemies more early.
I also really like the verticality of the terrain and how it interacts with abilities like the wall closing. I feel like this is a perfect canvas to use full coordination and strategy to beat a larger force that's less coordinated. The terrain could also breed different PvP cultures. For example, in the desert where it's more open, it's more about numbers, but in the Pyrai forest, it's more about splitting your enemy and luring him into traps where you have local superiority or a surprise effect to get an advantage.
The ability colors are looking great. I especially like some of the green, red, and purple tones.
I think the mass PvP has the right amount of chaos, some but not too much. I think it's good that it's a mix of PvP and PvE, and I think the ratio should be somewhere around 65% PvP / 35% PvE during the battle, but with preparation around 50/50 to 40% PvP / 60% PvE.
For the empyre !!!
1
Options
ZekethephoenixMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
Something I'd like to see for smaller team viable objectives is NPC caravans or caravan-like moving objectives to multiple places on the map. And make these very important to take down. Having caravans full of ballistas or even explosives on both sides would make for amazing side objectives beyond killing a single strong npc. Especially if these side objectives were far from each other, making it hard to zerg all of them.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
I think rewards should include commendations useable to purchase "PVP" gear, mounts, etc. being able to choose your reward sounds better than random loot drops. Maybe decent chunks of gold too.
It would also be kinda funny if the winning team unlocked a temporary buff they can cast and reuse as many times as they want for 24 hours. Making world content easier for the winners for a short time. Maybe something as small as a non stacking buff of 3% increase to a stat. Maybe the type of stat could be reflected by what type of node that was destroyed.
Comments
Because the "node wars" seem to happen in zones of the one who got war declared only right? and not in both zones, is that it? Then i suppose not only node 2 should be able to defend, but maybe counter attack declaring wars within node 1 territory zone. And also like other nearby nodes should be able to war even if node 1 and 2 are on war?
Not every mayor is going to be a great battle strategist and this could enable the node to choose a "commander". That said, I guess this could play into the node politics and become a portion of the decision making for the citizens when it comes to electing a mayor.
also, please give more mobility/defense for the healer, a divine blink and a skill that pushes surrounding enemies away would greatly improve its kit
- Not sure if you consider this as an UI thing. Sorry if you do. The Commission Turn In Box probably needs another confirmation dialog (at min 11:06) where you select which comission you want to submit your resources to. It looks like right now you turn in everything you can with the resources you have and maybe the player only wants to complete one of the commmissions.
- Consider renaming "War Type" to "Casus Belli". I think it's more immersive, more fitting and cooler overall.
About the war:
- I like how the final objective around the channel thingy is a big large scale battle and the prior objectives on the other hand requires splitting the raid and a bit more strategy. It's good to have both.
- Those smaller objectives could maybe be a bit more interesting that looting some regular NPCs and farming some things.
- I worry about the role of melee classes in big battles, specially Fighters. If they charge in, they die. If they don't, they do nothing. It's cool that all classes are different but you need to think of something for them to do in these situations.
Overall it looked nice and like something I would like to play. The mix between PvE objectives and Pvp is nice, but I think that some PvP objectives could be had even in stage 1. If I understood correctly players only drop blood or material when they got that before. Which is fine, but maybe have players drop a third thing. Ears are always great.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Fighting for my own node, battling other players, making a name. Server pride was a thing back in the days, i miss it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
My biggest concern is player numbers. How do you prevent a zerg node to roll over smaller ones? I didnt see a player limitation for this node war? This would make it very boring for both sides of the war but depending on the rewards the bigger node might still want to do it over more "fair" battles.
The second concern would be dying. From what I have observed the "corpse run" wasnt very long. So killing an enemy player wasnt that impactful. We dont need a 20min+ corpse run back to emain macha like in DAoC back in the days, but being back in a minute or less makes it feel irrelevant. "Choices matter" is a big plus in my book. Dying isnt necessarily a choice buuuuut. You know?
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Steven talked about relics. The old DAoC had relics too and the concept was pretty awesome. Three factions, every faction had 2 relics. One relic gave 10% physical damage other gave 10% magical damage for the entire faction (in PvE and PvP). To steal a relic of an opposing faction you need to raid their relic keep and bring it back to one of your relic keeps. It was fun as hell and made the game for quite some time as it created a faction pride and a reason to work together as a faction and such. Nodes could have something similar.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Mass PvP is nice as long as it doenst desolve to spamming big aoes on the opposing zerg. Sure some classes wont have a good time in mass PvP, but if the corpse run routes are long enough classes like rogues could have their place around the mass PvP. Ganking their respawns, scouting for information and such.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
50/50 is fine but objectives being more PvE is fine as long as they are placed in an confrontational area.
Looking at this map the green areas are kinda non combat areas. They are too far away for one side to fight for them. I would move the camps a bit further ways, maybe have one "green" point but mostly have red points where boths factions of the node war fight over.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I like the idea of having several small teams that work together towards a goal. maybe a group or two together as a team and having several of those clearing different objectives. objectives here not only limited to whats in the log but also scouting the enemy, disrupting their teams doing objectives and so on.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I dont mind having node wars daily, but not from the same opponent. You should declare war/a node war easily. Maybe you node has to farm half a week to declare war or something. But when you piss off too many nodes, you should feel the pressure.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Relics like the ones mentioned above from lvl5+ maybe even lvl6 nodes would be awesome, but could be better as a reward for sieges? Other than that would be stealing the enemy forge or some other artisan building to upgrade/replace the one in your own node. Resources of course. (Node-)Xp is always nice.. for personal rewards could depend on the specialisation of the node. Animal Husbandry node? Get some mounts, woodworking node? Get bows and instruments. Honestly I dont have a strong opinion on this one. Have to play A2 for a clearer picture I suppose.
Lastly I want to point out that I didnt really like the armors that were shown in the live stream. They all looked a bit generic to me which they probably are because thats not the focus right now but I hope that we get some great looking armors to strife for later on (outside of cosmetics). I hope that the best looking armor isnt cash shop armor but armor you have to play the game for. Achieve something, kill a dragon, find a rare recipe, safe a maiden, something more significant than swiping your credit card. Sure we want to have good looking armor in the cash shop too, else noone will buy it but this shouldnt be the only way to look good. More regarding that point is here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/455951#Comment_455951
I think some of the interactions that mayors can currently do through the Node UI they shouldn't be able to do just like that in any part of the world. It's a bit immersion breaking. I'm specially referring to transcendent ones like declaring a war. A missed opportunity.
Declaring a war should be a big deal, bells in the city should ring, NPCs maybe change their stance a bit, maybe even look horrified or at least act differently. Things like that. And the Mayor should definitively not be in the other side of the world pulling up a UI panel and clicking a button. Should be there.
