Do Arena players get a safe area to fight other arena players without outside interruption? Yes?
Do siege players get a safe area to do sieges against other players without outside interruption by others? Yes??
Do PvErs/dungeon-divers get a safe area to do dungeon crawls without outside interruption? No?
Do Raiders? No?
Do farmers? Mostly no? With some very limited freehold plots, but are those open to being attacked if standing outside?
Do explorers/achievers? No?
>>That's a PvP centric design.
Just call it what it is.
I'm good with it as it stands.
Though the ugly "lie" seems to be pushed for sales.
What lie?
They've been open with all of this. That's how you know all of this. They told you.
As for seiges, it actually says castle seiges will be open world dependent on testing. Node v node is open world, ocean is open world, guild wars are open world.
About 20 percent of game content (pve and pvp both) will not be open world. 80 percent will. It all looks good to me.
Do Arena players get a safe area to fight other arena players without outside interruption? Yes?
Do siege players get a safe area to do sieges against other players without outside interruption by others? Yes??
Do PvErs/dungeon-divers get a safe area to do dungeon crawls without outside interruption? No?
Do Raiders? No?
Do farmers? Mostly no? With some very limited freehold plots, but are those open to being attacked if standing outside?
Do explorers/achievers? No?
>>That's a PvP centric design.
Just call it what it is.
I'm good with it as it stands.
Though the ugly "lie" seems to be pushed for sales.
you forgot something important, progression. we don't know what we get from arenas, but a siege doesn't give me gear progression, I'm not guaranteed to win or even participate. id need to do open world stuff to get the gear to participate in the siege. there is a difference. they also happen once a month?
raid progression means you start at the easiest raid, then you clear it and get gear, then jump to something stronger, rinse and repeat. it eliminates having to be outside in the world getting gear.
if a pvper wants gear, he has to be outside and compete against people to get the gear.
I think most PVP focused players cannot understand this.
Yep, because in pretty much every damn mmo we've been made to pve, if we wanted to pvp, so it's always wild when pvers keep shitting their pants at the slightest possibility of pvp in the gameplay.
An MMORPG where players can PvP without needing to PvE would by necessity be a token based economy.
You simply couldn't have this game in a manner where it was viable for people to PvP and progress, but where it was also viable for people to PvE to progress. The only way to make it work would be to get tokens from PvP kills to turn in for what ever form of progress.
As a complaint, this is along side "but I Want to experience raid content without needing other people" in regards to not being fully thought out.
Do Arena players get a safe area to fight other arena players without outside interruption? Yes?
Do siege players get a safe area to do sieges against other players without outside interruption by others? Yes??
Do PvErs/dungeon-divers get a safe area to do dungeon crawls without outside interruption? No?
Do Raiders? No?
Do farmers? Mostly no? With some very limited freehold plots, but are those open to being attacked if standing outside?
Do explorers/achievers? No?
>>That's a PvP centric design.
Just call it what it is.
I'm good with it as it stands.
Though the ugly "lie" seems to be pushed for sales.
What lie?
They've been open with all of this. That's how you know all of this. They told you.
As for seiges, it actually says castle seiges will be open world dependent on testing. Node v node is open world, ocean is open world, guild wars are open world.
About 20 percent of game content (pve and pvp both) will not be open world. 80 percent will. It all looks good to me.
Its PvP centric with some elements of X, E and Craft. Using the term they do is for a monetary subterfuge reason. Which I'm okay with them doing it -- but I'll still call balls and strikes appropriately.
Do Arena players get a safe area to fight other arena players without outside interruption? Yes?
Do siege players get a safe area to do sieges against other players without outside interruption by others? Yes??
Do PvErs/dungeon-divers get a safe area to do dungeon crawls without outside interruption? No?
Do Raiders? No?
Do farmers? Mostly no? With some very limited freehold plots, but are those open to being attacked if standing outside?
Do explorers/achievers? No?
>>That's a PvP centric design.
Just call it what it is.
I'm good with it as it stands.
