Open World Raid Boss Respawn Timers

Can there be "raid windows" instead of a pure random respawn for open world raid bosses? It makes it easier for PvE enjoyers to have a set block of time where they can plan to do some content in. Even if it is a "no spawn day" there still should be some type of sub-boss with similar mechanics as the raid boss for a smaller advance group of PvE enjoyers to participate in. Then if they stumble upon a raid boss they can alert their guild/alliance etc.

That seems like a more natural way than sending an "alt-scout" to the spawn location to keep eyes on an important objective. It also gives PvE enjoyers some decent content during breakout play.

I'm a PvP/PvX enjoyer who is worried about losing our PvE gamers because the game doesnt give them meaningful play loops. So this is one solution I brainstormed. Let's discuss.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it

Primary PvE because there might not be PvP.

That isn't a strong argument.

In your experience of PvP enabled open world MMORPG's with open world raid bosses, how often do they go uncontested?

I've seen a handful of spawns over many years, with many hundreds of contested spawns.

If that is the best argument you have at your disposal, I would drop the point all together, to be honest.

I play alot of PvP games and 80% of the world bosses fight tend to go uncontested you tend to get muiltipul attempts at bosses before a opposing group can even get enough people to contest it.

What kind of PvP games are you playing where people are waiting to have enough people to contest the boss before they work on preventing other guilds from killing it?

If I am by myself at a boss spawn and another guild is trying to kill it, I am trying to stop them.

Dimitraeos

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Dimitraeos wrote: »

I think the argument about pve vs pvp content though is that pvp can interfere with pve but not visa versa. That's a problem. As a primarily pvp motivated player myself, there's a long term issue if there isn't a way for people who enjoy pve to have meaningful content that pvp cant interfere with. They need their own loop.

Or we could have pve that can interfere with pvp. As a pvxer - I want that A LOT. I want people to have abilities that let them control mobs to a greater extent than just "I do or do not aggro a mob".

This kind of approach would also feel fairer to me, cause if my pvp interferes with someone's pve, then the only proper counterbalance is for their pve to be able to interfere with my pvp.

This would work even better if those tools increase the looting rights values, outside of direct dmg stuff. PvErs aggro a mob/boss > see a pvp fight going on nearby or get attacked themselves > use their tool-abilities to interact with the boss in a specific way (ideally with mob/boss properly reacting to the situation cause its AI is designed correctly) > the pvp/attackers get interrupted, the pvpers gotta defend themselves from the mob/boss which helps the pvers finish it off > ??? > profit.

Obviously this is super surface lvl stuff and would need to be tested extensively, but I see this as a much better pvx compromise than "let's just all have our own little corners of content where no one can touch us ".

But then that just comes back to the problem of PvE being an afterthought for players who *primarily* enjoy pve. I'd hardly consider "leashing a boss into a group of enemy players" riveting pve...It sounds more like trolling than anything else.

Not to mention, that would hardly work. PvP oriented players will just annihilate the group of PvErs anyway.

So that doesn't solve the problem, at all. I think my (and many others, primarily forwarded by Virtek from TGFT) where you could farm boss room keys better balances the PvX equation because the risk fully exists while farming and competing for mobs that drop the keys as well as getting out of the placewith your loot (if you can even beat the fight in time before the key/summon expires).

Musclez

Respawn timers should be random. It should create excitement when it spawns and you rush to gather your guildies to kill.

Ludullu

Dimitraeos wrote: »

But then that just comes back to the problem of PvE being an afterthought for players who *primarily* enjoy pve. I'd hardly consider "leashing a boss into a group of enemy players" riveting pve...It sounds more like trolling than anything else.

Not to mention, that would hardly work. PvP oriented players will just annihilate the group of PvErs anyway.

This is why I say that I want great AI and tool-abilities. It should NOT be trolly and SHOULD be riveting. That's my entire point. Not a single fucking game has managed to merge pve and pvp in a meaningful way. Steven is claiming the desire to do this, but so far we haven't seen any pve that would achieve this.

And my entire point is that pvpers shouldn't be able to just annihilate the pvers, exactly because pvers brought the mobs/boss with them.

Again, if people see pvp as "interrupting content", then why can it not be mirrored by the other side? If anyone can just come and attack you while you're doing whatever - why can't someone else use a mob to retaliate against that person?

