Having re-read the cleric abilities, I think I have a decent picture of what you're saying. Even if mana wasn't an issue that obligated you to use mend, the other choice isn't exactly inspiring.
Here's an idea: What if instead of having abilities specifically for spending your divine power, all abilities could spend it to add a modifier of some kind. Maybe there would be an ability you would use, and then the next ability you cast would consume your divine power. Let's just call that ability "Consume Divine Power" for example.
So you'd do your healing, building divine power as before. Then some specific situation would occur where the divine power modifier on an ability would be useful. You'd cast "Consume Divine Power" and then the next ability will have its Divine Power modifier. A few hypotheical examples, building on existing abilities:
Consecrating Wave: Send forth a cone of radiance that deals radiant damage to all enemies while healing the ten nearest allies. Divine Power: Also cleanses allies of any movement-impairing effects.
Divine Flare: Place a targeted area heal on the ground that heals all targets within after several seconds. Total healing is split between all targets hit. Divine Power: All targets receive the full heal amount.
Defiant Light: Heal target ally for 50% of their maximum health over 10 seconds. If that target would receive fatal damage while under this effect, this effect is consumed and prevents that target's death, healing them for 25% of their maximum health instead. Divine Power: Any amount overhealed will chain to nearby allies.
These are just hypotheticals with no thought towards balance, of course.
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LennoxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Sjelden if what you get from my post is that I want WoW 2.0 then I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so low. My wife is a 2nd grade teacher, she could probably help tutor you if I ask really nicely. I by no means want a WoW clone nor do I want cleric to feel like a class from there. It is the game I have spent the most hours in so it is the place I find it easiest to draw comparisons.
Sorry you didn't like my long explanations. Since I'm one of like 100 people who have played the game, with much less than that playing cleric, I thought I'd try to make sure I provided background. Clearly the person who asked me to bring up my concerns in the public forums was mistaken. I should have just stuck to the private ones. But what can you do.
@arkileo without risking breaking NDA I would say don't read too much into the current tooltips on the wiki 😉 but I love these ideas. Finally someone who understood the assignment. I do think each heal, or maybe a subset of heals all having a divine version would be very interesting. I love where your head is at for these.
I did read most the post but want to chime in on "feedback "and how people react to it.
OP has put a great level of detail with constructive elements to what they find unfun in having played the Cleric and the purpose of the thread is to get ideas on how to improve it. This is a net win for Intrepid. The community have banded together and always points out any and everything and Intrepid are pretty receptive to feedback.
Whenever people say "wait for A2" or "Wait for Beta" or "Wait for release" I always say you're part of the problem. Never assume things will fix themselves. So OP is raising something they would like some attention drawn towards.
My assumption is that all the other classes (fighter/tank/mage) felt more enjoyable for other people who played (Maybe some PI's can chime in?) - but for this experience OP felt that Cleric was comparably unenjoyable.
Another point - people need to know the difference between Role and Class identity.
Role is what you do. Dps deeps, Tank tanks, Heal heals.
Class identity is how you do it.
I saw someone here post about healer mobility and that healers shouldn't have mobility because of their big heals.
To counter that point - shouldn't we have enough build diversity in our heals that you can spec to balance your combat ability between different attributes like Healing, Offense, Defense, Mobility, Rot (dot pressure?). I fully expect intrepid to allow this - but I think that conversation topics should be open enough that we can expect different shapes and flavours of the classes/archetypes etc.
Taking WoW as an easy example, you could break down healers into different kind of roles:
Priest: Healing Throughput, low defense, strong cooldowns
Paladin: Average healing, high defense, versatile cooldowns
Druid: Instant/Dot Healing, high mobility, average to high defense
Shaman: Highest Healing Throughput but cast heals, medium to high mobility, medium defense
Monk: Medium to high Healing, High Mobility, Low Offense
Not saying they are all accurate, but you had lots of healers where you knew they brought something unique. So I completely empathise with the idea that a class special which increases healing throughput and gives occasional instants? Feels more like a cooldown from within a kit, and less so part of what makes the class unique.
I did read most the post but want to chime in on "feedback "and how people react to it.
OP has put a great level of detail with constructive elements to what they find unfun in having played the Cleric and the purpose of the thread is to get ideas on how to improve it. This is a net win for Intrepid. The community have banded together and always points out any and everything and Intrepid are pretty receptive to feedback.
Whenever people say "wait for A2" or "Wait for Beta" or "Wait for release" I always say you're part of the problem. Never assume things will fix themselves. So OP is raising something they would like some attention drawn towards.
My assumption is that all the other classes (fighter/tank/mage) felt more enjoyable for other people who played (Maybe some PI's can chime in?) - but for this experience OP felt that Cleric was comparably unenjoyable.
Another point - people need to know the difference between Role and Class identity.
Role is what you do. Dps deeps, Tank tanks, Heal heals.
Class identity is how you do it.
I saw someone here post about healer mobility and that healers shouldn't have mobility because of their big heals.
To counter that point - shouldn't we have enough build diversity in our heals that you can spec to balance your combat ability between different attributes like Healing, Offense, Defense, Mobility, Rot (dot pressure?). I fully expect intrepid to allow this - but I think that conversation topics should be open enough that we can expect different shapes and flavours of the classes/archetypes etc.
Taking WoW as an easy example, you could break down healers into different kind of roles:
Priest: Healing Throughput, low defense, strong cooldowns
Paladin: Average healing, high defense, versatile cooldowns
Druid: Instant/Dot Healing, high mobility, average to high defense
Shaman: Highest Healing Throughput but cast heals, medium to high mobility, medium defense
Monk: Medium to high Healing, High Mobility, Low Offense
Not saying they are all accurate, but you had lots of healers where you knew they brought something unique. So I completely empathise with the idea that a class special which increases healing throughput and gives occasional instants? Feels more like a cooldown from within a kit, and less so part of what makes the class unique.
you can still have build diversity and balance your combat ability between different attributes without giving the cleric a bunch of dashes or making it more mobile than other classes. these things arent mutually exclussive.
@Lennox I am kind of confused on what the boring part was. It sounds like you're saying the spenders are boring but don't give reasons why they are boring. You more so state that taking instant cast spells wasn't a viable option due to mana constraints and likeliness of using the spell(balancing). You then proceed to mention the issues with spending the resource as fast as it came in and that you never get the buff(balancing).
