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How to make Support classes (Bard and Summoner) unique, viable and needed in every group?
Githal
Member
The most basic thing is that Other classes should not be able to do what the support classes do. But what this includes?
Every class (or almost every) should have some self mobility (be it charge, teleport, move speed increase or ect). Also most will most likely have at least 1 cc (stun/silence/slow/sleep/freeze and ect). So if there is DR on cc - in a 8v8 fight, if every dps uses 1 cc - then the Bard/Summoner using cc on the target will be with 1/20 of the time (if not complete immune).
So 1 way to solve this is give supports cc separate DR than non support spells. For example all dps classes share DR of their stun spell. So if Mage freeze stun you, the next stun you get from rogue will be with half duration. BUT Bard stun will share DR with other bards and summoners, so after mage freeze, Bard can stun for full duration, but if another bard or summoner stun the same target the duration is halved (which dont affect dps stun duraion)
Other thing is that in PVE most bosses will be immune to CC, and as a whole utility like increase ally move speed, or grip ally to your position and other like this wont be very useful in PVE. So their buffs/debuffs should be good enough to compensate in pve situations.
Maybe they can be the only classes with cleanse spells as a unique mechanic.
What do you think and do you have other or better ideas?
Every class (or almost every) should have some self mobility (be it charge, teleport, move speed increase or ect). Also most will most likely have at least 1 cc (stun/silence/slow/sleep/freeze and ect). So if there is DR on cc - in a 8v8 fight, if every dps uses 1 cc - then the Bard/Summoner using cc on the target will be with 1/20 of the time (if not complete immune).
So 1 way to solve this is give supports cc separate DR than non support spells. For example all dps classes share DR of their stun spell. So if Mage freeze stun you, the next stun you get from rogue will be with half duration. BUT Bard stun will share DR with other bards and summoners, so after mage freeze, Bard can stun for full duration, but if another bard or summoner stun the same target the duration is halved (which dont affect dps stun duraion)
Other thing is that in PVE most bosses will be immune to CC, and as a whole utility like increase ally move speed, or grip ally to your position and other like this wont be very useful in PVE. So their buffs/debuffs should be good enough to compensate in pve situations.
Maybe they can be the only classes with cleanse spells as a unique mechanic.
What do you think and do you have other or better ideas?
1
Comments
You're right to put Bard in the support class role, given it's been stated to be structured around supporting others. But you're just kind of... giving it stuff that it has no need for and isn't part of the definition for the archetype. Bard is a buff-oriented archetype, meant to be the midliner that makes sure everyone else becomes more powerful. Not cleansing (which is a Cleric ability), not CCs, nothing like that. Bards are essential as a support because they make everyone else stronger, not because they can do something nobody else can. There's no reason to give them some super special unique ability beyond that, because buffing your teammates is actually already horrendously powerful.
Idk what games you played so far, but your definition of the Bard class is the most boring thing i have ever heard, Like for real you expect people to play a class that stays afk and uses mass buffs for increase dmg and some non cc debufs? Insane. When you look the fighter preview do you say to yourself "this class will be super boring to play?" No? Then why would you suggest such idea for a bard class.
And the summoner is jack of all trades, but he cant fill any of the roles. He can do dmg, but cant reach a dps dmg, he can heal but cant reach cleric healing, he can tank, but cant be the main tank. He can off tank, off heal, or do some below average dmg, or support with worse spells than a bard. So why even make summoner class if he is worse at what he will be doing than the dedicated class?
And tbh being jack of all trades is exactly how i imagine a support class being played. Since for me a support fills the gaps in the group and helps wherever it is needed. Even the Bard i imagine being a jack of all trades.
Your group needs dps? Bard buffs dmg done of parties (summoner delas the dmg himself but the role is the same), You need someone to help team survive? Bard uses some defensive skills (Summoner tank the adds boss spown), You need CC? Both classes should have plenty. (and when i say this i mean he does everything in 1 fight At 1 moment he helps with dps, at one moment he helps with survivability, at one moment he helps with cc all in 1 fight, then he helps with mobility, and CLEANSE which should be the support class spell and not Cleric spell (since the cleric already has his class identity) - and this is "jack of all trades" which should include both bard and summoner as "support classes")
And the idea of class doing what the rest cant is the core of every class design.
Instead doing your "pathetic" idea for the bard - they would better make the class 7 without the bard. and put some Banner that can be placed in fights that provide you buffs. WIll do the same thing just you wont make some player waste his time for what a banner can do.
The reason you are thinking a class based around buffing is boring is because you are taking the mechanic of buffing from games that have it as a minor aspect of many classes and just assuming that is how it always works.
