Like I said on the other thread. Stealth is okay.
Permastealth just doesn't work in a game with a focus on open world pvp. Rogues tend to either get nerfed into oblivion for any other content, or they just become the class for open world pvp.
Stop writing in this thread. This thread should fall into the abyss
Hey man, I am trying to save the Rogue here instead of it being just another stealth monkey! If it needs saving at all. We don't know Intrepid's design yet of course.
You're definitely right about Rogues. Stealth should be one of their many tools available, not their defining ability. A lot of MMOs make the mistake of it being their entire identity and being worthless without it. This typically leads to them having niche roles in PvP like ambushing players solo or in small groups with other Rogues off point or on side objectives and performing poorly in larger fights. I''d like to see Rogues identity based around mobility/gap closers, deception, and evasiveness in addition to stealth. Stealth should not be a Rogues default status either, it should be a tool used with the right timing to give a brief window to engage, disengage, or reposition on the enemy.
I played an mmo where rogues had like a 2 second cast on self stealth that lasted 1 minute, and could be recast with no cd but obviously you are stuck out of stealth for 2 seconds when it runs out. Than they had a 5 minute cd skill where allies within 20 yards of you could be stealthed for 15 seconds on a 5 second cast.
So like in the caravan demo where they are sitting on the ridge, they could party stealth than surprise attack the caravan.
Not saying this fits this game but it was an interesting way to manage rogue stealth I though.
Also in that game rogues were one of the main curing classes, could remove debuffs from themselves and from allies, again with a semi long cast of 2 seconds so you couldn't spam it. And if you did you are doing no damage. Any ability cast brought you out of stealth as normal.
They way combat worked in that game you could also spam ability attacks to maximize damage, or choose specific rotations vs other classes, each distinct, that would do about half the damage bit would interrupt casts from the other classes or hamstring warriors for example.
Pvp rogues almost always prioritized the combos unless against glass cannon builds.
Everytime the Stealth of a Rogue fails nearby the Guards when the Rogue is up to some criminal and/or hostile Stuff - the Guards only being like ... ... ...
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Since the ranger already have the camo, having rangers have plain better stealth while rogues excell at finding hidden doors would just feel like some odd form of class fantasy switch.
I am not necessarily against "true" stealth for rogues, but I agree that it should either be time limited, or, move at a *very* slow phase while also being revealed if enemies get too close (think vanilla WoW)... Otherwise I feel like rogues will just be the obvious choice for any PvEr in order to just avoid any and all PvP combat, as well as being able to smuggle any materials anywhere without any sort of risk as long as the player is willing to spend some extra time traveling in stealth.
Since the ranger already have the camo, having rangers have plain better stealth while rogues excell at finding hidden doors would just feel like some odd form of class fantasy switch.
Hm…Would it be better to frame this discussion, not as rogue are ‘less about stealth’ but ‘rogues are more than just stealth?’ 🤔
Since the ranger already have the camo, having rangers have plain better stealth while rogues excell at finding hidden doors would just feel like some odd form of class fantasy switch.
Hm…Would it be better to frame this discussion, not as rogue are ‘less about stealth’ but ‘rogues are more than just stealth?’ 🤔
Sure, that's another way to put it. I think framing it that way makes an even stronger supposition that rogues are always about stealth, which I believe is incorrect. A rogue's defining characteristic is not necessarily stealth, and it doesn't have to be included as a given for the class.
I understand your point though, and it might be more fun to discuss it that way for people who really just want perma-invisibility
I personally like true stealth on a rogue. A rogue that is lacking in stealth capabilities doesn't live up to the fantasy for me. I believe most people think of stealth/invisibility when they think of a rogue. Shimmer stealth is a bad idea imo. It would be too close to the ranger and over time, anyone who plays the game long enough will have no issues locating the rogue. I believe a good way of balancing the rogue is simply by giving some classes ways to reveal stealth like very wide aoe like caltrops, mage light, and evil hunter. These were all in eso and I found it to be good for dealing with rogues. If you reduce the ability for a rogue to successfully engage from stealth then what's the point of playing one? I think they fill a certain class fantasy and that's ok. If they give you too much trouble then counter build.