"Well let's look back to the title. This is unbelievably boring. You could completely remove the resource, give 200% buff to cleric mana and ta-da, you have achieved the same affect. Talk about a snooze fest."
I think this is your main point and it is missed. You're talking about changing the idea of the resource as a spender and generator since we have mana. You also emphasize liking the buff so would you rather see the unique resource have a different action or purpose than what they are currently using it for like a buff?
Your secondary point was more combat abilities to spruce up the capability of the class, but I think this test isn't enough to say. We have plenty of offensive spells in my opinion at level 15(Judgment, Chains of restraint, condemn, consecrating wave, and smite). Who's to say a secondary augment and leveling doesn't spruce this up? I think this opinion is way too premature at this time.
Your argument on wings of salvation is a good question. Will we get more cc breaks as we level up? An important question to raise.
Your solutions don't make sense with your initial issue with the resource though. Your issue was mana being the same as the resource which makes it boring. Are you trying to find middle ground by working with the current system of the resource being a consumer/generator. This is changing the whole reason you came to the forum.
I think finding solutions outside of using the unique resource as consumer/generator are the ideas you want.
I think what you're going for is the equal to a druid in WoW where when you change into a form like boomkin you are accumulating astral power and using it all while having mana and balancing astral and solar power. I wouldn't mind seeing them mirror the idea of astral/solar power and how it is spent personally. It doesn't have to be the same mechanic, but I get what you're saying.
Sorry if this comes off as hostile. Purely meant to help break down what you said and state the main points and what issues we can actually provide valuable feedback on.
Just a couple notes. I think the mana consumption ability feels required because we don't have a resource management class for mana currently, which I think will end up being bard. And then the balance for whether you as a cleric are choosing to spec into your instant cast ability vs mana regeneration is how much you want your bard focusing on managing the healer's mana pool along with the rest of the party.
I'd really like to hear @Fantmx point of view on this, because it seems he played a more damage focused healer than you, Chibibree or most other PI. I definitely think that clerics should be able to forego being a primary healer and lean heavy on DPS, especially to help out with solo leveling clerics.
As someone who is a DPS primarily in games, we definitely have differing views on healers. Healers to me are a focal point in combat but should never be the "meta-focus" in PvP. My favorite parts of group PvP in New World was punishing players who mindlessly committed to attacking my healer.
Because of that I have a very different view on where the balance should be with healers. What you're describing to me sounds like a nightmare with a healer easily healing even a DPS role that's being focused. Tanks sure, but if a DPS is CC'd and focused for a couple seconds by another party they should easily die instead of needing to first distract the opponent's healer.
So my counter-suggestions for a skill would revolve around outplay potential such as using divine power to cancel a CC effect on a party member. Now it's also up to your party member to survive, and you have a higher chance to waste the ability.
And I definitely agree that there needs to be a nice movement ability for clerics. Maybe some nice angelic wings for a second or two to get out of a tricky spot.
I definitely think that clerics should be able to forego being a primary healer and lean heavy on DPS, especially to help out with solo leveling clerics.
really? ok let me ask you this. in a team oriented game (forget "solo mmorpg"), lets say you have a healer in your party of 8. do you want him to heal or dps and never heal?
what about in a raid with 5 parties of 8, do you want all 5 healers to dps and not heal?
can we say the same about the tank? what if the tank just goes full damage and he becomes as squishy as a dps?
when it comes to leveling, a healer shouldn't be able to kill as fast as a dps and also heal. a dps can kill faster but he will have to sit more often to regen hp. healers kill slower but can do so for a longer time since they don't have to recover hp (unless the mana consumption sucks, but they usually have something for that as well).
in a team oriented game (forget "solo mmorpg"), lets say you have a healer in your party of 8. do you want him to heal or dps and never heal?
what about in a raid with 5 parties of 8, do you want all 5 healers to dps and not heal?
If this is PvE, I'd want the main tank to be healed by a cleric/cleric fully spec'ed for healing and then I'd want the other clerics in other groups to have way more flexibility given the encounter and see what works best. It's not a question "do I just DPS or do I heal?", it's all about trading off throughput for extra DPS / other abilities.
when it comes to leveling, a healer shouldn't be able to kill as fast as a dps and also heal.
We're not talking about just "healers" though. The class is called cleric, and if you play D&D or Pathfinder they can spec into many other builds than just being a strict healer. I want Ashes to follow that design as well, clerics should probably have the most spec diversity in the game. Clerics should be able to move away from being a healer and have DPS, and I'm pretty sure this has been the design since the Cleric secondary archetype let's you choose either life or death augments.
You are never going to get a good iteration of Cleric that is not boring. Intrepid never had an interest of improving the class. That is why they allowed anyone to spam my thread and in fact to spam even yours with gibberish.
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LennoxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You are never going to get a good iteration of Cleric that is not boring. Intrepid never had an interest of improving the class. That is why they allowed anyone to spam my thread and in fact to spam even yours with gibberish.
I disagree that intrepid doesn't care. As PI we have had plenty of chats with the actual developers and during the node tests we got to see some of our suggestions tested in real time. I do believe the developers care about what we have to say and that they truly want the best for the game. If I didn't think feedback was heard or listened to I wouldn't have started this thread.
If I didn't think feedback was heard or listened to I wouldn't have started this thread.
Obviously, as I did in the past, from the moment I saw the preview I could tell the design is lackluster, the tooltips of the abilities were all out. I had a very lengthy, similar to yours, thread where I outlined what I perceived as a fault in the design and gave plentiful suggestions while simultaneously replying to nonsensical bullshit thrown randomly. Anyways, I am a spectator at this point. Godspeed to you.
in a team oriented game (forget "solo mmorpg"), lets say you have a healer in your party of 8. do you want him to heal or dps and never heal?
what about in a raid with 5 parties of 8, do you want all 5 healers to dps and not heal?
If this is PvE, I'd want the main tank to be healed by a cleric/cleric fully spec'ed for healing and then I'd want the other clerics in other groups to have way more flexibility given the encounter and see what works best. It's not a question "do I just DPS or do I heal?", it's all about trading off throughput for extra DPS / other abilities.
when it comes to leveling, a healer shouldn't be able to kill as fast as a dps and also heal.