Though the ugly "lie" seems to be pushed for sales.
you forgot something important, progression. we don't know what we get from arenas, but a siege doesn't give me gear progression, I'm not guaranteed to win or even participate. id need to do open world stuff to get the gear to participate in the siege. there is a difference. they also happen once a month?
raid progression means you start at the easiest raid, then you clear it and get gear, then jump to something stronger, rinse and repeat. it eliminates having to be outside in the world getting gear.
if a pvper wants gear, he has to be outside and compete against people to get the gear.
It's kinda hard to gauge the percentages of each, given that the game isn't even out, lots of the major components haven't even been coded yet, and you don't know who you'll be playing with on your server.
And this is what my post is not agreeing with. Even if you think those games are PVP games, Ashes isn't going to be a PVP game - My argument is: it is purely a PVX even if you feel it is a PVP game. People having their misconceptions about this game and staying stuck in that mindset will continue to think its a PVP game but that is due to them not being able to see the PVX (E) that even PVPers will have to do.
I mean, if you are asking for 50% of dungeons to be instanced and you mean like actual dungeons, for me, that goes to show a clear lack of understanding of what this game is trying to be, unless you want arena-like dungeons that does not reward you with gear/materials, and is tied to a 6-month seasons system that you only get cosmetics and temporary runes out of it, because that's what pvp arenas are, and for a good reason, main content in the game is open world, due to the necessary scarcity generated by competition,
but if arena-like dungeons is what you are asking for, sure, add those post-launch in an expansion, game is already massive, and a PvE season is not part of the original scope nor its planned
Lately, I have heard an overwhelming opinion that Ashes will be catering to the PvP crowd or this is a PvP game, despite the constant reminder that this is a PvX game.
While we won't truly know if this opinion is accurate or not until we feel it in Alpha 2 there is something I want to state for those who have this view on the game.
1. I have heard the argument that PvP players can sit at the arenas all day without threat or need to participate in PvE content. For anyone striving for competition in PvP they will need to chase their BIS set of gear. In WoW arenas (talking about early TBC arenas as I am not a retail Andy) the best armor for PvP was from arenas, however, the best weapons for arena were the same BIS weapons from high end PvE raids. So while the arena trolls just wanted to PvP most of the high competitive arena boys went out into those raids and earned their DKP in order to get those weapons.
2. I've also heard there is no threat of PvE for people in the open world/open seas. For this, I would again hope for something like what we can see in Sea of Thieves (see my "Everyone's thinking it, I'm just saying it Pirates!" post for more details /smile) However, I think even our PvP Pirates out in the open seas who are only looking to raid, pillage, and plunder without any corruption might run into a kraken like can happen in Sea of Thieves, when this tentacle ______ stops your ship in the middle of no where you got to fight it. I would hope that in Ashes just as there is a risk of PvP at most turns there is a risk of PvE for everyone as well. Thus why they call their game a PvX game.
3. Which leads me to my 3rd point which is: I think is a good solution and balance for this debate. While PvP people seemingly have a protected space to "only PvP all day with no threat of PvE" and the big thing that PvE people want is a place so they can gauge their progression and weekly performance and see they are improving their game play the same as what a PvPer can do in arenas. I suggest there is about a 50% instanced raid content. A place where on a weekly lock out, something that is needing to be group completed content.
All 3 of these points leave out the entire thing that brings them all together and makes these arguments sort of mute in the first place. Even if Ashes has this content that is seemingly geared more towards PvP or PvE -- All players striving to obtain their best in slot gear won't do any of this content for it. They will have to farm the crafters-- They will need to go into the open world and fight both NPC and player to obtain their materials, they will have to move their materials via caravan (watching the caravan showcase the amount of PvE involved in a caravan run between 2 close nodes included:
Parts Purchasing
Tumok Avoidance
Wolf Clearing
Spider Clearing
Rabid Avoidance (No rabids were harmed in the making of this livestream that I noticed)
Bear Killing
Chopped Trees
Terrain Maneuvering
PvE Elite Spawn event
And Route Planning -- plus probably more that I missed
After they've obtained both materials and gold or moved materials where they are needed they will need to get into the good graces of the crafters who if they have previously murdered while said crafter was trying to gather their PvE goods, they will probably get told to pound sand. -- In short, I want this game to stop being referred to as a PvP oriented game, it is not.