Since the ranger already have the camo, having rangers have plain better stealth while rogues excell at finding hidden doors would just feel like some odd form of class fantasy switch.
I am not necessarily against "true" stealth for rogues, but I agree that it should either be time limited, or, move at a *very* slow phase while also being revealed if enemies get too close (think vanilla WoW)... Otherwise I feel like rogues will just be the obvious choice for any PvEr in order to just avoid any and all PvP combat, as well as being able to smuggle any materials anywhere without any sort of risk as long as the player is willing to spend some extra time traveling in stealth.
Players made Fun of this Scenario during WoW Vanilla and even before WoW Vanilla was relased. I still remember this Stuff over Twenty Years later.
Both Rogues ask themselves where the Enemy now actually is,
and both don't notice how they walk/sneak right besides each other while both being in Stealth ... ...
A " Story in the Hinterlands " or something like that, was the tiny Scenario named.
It was funny because no One in the whole Forum doubted such a Story as legit. Because back then same as today, some Players are such goddamn cowards fearing to get killed even "ONCE" by someone from an Enemy Faction, it's ridiculous.
Zero Percent Skill plus Hundred Percent Ego you get People who think they are to good to be killed by Enemy Players.
I am positive it will not be as bad in Ashes compared to how bad it was in WoW however,
because this Time not all Wusses and Sissies with an Ego higher than Blackrock Mountain will be in the same Faction. This time People of all Races can be in the same Node, meaning no "Alliance" for all those "Prince Charmings" to look fabulous while being entirely steamrolled on a Battleground from a Group of Hordlers who look like living Corpses or Gorilla's after a Car Accident. . .
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
This time People of all Races can be in the same Node, meaning no "Alliance" for all those "Prince Charmings" to look fabulous while being entirely steamrolled on a Battleground from a Group of Hordlers who look like living Corpses or Gorilla's after a Car Accident. . .
Truuuuuuuue, truuuue!
People play Alliance to be beautiful and get slapped in PvP for all eternity.
People play Horde to crack mirrors just by passing by and be the god of PvP.
I dont see any issue with rogues being designed around stealth. It is the mainstay of the class. Typically it comes down to armor and abilities to balance. Rogues dont usually have an avenue to build plate physical armor and the don't have the magic capacity to defend with magic. They dont have pets to help. the gap is bridged with stealth.
imo through periods of wow the rogue was the most fun class to play. They were very powerful in the right hands but were never THE strongest class in pvp. there were always hard counters.
I plan to play a rouge but I definitely would not if it is watered down to appease people that don't want to deal with the stealth mechanic.
I plan to play a rouge but I definitely would not if it is watered down to appease people that don't want to deal with the stealth mechanic.
Speaking for myself of course, it has nothing to do with not wanting to deal with stealth, it's about making a Rogue I want to play in group settings, where I am not just a replaceable DPS monkey that doesn't even get to use stealth much anyway. I want it to be a fully fledged archetype on it's own without much reliance on stealth, but instead leaning into the actual full meaning of the word Rogue. But, if Rogue stands on it's own merits in group play without having to use much stealth, then also giving it perma-invis will make the class overpowered obviously. And there is the whole issue of them circumventing the risk in the risk vs. reward part of moving materials of course, but that is really not the focus of my post.
I get it, you like WoW Rogue perma-invis, and that is your class fantasy. I just hope we get much more expansive Rogue class fantasy options, that aren't so narrowly stealth-focused.
it's about making a Rogue I want to play in group settings, where I am not just a replaceable DPS monkey that doesn't even get to use stealth much anyway.
Gold Comment here.
Maybe "PvP" is not a good Example for me to mention here -> but since "Whorelords of Draenor" in a notorious MMO known as Worst of Warcraft, dropped quite a Number of Years ago ( yes i am using Nicknames like these ),
one must be an ABSOLUTE Psycho as a Rogue, to be able to use Stealth in about 50% of the whole Battle or above. You get permanently exposed by anything and everything.