We're not talking about just "healers" though. The class is called cleric, and if you play D&D or Pathfinder they can spec into many other builds than just being a strict healer. I want Ashes to follow that design as well, clerics should probably have the most spec diversity in the game. Clerics should be able to move away from being a healer and have DPS, and I'm pretty sure this has been the design since the Cleric secondary archetype let's you choose either life or death augments.
well, there you go. you expect the healers to heal. if the cleric can forego healing and go heavy into dps, then healers wont heal xD. note that this is different from tilting the scales a bit. you can lose a lil bit of healing to gain a lil bit of dps. the reason I replied to you with this was because you said lose healing to go HEAVILY into dpsing. keyword being heavily.
clerics are different in every game. you can play as a battle priest/high priest/bishop/cardinal in ro but doesn't mean you will do more dps than a dps, or that you should.
just because a game did something, doesn't mean another game has to or should. I'm not opposed to clerics having some hybridization depending on 2ndary archetype and augments, but not to the point where they transform completely and change roles (same as for other archetypes, imagine a ranger picking 2ndary tank and becoming the main tank of a world boss, weird af).
so we will have 8 flavors of cleric, each one with different build options (so maybe more than 8 flavors of cleric?). death augments doesn't automatically mean dps or even damage. a master of death could be a master of preventing it, for example.
Im still on team mobility. I would sacrifice survivability for mobility if our mobility decided our survivability and we could pair this with our healing. Rangers have it in their kit.
Sorry you didn't like my long explanations. Since I'm one of like 100 people who have played the game, with much less than that playing cleric, I thought I'd try to make sure I provided background. Clearly the person who asked me to bring up my concerns in the public forums was mistaken. I should have just stuck to the private ones. But what can you do.
The 'problem' here is that PI members are the only ones who currently know 'what the developers want or have in mind' (assuming even y'all got told that).
For the rest of us, it's almost always unclear what pieces of the game are on which spectrum of 'just for testing', vs 'we like it but we could change it', vs 'set in stone'. So, even though you are one who has played and isn't speculating, unless you have freedom to say 'no, a Dev was asking us how to fix the fact that we didn't enjoy this', there's not much point in doing what you ask/suggest before A2 (in terms of effort, interacting with other posters, etc).
For what it's worth I expected what you said, once I saw Archetypes other than Cleric. Underlying game 'style' issue, to me. That's why I'm so thankful for all the explanation in the post, it helped confirm a lot of perspective.
I don't have anything to add though, because I don't see the problem as one that can be fixed by altering Cleric, i think of it as a fundamental (personal) issue with the way Ashes combat and Archetypes are designed at the moment.
I guess my question is actually if the Conviction still affects the number of targets of the targeted cleanse 'beam', and do you count that as a 'Spender' of the resource? If so, did you either 'not need it/not spec it' or 'used it but found it boring or an interference to the playstyle you prefer, instead of something interesting'?
I always felt like healing should not give the cleric a resource that increases healing output. I feel like if they want healing to give you a resource it should fuel utility spells or maybe damage. Or utility/damage should fuel healing. I never really liked resources where output increases output of the same type.
I Do think clerics need more way to express their skill than basic health bar juggling, They should be able to have more HOTs and DOTS, They should have some skill expression with either area denial/ or movement of themselves or others and make these choices in the class tree give a wide variance so it feels impactful and your not a health bar juggling bot.
Giving players choices and nuance should be important as its usually an unrepresented class in the wide spread of class population. These choices should be seen even as early as level 15. Yes augments should fix some of these issues, however some of this should be represented much earlier into the levels, especially if they want to have a health Healer Population in this game.
you can still have build diversity and balance your combat ability between different attributes without giving the cleric a bunch of dashes or making it more mobile than other classes. these things arent mutually exclussive.
My take is that you balance the scales in the full potential toolkit, think sliders. Yours is the same, but you want to exclude cleric from having mobility AT ALL.
We want the same thing bar you wanting to exclude that - but if they gained mobility the logic is that they would lose in other areas. I don't see an issue with giving the cleric (and ANY archetype) the option to spec into mobility options, IN EXCHANGE for forgoing the options which would give them more healing, defense or damage etc.
Since I'm one of like 100 people who have played the game, with much less than that playing cleric, I thought I'd try to make sure I provided background. Clearly the person who asked me to bring up my concerns in the public forums was mistaken. I should have just stuck to the private ones.
As someone that also plays Healer, I found it very interesting. Please continue!
Yokai TheaterMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’ll say what I said in my own feedback post as well as what I say all the time when we are doing events like office hours, just chatting in VC, when I’m making content, etc. Intrepid is looking/asking for feedback, not fishing for compliments. It is ok to have a negative opinion and give constructive criticism, it does AoC no good if we are just yes men (and/or women) white knighting the game. If you are someone that truly believes the cleric is in a good place right now and can see no ways that it could be improved then that’s fine, that’s your feedback and you're not wrong in thinking that way. But to those that are just trying to shut down someone giving their opinion on how the game could be better, you're not helping, you're part of the problem.
Just like a lot of you on here I love Ashes of Creation and I love Intrepid. My own feedback may seem harsh in text form or I myself may come off as an overly opinionated loudmouth but I want this game to be the best that it can be and don't want us to settle for just ok or mediocrity. I think that if you love something you should be able to criticize it (not that you are entitled to criticize, but that because you love something you should be even more so able to point out its flaws).
I am also well aware that there are a lot of people with the mentality of “it’s too soon”, “I need to wait and see”, or “oh it’s just alpha” as well as quite a few people that feel upset with AoC and Intrepid right now and think that giving feedback is somehow not worth it. To all these people I want to say that Intrepid is asking for feedback based on what we are seeing and experiencing, yes you need to come at it with a mindset of it’s still early, all subject to change, or maybe you just don’t like it, but not giving feedback is the worst thing you can do. By not giving your feedback you are not helping the game grow and/or letting the opinions of others dictate the direction AoC may take.
