How about instead of charging the divine power automatically, you need to eat a spell as you cast it?
For example, you cast a long heal, and then cancel the cast by pressing the divine power which eats the spell and gains divine power based on how strong the heal was going to be.
Creates a decision: Can I get away with charging up the divine power right now?
Could be a tough call in the middle of a battle. Requires game sense.
Healers notoriously have blank space downtime at the beginning of battles and throughout fights anyways, gives them something to fill the space with if they aren't attacking or healing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I Do think clerics need more way to express their skill than basic health bar juggling, They should be able to have more HOTs and DOTS, They should have some skill expression with either area denial/ or movement of themselves or others and make these choices in the class tree give a wide variance so it feels impactful and your not a health bar juggling bot.
Giving players choices and nuance should be important as its usually an unrepresented class in the wide spread of class population. These choices should be seen even as early as level 15. Yes augments should fix some of these issues, however some of this should be represented much earlier into the levels, especially if they want to have a health Healer Population in this game.
My two cents anyways
Hmm. More HoTs seems likely covered by Cleric/Cleric. Also, I wonder how Weapons might add to that.
There will certainly be Augments, from a variety of sources, that will allow players to apply DoTs.
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FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is not too late in the game to give class and skill feedback. A great example is the tank wall. That was changed significantly from test 1 to test 6.
I would agree with the questioning of the class resource. And that it is a valid question even at level 15 since as far as we know this will be a persistent resource regardless of level. I personally don't mind having the extra mana pool but I would see where some might find this boring. I was also in need of the mana given my build. I like your feedback about having a toggle if it stays as is. I would definitely rather chose when to burn through the 10% extra healing resource. I also did not like that the class resource use had to be chosen as a skill, using up valuable skill points. I would rather this be a stand alone.
I agree about the oh shit moments. There does seem to be some sort of lack there. Rather than spending our resource to insta cast I would rather use it all for a group AoE heal for these moments.
I should point out that I intentionally went with an AoE heals / damage build with armor and a shield so that I could play on the front lines as a battle priest. This tradeoff of armor specifically left me with a smaller mana pool at baseline so I did enjoy the extra resource. Mana is however a really hard thing to gauge until we see the bard.
As for mobility that really depends on the way you play the build. There is some movement in builds that want to be in the backline and cast heals but it is admittedly slow. For me I had no problems with movement during combat. But I built the character specifically for that.
The main thing I would like to see given my build choice is more melee skill options for clerics. Maybe that comes with secondary choices but I would like to see it as in the primary skill trees as well.
Ideally the Cleric is attacking during downtime and not charging resource just because bored. Also, there are and will be builds that aren't healing-focused.
Intrepid could do certain Builder and Spender abilities, but that feels a lot like what the Fighter already has. The Fighter also gets to swap between passives and Exert is far more class-defining than built-in mana potion. To be clear, I don't want them to copy Fighter. I'm just pointing out what the expectation should be based on what appears to be the most complete class so far.
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LennoxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 5
@Xeeg I do think that's an interesting idea but I worry about how efficient it would be and how much of a chore it would it be. If it was changed to something like this I would want it's spenders to be pretty powerful to compensate. Instead of a manual charge or a purely automatic charge what if you met in the middle and charge came from overhealing? This would passively charge you as you inevitably overhealed people but you could also purposely overheal people during down time to get extra charge. Definitely something interesting to think about and not something I think I've seen in any other game.
@Summpwner I don't I'm really comparing it to a max level healer. If we want to use wow holy priest as an example then right now at level 15 you have a lot of spells naturally just from being 15. These include several heals, 3 dps abilities, some small utility spells. The you also get the stuff from the few talent point you have at lvl 15. You could easily have all of your holy word spells and thing like feathers and leap of faith along with a few passives that upgrade spells. The class fantasy of holy priest is already taking a very strong foundation by such a low level and the current max level in wow is higher than aoc max level. I get the point you are trying to make but I think it is a faulty argument.
I don't think you should need to be incredibly deep into a class to start to have a feel for how it's going to work. Obviously there is a ton of room to grow since we are only level 15, but that doesn't mean it should be boring just because it's low level. And like I've pointed out several times, this isn't inherently a problem of lack of spells, it's that the class resource, divine power, is flawed. Since divine power is kind of the cornerstone of the class you want to make sure it's the best part of the class. The list of spells I gave was in direct reference to making better use of divine power.
@Xeeg I do think that's an interesting idea but I worry about how efficient it would be and how much of a chore it would it be. If it was changed to something like this I would want it's spenders to be pretty powerful to compensate. Instead of a manual charge or a purely automatic charge what if you met in the middle and charge came from overhealing? This would passively charge you as you inevitably overhealed people but you could also purposely overheal people during down time to get extra charge. Definitely something interesting to think about and not something I think I've seen in any other game.
Hmmm.. That's a cool idea too! A little less punishing decision-wise, but there are still some gameplay situations where you may choose to overheal a full person (to get more divine power) rather than partially heal a person, who you know already has hots on them or defensive CDs up or something.
For sure if you had to "eat" your heals in order to charge the divine power the effect would have to be stronger to compensate for the tradeoff, especially in the middle of a battle. Numbers can be tweaked. The important part of this idea is that there is a decision to make that requires game sense.
It is not too late in the game to give class and skill feedback. A great example is the tank wall. That was changed significantly from test 1 to test 6.
I mean WOW updated their classes constantly over the course of 20+ years so I don't know why people think Ashes is going to lock in their design during the Alpha and never consider budging.