The only Way to prevent that is to use the Skills and Skilltree with the most repetitive Abilities and Mechanics to slip back into Stealth again for even a Split-Moment,
PLUS combine exactly that with PvP-Items that also let the Player who uses them, slip into Stealth.
As i am not a young Asian Elite Player around Twenty Years - and not an. A.I. Programm or someone who uses +4 PvP-Addons and Macros,
i must admit that for Example the Worst of Warcraft-Rogue is just not for me. Not anymore. It was different Years ago, but now it is just an annoying Stress Festival. A v~EEERY annoying Stress Festival.
Any Mechanics that make the Rogue "more stealthy" and less just a DPS Monkey like Nerror mentioned it, would be very, very welcome.
I mean okay, there is an "Assassin"-Specc planned - but there should be at least one (Sub)Class of Rogue present which is more about Stealth than any other Specc and Subclass.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
I think a good option for rogue pve options would be something that would expose an enemies weak point. I.e have an attack that"wounds" The enemy and now they take maybe more damage if you or an ally shoots them from behind. Or maybe you wound there leg and it enables your allies to slow the enemy if it takes enough damage from the side. Just a rushed thought.
There are so many ways to implement stealth, we're just going to have to see.
A bad implementation was the DAoC assassin classes (nightshade, etc). Ridiculously OP in their opener from stealth, unique in that they could climb fortification walls to murder casters, and terrible at most other things. Shunned from everything other than stealth groups.
A very different take is ESO. Everyone can "stealth", and become fully undetectable at long range. However, unless you build for it, you'll be detected at long ranged weapon range and be very slow. But it was still nice for dodging zergs, even if it didn't affect combat. This was similar to laying down in a bush in NW
I think that a no-stealth rogue (using camo, CC and "tricks" to differentiate it from a DW fighter) is going to far in the other direction. At some level stealth is good for the game. My preference would be to have "poor man's" stealth available to several classes via augments. Requiring spec points to make it worthwhile
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Since the ranger already have the camo, having rangers have plain better stealth while rogues excell at finding hidden doors would just feel like some odd form of class fantasy switch.
Why not both?
Find Hidden Doors is already in the design for Rogue Utility Skills.
I plan to play a rouge but I definitely would not if it is watered down to appease people that don't want to deal with the stealth mechanic.
IDK. be it league, WoW or any other game, who ever strikes first can dictate the flow of the fight to a degree. The effort it takes to prevent a stealth attack is so so so much bigger than pressing a stealth button, run around for 60s until you decide to finally engage. Every other class without stealth doesnt have the luxury and has to "deal with the mechanic" to be visible and plan ahead.
Saying anything but perma-stealth is "people not wanting to deal with it" is the same as wanting to have it so you dont deal with being visible and actually play the game.
There should be a mix if ever. Lets say perma stealth but after entering a certain range of an enemy player it turns into a shimmer? You can still dictate when you want to engage but at a certain range you need to make your decision quickly or be detected otherwise.
And no, dont make the shimmer start where the range of a gapcloser starts lol.
There are so many ways to implement stealth, we're just going to have to see.
A bad implementation was the DAoC assassin classes (nightshade, etc). Ridiculously OP in their opener from stealth, unique in that they could climb fortification walls to murder casters, and terrible at most other things. Shunned from everything other than stealth groups.
A very different take is ESO. Everyone can "stealth", and become fully undetectable at long range. However, unless you build for it, you'll be detected at long ranged weapon range and be very slow. But it was still nice for dodging zergs, even if it didn't affect combat. This was similar to laying down in a bush in NW
I think that a no-stealth rogue (using camo, CC and "tricks" to differentiate it from a DW fighter) is going to far in the other direction. At some level stealth is good for the game. My preference would be to have "poor man's" stealth available to several classes via augments. Requiring spec points to make it worthwhile
Love it or hate it, stealth is a core mechanic found in open world MMOs. Make it widely available but if you want it to be a core component of your play, you have to make a tradeoff for it. Likewise make counters at various strengths easy to get and use.
imo through periods of wow the rogue was the most fun class to play. They were very powerful in the right hands but were never THE strongest class in pvp. there were always hard counters.