1. First, I would like to see a few variations in the type of node wars that can be declared based on the type of node (military, scientific, divine, economic), reflecting those over-arching themes.
There should be a lot of overlap in the node war types, but also having a variety based on node type will be good for the game, I think.
2. Secondly, I think special war types between two nodes of the same node type should exist. Basically big epeen contests showing which of the two nodes have the best warriors/artisans/gold hoarders/religious fanatics.
For example, a military node should have a special war type they can only declare on another military node, with events that are strictly PvP. Some with participation limits, like a big arena, where skill is king, and also some that are more freeform and can be decided by those who bring the most warriors.
3. Thirdly, I think the PvP/PvE balance in any given war type should be varied. I don’t want to see a 50/50 or 70/30 balance in all the wars. Mix it up. Even have a few node war types where the PvE objectives outweigh the PvP objectives by a significant margin. It’s ok if some of those PvE objectives are instanced and thus completely insulated from PvP, in some cases. Make the node war types "PvX" in all the meanings of the word, when looked at in totality.
Let me be clear that I like the segmented health bars, but I saw some people had concerns over the "responsiveness" of it, since you might cast 3-4 abilities at someone and not see any changes.
So I thought that adding cracks to the bars at certain breakpoints might help that out, but also thought "if the cracks always show up at 50%, you might as well just have 8 segments instead of 4", so idk. Fuppo wanted me to post the idea here anyways.
I do think that if something like this is added, you shouldnt do it for the last bar, since that would make it too easy for people to abuse.
I think the use of NPC guards in node wars should be defensive in nature only. They don’t have to only be in the node, they can also protect each respective HQ in the events like the Highwayman Hills, for example, but any offensive action should always be done by players.
With that said, I think players should be able to affect both the quality and quantity of guards to a large extent, no matter the node type. I know Military nodes have their Barracks system, but that should be an addition to the node war guards system, and potentially more focused on being a node siege related system.
The mayor should be able to allocate more resources and funds for guards defending node war event objectives, and for protecting the node itself, increasing both the quantity and base quality of all guards. This can be done straight from node funds, or it can be through a mayoral commission.
Node citizens should also be able to directly upgrade guards through some system. Donating equipment, gold and temporary buffs in a broad sense to upgrade all the guards, or through some “Adopt a Guard” system, where they focus on a specific guard to turn them into a super-guard. Let the players see the K/D ratio of their chosen pet guards.
Each node type should have slightly different ways they excel in. Divine nodes can provide their guards with better buffs, scientific nodes better equipment, etc. No matter the node type, I think being able to upgrade guards all the way up to elite status - where a 1v1 between a player and guard will be very, very difficult for the player - is ok, but at a significant cost. Perhaps even let players upgrade the NPC guard commanders to mini-boss status.
A node wars guard system as suggested above also functions as a potentially significant gold and material sink, obviously.
The bad. Partical effects are to large and colorful. This does need to be scaled. It's way to busy and worst of all, it will be hard to tell what class is doing what in the battle.
With that said, I think the best titles should be taken for the best systems.
Just like I think a class of class kits are being inspired from too few titles.
Additionally I think the classes could use inspiration from their class kits from a broad range of titles such as those I listed above and other titles like TERA, Smite, Predecessor etc. Lots of great ways to be inspired to create classes and a lot of that will address the mindless zerging.
Strategy, Tactics, Risks, and being out of our comfort zone should be rewarded over the feelings of being safe in numbers; zerging has the least amount of strat, tactics, and risk involved and should be the least rewarded playstyle. And a lot of kit variation will address @Barab 's concern with zerging if implemented properly.
There are just way more titles than WoW/GW1+2/AA/and Lineage to draw from that did systems and class kits in a superior way.
Great stream folks. Having played lineage 2 and many other similar pvp games, darkfall, eve, asherons call etc, i'm very excited for this game.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
This game is far more complex than most so i hope someone is going to add all the info to a wiki or whatever to let guild leaders know specifics on how to do certain things and the and all of the details they need to know. Yes i already know there is a wiki however i just hope all the info is there concerning these things.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
In large battles in any game its usually a cluster Fuk with everything going on so anything that can negate that effect should be thought about. Simple things would help a lot for example. In the stream i heard Stephen asking for a raid invite. He shouldn't have to ask who the raid leader is. There should be some marking in the raid itself of who the raid leader is so everyone knows. Should be able to join any active raids / parties by looking at the guild tab. Main class icons in raid / party groups. Leader should be able to drag and drop people into different groups depending on their class. I also noticed the tank walls. Would be nice to have enemy tank walls in red and friendly ones in blue for example.
One concern i have is that in large battles theres so much visual effects going on its difficult to tell what is actually going on at times. I hope there is a way to lower the visual effects of animations / spells etc. e.g. high / mid / low visual effects settings
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Having played mostly pvp games i'm all for mass pvp however my biggest concern is about the non mass pvp. I know Stephen played Lineage 2 and my concern is for people taking advantage of systems such as: Ganking people trying to leave a node or returning to one.; spawn camping etc. Another thing that drives people away from pvp games are those who exploit certain areas and there is no recourse available without ruining your rep, going 'red', losing items etc while seeming not accomplishing anything to remove bad actors from the area, such as 'farmers for gold /items" I certainly hope this topic is well thought out....
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
The objectives in the stream seemed to be good for that part, so it seems you're going in the right direction there. I wouldn't make the requirements for participating too extreme or no one will want to participate.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams? expectations lead to divorce
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war? Node wars could be set days in advance with a warning giving to each side so they can prepare. It should announce the specific day and time. The time shouldn't be able to be set for 2 am for example either. There could be smaller wars that don't impact the node too much, like losing the farm as it were. Small wars could be more often with less consequences to take care of trash talking guilds or 'greifers' etc. A small war for guilds that grief areas etc should be possible without loss to reputation etc, however there needs to be a way to to deal with groups of griefers that choose to not make a guild for the purpose of griefing / controlling areas or resources. There should be NO incentive for those that are not part of a guild to grief or engage in pvp or control areas with resouces.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
The rewards should be very substantial in order to get the most participation.