If you are someone that disagrees with the original poster @Lennox and think that “it's too early”, “its only level 15”, or that “we need to wait for augments” I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, the class may feel better / completely different and we will be able to give better feedback. But none of that was present in the cleric showcase when Intrepid was asking for the same kind of feedback that the OP is providing, that goes for all the showcase / feedback requests. Intrepid knows that its an alpha, subject to change, and that it would be easier for all of us to give our feedback once we are all in the game testing but we aren't there yet and they are asking for our opinions based on what we are able to see.
Yes, the intent of these Node War tests we took part in were not test class balancing or anything like that, the focus was meant to be on the Node War event itself. However Lennox and many other testers ate just providing extra feedback on the classes now that they have been given the chance to test them and talk about them in a public setting.
Now on to my actual Cleric feedback as a PI tester. I think that cleric is in kind of an odd spot, the cleric right now is strong due to its self-sustainability, and you also serve a crucial role due to your healing and revives, however even with these facts I think the class is boring (cleric main by the way). I think a simple fix for this would be adding more movement to the class, currently all it has is Wings of Salvation. Not that I think that the Cleric should be one of the most mobile classes, I actually think it should be maybe one of the least, but I think all the classes need more movement and mobility.
Cleric has some utility in its kit outside of just healing but It could definitely use more like more shields, auras, and HOTs. Maybe things that allow you to get ahead of the problem instead of just always patching it.
It has also been a while but in the past Clerics were described as being masters of both life and death so I would love to see that identity be brought into the cleric’s design. Right now it has a lot of focus on healing and radiant damage but I would love to see necrotic damage be added to the kit for more build diversity. This could give the class access to necrotic DOTs, anti-healing, and other forms of healing.
The cleric's resource and identity skill is really bland. The class resource of divine power is a basic you heal more you get to heal better, capping out at about 10%. And the skill has two options with one just clearly being better than the other and even then it's just using your divine power instead of your mana (think every cleric opted for this one).
Lastly just to give people some context, throughout the test I have tried to play the Cleric in a lot of different ways. I have tried a ranged healer, a tanky healer, more of a damage dealer, etc. and so far my favorite has been more of a front line melee healer. In the test we can talk about there were a lot of different sets of gear but really only about 4 stat sets, a Dexterity set, a Strength set, a Constitution set, and an Intelligence set. The Cleric really wants Intelligence because your mana pool increases with INT, your heals scale off of INT, and the damage from your skills scale off of INT allowing you to triple dip.
Thank you for your time, I think that the direction that AoC is heading is a good one. I have always been and will always be here to support this project.
you can still have build diversity and balance your combat ability between different attributes without giving the cleric a bunch of dashes or making it more mobile than other classes. these things arent mutually exclussive.
My take is that you balance the scales in the full potential toolkit, think sliders. Yours is the same, but you want to exclude cleric from having mobility AT ALL.
We want the same thing bar you wanting to exclude that - but if they gained mobility the logic is that they would lose in other areas. I don't see an issue with giving the cleric (and ANY archetype) the option to spec into mobility options, IN EXCHANGE for forgoing the options which would give them more healing, defense or damage etc.
1- class fantasy. the same way you wouldn't see a tank dashing all over the place like a rogue or running faster than everything else or jumping around like a ranger, or a rogue that doesn't have sliperiness (stealth, mobility, etc), you arent going to see a cleric moving around all over the place, or running faster than a rogue or an archer.
2- and probably more important, balance. group helping and get hit? no problem, dash back and keep healing. you will never die. imagine a class that can heal, its hard to kill, can win any 1v1 despite lower damage because other classes cant heal, and on top of that you want mobility so if its ever going to die in solo or group play, now it wont.
i liked the dash that intrepid came up with though, because you cant simply just use it. you have to dash to a party member and its a support skill.
I want to go back to the old statement of clerics are meant to be masters of life and death. So where's my death magic? Well how about we put it right here? How about a soul drain? I can channel a beam similar to the single target heal idea, but now it deals damage. Maybe it also puts a negative status effect like a slow or something. Or maybe we worry less about the amount of damage it deals, and just the utility it could provide. How about like an unholy nova that pushes enemies away and puts a DoT of some kind on them? Or if we stay single target, maybe some kind of deathly chains and these will work with your other damaging abilities, doing extra burst of damage when hit by your divine damage spells. Maybe you toggle it and it turns you into someone ready to dish out the damage by infusing my weapons with death. I really feel like the possibilities here are endless. And this would also lean a long way into being able to do some solo pve content (i.e. leveling up) with a little less pain. I know we should just group up, but I still want to be able to kill some mobs man. On a quick tangent. Where are my death type spells? Is this still the intended path for cleric? I for one hope so. As masters of life, doesn't that also give me purview over death?
...
The very last idea I want to give out would be to play much more heavily into the life/death ideas. Maybe you should have two different resource bars, one of divine power one of unholy power. Or maybe you have one bar that at rest has you at 50 divine power and 50 unholy power and depending on spells cast it shifts that bar around to encourage you to cast both types of spells.
It has also been a while but in the past Clerics were described as being masters of both life and death so I would love to see that identity be brought into the cleric’s design. Right now it has a lot of focus on healing and radiant damage but I would love to see necrotic damage be added to the kit for more build diversity. This could give the class access to necrotic DOTs, anti-healing, and other forms of healing.
100% agree with this feedback. It is something I really want to see for the class. I really like the concept of Cleric being master of life and death, and would love if Clerics can spec into almost any point along the Heal / Damage spectrum, with healing tradeoffs depending on how much damage you want to do. Same with mobility; it should be a spectrum with tradeoffs.
I would also like good spec options to counter / weaken opposing Clerics.
@Lennox@Yokai Theater Thanks for the extensive feedback and I totally agree now is the time to voice any concerns before the class is fully baked.
I would very much like to see divine power be used in ways like Ceric domain powers in D&D. It would be amazing if Religious choice would have more impact on Cleric powers than the augments would for other classes and especially if they spent Divine Power in dramatic ways.
Sure, let us just carbon copy everything from World of Warcraft. Because that worked out great for every other wow-clone out there...
Even if People re-name/re-make a Warrior/Fighters Ressource into Rage or whatever,
or a Rogue into Stamina,
or a Hunter into Focus,
main Importance is only not to "copy" WoW's more than shitty, soul-less Design of pathetic Storywriting since BfA and doing countless Grinds and Dailies.