Not sure what game you played but rogue is always top for pvp. Every arena season since the start of the game except for 1 I think had rogue teams all over the top charts and always rogue teams in competition. Mage priest rogue was top tier for over 10 years lol. Than hunter rogue priest for the next 5. Mpr and thug cleave never dies out and remain top tier. In WOW rogue and mage were always in the top 3 pvp classes (usually spot 1 and 2)
I've always loved when the concept when stealth classes are capable of offering stealth to other classes, such as group invisibility or other forms of stealth like smoke bombs, revving up the capability on the battlefield, especially in PVP.
I've always loved when the concept when stealth classes are capable of offering stealth to other classes, such as group invisibility or other forms of stealth like smoke bombs, revving up the capability on the battlefield, especially in PVP.
I like how in Worst of Warcraft,
the Rogue could always throw that "Smoke-Bomb" into the Ground lika a Ninja - causing some Fog that obscures Vision for everyone around it,
and even that "Mass-Stealth/Fog" for awhile is a really cool Mechanic. I admit openly i liked that Mechanic in WoW by a LOT.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
I don't mind perma stealth when not in combat, but once they knocked out of stealth they shouldn't be able to stealth again for like a minute. When you are close to a player the stealth should go on a timer that will run out if you take too long.
Thief classes before WoW were about a lot more than just stealth. They'd sometimes be the only way to access certain content with their lockpicking abilities or the ability to pickpocket keys. Their direct combat was better.
Stealth in combat is the problem with stealth. It's usually dumb and doesn't have enough counterplay to be remotely fair or the counterplay is too powerful and stealth doesn't exist because of it.
If you are revealed it should mean instant death. However, with this combat balancing that's unlikely to happen. So the only balanced way to implement stealth is by having a long cooldown whenever you are out of stealth. So you are forced to engage powerfully once and then do the rest of a battle out of stealth.
As someone who has done class design specifically for rogues... The entire rogue player community with maybe a few exceptions will want to draw and quarter anyone who takes away the stealth mechanic for the class.
That being said, you dont need to remove stealth, you just need to balance it so some classes counter it while others are susceptible to it. No need to take away a core defining mmorpg class trait.
Agree. My baseline for rogues is 2nd Edition AD&D - Thief’s Handbook. There are a number of kits (aka specs) that are non-stealth versions of approaching combat. One, the Thug, has a more a fighter feel than a rogue feel, but a broader spectrum of dirty tricks to gain advantages in a fight.
My hope is that Ashes has more options for rogue-minded players to solve problems beyond invis stabby stabby.
That said, I’m 100% in favor of perma stealth for rogues, as long as it’s an investment and a choice, instead of a gimme.
This could be a perfect way the archetypes could affect rogues. I would say rogue/rogue and rogue/ranger would be stealth focused while others could go along that thug class.
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more extreme the outcomes can be for the rogue: it will either be a fun, sophisticated class, or it will be a dull, cardboard shadow of WoW rogues.
Comments
Permastealth just doesn't work in a game with a focus on open world pvp. Rogues tend to either get nerfed into oblivion for any other content, or they just become the class for open world pvp.
Hey man, I am trying to save the Rogue here instead of it being just another stealth monkey!
So like in the caravan demo where they are sitting on the ridge, they could party stealth than surprise attack the caravan.
Not saying this fits this game but it was an interesting way to manage rogue stealth I though.
Also in that game rogues were one of the main curing classes, could remove debuffs from themselves and from allies, again with a semi long cast of 2 seconds so you couldn't spam it. And if you did you are doing no damage. Any ability cast brought you out of stealth as normal.
They way combat worked in that game you could also spam ability attacks to maximize damage, or choose specific rotations vs other classes, each distinct, that would do about half the damage bit would interrupt casts from the other classes or hamstring warriors for example.