I like that there's going to be other types of node wars. Different reasons to go to war. I hope the system doesn't pigeonhole you into fighting the same couple of nodes over and over but instead gives some reason to war nodes in various different places.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
Pve/Pvp balance in that war seemed fine. It was a fight over a literal pve poi if I'm not mistaken, including the mobs within it, and a race to gather the blood and the crystals etc. I'd like to see a variety of different pve/pvp balances across the war types. And you can certainly get more exotic with it than what was shown. Just don't get super weird with it either though lol.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
My ideal expectation for mass battles is that zerging is punished/disincentivized through objectives and through class combat skills. I also don't like overly slow, trudging pvp. For example where you have two opposing groups of players, and one can't finish the other off before respawns just naturally trickle back in, in an endless cycle. I like there to be some resolution, advancement of the lines, push and pull on the battlefield. As opposed to just blob group neverending standoffs. Give us the ability to make plays.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
It depends on how other systems are tuned. How prevalent is the pvx from the open world flagging system. From guild wars. Caravans. When I play pvx games, I like to pvx. I'd be fine with node wars every day, in general. Multiple, ongoing simultaneously. Just depends on the other systems as far as frequency. Though I think there's weight to a node war. It's not just two guys fighting over a grind spot. It's an impactful event. There will be decision making and a cost that goes into it, so frequency should line up in a way that makes sense with that. The objective event's impact in a war - I don't know. Obviously since the war continues outside of those objective events, the non event part also needs to have an impact on the larger war. No idea what the weight of each should be, too many unknowns right now.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Enough and of a type that makes them worth fighting for and makes you legitimately care and want to win the war. Enough that it stings a fair bit when you lose. Not so much that it's utterly demoralizing to lose. But anything really, whatever type of reward makes sense with the structure and economic model of your game. It should be good rewards I think, but not so much that it trivalizes other reward structures in the game.
How do you feel about the Node Wars Preview?
Overall, I'm feeling positive. I think there's a lot of room for further growth, expanding the ideas, adding more complexity and time investment to the war events, but overall I like the added complexity to node wars beyond just sieges.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
There seems to be quite a wide range of reasons to be interested in the system, based off the potential rewards for victory and penalties for failure that node wars will involve. I like strategic, large scale, multiplayer encounters. PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. As long as they're long and large in scale, with several types of objectives to pursue and choices to be made.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
The odd, out of place nature of the Godspike concerns me, and the objectives in general. Nothing seems to have any purpose for being there. This could be explained in a blog post, but I need to see it and feel it in the game world. I think I'd much prefer more unique, curated objectives based off the point of interest I'm fighting over. It really just felt like a bunch of placeholder objectives. As the systems get more fleshed out, I think these events will need a lot of love from the world design team with additional assets and NPCs/mobs to make them feel more fleshed out and organically occurring rather than transparently 'game-y'.
Obviously, y'all were trying to fit the event into a showcase, so I understand if things are currently tuned to the short side, but I really feel that systems this consequential should be deeper and longer in scale. The activity space was a good size, but the event lacked depth, and was too short for my taste. I'll go into more detail on this later.
Not really the focus of the showcase, but the more I see of characters and armor/weapons in the game, the more I'm becoming concerned about the game's color palette, or rather, the lack thereof. This also involves the ability VFX, but I know y'all are always working on those. Generally, certain things that shouldn't be too eye catching are drawing all of my attention. What's with the NERF brand traffic cone / YInMn blue plate armor and weapon dyes? Electric Blue Razz ICEE hair dye? I understand it's a fantasy game, but man, that sort of thing is super distracting and honestly ruins the aesthetic of the game for me. Visual and color design in Ashes has been kind of all over the place for a while now, but up until recently, most of the oddities were with creature and mount designs that stuck out from the world like a sore thumb from a color/design standpoint. Now the players and some NPCs are, too. I think some of that needs to be reigned in. If you paint a picture with every single color at the art supply store with the flora looking like a Bierstadt and the Fauna looking like a Van Gogh, it starts to lose any kind of meaning.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Honestly, not really. The closest thing would be GW2 WvWvW, but that's quite massive in scale and solely point-control focused, if I remember correctly. Y'all are in uncharted territory, as far as I'm concerned. Best practice is pull the best from the best, I think. Make the events rich and complex with lots of avenues for player choice on how to pursue objectives, create more opportunities to screw with the enemy team, give the system some leeway for push and pull rather than a head to head race. These all create a grander, more epic encounter that makes victory all that much more satisfying and defeat that much less quick and decisive.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Love it. Bring it on! Let's get messy! The part that makes it fun for me is the impact it has on day-to-day activities. The only part that concerned by was VFX readability and color palette, but y'all are already on that from what I saw of the recent mage update.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
Perhaps something like 25/75 - 50/50, depending on the type of event and how it involves the part of the world it takes place in, always leaning in favor of the PvP aspect. Most of the work being put in should have some blend of the two, but there should be room for PvP focused players to have their fun and PvE focused players to contribute.
For example, I think every event should start with an NPC-driven caravan defense phase that brings each node's base camp supplies to the encounter. This creates opportunities for each team to try and delay the enemy on their way to the event, and makes the event feel like it's really happening. The supplies everyone gave are being loaded up into multiple wagons at the caravansary and being escorted by several guards all the way to the fight zone. The base camp needs 5-10 minutes to finish getting set up without having progress impeded by NPC enemies or enemy players. This is a great opportunity for both PvE and PvP, as well as an opportunity for everyone to get their friends attention so everyone can get online before the main event kicks off.
There can be ways to farm some additional resources in the area that can be turned in at the basecamp to fortify it against enemy players or to purchase items that can be utilized in the field for attack, defense, or expedited primary resource gathering that can give PvE centric players something to help out with that's not as hotly contested as the primary objectives. Attacks can be launched on the enemy's basecamp to hinder their progress. Favor can be curried with local neutral parties to win their support and gain NPC patrols that help fight for you, unlock shortcuts for getting around the map, or spawn useful resources more often. Winning the area can involve needing to take down one, or even multiple NPC bosses, or doing so can at least push your progress forward. All of these would create valuable opportunities for PvE that would inevitably lead to a PvX mixture. I would really challenge the team to let their imaginations run wild on all the PvX potential that can be packed into these event zones as development pushes forward to maximize 'war event epicness'.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I suppose a large combination of all the things I just mentioned would be awesome to have all together for mass player battles. When you have a good variety of avenues to pursue victory through, it will naturally split large raid groups into a blend of large and small groups. Some players will want to stage strategic attacks on the enemy's basecamp and ignore PvE objectives, perhaps a large group wants to take on a PvE boss, maybe 2-3 players want to focus on currying favor from locals to get some patrol squads going or resource generation increase on the half of the map closer to your base camp. Thinking in terms of one type of event vs the other can be fine in a few cases, but I hope most of these events will host a hybrid of the two objective types.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
Hard to say for sure at this point, but I wouldn't mind being in a new war campaign once or twice a month where the better part of a week has 3-6 events split between the campaign duration. Perhaps the length and intensity of the campaign is tied to the seriousness of the affair. Siphoning some exp for a week? Maybe not WWIII territory. Having your node de-leveled if you lose? That should be a major campaign.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
What was already mentioned in the showcase for node-wide benefits were all great ideas.