The entire interaction would be so much deeper and complex AND it could potentially let weaker groups make an impact in a bigger pvp fight, cause they can bring a strong pve foe into it.

Dimitraeos wrote: »

So that doesn't solve the problem, at all. I think my (and many others, primarily forwarded by Virtek from TGFT) where you could farm boss room keys better balances the PvX equation because the risk fully exists while farming and competing for mobs that drop the keys as well as getting out of the placewith your loot (if you can even beat the fight in time before the key/summon expires).

I've experienced this exact system in L2. There you needed to do a certain quest (which required you to kill certain mobs) if you wanted to enter the big boss room. This would be highly contested on the mob farming side and then around the boss room, and then in the boss room (cause in L2 doors would stay open for anyone for a few minutes).

PvErs would be delusional to think that magically they'd be able to just get to that boss or even farm it. And any kind of lockout mechanic (i.e. only one summoning item can be crafted per kill of the boss; only one boss can be killed per some period of time) will simply lead back to the same issues pvers have now - pvpers won't let them do that content.

From what I've read/heard of this suggested mechanic, it's supposed to alleviate the issue of "pvpers interrupting pve", but it does not prevent pvpers locking out that pve. It will most likely do the opposite and make it easier for pvpers to do that, especially if those pvpers are in a huge guild that can track any location where these summoning items can be farmed.

Veeshan

Dimitraeos wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

I don't understand your point.

Just the fact that another group can come in and kill you, makes it not purely a PvE thing, but rather a PvX thing. Now in most cases, and this is based on my experience from other games, killing a boss isn't even the main or the most exciting thing about the whole event. It's the PvP against other group(s) itself that makes it fun and engaging.

This is kinda my point most PvE task are PvX, Most PvP tasks are PvX aswell.

Even things people see as only PVP still comes back to being PvX, Ganking greens like an ass you then have to PvE to clear corruption, Seiging/nodewars has PvE involved aswell, Caravans might not get attacked by other players but u most likly need to PvE to clear a path through mobs somewhere.

With a couple of exceptions everything in this game boils down to PvX so slapping the PvE/PvP label on things is pointless since u can flip it around and it still works.

I think the argument about pve vs pvp content though is that pvp can interfere with pve but not visa versa. That's a problem. As a primarily pvp motivated player myself, there's a long term issue if there isn't a way for people who enjoy pve to have meaningful content that pvp cant interfere with. They need their own loop.

Just a fun little tibbit here about PvE not being able to interfere with PvP it can
1- New world has the issue where unflagged player would pull mobs onto node PvP flagged people were trying to harvest to interupt there harvest and steal there node
2- Most PvP objectives has PvE quiet often pvp fights get interupted by mobs and the dmg they deal determines the fight
3- You been able to train/pull mobs onto pvp players who are engaged in fights or what not.
4- Often there NPC guards in games that will assist in seiges
5- battle grounds often have PvE elements take alteract valley in WOW had those 8 or something rider you could summon who would run down and engage the other group (wolf riders for horde for example)

Every Openworld PvP game has PvE heavily interwined with it and some instances PvP also has PvE involved in it that can/will intervene with PvP content. Most PvP in games is actually PvX, that also being said quite often alot of PvE games is indirectly PvX too since u are competing with players around you in some way or form aswell even if it isnt straight up attacking the players

Veeshan

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it

Primary PvE because there might not be PvP.

That isn't a strong argument.

In your experience of PvP enabled open world MMORPG's with open world raid bosses, how often do they go uncontested?

I've seen a handful of spawns over many years, with many hundreds of contested spawns.

If that is the best argument you have at your disposal, I would drop the point all together, to be honest.

I play alot of PvP games and 80% of the world bosses fight tend to go uncontested you tend to get muiltipul attempts at bosses before a opposing group can even get enough people to contest it.

What kind of PvP games are you playing where people are waiting to have enough people to contest the boss before they work on preventing other guilds from killing it?

If I am by myself at a boss spawn and another guild is trying to kill it, I am trying to stop them.

How often are 2 groups just happen to run across a boss at the same time doesnt realy happen unless everyone knows X boss is spawning at X time (which is a spawn mechanic i dont want for AoC, shouldnt have predictable spawns unless it part of like a world event). Alot of the time you can sneak bosses in especialy when it comes to like dungeon bosses where if anyone want to contrest it would have to be in the dungeon already or the first group would have to fail alot for enough time for another one to get to the boss room.
That being said AoC also lacks fast travel aswell compared to other MMO.