Pvp rogues almost always prioritized the combos unless against glass cannon builds.
Everytime the Stealth of a Rogue fails nearby the Guards when the Rogue is up to some criminal and/or hostile Stuff - the Guards only being like ... ... ...
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
I am not necessarily against "true" stealth for rogues, but I agree that it should either be time limited, or, move at a *very* slow phase while also being revealed if enemies get too close (think vanilla WoW)... Otherwise I feel like rogues will just be the obvious choice for any PvEr in order to just avoid any and all PvP combat, as well as being able to smuggle any materials anywhere without any sort of risk as long as the player is willing to spend some extra time traveling in stealth.
Hm…Would it be better to frame this discussion, not as rogue are ‘less about stealth’ but ‘rogues are more than just stealth?’ 🤔
Sure, that's another way to put it. I think framing it that way makes an even stronger supposition that rogues are always about stealth, which I believe is incorrect. A rogue's defining characteristic is not necessarily stealth, and it doesn't have to be included as a given for the class.
I understand your point though, and it might be more fun to discuss it that way for people who really just want perma-invisibility
Players made Fun of this Scenario during WoW Vanilla and even before WoW Vanilla was relased. I still remember this Stuff over Twenty Years later.
Both Rogues ask themselves where the Enemy now actually is,
and both don't notice how they walk/sneak right besides each other while both being in Stealth ... ...
A " Story in the Hinterlands " or something like that, was the tiny Scenario named.
It was funny because no One in the whole Forum doubted such a Story as legit. Because back then same as today, some Players are such goddamn cowards fearing to get killed even "ONCE" by someone from an Enemy Faction, it's ridiculous.
Zero Percent Skill plus Hundred Percent Ego
I am positive it will not be as bad in Ashes compared to how bad it was in WoW however,
because this Time not all Wusses and Sissies with an Ego higher than Blackrock Mountain will be in the same Faction. This time People of all Races can be in the same Node, meaning no "Alliance" for all those "Prince Charmings" to look fabulous while being entirely steamrolled on a Battleground from a Group of Hordlers who look like living Corpses or Gorilla's after a Car Accident.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Truuuuuuuue, truuuue!
People play Alliance to be beautiful and get slapped in PvP for all eternity.
People play Horde to crack mirrors just by passing by and be the god of PvP.
imo through periods of wow the rogue was the most fun class to play. They were very powerful in the right hands but were never THE strongest class in pvp. there were always hard counters.
I plan to play a rouge but I definitely would not if it is watered down to appease people that don't want to deal with the stealth mechanic.
Speaking for myself of course, it has nothing to do with not wanting to deal with stealth, it's about making a Rogue I want to play in group settings, where I am not just a replaceable DPS monkey that doesn't even get to use stealth much anyway. I want it to be a fully fledged archetype on it's own without much reliance on stealth, but instead leaning into the actual full meaning of the word Rogue. But, if Rogue stands on it's own merits in group play without having to use much stealth, then also giving it perma-invis will make the class overpowered obviously. And there is the whole issue of them circumventing the risk in the risk vs. reward part of moving materials of course, but that is really not the focus of my post.
I get it, you like WoW Rogue perma-invis, and that is your class fantasy. I just hope we get much more expansive Rogue class fantasy options, that aren't so narrowly stealth-focused.
Gold Comment here.
Maybe "PvP" is not a good Example for me to mention here -> but since "Whorelords of Draenor" in a notorious MMO known as Worst of Warcraft, dropped quite a Number of Years ago
( yes i am using Nicknames like these ),
one must be an ABSOLUTE Psycho as a Rogue, to be able to use Stealth in about 50% of the whole Battle or above. You get permanently exposed by anything and everything.
The only Way to prevent that is to use the Skills and Skilltree with the most repetitive Abilities and Mechanics to slip back into Stealth again for even a Split-Moment,
PLUS combine exactly that with PvP-Items that also let the Player who uses them, slip into Stealth.