I like the idea of having special bosses spawn in new territories of control - perhaps their summoning could be tied to whatever the organically formulated objectives in the event zone were? You fight throughout some haunted wood in order to activate the massive gem collecting dust atop a mysterious tower at the center of the desolation in order to gain some power for your node, only to find out that the initial activation of the tower ages ago was what wrought the damage to begin with, and it spawns a new PvE-centric event, increasing the power and multitude of the ghostly defenders throughout the woods and summoning the dark wizards who built the mysterious tower many silent years ago.
Perhaps winning an event is what gives you favor with the local NPC residents, and they open up temporary lines of business with the node for NPC node caravans, trade skill knowledge, ingredient sales, etc.
All the rest:
Mayoral Commissions
I like the current concept for mayoral commissions. Looking at some of the examples right now, I’m left to wonder how they’ll interact with the environment management system. When a mayor starts handing out exp for hunting fish and game, or gathering mass quantities of gatherables, that’s sure to have an impact on the environment state of the node’s ZOI. Of course, they could be sourced elsewhere, but I’m sure most people will take the easy route and go local. Is th land management system still intended to be implemented in the final product? Will mayors then have to consider the potential impacts that giving out these sorts of commissions will have on the node’s land management score? That would make for some interesting decision making pros and cons. New commissions dynamically spawning into the mayor’s hand based on how the node is developed is great.
More importantly, what happens when the mayor disregards certain commissions in their hand? For example, what if Steven had chosen NOT to pursue Goblin Gatherings? Do the goblins in the ZOI have their own internal counters and timers that dictate further expansion and increase in power if enough time passes without them being beaten down? I think these mayoral commissions should be looked at conceptually not only as something the mayor gets to throw out to their citizens without consequence, but also as a sort of collection of reports the mayor receives from their theoretical team of advisors. However, they have to pick and choose when and where to focus their resources (the citizens) in order to most effectively meet the needs of the collective. Sometimes, things fall through the cracks. Taking care of a few goblin camps doesn’t seem like a big deal when you have wars and economic rivals on your doorstep, and then before you know it, you have a horde of goblins overrunning nearby POIs and threatening to siege your node to de-level some of your buildings. This, to me, would make being mayor more of a strategy game with consequences and risk/reward in itself rather than an easy chore of “pick a few commissions I guess, whatever.” It would also encourage mayors to be engaged on a daily basis to ensure they don’t miss important commissions to get game-spawned ZOI problems under control.
Node Wars
I will say I was hoping to see the node siege mechanics in this showcase, but I think I’m happy to see that y’all are actually making node wars more varied and targeted in nature(?). It feels more game-y and less serious, in a way, but it is a game at the end of the day. Giving more opportunities for players to get involved in big PvP events that have noticeable impacts on day-to-day gameplay and overall node development is good.
I think the event could be made far more interesting by making it a multi-stage process rather than just “go here and do the thing.” For example, each side needs a base camp, right? So to start off, each node needs to successfully escort an NPC caravan to their side of the event and defend the base camp construction before they can begin collecting resources. The caravan of several wagons, as well as the 5-10 minute base construction animation could be assailed by NPC enemies or by enemy players to try and lengthen your startup time. Next, the resource collection and event objectives begin, and finally, there’s the primary objective capture. This series of phases would make it feel more like your whole node is going through the process of actually going to a war, from the caravansary to the fields of victory (or defeat) rather than just showing up for a scheduled PvP event down the road and going back home.
Resource collection through multiple sources is a good start. A bit simple, but a good start. That being said, showing the resource spawns on the map, even just some of them, is a horrible idea imo. I get that you’re trying to initiate conflict by leading people on opposite teams to the same places, but it completely removes a layer of strategy to the game that you’re setting up. Imagine if imbued material spawns were totally random, and not marked on the map. What would you do as the raid leader? Should some people just be scouts? Should you split up into roving groups? Circulate the map as a zerg? This will also lend more purpose to players with flying or gliding mounts, as they’d make far better spawn scouts and shot callers. Perhaps, as the event progresses, players could harvest other materials that can be used to buy special items from their base camp, like a device that can be activated to produce a hot/warm/cold meter at the top of their screen telling them when they’re heading in the direction of imbued materials within a certain measured zone around themselves. Don't just immediately jump to player convenience. Automated convenience is the enemy of player choice and the impact of those choices.
Overall, while I understand the event had to be short in order to be shown on a livestream, I think they need to be quite a bit longer and more involved. I don’t think anyone mentioned that it was artificially shortened for the sake of the showcase, but this strikes me as an event in the node war that should last maybe 3-4x this long from start to finish. Why would I contribute to the start of a war if the chance of me being free to join in on any given PvP event was as slim as a random one hour window with 24 hours notice? This has the potential to bring back some of the epic war campaign feelings that old school WoW’s Alterac Valley had. You jump in and out as you’re available, pitching in here and there. You might see the end of some events and not others, but you did your part, had your fun, and got your reward, as long as you were free at some point during those multi-hour-long events in the campaigns. Not everyone works a 9-5, and just because there's "a hot spot" of player activity on a given server doesn't mean everyone wanting to join on the fun will be free on a specific one hour window within a day's notice. Besides, it's incredibly difficult to give events of such a short length the depth and complexity that I think they deserve and should have to feel impactful and properly fleshed out.
The mayor buff ability is cool in concept. I like the aura glow in the AOE a lot but the gigantic glowing sword thing and the flags above Steven’s head were a bit extra. Could these buffs maybe incorporate Bards more? Perhaps, as a Bard citizen of a node, there’s a quest line or some other prerequisite you can go through in order to become a certified Bard of War for your node. This could give a smaller buff ability to any qualified Bard whenever they’re in the fray that stacks up on any given player to a certain level. So Bards could communicate with each other and strategically stack it all at once to get the same effect Steven’s mayor ability use had, or they can do it a bit more strategically without blowing all of their uses at once.
Being able to kill players for event materials before they make their turn in is good. Being able to kill special NPCs to increase the enemy’s primary objective progress is good. Going back to making these events long term things that require multiple stages, each of those stages should have their own objectives and available activities that can help your team or hinder the enemy. Killing things, harvesting things, buying special items from your base camp, destroying enemy locations, etc. Players should also be able to raid the enemy’s base camp for resources if it’s left undefended. Players could also spend some extra resources from around the area to buff their NPC guards and strengthen the initial caravan’d-in base camp setup.