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

How often are 2 groups just happen to run across a boss at the same time doesnt realy happen unless everyone knows X boss is spawning at X time

Like it or not, every mob needs to have a spawn window of some description.

Once a few guilds know that window, there should always be someone from one of those guilds in that general area.

Again, I've never seen what you seem to be claiming is normal. In 20 years killing open world raid bosses in both PvP and PvE games, I have only ever once killed a raid encounter without others being present.

If a raid boss is even remotely hard (which I would state as a requirement to consider it as PvE content as opposed to PvP content), it literally only takes one player to stop and entire raid.

I'm wondering if we have differing ideas as to what a boss actually is.

Orgagriffith

This confusion between which content is PvP and which content is PvE is, imo, a good sign for a game designed as a PvX.

After thinking about this and reading your replies, I think the answer to my question: what does meaningful PvE content look like? has already been designed into the game. I think the element of exploration is something that has been talked about as a core design of AoC.

PvP generally happens for specific gains in power, for resources, for MMR, etc. But the meaningful PvE content happens in exploring every square inch of verra (and overcoming the challenges to do that exploration!). The PvE enjoyers exploring and finding the secrets of verra will be the ones who direct their PvPers to capitalize on that knowledge.

PvE enjoyers worry that their content is only to be cattle for PvPers to farm. After thinking about the design of AoC, I think that is a myopic take based on the history of themepark and sandbox differences. In a true "sandpark" I think it is the PvE players who hold the knowledge of verra and create the content through their discoveries.

We havent seen any updates on these PvE systems. Most of the systems we've seen in showcases are sandbox-esque. I think the PvE community wants to see a little bit more of the "park" in sandpark that was promised and are tired of hearing "the game isnt for everyone." I hope we get to see some of these PvE loops... maybe with the rouge showcase.. maybe with the scribe tradeskill.

I am a PvP enjoyer, but I think our PvE comrades need to see some promises to them fulfilled too.

Noaani

Orgagriffith wrote: »

The PvE enjoyers exploring and finding the secrets of verra will be the ones who direct their PvPers to capitalize on that knowledge.

The vast majority of PvE gamers are not "explorers". This is a very minor subset of PvE players.

In my expereince, the bulk of PvE player are more interested in problem solving - where those problems are presented in the form of PvE encounters.

A game that assumes exploration is what PvE gamers want is a game that is doomed to fail.

Orgagriffith

element of discovery, my bad. that includes exploration but im not talking merely cartography. It is the reason themepark mmos rely on "new" content. Because it gives that element of discovery.
I think that element is definitely a large chunk of what satisfies the average PvE enjoyer.

Noaani

Orgagriffith wrote: »

element of discovery, my bad. that includes exploration but im not talking merely cartography. It is the reason themepark mmos rely on "new" content. Because it gives that element of discovery.
I think that element of discovery is definitely what a large chunk of what satisfies the average PvE enjoyer.

New content isn't about discovery, it is about new problems to solve (aka, new things to kill).

There is a reason many PvE players are quite happy running the same raid or dungeon a dozen or more times - exploration isn't the driver at all.

Not even a little bit.

Exploration to the average PvE player is about as important as exploration is to the average PvP player.

Edit to add; the core, the focus of PvE content to the PvE player is the large encounter. Whether that is a solo encounter, a group encounter or a raid encounter, that is what it is about.

Quests and stories are fine, exploration is ok to have as well, but it is these encounters that make or break PvE. Without these encounters being on point, the rest is wasted.

You (a PvP player) saying to me (someone that prefers PvE over PvP) that you think exploration is what satisfies the average PvE player is about the same as me telling you that worthwhile crafting is what satisfies the average PvP player.

You are offensively incorrect in your assumption.

Orgagriffith

Maybe thats true for themeparks. But this is a game designed for players who reject the themepark model, pve and pvp alike.

Noaani

Orgagriffith wrote: »

Maybe thats true for themeparks. But this is a game designed for players who reject the themepark model, pve and pvp alike.

There is no PvE sandbox.

Sandbox games are an excuse for developers to not create content. They just create a world, put players in it and let them be each others content.

That is why Ashes is not a sandbox. It needs that content to survive. However, it also needs the sandbox elements of PvP to survive - so it is both.