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LennoxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
All of the classes are in arguably their most malleable state right now. So this is the time to start giving hard feedback. I know other testers haven't played yet and more feedback will come with time, but we need to get on top of problems quickly or they may get stuck in a more solid state.
@Lennox Would the presence of mana granted by other classes, food buffs, stat choices, skew your feeling about the viability of the instant-cast usage? It seems like a part of the picture is missing from the testing.
I kind of do think that lower levels of MMOs should be boring for veteran players. The lower levels are where new players to AOC and to the MMO genre as a whole will be first encountering fundamental game concepts. I don't think that ~20 hours into the game should be "ok now you need to juggle buffs with unique timers and use a variety of situational skills correctly and also manage a secondary resource optimally, otherwise your party all dies and blames you." All of this is assuming that its still a relatively new player, and my opinion would be more nuanced if its more like ~50 hours.
A solid 8. It always interests me to read the perspective of someone that's already experienced what I'm interested in anyway, and they made some insightful points. As somebody that also regularly plays a Healer, I could empathise with the intent of the post.
You had more Oversight than me then. Good for you.
I enjoyed this monthly Presentation as much as i can, but damn it still makes Hunger for more. x'D
Comments
For example, you cast a long heal, and then cancel the cast by pressing the divine power which eats the spell and gains divine power based on how strong the heal was going to be.
Creates a decision: Can I get away with charging up the divine power right now?
Could be a tough call in the middle of a battle. Requires game sense.
Healers notoriously have blank space downtime at the beginning of battles and throughout fights anyways, gives them something to fill the space with if they aren't attacking or healing.
There will certainly be Augments, from a variety of sources, that will allow players to apply DoTs.
I would agree with the questioning of the class resource. And that it is a valid question even at level 15 since as far as we know this will be a persistent resource regardless of level. I personally don't mind having the extra mana pool but I would see where some might find this boring. I was also in need of the mana given my build. I like your feedback about having a toggle if it stays as is. I would definitely rather chose when to burn through the 10% extra healing resource. I also did not like that the class resource use had to be chosen as a skill, using up valuable skill points. I would rather this be a stand alone.
I agree about the oh shit moments. There does seem to be some sort of lack there. Rather than spending our resource to insta cast I would rather use it all for a group AoE heal for these moments.
I should point out that I intentionally went with an AoE heals / damage build with armor and a shield so that I could play on the front lines as a battle priest. This tradeoff of armor specifically left me with a smaller mana pool at baseline so I did enjoy the extra resource. Mana is however a really hard thing to gauge until we see the bard.
As for mobility that really depends on the way you play the build. There is some movement in builds that want to be in the backline and cast heals but it is admittedly slow. For me I had no problems with movement during combat. But I built the character specifically for that.
The main thing I would like to see given my build choice is more melee skill options for clerics. Maybe that comes with secondary choices but I would like to see it as in the primary skill trees as well.
Intrepid could do certain Builder and Spender abilities, but that feels a lot like what the Fighter already has. The Fighter also gets to swap between passives and Exert is far more class-defining than built-in mana potion. To be clear, I don't want them to copy Fighter. I'm just pointing out what the expectation should be based on what appears to be the most complete class so far.
@Summpwner I don't I'm really comparing it to a max level healer. If we want to use wow holy priest as an example then right now at level 15 you have a lot of spells naturally just from being 15. These include several heals, 3 dps abilities, some small utility spells. The you also get the stuff from the few talent point you have at lvl 15. You could easily have all of your holy word spells and thing like feathers and leap of faith along with a few passives that upgrade spells. The class fantasy of holy priest is already taking a very strong foundation by such a low level and the current max level in wow is higher than aoc max level. I get the point you are trying to make but I think it is a faulty argument.
I don't think you should need to be incredibly deep into a class to start to have a feel for how it's going to work. Obviously there is a ton of room to grow since we are only level 15, but that doesn't mean it should be boring just because it's low level. And like I've pointed out several times, this isn't inherently a problem of lack of spells, it's that the class resource, divine power, is flawed. Since divine power is kind of the cornerstone of the class you want to make sure it's the best part of the class. The list of spells I gave was in direct reference to making better use of divine power.
Hmmm.. That's a cool idea too! A little less punishing decision-wise, but there are still some gameplay situations where you may choose to overheal a full person (to get more divine power) rather than partially heal a person, who you know already has hots on them or defensive CDs up or something.
For sure if you had to "eat" your heals in order to charge the divine power the effect would have to be stronger to compensate for the tradeoff, especially in the middle of a battle. Numbers can be tweaked. The important part of this idea is that there is a decision to make that requires game sense.
I mean WOW updated their classes constantly over the course of 20+ years so I don't know why people think Ashes is going to lock in their design during the Alpha and never consider budging.
I think you have to also incorporate something for non-healing Clerics (maybe not if there are enough hybrid abilities like Consecrating Wave).
I kind of do think that lower levels of MMOs should be boring for veteran players. The lower levels are where new players to AOC and to the MMO genre as a whole will be first encountering fundamental game concepts. I don't think that ~20 hours into the game should be "ok now you need to juggle buffs with unique timers and use a variety of situational skills correctly and also manage a secondary resource optimally, otherwise your party all dies and blames you." All of this is assuming that its still a relatively new player, and my opinion would be more nuanced if its more like ~50 hours.
You had more Oversight than me then. Good for you.
I enjoyed this monthly Presentation as much as i can, but damn it still makes Hunger for more. x'D