I am far more willing to spend my Time constantly fighting for my Node, Guild, Friends, Allies, Castle, etc.,
than doing Weeks on Weeks on End grinding Factions i don't care about,
only so my Mounts can have certain Skins, Colors, etc - or if i can finally wear a Backpack that i personally only want to have for a Role-Play Look on my Character.
But main Importance - > i finally want to see "SOMEONE" taking Players from Blizzard away. That Piece of you-know-what Company that took the Shxt on it's Customers far to often, far to long - and even in racist, "anti-white Ways".
I loved Worst of Warcraft for a long time.
But i freakin' HATE Activision Blizzard.
The Game still deserves the leftover Remnants of my old Love. The Company - > does not.
I hope i will live to see the Day in which Ashes finally Releases. This Grudge of mine against Blizzard will never go away. I could touch everysingle culm of Grass on this whole Planet and it wouldn't go away.
And also,
i finally want to be in a Fantasy World in which i can adore and admire my beloved Area's i am in, in all the four different Seasons of the Year.
F~ing MMO Genre and it's disguting Struggle to actually truly fight the Monopoly of a certain, shitty Company. What would i give if Ashes would be out and ready for about Five Years already and CONSTANTLY taking a bit of a crap on Blizzard and it's "formerly fat Years of Income" with it's Existence alone.
To bad it is j~uuuuuust as i always thought. I never get disappointed with my shitty Expectations. ^.^
I knew that "WHEN" a Game should ever get developed still again in this Life of mine - > it will take an ETERNITY to come out - and struggle and fight hard along the Way to be the Fun we all want.
Why ?
Because that would be to nice to come quickly. ^.^ x'D
Yes i am not Sorry for this kinda Rant of mine. I just know i am by far not the only Person who feels this way. A "Monopoly" on a FAT Income of Cash in the MMO Genre is never good.
No single Company should ever have the clear upper Hand. You see what it does.
The cleric's resource and identity skill is really bland. The class resource of divine power is a basic you heal more you get to heal better, capping out at about 10%. And the skill has two options with one just clearly being better than the other and even then it's just using your divine power instead of your mana (think every cleric opted for this one).
Lastly just to give people some context, throughout the test I have tried to play the Cleric in a lot of different ways. I have tried a ranged healer, a tanky healer, more of a damage dealer, etc. and so far my favorite has been more of a front line melee healer. In the test we can talk about there were a lot of different sets of gear but really only about 4 stat sets, a Dexterity set, a Strength set, a Constitution set, and an Intelligence set. The Cleric really wants Intelligence because your mana pool increases with INT, your heals scale off of INT, and the damage from your skills scale off of INT allowing you to triple dip.
Thank you for your time, I think that the direction that AoC is heading is a good one. I have always been and will always be here to support this project.
Much thanks to you, also.
I'm really 'concerned' that this is still where we are, but only in the sense of expecting that Alpha-2 is going to take foreverrrrr.
I guess I'll ask the same thing of you, @Yokai Theater , that I was sorta-asking @Lennox. Did you actually need to, or benefit from, Cleansing anything? Cleric still has that 'cleanse beam', right?
Seems to me like mana issues are supposed to be fixed by the presence of bards, and that perhaps higher level characters will present more interesting skills.
You seem to be comparing a WOW endgame healer to an AOC level 15 healer. If we compare level 15 in WOW to level 15 in AOC, A lv 15 Holy Priest in WoW has Lesser Heal, Renew, and PW: Shield at level 15, along with a number of utility spells like Fade and Psychic Scream. Inner Fire, Cure Disease, Resurrection. Considering the available spells in AOC, it feels like you have a number of choices about the number of targets, casting speed/efficiency, etc.... rather than in WoW, where you get to throw Renew around a bit and you get to cancel-cast Lesser Heal for most of the fight. The fact that you made a determination about using the secondary resource one way or another is proof of the depth of the Lv 15 AOC Cleric.
Lv 15 in both games is a toe in the water; I wouldn't expect any complicated mechanics on showcase for either games. Many of your suggestions are likely in the works for higher levels of play, but I wouldn't want those options to be accessible too early into a new player's journey.
The quick-finish cast might be a salvagable idea, but it doesn't fit in the Cleric toolkit right now for reasons already stated by others: Flash Heal does this better, lack of a really impactful pairing to use it with, and it doesn't fit with all styles of play.
Even with Flash Heal being in game, the last two probably matter more. That is to say, if the Cleric had like a 6 second channel that cast the equivalent of Judgment on all allies and enemies in an area, it's now easy to see how the quick-finish skill would get more play.
... ... ... being curious over here. Was it worth the Concentration ? Out from 1 to 10, what would you rate it ?
A solid 8. It always interests me to read the perspective of someone that's already experienced what I'm interested in anyway, and they made some insightful points. As somebody that also regularly plays a Healer, I could empathise with the intent of the post.
Comments
Here's an idea: What if instead of having abilities specifically for spending your divine power, all abilities could spend it to add a modifier of some kind. Maybe there would be an ability you would use, and then the next ability you cast would consume your divine power. Let's just call that ability "Consume Divine Power" for example.
So you'd do your healing, building divine power as before. Then some specific situation would occur where the divine power modifier on an ability would be useful. You'd cast "Consume Divine Power" and then the next ability will have its Divine Power modifier. A few hypotheical examples, building on existing abilities:
Consecrating Wave: Send forth a cone of radiance that deals radiant damage to all enemies while healing the ten nearest allies. Divine Power: Also cleanses allies of any movement-impairing effects.
Divine Flare: Place a targeted area heal on the ground that heals all targets within after several seconds. Total healing is split between all targets hit. Divine Power: All targets receive the full heal amount.
Defiant Light: Heal target ally for 50% of their maximum health over 10 seconds. If that target would receive fatal damage while under this effect, this effect is consumed and prevents that target's death, healing them for 25% of their maximum health instead. Divine Power: Any amount overhealed will chain to nearby allies.
These are just hypotheticals with no thought towards balance, of course.