A cool mechanic for channeling the final objective could be a sort of energy transfer between the player and the objective that protects the player channeling when they’ve been channeling for a longer period of time, like an energy shield. Right now, it seems like damage dealt doesn’t cancel the channel, but I really think it should. Maybe there can be a focus bar - going below half health cancels the channel or something? As for the energy shield to reward longer periods of channeling, let’s say if you channel for (x) seconds, you get a small energy shield that protects you from damage that would otherwise break your focus. If you channel for (2x) seconds, the damage shield grows and you become immune to stuns. If you channel for (3x) seconds, the damage shield grows once more, and you also become immune to knockbacks and other movement control effects, effectively becoming untargetable until your shield is destroyed. Would incentivize losing teams to keep a better eye on preventing the winning team from channeling for too long and make interrupting the channeler more of a “boss fight” esque encounter if they don’t.
Having a boss fight with cool loot spawn near the victory area is a fun idea, perhaps certain ones only spawn if the victory is done a certain way, if certain PvE events were successfully completed along the way, or the war event is achieved quickly enough? Hidden objectives players need to discover on their own are always fun.
Color Palette
I have to weigh in here and be honest in saying that I really, really dislike the wildly saturated jewel tone armor colors. For cloth wearers, some color is fine. Even at the 4:35 mark of the YouTube video, there’s an NPC called the Economic Node Vendor wearing a red coat with gold fringe, a goldenrod looking shawl with gold fringe, and a goldenrod hat. The colors are bright, but it’s all cloth, and they’re not wildly contrasted. They look nice. They look believable. And they’re toned down somewhat by black pants, a black waistcoat, and a white shirt. But holy smokes, the glaringly bright traffic cone orange on that steel plate set and some of the weapons, the super rich deep blue is so eye catching and out of place. It’s just too distractingly bright and saturated, it’s the only thing my eyes want to look at on the screen. Those kinds of colors really give modern PvP FPS vibes to me. Stylized games like WoW or GW2 can more easily get away with bright jewel toned armor, because they’re cartoony. But Intrepid has chosen to make this game hyper realistic looking, which makes goofy cartoon colors look particularly goofy. Same thing goes for hair colors. Some colored hair options are fine when they're realistically toned down, but giving people the whole color wheel is just absurd. Sure, there can be lore reasons to theoretically allow all of these things to be possible in a fantasy world, but I find it really ugly given the natural beauty of the setting and awfully distracting from the game world.
Running/Mount Animations
Is the running animation new? It looks really good. I love the animation for leaning into the direction you’re turning in. I really hope mounts will also be just as dynamic looking. I did notice Steven strafing on his horse at one point and it obviously wasn’t animated fully. Of course, horses can’t really strafe at full speed, so with that in mind, there really should be turning circles on mounts. I really, really hope all vehicles (mounts and ships) will have more complex movement than simple tank controls. GW2 mounts are the goal for those, for sure.
Maps
I won’t go into the same detail I have before, but again, I really hope that the main map that you open up a new window to view is more painterly. Players should not be given GPS levels of environmental detail on an entire world map that they pull out of their backpack. It works for a minimap though, since you can only see what you can more or less physically see on the map.
Also… “A Lost Map” showing up as a pinged icon on your backpack map? Why would a “hidden” treasure map show up for collection on your standard adventuring map? I beg of you, please minimize these omniscient map markers in your quest and interactive world design. Make players discover things and communicate again.
Health Bars
Not sure if this just hasn't been implemented fully one way or the other yet, but I find it a bit odd that NPC enemies show a ticking percentage of health with exact numbers, but players use chunks. I’d say pick one or the other for everything.
Mount Abilities
The team actually mentioned mount abilities this time - so I’ll ask once again for the team to clarify - will mount abilities be species-specific? And if so, will cosmetic skins for mounts only be applicable to currently owned mounts of the same species? Judging by what the developer discussing the topic was saying, it sounds like mount abilities are going to become very generic, so that there's no risk of janky cross-species mount abilities being performed by skinned mounts that wouldn't make sense to be seen from. It would be nice to know what the plan is one way or the other as the team begins exploring animal husbandry more.
Thanks for the showcase! It looks like y'all are starting to have a lot of fun testing out these gameplay systems. I only hope there'll be some "last call" 24 hour buy-in period at some point between now and the launch of A2 so I can do my part in helping to test it all.
After the very structured Archetype showcases, this felt definitely more chaotic with the amount of things going on, but I think that was largely okay since this is a dynamic event with lots of players doing possibly unpredictable things. The necessary information still came across, it was pretty fun to watch, I think it was great that you made the decision to make the showcase a bit longer too.
To me this was a great showcase and it displayed to me that so far things are coming together well.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
I think it is very interesting to have the ability to come together as a Node to fights in a way that actually makes the world around them different and therefore have impact. Even better, that we have different means by which we can win the conflict so even within the competition there seems to be room for the individual players to play this to their strengths. The recognition of the player as a primary driver of the server story just in itself excites me.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Concern: One thing that caught my eye was that when Steven was at the base camp he looked back to the people following close behind him. The players were far behind him but they looked like they moved in stop motion. I don't know if that was due to a setting to improve performance, hardware limitation or so, but IMO the characters were way too close to be not fully animated, since - if they were enemies - they could become highly relevant for PvP in just seconds.
Praise: The idea to have a mayor/faction select what kind of war they are declaring in itself is great since players would want to be play to thei own sides advantages. Talking about this showcase in particular to contest over the EXP of a certain POI to me is perfect. That is exactly the kind of things I was hoping to get from something PvX.
Praise: To not make the war of the POI EXP a simply clash of forces in a direct confrontation but instead create events around them looks like a very good idea to me and the different things shown seemed fun, diverse enough to appeal to different types of players and they made sense to me it did not feel like some janky minigame forcefully pressed into the game to tick a box.
Concern: This might fal into the category of "balancing" but with the goal of the war being to earn 1000 points, I at least felt like things progressed a bit too fast. If I remember right, One side managed to collect 150 points within the 1 hour, which would mean that if similar opportunities to earn points were to spawn during the war, it is over in one evening. If that assumption is correct it means that a well timed declaration of war leaves little time for the other side to react. If that is the intent, then I'd probably feel better about it if this was redefined as a "skirmish" to indicate that this is not supposed to be a drawn out event cluster. I feel a decleration of war should result in something that provides competitive opportuinities for a week. With the stakes as high as they are, I think having a 7-8 hour "war" seems a bit short, so I would look into whether the duration of the event lines up with the goal of actually competing over something.
Concern/Praise: While looking epic and brutal, I felt that like the visual effect of especially the Fighter really stood out a lot. I know magic works a bit different in Ashes but that felt like a bit much. On the other hand I think that the mages abilities looked great, if that is the direction we are going with all class skills I think this will look amazing once done!
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I guess Helldivers goes in that direction, which does fairly well, though that feels like a grindfest at some point.