We will all need to farm the crafters, and this requires a large handful of PvX.
There wont be PvP gear, so people who want to do arenas will have to go out in the open world anyway.
20% of the pve content will be INSTANCED - this means that PVE players will have place where they will be able to ONLY PVE without the risk of PVP.
I am not sure why you would call it PVP, when there is both place for only pvp and place for only pve, and most places are for PVX
My argument is: it is purely a PVX even if you feel it is a PVP game.
You have a slight misconception here.
There are no purely PvP or PvE MMORPG's on the market (we've had people on these forums claim that buying and selling on the marketplace is a form of PvP).
As such, every MMORPG is technically PvX.
Since this doesn't really help with discussion, you then have the choice. You can either leave people to have their own subjective opinion of what a PvP or PvE game is to them, or you can place games on a scale from most PvP to least PvP, and set a point somewhere near the middle of that scale where you consider everything on one side to be a PvP game.
Using either of these, Ashes would be considered a PvP game most of the time.
The argument that it is a PvX game is pointless, as WoW is a PvX game as well.
So, by any helpful definition of the term "PvP", in relation to MMORPG's, Ashes will fit within that definition.
Comments
What lie?
They've been open with all of this. That's how you know all of this. They told you.
As for seiges, it actually says castle seiges will be open world dependent on testing. Node v node is open world, ocean is open world, guild wars are open world.
About 20 percent of game content (pve and pvp both) will not be open world. 80 percent will. It all looks good to me.
you forgot something important, progression. we don't know what we get from arenas, but a siege doesn't give me gear progression, I'm not guaranteed to win or even participate. id need to do open world stuff to get the gear to participate in the siege. there is a difference. they also happen once a month?
raid progression means you start at the easiest raid, then you clear it and get gear, then jump to something stronger, rinse and repeat. it eliminates having to be outside in the world getting gear.
if a pvper wants gear, he has to be outside and compete against people to get the gear.
An MMORPG where players can PvP without needing to PvE would by necessity be a token based economy.
You simply couldn't have this game in a manner where it was viable for people to PvP and progress, but where it was also viable for people to PvE to progress. The only way to make it work would be to get tokens from PvP kills to turn in for what ever form of progress.
As a complaint, this is along side "but I Want to experience raid content without needing other people" in regards to not being fully thought out.
Its PvP centric with some elements of X, E and Craft. Using the term they do is for a monetary subterfuge reason. Which I'm okay with them doing it -- but I'll still call balls and strikes appropriately.
Changes nothing.
Let's just chill and see what happens in Alpha-2!
I mean, if you are asking for 50% of dungeons to be instanced and you mean like actual dungeons, for me, that goes to show a clear lack of understanding of what this game is trying to be, unless you want arena-like dungeons that does not reward you with gear/materials, and is tied to a 6-month seasons system that you only get cosmetics and temporary runes out of it, because that's what pvp arenas are, and for a good reason, main content in the game is open world, due to the necessary scarcity generated by competition,
but if arena-like dungeons is what you are asking for, sure, add those post-launch in an expansion, game is already massive, and a PvE season is not part of the original scope nor its planned
There wont be PvP gear, so people who want to do arenas will have to go out in the open world anyway.
20% of the pve content will be INSTANCED - this means that PVE players will have place where they will be able to ONLY PVE without the risk of PVP.
I am not sure why you would call it PVP, when there is both place for only pvp and place for only pve, and most places are for PVX
There are no purely PvP or PvE MMORPG's on the market (we've had people on these forums claim that buying and selling on the marketplace is a form of PvP).
As such, every MMORPG is technically PvX.
Since this doesn't really help with discussion, you then have the choice. You can either leave people to have their own subjective opinion of what a PvP or PvE game is to them, or you can place games on a scale from most PvP to least PvP, and set a point somewhere near the middle of that scale where you consider everything on one side to be a PvP game.
Using either of these, Ashes would be considered a PvP game most of the time.
The argument that it is a PvX game is pointless, as WoW is a PvX game as well.
So, by any helpful definition of the term "PvP", in relation to MMORPG's, Ashes will fit within that definition.