Sorry you didn't like my long explanations. Since I'm one of like 100 people who have played the game, with much less than that playing cleric, I thought I'd try to make sure I provided background. Clearly the person who asked me to bring up my concerns in the public forums was mistaken. I should have just stuck to the private ones. But what can you do.
@arkileo without risking breaking NDA I would say don't read too much into the current tooltips on the wiki 😉 but I love these ideas. Finally someone who understood the assignment. I do think each heal, or maybe a subset of heals all having a divine version would be very interesting. I love where your head is at for these.
OP has put a great level of detail with constructive elements to what they find unfun in having played the Cleric and the purpose of the thread is to get ideas on how to improve it. This is a net win for Intrepid. The community have banded together and always points out any and everything and Intrepid are pretty receptive to feedback.
Whenever people say "wait for A2" or "Wait for Beta" or "Wait for release" I always say you're part of the problem. Never assume things will fix themselves. So OP is raising something they would like some attention drawn towards.
My assumption is that all the other classes (fighter/tank/mage) felt more enjoyable for other people who played (Maybe some PI's can chime in?) - but for this experience OP felt that Cleric was comparably unenjoyable.
Another point - people need to know the difference between Role and Class identity.
Role is what you do. Dps deeps, Tank tanks, Heal heals.
Class identity is how you do it.
I saw someone here post about healer mobility and that healers shouldn't have mobility because of their big heals.
To counter that point - shouldn't we have enough build diversity in our heals that you can spec to balance your combat ability between different attributes like Healing, Offense, Defense, Mobility, Rot (dot pressure?). I fully expect intrepid to allow this - but I think that conversation topics should be open enough that we can expect different shapes and flavours of the classes/archetypes etc.
Taking WoW as an easy example, you could break down healers into different kind of roles:
Priest: Healing Throughput, low defense, strong cooldowns
Paladin: Average healing, high defense, versatile cooldowns
Druid: Instant/Dot Healing, high mobility, average to high defense
Shaman: Highest Healing Throughput but cast heals, medium to high mobility, medium defense
Monk: Medium to high Healing, High Mobility, Low Offense
Not saying they are all accurate, but you had lots of healers where you knew they brought something unique. So I completely empathise with the idea that a class special which increases healing throughput and gives occasional instants? Feels more like a cooldown from within a kit, and less so part of what makes the class unique.
you can still have build diversity and balance your combat ability between different attributes without giving the cleric a bunch of dashes or making it more mobile than other classes. these things arent mutually exclussive.
"Well let's look back to the title. This is unbelievably boring. You could completely remove the resource, give 200% buff to cleric mana and ta-da, you have achieved the same affect. Talk about a snooze fest."
I think this is your main point and it is missed. You're talking about changing the idea of the resource as a spender and generator since we have mana. You also emphasize liking the buff so would you rather see the unique resource have a different action or purpose than what they are currently using it for like a buff?
Your secondary point was more combat abilities to spruce up the capability of the class, but I think this test isn't enough to say. We have plenty of offensive spells in my opinion at level 15(Judgment, Chains of restraint, condemn, consecrating wave, and smite). Who's to say a secondary augment and leveling doesn't spruce this up? I think this opinion is way too premature at this time.
Your argument on wings of salvation is a good question. Will we get more cc breaks as we level up? An important question to raise.
Your solutions don't make sense with your initial issue with the resource though. Your issue was mana being the same as the resource which makes it boring. Are you trying to find middle ground by working with the current system of the resource being a consumer/generator. This is changing the whole reason you came to the forum.
I think finding solutions outside of using the unique resource as consumer/generator are the ideas you want.
I think what you're going for is the equal to a druid in WoW where when you change into a form like boomkin you are accumulating astral power and using it all while having mana and balancing astral and solar power. I wouldn't mind seeing them mirror the idea of astral/solar power and how it is spent personally. It doesn't have to be the same mechanic, but I get what you're saying.
Sorry if this comes off as hostile. Purely meant to help break down what you said and state the main points and what issues we can actually provide valuable feedback on.
Just a couple notes. I think the mana consumption ability feels required because we don't have a resource management class for mana currently, which I think will end up being bard. And then the balance for whether you as a cleric are choosing to spec into your instant cast ability vs mana regeneration is how much you want your bard focusing on managing the healer's mana pool along with the rest of the party.
I'd really like to hear @Fantmx point of view on this, because it seems he played a more damage focused healer than you, Chibibree or most other PI. I definitely think that clerics should be able to forego being a primary healer and lean heavy on DPS, especially to help out with solo leveling clerics.
As someone who is a DPS primarily in games, we definitely have differing views on healers. Healers to me are a focal point in combat but should never be the "meta-focus" in PvP. My favorite parts of group PvP in New World was punishing players who mindlessly committed to attacking my healer.
Because of that I have a very different view on where the balance should be with healers. What you're describing to me sounds like a nightmare with a healer easily healing even a DPS role that's being focused. Tanks sure, but if a DPS is CC'd and focused for a couple seconds by another party they should easily die instead of needing to first distract the opponent's healer.
So my counter-suggestions for a skill would revolve around outplay potential such as using divine power to cancel a CC effect on a party member. Now it's also up to your party member to survive, and you have a higher chance to waste the ability.
And I definitely agree that there needs to be a nice movement ability for clerics. Maybe some nice angelic wings for a second or two to get out of a tricky spot.
really? ok let me ask you this. in a team oriented game (forget "solo mmorpg"), lets say you have a healer in your party of 8. do you want him to heal or dps and never heal?
what about in a raid with 5 parties of 8, do you want all 5 healers to dps and not heal?
can we say the same about the tank? what if the tank just goes full damage and he becomes as squishy as a dps?
when it comes to leveling, a healer shouldn't be able to kill as fast as a dps and also heal. a dps can kill faster but he will have to sit more often to regen hp. healers kill slower but can do so for a longer time since they don't have to recover hp (unless the mana consumption sucks, but they usually have something for that as well).
If this is PvE, I'd want the main tank to be healed by a cleric/cleric fully spec'ed for healing and then I'd want the other clerics in other groups to have way more flexibility given the encounter and see what works best. It's not a question "do I just DPS or do I heal?", it's all about trading off throughput for extra DPS / other abilities.