I remember one of the Mass Effect games providing us with a "collect points" (in Mass Effect's case "resources to go to war against the machines") type of border to trigger the next part of the main quest and that worked quite well since the individual missions overall were rather interesting, so it felt fun and highly rewarding to maybe even go beyond what was expected of you. If the sub events of the war feel as engaging, I think we have ourselves a great system here.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
I have to say, I was a bit surprised how tame it actually was during the competition over the Godspike, with players trying to keep their distance from each other. Maybe this was due to the short notice but I would have espected maybe a squad of beef up tanks & fighters diving into the enemy lines to break them apart, but maybe fire was too focused to allow for that, coordination amongst the team wasn't strong enough or maybe support classes need something that provides enough sustain to survive the initial dive to break into enemy lines (or people didn't want to look like trolls on stream? XD). Anyways, it was much more tame than expected.
Beyond that with objective scattered around a POI like this I think the mass PvP allows for a lot of seemingly insignificant spots on the map to turn into crucial battlefields for players to fight over and prevent just mindless chaotic clusters of people bonking each other for no reason. This should create a much better basis for PvP and especially strategies.
With that being said, I don't think there is much more to say about it, too much is still in the unknown, but so far it looks like Mass PvP will be fun, meaningful and not just a random chaotic mess. Final judgements on that are still out.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
I think there is no problem with a 70:30 ratio in either direction as long as there is variety in that. It wouldn't be surprising for a religious Node prefer engaging in a PvE leaning war rather than a war where the goals are more directly confrontational in nature.
That being said, ultimately to a large degree players will decide how mugh PvP will happen during any type of competitive event, the best you as game designers can to is provide either to edjust the incentives for PvE and PvP to achieve the balance you see as appropriate or to provide players (e.g. mayors, bishops, kings and queens) with the ability to influence those via policies.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I think the easiest way to make small groups/guilds more effective is to make certain objectives within the greater conflict anti-zerg.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I think it would be cool to see one or two Node wars per month near the Node your reside in. Meaning it doesn't need to be your own Node be involved each time; maybe every once a month you compete with a neighbor over something and two weeks later you would go out as a mercenary to help in another Nodes conflict.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
I think distinct war related rewards would be awesome. This could include special military uniform skins, maybe special animations for effects like the rally ability of a mayor, unique war rations/camping sites that provide ranger-type camoflage while sitting in a warzone, titles & tattoos related to PvP, military and war, artisan recipies for military type buildings, memorial monuments in your Node/ on your freehold / in your guild hall / apartmanet and access to special PvX events where two armies contest a PvE objective in a siege (like "kill the dragon, transport its heart to your fortress and gain a relic/buff for your Node and citizens").
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Node Wars Preview shown during the May Development Update
I think the most important things in terms of balancing this right is ultimately to make it dynamic. If the world event system could adjust the rewards as well as frequency of subevent spawnrate from Node Wars depending on frequency of Node Wars overall VS citizen participation rate, then that would help a lot. Furthermore I think it might be worth looking into incentives for outsiders to participate in some way. for example by allowing characters without a citizenship to side temporarily with one faction and gain some rewards from that.
Preview is just fine and well needed.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
The sorcerer killing affecting the channeling.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Hopefully the mechanics used are "easily" modded and reskinned to mix and match into future features. For
example having necromancer areas where you kill NPC X to hasten the channeled raising of NPC Y.
OR temporarily buff a player of your choice with select abilities of sacrificed creatures.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Time gated events and those happening only at certain times/weekdays. Without possibility to affect them by the players.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Positive.
I've never seen systems in an MMO who are as well-developed and engaging as in Ashes and the game is still pre Alpha. BRAVO!!!
I like that combat and pvp in ashes looks to be more like strategy, knowledge about your skills and build and cunning. I've played other MMO's where your skill level was determent by practice in fast pace combat, making you perform multiple actions per second (sweat lord style) with fights that could be over in 3 sec. I'm glad ashes is not that kind of game.
I like that players and NPC have the same kind of stats, making the same gear relevant in both PVE and PVP
cons
I am concerned that in its current set up, attacking parties will always have a massive advantage because they can set up their raid group and declare war at 4am at night, and win virtually unopposed. Or at least get a head start.
I think there should be term limits to becoming mayor! Or perhaps a system where the one who has invested the most to the node gets the title for a term. (most commissions/donations/time invested)
otherwise, the same guild leaders will always have the most votes/money etc. to be the mayor every time.
It is a game after all and I think everybody should be able to enjoy all of its content!
How will you prevent monopolies?
These health bar blocks I see on enemies, I'm not a fan. It inhibits our ability to be as effective as possible. Capping our skills as a player.
Final thoughts
Considering you have taken a lot of inspiration from good old lineage2, I was wondering if you would consider another aspect of L2 i enjoyed. The so-called "soul gems/spirit gems" where you could buy gems that you can use before an attack to enhance the power of that attack. Giving you the option to spend money for an extra boost to your power for more difficult content?
Will we be able to use siege equipment during war types like the one we've just seen?
ooff... Thanks a lot for bringing this up! As someone who has been following and supporting this game since kickstarter, I have to admit that I´ve actually never noticed that! (I probably paid too much attention to other things...)
I fully agree with you and I absolutely hope this will be changed! I´d love to know other people´s opinions on this, so maybe we can open a separate thread for this?
It was nice to see how well Servers manage to handle so many ppls in 1 spot. After NDA drop we’ve found out that You have some problems at first 3 testings but later as always IS was fast to fix this issues
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Building city with fellow citizens. Personaly I think mayor comissions, mandates, votes and all this jazz is little to much and sound like full time job but I hope there are players who like this stuff.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview?
Stuggering animations 15m away from player worried me a little bit but I have faith its just alpha problems. Ranger green shots way to bright.
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
Can’t wait to participate. Honestly its hard to give opinion without playing it.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
I like direction for small teams have different things to and objectives. Hope gathers have some bonuses to pick Cristals faster for example.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
Every 4 Seasons so we have time to gather all resources.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
Beside xp for node and passive bonuses It would be nice to Mayor to pick this Godspike for few days:)
Overall great livestream on super promising concept, only hightening the huge hopes for the game suitable for L2 veteran.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Potential for player driven politics and huge space for forming strategic guild driven alliances.