As i am not a young Asian Elite Player around Twenty Years - and not an. A.I. Programm or someone who uses +4 PvP-Addons and Macros,
i must admit that for Example the Worst of Warcraft-Rogue is just not for me. Not anymore. It was different Years ago, but now it is just an annoying Stress Festival. A v~EEERY annoying Stress Festival.
Any Mechanics that make the Rogue "more stealthy" and less just a DPS Monkey like Nerror mentioned it, would be very, very welcome.
I mean okay, there is an "Assassin"-Specc planned - but there should be at least one (Sub)Class of Rogue present which is more about Stealth than any other Specc and Subclass.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
A bad implementation was the DAoC assassin classes (nightshade, etc). Ridiculously OP in their opener from stealth, unique in that they could climb fortification walls to murder casters, and terrible at most other things. Shunned from everything other than stealth groups.
A very different take is ESO. Everyone can "stealth", and become fully undetectable at long range. However, unless you build for it, you'll be detected at long ranged weapon range and be very slow. But it was still nice for dodging zergs, even if it didn't affect combat. This was similar to laying down in a bush in NW
I think that a no-stealth rogue (using camo, CC and "tricks" to differentiate it from a DW fighter) is going to far in the other direction. At some level stealth is good for the game. My preference would be to have "poor man's" stealth available to several classes via augments. Requiring spec points to make it worthwhile
Find Hidden Doors is already in the design for Rogue Utility Skills.
IDK. be it league, WoW or any other game, who ever strikes first can dictate the flow of the fight to a degree. The effort it takes to prevent a stealth attack is so so so much bigger than pressing a stealth button, run around for 60s until you decide to finally engage. Every other class without stealth doesnt have the luxury and has to "deal with the mechanic" to be visible and plan ahead.
Saying anything but perma-stealth is "people not wanting to deal with it" is the same as wanting to have it so you dont deal with being visible and actually play the game.
There should be a mix if ever. Lets say perma stealth but after entering a certain range of an enemy player it turns into a shimmer? You can still dictate when you want to engage but at a certain range you need to make your decision quickly or be detected otherwise.
And no, dont make the shimmer start where the range of a gapcloser starts lol.
Edit: Stylizing, missquoted
Love it or hate it, stealth is a core mechanic found in open world MMOs. Make it widely available but if you want it to be a core component of your play, you have to make a tradeoff for it. Likewise make counters at various strengths easy to get and use.
Not sure what game you played but rogue is always top for pvp. Every arena season since the start of the game except for 1 I think had rogue teams all over the top charts and always rogue teams in competition. Mage priest rogue was top tier for over 10 years lol. Than hunter rogue priest for the next 5. Mpr and thug cleave never dies out and remain top tier. In WOW rogue and mage were always in the top 3 pvp classes (usually spot 1 and 2)
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I like how in Worst of Warcraft,
the Rogue could always throw that "Smoke-Bomb" into the Ground lika a Ninja - causing some Fog that obscures Vision for everyone around it,
and even that "Mass-Stealth/Fog" for awhile is a really cool Mechanic. I admit openly i liked that Mechanic in WoW by a LOT.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Thief classes before WoW were about a lot more than just stealth. They'd sometimes be the only way to access certain content with their lockpicking abilities or the ability to pickpocket keys. Their direct combat was better.
Stealth in combat is the problem with stealth. It's usually dumb and doesn't have enough counterplay to be remotely fair or the counterplay is too powerful and stealth doesn't exist because of it.
If you are revealed it should mean instant death. However, with this combat balancing that's unlikely to happen. So the only balanced way to implement stealth is by having a long cooldown whenever you are out of stealth. So you are forced to engage powerfully once and then do the rest of a battle out of stealth.
U.S. East
That being said, you dont need to remove stealth, you just need to balance it so some classes counter it while others are susceptible to it. No need to take away a core defining mmorpg class trait.
This could be a perfect way the archetypes could affect rogues. I would say rogue/rogue and rogue/ranger would be stealth focused while others could go along that thug class.