We're not talking about just "healers" though. The class is called cleric, and if you play D&D or Pathfinder they can spec into many other builds than just being a strict healer. I want Ashes to follow that design as well, clerics should probably have the most spec diversity in the game. Clerics should be able to move away from being a healer and have DPS, and I'm pretty sure this has been the design since the Cleric secondary archetype let's you choose either life or death augments.
I disagree that intrepid doesn't care. As PI we have had plenty of chats with the actual developers and during the node tests we got to see some of our suggestions tested in real time. I do believe the developers care about what we have to say and that they truly want the best for the game. If I didn't think feedback was heard or listened to I wouldn't have started this thread.
Obviously, as I did in the past, from the moment I saw the preview I could tell the design is lackluster, the tooltips of the abilities were all out. I had a very lengthy, similar to yours, thread where I outlined what I perceived as a fault in the design and gave plentiful suggestions while simultaneously replying to nonsensical bullshit thrown randomly. Anyways, I am a spectator at this point. Godspeed to you.
well, there you go. you expect the healers to heal. if the cleric can forego healing and go heavy into dps, then healers wont heal xD. note that this is different from tilting the scales a bit. you can lose a lil bit of healing to gain a lil bit of dps. the reason I replied to you with this was because you said lose healing to go HEAVILY into dpsing. keyword being heavily.
clerics are different in every game. you can play as a battle priest/high priest/bishop/cardinal in ro but doesn't mean you will do more dps than a dps, or that you should.
just because a game did something, doesn't mean another game has to or should. I'm not opposed to clerics having some hybridization depending on 2ndary archetype and augments, but not to the point where they transform completely and change roles (same as for other archetypes, imagine a ranger picking 2ndary tank and becoming the main tank of a world boss, weird af).
so we will have 8 flavors of cleric, each one with different build options (so maybe more than 8 flavors of cleric?). death augments doesn't automatically mean dps or even damage. a master of death could be a master of preventing it, for example.
The 'problem' here is that PI members are the only ones who currently know 'what the developers want or have in mind' (assuming even y'all got told that).
For the rest of us, it's almost always unclear what pieces of the game are on which spectrum of 'just for testing', vs 'we like it but we could change it', vs 'set in stone'. So, even though you are one who has played and isn't speculating, unless you have freedom to say 'no, a Dev was asking us how to fix the fact that we didn't enjoy this', there's not much point in doing what you ask/suggest before A2 (in terms of effort, interacting with other posters, etc).
For what it's worth I expected what you said, once I saw Archetypes other than Cleric. Underlying game 'style' issue, to me. That's why I'm so thankful for all the explanation in the post, it helped confirm a lot of perspective.
I don't have anything to add though, because I don't see the problem as one that can be fixed by altering Cleric, i think of it as a fundamental (personal) issue with the way Ashes combat and Archetypes are designed at the moment.
I guess my question is actually if the Conviction still affects the number of targets of the targeted cleanse 'beam', and do you count that as a 'Spender' of the resource? If so, did you either 'not need it/not spec it' or 'used it but found it boring or an interference to the playstyle you prefer, instead of something interesting'?
Can't really add much either way til we get our hands in it.
@Lennox , relax man. You're being instantly defensive. About 10 people have said thanks for the input.
Giving players choices and nuance should be important as its usually an unrepresented class in the wide spread of class population. These choices should be seen even as early as level 15. Yes augments should fix some of these issues, however some of this should be represented much earlier into the levels, especially if they want to have a health Healer Population in this game.
My two cents anyways
My take is that you balance the scales in the full potential toolkit, think sliders. Yours is the same, but you want to exclude cleric from having mobility AT ALL.
We want the same thing bar you wanting to exclude that - but if they gained mobility the logic is that they would lose in other areas. I don't see an issue with giving the cleric (and ANY archetype) the option to spec into mobility options, IN EXCHANGE for forgoing the options which would give them more healing, defense or damage etc.
As someone that also plays Healer, I found it very interesting. Please continue!
I know! I'm growing as a person
Just like a lot of you on here I love Ashes of Creation and I love Intrepid. My own feedback may seem harsh in text form or I myself may come off as an overly opinionated loudmouth but I want this game to be the best that it can be and don't want us to settle for just ok or mediocrity. I think that if you love something you should be able to criticize it (not that you are entitled to criticize, but that because you love something you should be even more so able to point out its flaws).
I am also well aware that there are a lot of people with the mentality of “it’s too soon”, “I need to wait and see”, or “oh it’s just alpha” as well as quite a few people that feel upset with AoC and Intrepid right now and think that giving feedback is somehow not worth it. To all these people I want to say that Intrepid is asking for feedback based on what we are seeing and experiencing, yes you need to come at it with a mindset of it’s still early, all subject to change, or maybe you just don’t like it, but not giving feedback is the worst thing you can do. By not giving your feedback you are not helping the game grow and/or letting the opinions of others dictate the direction AoC may take.
If you are someone that disagrees with the original poster @Lennox and think that “it's too early”, “its only level 15”, or that “we need to wait for augments” I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, the class may feel better / completely different and we will be able to give better feedback. But none of that was present in the cleric showcase when Intrepid was asking for the same kind of feedback that the OP is providing, that goes for all the showcase / feedback requests. Intrepid knows that its an alpha, subject to change, and that it would be easier for all of us to give our feedback once we are all in the game testing but we aren't there yet and they are asking for our opinions based on what we are able to see.
Yes, the intent of these Node War tests we took part in were not test class balancing or anything like that, the focus was meant to be on the Node War event itself. However Lennox and many other testers ate just providing extra feedback on the classes now that they have been given the chance to test them and talk about them in a public setting.
Now on to my actual Cleric feedback as a PI tester. I think that cleric is in kind of an odd spot, the cleric right now is strong due to its self-sustainability, and you also serve a crucial role due to your healing and revives, however even with these facts I think the class is boring (cleric main by the way). I think a simple fix for this would be adding more movement to the class, currently all it has is Wings of Salvation. Not that I think that the Cleric should be one of the most mobile classes, I actually think it should be maybe one of the least, but I think all the classes need more movement and mobility.
Cleric has some utility in its kit outside of just healing but It could definitely use more like more shields, auras, and HOTs. Maybe things that allow you to get ahead of the problem instead of just always patching it.