Is there anything in particular you’re concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
It's little bit connected to UI, but I will write it anyway, as it mainly focus some kind of directional decission too. I'm mostly concerned about the current approach to the raid organization system with the large-ugly shared HP bars across the whole raid. For me and my gaming team mates it was one of the biggest disadvantage of Archeage, and the system of more independant parties federation that was present in Lineage 2 raiding was superior. Primarly, party UI is much more managable for healers, where on the raid there are just too many people on the single screen to effectively care about all the states/debuffs. Moreover, party federations raiding system from Lineage 2 was highly encouraging "e-sport" like practicioning on the teamwork party level, as well as giving small teams their identity to be the part of the raid and remain well-coordinated team that know each other perfectly. It probably may be addressed by having some crucial abilities party-only targeting and tweaks for making party more prominent across the raid panel as well. I think that the worst part of Archeage was that the party role in raid was completely erased (it was even often beneficial to swap party squads for raid leaders to keep healers in single "space" and so on)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Flying mount owned by Node leader was absolutely awesome, the concept was present in Lineage 2 with Wyverns for Castle owners, but the implementation was lacking the debth and unfortunately the potential was never used there. On the AoC stream on the other hand it already was super cool and could result in some most memorable moments ever possible in MMO. Super rare-elite mounts with relevant role in game is just brilliant idea. Please continue this path.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
- Guild Wars 2 WvWvW - terrible system from my point of view, I would use it as a reference how not to do it.
-- it was continous 24/7, impossible to keep a focus and care about that
-- it was scaled (I think level/gear scaling it the cancer of the industry)
-- it had performance problems
-- sides of conflict were artificial (I hate factions in general and strongly believe in players formed "factions" by their own will, which is probably main reason I sticked oberving AoC)
On the other hand, although not strictly compared to Node Wars, Lineage 2 castle sieges system was very fun mostly because it was concerned on player driven politics; it never had any fancy mechanics, but people were truly preparing for them and even adjusting real life plans, to have the possibility to take the part of them. I think that prioritizing player driven politics and adding some more modern gameplay is the biggest opportunity to become an outstanding MMO for visible niche on the market for AoC.
What do you believe the perfect balance to be between PvE and PvP objectives?
I'd say that's important to create such a flow that every objective can be effectively interrupted by the opposite team, but also to create the possibility of completing the objective against successful defense (it's very easy to ruin that by creating too many/too close ressurection points); But to be precise, I do not mean that there should'nt be possibility to have N iterations of such defense&attack, but rather trying to point out, that the system should not be deadlock architectured that it's too easy to interrupt and almost impossible to finish, so the winning side is determined by the fact who will be bored first.
What are your ideal expectations when it comes to mass-player battles, and objectives oriented or best fit for small teams?
Very tough question, but in general there should be side-off strategic objectives giving visible advantages, so the diversity would be little big higher than only zerg vs zerg on single spot. It would be perfect if at some point, the need for having some small coordinated strike groups would be substantial giving the possibility to shine for strategist leader, while it would be nice to have the "zergs" meetup at some point and the end. More or less, I would say, it was even designed on stream this way.
What would be the ideal frequency for events like Node Wars in your opinion? What kind of impact do you want events like these to have on a larger war?
I'd say that really tough ones should not be more frequent than once per two weeks, as it's quite important, so it will stay relevant and wouldn't feel routine, but small objectives ones probably could have higher frequency.
Other unrelated feedback:
I think it's a very good approach to have a descrete HP bar on enemies instead of exact number, it gives additional debth to the fight.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node Wars system?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Node Wars Preview? (UI, VFX, and performance are things we know need love, and not what we want feedback on currently)
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
How did you feel about Mass PvP?
I've worn contacts for 25 years and scratching or blistering on the eye is the worst.
Preview was awesome. Enjoyed how the teams were forced to break up the group. I am also a fan of these systems not being an all the time thing. I think constantly being forced to log in because you have important battles would be exhausting.
I am a little concerned about apathy from players. Essentially choosing to ignore because they simply have other things they want to accomplish or achieve.
Played alot of Wars in New World and Crowfall. You will definitely need indicators of enemy spells or effects. Dieing because you couldn't find the right one always feels bad. Greying out or highlighting might work
Really want to see organizational tools. I don't war to herd cats! New World always annoyed the crap out of me with their lack of tools. Raid leaders and officers need them! Few ideas I have below ;
Raid wide messages, popping up on the screen.
Pings that maybe show a travel path to them? click and drag a group icon to a point on the map indicating on the mini map where that group needs to be. Each group should have its own icon. Raid/War leaders can set these and should be raid wide but only the travel path is shown for that group only. Maybe can even set multiple sort of like directions for a patrol or rotation.
Role selection should be a requirement as well not an option.
Mass PVP is some of those most exciting content anyone will get, big stakes mean big wins and losses. It can also be one of the worst experiences ever if done poorly, every battle decided by who has the largest force just sucks. Its ok to a point but theres a line when it just becomes silly and pointless. Performance is obviously huge.
Crowfall had both of these issues.
New world had controlled player wars but we're super restrictive.
I think AoC devs are the real Quad A devs because it seems like they get it.
Personally I think Albion Online has the BEST mass pvp of any mmo (maybe even game?) out there. It has its own problems of course but the gameplay of it is wonderful. I have played the game for several years, made some guides for it, ran an end game guild + shotcalled for it, and done hundreds of hours of mass pvp theorycrafting. I'd like to share that experience here since it relates to the mass pvp.
As a quick side note, not seeing healthbars move when you do damage is WEIRD. I know what Steven said about it but I don't really understand.
(Mass pvp problem 1) The whole node war thing, great. No problems from me. PvE side objectives, get everyone involved, citizens are flagged. Fantastic. I am worried about the actual mass pvp engagements though. I know the fights we saw were unorganized but it reminded me of turtle fights in alterac valley. Everyone sits in two big clumps and throw spells at each other. None of the aoes have any impacts. There is no "play making". The only people that get killed are the ones that overextend or if one side outnumbers/out blanket aoe's the other. While this is a spectable, there's nothing strategically interesting happening here. Stand in the heals, press wide aoe damage. The main spells that I saw doing significant damage were single target spells like snipe. So in my head that implies that you would win by essentially organizing snipe squads that try to pick off healers so you can win the attrition war. But do we really want single target spells to dominate our mass pvp? And of course I know we haven't seen everything yet. Like what does it look like when 5 mages blink in, cone of cold into blizzard? I can assure you, ashes mass pvp fights will not be like alterac valley in wow, where you queue up with 40 random people and theres no coordination. We (players) have years of experience in our various games coordinating these kinds of things.
(Mass pvp problem 2) The second problem is melee (dps and tanks). Obviously, melee cannot do damage without jumping in. How do they survive the blanket aoe? What stops them from dying to just auto attacks? If 100 people auto attack you, even if it only does 10 damage each, thats 1000 damage. Which is about what the people in the vod had besides Steven. You could tune the blanket aoe damage to be low enough to not destroy the melee but then why do those spells even exist? Why have ranged at all then? Like the ranger ran of arrows thing. I forget what its called but the big barrage of bright green that showers over the enemy. Does that even DO damage? Why does it exist?
Quick aside, do tanks in ashes even do anything? They conjure a wall (pretty good), and then reduce damage for their teammates. So they aren't really tanks, they're just supports. Big oof.