Edit to add; and yes, I am waiting for you to say "but Minecraft"...

Orgagriffith

soooo are you saying instanced dungeons? bosses? what does meaningful PvE content mean to you?

Orgagriffith

Noaani wrote: »

Edit to add; and yes, I am waiting for you to say "but Minecraft"...

lol, nah, we are talking about the future of MMOS. I came for conversation, not to argue. Im coming with more questions than claims if you cant tell.

Noaani

Orgagriffith wrote: »

soooo are you saying instanced dungeons? bosses? what does meaningful PvE content mean to you?

You are talking about content types, and then asking what meaningful content means.

These are different things.

Instanced dungeons can be meaningful, but they can also be meaningless - it is about the design of the encounters. Same with open dungeons, they can be meaningful if they are good, or meaningless if they aren't.

Bosses are inherent to meaningful content - if there is no boss, there is no content. This is inherent to the notion that PvE content is about the encounter. I am not meaning about some trash mob that doesn't even deserve it's own name (there is a reason they are referred to as trash), "the encounter" is boss mobs in what ever form they take.

These are the essence of PvE.

Orgagriffith

Figuring out new encounters is part of the element of discovery im talking about though. Thats the kind of thing we haven't seen much of in updates, and it's one of the design promises of intrepid. I think if intrepid could give us an update on that progress, it would allieviate a lot of the worries that im seeing from content creators right now that there isnt going to be meaningful PvE content.

Although maybe i was wrong including that in my thoughts about the element of discovery. I did assume that solving an encounter loses value when you do it over and over. TIL something about how some people like to play.

Encounters are just one part of that loop, however. And I have a feeling intrepid is thinking about more than just "the encounter puzzle," yet we havent seen much evidence of it. I really just want to keep the hope going for my PvE comrades, that's why im invested in this topic.

Noaani

Orgagriffith wrote: »

Figuring out new encounters is part of the element of discovery im talking about though.

But coming back a dozen or more times isn't.

In order for there to be meaningful PvE, that PvE needs to exist without the possibility of PvP. If PvP exists as a possibility with PvE, then one of two things will be true;

1, the PvE will be impossible to kill, as good PvE will be made impossible with a single well placed arrow from a ranger.

2, that PvE will be dead easy to kill, as the idea is that the challenge froms from the PvP around it.

Neither of these make for meaningful PvE. You can make an argument that they make for meaningful content, but not that they make for meaningful PvE.

I did assume that solving an encounter loses value when you do it over and over.

As a comparison, look at PvE content as if it is golf.

When you have done a course, that doesn't mean that you can't do that course again, and doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. Sometimes it becomes even more enjoyable when you have worked out all the specifics of a given course.

However, if you play golf often, you still want to go to new courses any chance you get.

An actually enjoyable encounter is enjoyable after the 100th kill. While most games don't give players a reason to need to kill any encounter that many times, there are indeed a number of actually fun encounters that I have killed many hundreds of times purely because they are fun.

Who would have thought that a game could be fun...

Encounters are just one part of that loop, however.

They are the only part that matters.

Exploration means nothing if you don't find something fun - and in the context of PvE in an MMORPG, that is the encounter. Exploration of the encounter itself - sure, you can argue that. However, if the encounter isn't fun, that exploration is wasted.

Crafting means nothing if you don't need the upgrades to kill something you can't kill without them. Likewise, the loot upgrades from the previous encounter mean nothing if you don't need them for the next encounter.

Quests mean nothing if they don't lead to enjoyable content - an encounter. If story is what we want, games have yet to surpass books or movies as a storytelling medium. Story is a precursor to the encounter.

Social aspects of the game mean nothing without the encounter - we could just be on Discrod talking while playing some other game.

It is the encounter at the center, always has been.

Dimitraeos

Veeshan wrote: »

Dimitraeos wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Instanced dungeons and raids, will basically be the only pure PvE content in this game (if we get those).

Everything else is pretty much PvP.
World bosses = primarily a PvP event, whoever wins gets to kill the boss or rather you kill the boss and defend at the same time.