It has also been a while but in the past Clerics were described as being masters of both life and death so I would love to see that identity be brought into the cleric’s design. Right now it has a lot of focus on healing and radiant damage but I would love to see necrotic damage be added to the kit for more build diversity. This could give the class access to necrotic DOTs, anti-healing, and other forms of healing.
The cleric's resource and identity skill is really bland. The class resource of divine power is a basic you heal more you get to heal better, capping out at about 10%. And the skill has two options with one just clearly being better than the other and even then it's just using your divine power instead of your mana (think every cleric opted for this one).
Lastly just to give people some context, throughout the test I have tried to play the Cleric in a lot of different ways. I have tried a ranged healer, a tanky healer, more of a damage dealer, etc. and so far my favorite has been more of a front line melee healer. In the test we can talk about there were a lot of different sets of gear but really only about 4 stat sets, a Dexterity set, a Strength set, a Constitution set, and an Intelligence set. The Cleric really wants Intelligence because your mana pool increases with INT, your heals scale off of INT, and the damage from your skills scale off of INT allowing you to triple dip.
Thank you for your time, I think that the direction that AoC is heading is a good one. I have always been and will always be here to support this project.
1- class fantasy. the same way you wouldn't see a tank dashing all over the place like a rogue or running faster than everything else or jumping around like a ranger, or a rogue that doesn't have sliperiness (stealth, mobility, etc), you arent going to see a cleric moving around all over the place, or running faster than a rogue or an archer.
2- and probably more important, balance. group helping and get hit? no problem, dash back and keep healing. you will never die. imagine a class that can heal, its hard to kill, can win any 1v1 despite lower damage because other classes cant heal, and on top of that you want mobility so if its ever going to die in solo or group play, now it wont.
i liked the dash that intrepid came up with though, because you cant simply just use it. you have to dash to a party member and its a support skill.
100% agree with this feedback. It is something I really want to see for the class. I really like the concept of Cleric being master of life and death, and would love if Clerics can spec into almost any point along the Heal / Damage spectrum, with healing tradeoffs depending on how much damage you want to do. Same with mobility; it should be a spectrum with tradeoffs.
I would also like good spec options to counter / weaken opposing Clerics.
@Lennox @Yokai Theater Thanks for the extensive feedback and I totally agree now is the time to voice any concerns before the class is fully baked.
Even if People re-name/re-make a Warrior/Fighters Ressource into Rage or whatever,
or a Rogue into Stamina,
or a Hunter into Focus,
main Importance is only not to "copy" WoW's more than shitty, soul-less Design of pathetic Storywriting since BfA and doing countless Grinds and Dailies.
I am far more willing to spend my Time constantly fighting for my Node, Guild, Friends, Allies, Castle, etc.,
than doing Weeks on Weeks on End grinding Factions i don't care about,
only so my Mounts can have certain Skins, Colors, etc - or if i can finally wear a Backpack that i personally only want to have for a Role-Play Look on my Character.
But main Importance - > i finally want to see "SOMEONE" taking Players from Blizzard away. That Piece of you-know-what Company that took the Shxt on it's Customers far to often, far to long - and even in racist, "anti-white Ways".
I loved Worst of Warcraft for a long time.
But i freakin' HATE Activision Blizzard.
The Game still deserves the leftover Remnants of my old Love. The Company - > does not.
I hope i will live to see the Day in which Ashes finally Releases. This Grudge of mine against Blizzard will never go away. I could touch everysingle culm of Grass on this whole Planet and it wouldn't go away.
And also,
i finally want to be in a Fantasy World in which i can adore and admire my beloved Area's i am in, in all the four different Seasons of the Year.
F~ing MMO Genre and it's disguting Struggle to actually truly fight the Monopoly of a certain, shitty Company. What would i give if Ashes would be out and ready for about Five Years already and CONSTANTLY taking a bit of a crap on Blizzard and it's "formerly fat Years of Income" with it's Existence alone.
To bad it is j~uuuuuust as i always thought. I never get disappointed with my shitty Expectations. ^.^
I knew that "WHEN" a Game should ever get developed still again in this Life of mine - > it will take an ETERNITY to come out - and struggle and fight hard along the Way to be the Fun we all want.
Why ?
Because that would be to nice to come quickly. ^.^ x'D
Yes i am not Sorry for this kinda Rant of mine. I just know i am by far not the only Person who feels this way. A "Monopoly" on a FAT Income of Cash in the MMO Genre is never good.
No single Company should ever have the clear upper Hand. You see what it does.
... ... ... being curious over here. Was it worth the Concentration ? Out from 1 to 10, what would you rate it ?
Much thanks to you, also.
I'm really 'concerned' that this is still where we are, but only in the sense of expecting that Alpha-2 is going to take foreverrrrr.
I guess I'll ask the same thing of you, @Yokai Theater , that I was sorta-asking @Lennox. Did you actually need to, or benefit from, Cleansing anything? Cleric still has that 'cleanse beam', right?
You seem to be comparing a WOW endgame healer to an AOC level 15 healer. If we compare level 15 in WOW to level 15 in AOC, A lv 15 Holy Priest in WoW has Lesser Heal, Renew, and PW: Shield at level 15, along with a number of utility spells like Fade and Psychic Scream. Inner Fire, Cure Disease, Resurrection. Considering the available spells in AOC, it feels like you have a number of choices about the number of targets, casting speed/efficiency, etc.... rather than in WoW, where you get to throw Renew around a bit and you get to cancel-cast Lesser Heal for most of the fight. The fact that you made a determination about using the secondary resource one way or another is proof of the depth of the Lv 15 AOC Cleric.
Lv 15 in both games is a toe in the water; I wouldn't expect any complicated mechanics on showcase for either games. Many of your suggestions are likely in the works for higher levels of play, but I wouldn't want those options to be accessible too early into a new player's journey.
Even with Flash Heal being in game, the last two probably matter more. That is to say, if the Cleric had like a 6 second channel that cast the equivalent of Judgment on all allies and enemies in an area, it's now easy to see how the quick-finish skill would get more play.
A solid 8. It always interests me to read the perspective of someone that's already experienced what I'm interested in anyway, and they made some insightful points. As somebody that also regularly plays a Healer, I could empathise with the intent of the post.