Back to Albion Online. Albion addresses problem 1 with "AoE Escalation". Excluding bugs, all spells do more damage when they hit more players up to a cap. So its something like 1 target: 100% damage. 2 targets: 105% damage. 4 targets: 120% damage. 10 targets: 200% damage. This does a couple things. 1. We can have aoe spells that can nearly one shot people in mass pvp but are pretty bad in 1v1s. 2. It is no longer good enough to just blindly press your aoe buttons and do blanket aoe damage. If you want your damage to count, you need to hit multiple people. And this probably means you need to coordinate with your teammates to land CC. In Albion we also have 'clumping' abilities. Black holes that suck everyone together type of thing. This also gives tanks another job. One person clumps the enemies, another stuns the clump, the dps hits the clump. Big damage. Now the other side knows you are going to do this. So now they have coordinated defensives. Its no longer good enough to just blanket heal. You need targeted and well-timed defensives, burst heals, and cleanses. Coordinating cooldowns also tends to create an offense/defense pattern that revovles around cooldowns. Albion is moba-like in its combat with only 4 abilities that tend to be 4s/15s/30s cds. The 30 sec cds are the big hitters. Since they need to be coordinated, it tends to lead towards one side going on offense and using their cds, then going on the defensive while they wait for cds. This gives the other side an opportunity to go on the offensive while they know the first zerg is on cooldown. Creates a bit of back and forth.
For problem 2, we have "Focus Fire Protection". This acts sorta like the opposite of aoe escalation. The more enemies you get hit by, the less damage you take. While this does counteract some of the damage bonus you get from aoe escalation, having more people will always do 'more' damage. But what this does is it makes it so that melee dps and tanks do not instantly die to ambient/random blankt aoe damage. Or auto attacks. Once you've taken a bit of damage from multiple people you become quite tanky and can sufficiently exist as a frontline for your team. Melee dps can run into the enemy backline and exist there for a little bit until the enemy focuses coordinated damage onto them. At which point they need to use defensives/mobility to escape.
Between the two mechanics, it is technically better to hit with as few people as possible but having them be as buffed up/glass cannon as possible. There's not really a dps meter in albion so most of the math is 'feely crafted' which is great imo. I hate how much of WoW is just letting a computer do some math for you to tell you whats best.
The main point of all this that there is strategy not only in the objective but the actual gameplay. Dealing meaningful damage requires working with your team. There is strategy around cooldown trading. There is thought put into how much dps you have vs how many supports and what kind. Tanks have a role as playmakers with CC and clump making and not just as defensive supports. Some zergs go melee heavy and try to rely on focus fire protection to out-attrition you with bruisers. Some are more kite-y. There are bomb squads and counter-bomb squads. Individual players have the opportunity to show their skill in a variety of different ways.
You don't have to copy albion online if you don't want to, but I'd hate to see the mass pvp be people just throwing blanket aoes that don't do any damage by themselves, abduct/single target metas to be able to kill anyone.
It is definitely in the right direction. It will need some additional love on the performance side especially if the target is to support hundreds of players fighting but, as stated, this is already being worked on.
Regarding the complexity of Sieges/Node Wars:
I would like to see keeping a slightly different mentality between mass pvp events in order to maintain variety while keeping the idea of mass pvp in the center. For example:
Node wars design should remain as is with multiple pvx objectives for players to take part it regardless of whether they are pvp or pve focused. This will ensure that different kinds of players (even if not on the same guild) will have the interest in participating.
However, I do feel like castle sieges should be more focused on pvp without too much extra complexity and objectives. One good example would be Lineage 2 castle sieges where the only objective was to take the castle through "praying" in the inner room of the castle. That would make a good base idea which could be expanded with some additional objectives like building siege weapons, as stated in the past, but it should remain faily simple so players can focus on pvp and the castle itself.
Running around a huge map to do multiple different objectives like killing bosses for buffs, gathering resources from 5-10 places etc in addition to already doingthat in node wars is something that might become repetitive.
Frequency of mass pvp events:
I feel like an ideal frequency for such events would be either 2 different events each weekend (e.g. node wars on saturday and sieges on sunday) or at least one alternating per weekend (e.g. node wars first saturday and sunday, sieges on the next saturday and sunday etc). For extra variance, different locations should host these events at different days/weekends but should not overlap or have too many one after the other.
To sum up:
1) I don't like that Node War events contain PvE activities: fighting bandits, harvesting rubies...
If objectives are needed, I would prefer "war" specific objectives, like
- destroying guard towers which the opposing node builds over time to protect their caravans or players nearby
- destroying and looting material storage points which are used to build guard towers
2) I don't like that there is no gear durability loss during such events. I'd say this bothers me more than the PvE activity above.
3) I don't like the possibility to take away temporarily mayorship from the other node.
Excited:
1) I like that the war is structured into more stages with node war events in each stage.
2) I like the other rewards mentioned: service denial, stealing XP, taking relics away.
3) I like that outside the prime time those players are permanently flagged (as always mentioned by wiki)
The PvP is already looking really good. I especially like the amount of line of sight the terrain gives you. In terrain like that, you can set up traps that are actually hard to spot, which makes PvP much more strategic and interesting. I also like the dragon adding to that strategic aspect by being able to coordinate since he can see over the line of sight and spot enemies more early.
I also really like the verticality of the terrain and how it interacts with abilities like the wall closing. I feel like this is a perfect canvas to use full coordination and strategy to beat a larger force that's less coordinated. The terrain could also breed different PvP cultures. For example, in the desert where it's more open, it's more about numbers, but in the Pyrai forest, it's more about splitting your enemy and luring him into traps where you have local superiority or a surprise effect to get an advantage.
The ability colors are looking great. I especially like some of the green, red, and purple tones.
I think the mass PvP has the right amount of chaos, some but not too much. I think it's good that it's a mix of PvP and PvE, and I think the ratio should be somewhere around 65% PvP / 35% PvE during the battle, but with preparation around 50/50 to 40% PvP / 60% PvE.
Something I'd like to see for smaller team viable objectives is NPC caravans or caravan-like moving objectives to multiple places on the map. And make these very important to take down. Having caravans full of ballistas or even explosives on both sides would make for amazing side objectives beyond killing a single strong npc. Especially if these side objectives were far from each other, making it hard to zerg all of them.
What event rewards do you think would be cool?
I think rewards should include commendations useable to purchase "PVP" gear, mounts, etc. being able to choose your reward sounds better than random loot drops. Maybe decent chunks of gold too.
It would also be kinda funny if the winning team unlocked a temporary buff they can cast and reuse as many times as they want for 24 hours. Making world content easier for the winners for a short time. Maybe something as small as a non stacking buff of 3% increase to a stat. Maybe the type of stat could be reflected by what type of node that was destroyed.