Open-world dungeons = PvX event, you have to clear the dungeon, but also be wary that there is possibility for PvP

Caravans = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Gathering = risk of PvP (it's not PvE)

Here ill use the same logic in reverse
World Bosses = Primary PvE event since people might not contest it
Open world Dungeons PvX event a pvp intended group might not enter so might not have any possible pvp from occuring
Caravans = Risk of no PvP occuring (So not PvP
Gather = High risk of no pvp (so not PvP)

Soooo yeah it can work both ways too.

I don't understand your point.

Just the fact that another group can come in and kill you, makes it not purely a PvE thing, but rather a PvX thing. Now in most cases, and this is based on my experience from other games, killing a boss isn't even the main or the most exciting thing about the whole event. It's the PvP against other group(s) itself that makes it fun and engaging.

This is kinda my point most PvE task are PvX, Most PvP tasks are PvX aswell.

Even things people see as only PVP still comes back to being PvX, Ganking greens like an ass you then have to PvE to clear corruption, Seiging/nodewars has PvE involved aswell, Caravans might not get attacked by other players but u most likly need to PvE to clear a path through mobs somewhere.

With a couple of exceptions everything in this game boils down to PvX so slapping the PvE/PvP label on things is pointless since u can flip it around and it still works.

I think the argument about pve vs pvp content though is that pvp can interfere with pve but not visa versa. That's a problem. As a primarily pvp motivated player myself, there's a long term issue if there isn't a way for people who enjoy pve to have meaningful content that pvp cant interfere with. They need their own loop.

Just a fun little tibbit here about PvE not being able to interfere with PvP it can
1- New world has the issue where unflagged player would pull mobs onto node PvP flagged people were trying to harvest to interupt there harvest and steal there node
2- Most PvP objectives has PvE quiet often pvp fights get interupted by mobs and the dmg they deal determines the fight
3- You been able to train/pull mobs onto pvp players who are engaged in fights or what not.
4- Often there NPC guards in games that will assist in seiges
5- battle grounds often have PvE elements take alteract valley in WOW had those 8 or something rider you could summon who would run down and engage the other group (wolf riders for horde for example)

Every Openworld PvP game has PvE heavily interwined with it and some instances PvP also has PvE involved in it that can/will intervene with PvP content. Most PvP in games is actually PvX, that also being said quite often alot of PvE games is indirectly PvX too since u are competing with players around you in some way or form aswell even if it isnt straight up attacking the players

In every single one of those scenarios listed, a PvEer would be secondary. PvP is the determining factor in all of those scenarios.

Again, for PvErs, they want challenging and rewarding content that can't be overridden by pvp. This doesn't mean ALL pve content should be "safe". It just that means there should be SOME to compliment the dirth of pvp content in Ashes.

Having the ability to collect time sensitive boss lock/summon keys would be a good balance.

Everything you guys have listed so far still make challenging pve an afterthought that can still be trumped by pvp.

Dimitraeos

player would pull mobs onto node PvP flagged people were trying to harvest to interupt there harvest and steal there node

This is neither challenging or meaningful pve in the first place and is again an example of pve in the "pvx" equation being an afterthought.

2- Most PvP objectives has PvE quiet often pvp fights get interupted by mobs and the dmg they deal determines the fight

A few mobs getting burned down in the middle of a pvp battle isn't meaningful pve. Again, an afterthought where pvp is primary.

3- You been able to train/pull mobs onto pvp players who are engaged in fights or what not.

Same thing as point 1, that's not meaningful pve gameplay. Pve enjoyers play pve bot to fuck with other people but to enjoy challenging and rewarding boss fights. This again proves my point that pve so far is an afterthought.

4- Often there NPC guards in games that will assist in seiges

That will have players around them making the first threat a pvp one. Again, not a pve challenge.

5- battle grounds often have PvE elements take alteract valley in WOW had those 8 or something rider you could summon who would run down and engage the other group (wolf riders for horde for example)

Mindless mobs that were sprinkled in with hordes of other players. Again, a side show for pve.

I'll reiterate the point:

PvErs want meaningful content that is challenging and rewarding and that can't be interfered with by other players.

Being able to farm open world monsters for boss summon items that give you a small window to fight challenging bosses with your buddies is still the most balanced solution because you risk competing for those mobs, you risk wasting the key if the fight can't be beat and you risk losing your loot to gankers after you're done. But you WILL be able to just focus on a good challenging pve encounter while you're actually fighting it and the devs can actually design engaging pve fights around that knowing pvp won't get in the way of it.

THATS what pvers want.

Child Item