If designed well, a class based around buffing can be one of the most fun to play.
Can you provide game with such implementations of the buffs? Coz if you cant then your comment is baseless with nothing to back it up.
Moreso EQ2.
I don't make baseless comments. If I have no base, I don't comment.
dam... Well you could say this since in EQ2 every class feels boring, not just support. So Maybe you are right to say that support there doesnt feel more boring than the other boring classes
I'm going to assume you have never made it past level 60.
If you are playing low level, then I agree 100%.
When you hit the level cap and get yourself in to a raid, it is the best PvE MMO experience that has existed - in no small part due to the two bard classes the game has.
Ah yes. the good old "stay at 1 place without moving" combat where you press the same 4 skills rotation all the time. Guess if we were at 2004 year the game would feel good, but i dont think the pve there is good now,
Man the only thing that can make you not spam the same rotation over and over and over and over again are Heroic opportunities which feels like messing your rotation for them is reducing your dps in most cases. So idk what you talking about.
Heroic oppoortunities are something that every single player realizes aren't worth using by the time they hit level 3. If you played the game, you would know this.
If you have to google something in order to pretend you know what you are talking about, just stop talking.
TBH it feels like you havent played any other MMO, and cant make the comparison yourself.
Yeah, you have no actual points left to make.
You were told by someone that bards are often buff classes, and then made the assumption that this would mean buffs as per the games you are used to, rather than actually making a class built around buffing.
When pointed out to you that this is indeed the case in other games, you didn't believe me and asked me to state which games I was talking about. You were hoping I wouldn't name any, with the intention of using that to discredit the comment (it wouldn't, just because something hasn't been does, doesn't mean it can't be done).
However, when games were named, you then attempted to badmouth the game in an attempt to make render anything positive about the game as a negative. When it was pointed out that it seemed you didn't know the game very well, you googled a basic fact about the game and just so happened to have stumbled on one of the very few things that make it blatantly obvious you have not played the game at all, ever.
When this was pointed out to you, you come up with the above.
Don't think for a second that everyone can't see through you like a damn window. We all know this kind of bullshit - you can't get away with it here.
So, the most recent useful part of this conversation was the statement that a bard class based around buffing does not mean what you think it means. Would you like to go back to that point and carry on the conversation?
Do you realize that there is not a single Argument that you pointed out during our whole conversation? Not a single. You gave a name of a game that you supposedly think has good buffing class. But all you say are empty words without any reasoning why you think the buffing class there is good.
I tell you thinks like "combat feels lacking coz you just spam rotations", and all you say is "this is bs", but you never explain your point of view and why you think so. All you say are empty words with no wight.
You may be good candidate for politician. You can listen them talk for hours, and in the end they said nothing
You spent a few minutes googling a game, made a comment and expect a discussion - no. In regards to things you do not know, you listen, you do not discuss. You get told, you do not argue. Arguing back is how you specifically do not learn.
That is what this is, it is me telling you where you are wrong, not us discussing it or arguing it.
So your whole mindset is the problem then? You expect to converse your point of view and tell someone is wrong without giving a single argument (and yes argument is different from arguing maybe you can google the meaning).
No, I expect people to not argue matters they have no understanding of.
I will happily argue at length with people that do, just not with those that don't.
And especially not those dishonest enough to attempt to pretend that they have an understanding.
Quite honestly, with your dishonesty in this thread, what do you expect?
Again empty words. Talking with you feels like 2 people talking and 1 saying that the "sky is blue" and the other saying that "the sky is black", and in the end none give any argument and but think they are right. But then 1 of them provides the scientific arguments and the truth is shown. BTW you are the one who has no arguments to give and is just saying empty words.
Again, the most recent useful part of this thread was stating that you assuming a class based on buffs was an afk buffbot was incorrect.
I'm quite happy to go back to that point if you want.
Sure go back to the point. So now is the perfect time to make your EMPTY WORDS in to not empty words by saying why you think the buffing class in EQ2 is not boring to play
Because the class is built around many incredibly powerful, short duration, generally single target, long recast buffs that your friends absolutely love getting cast on them, but that give them immunity to said buff for a duration after recieving it, meaning the class is about communication within your group or raid more than anything.
These buffs not only make your friends more powerful, they make their gameplay more interesting by offering them up optoins that they simply don't have without you there.
Basically, it isn't the class you thought it was.
A big part of the reason your whole line of "EQ2 is about rotations" bullshit simply isn't true is because of the buffs cast by bards. You can't have a rotation when both your spells cast and reuse timer is changing.
Now, an argument could be made that a buffing class is boring to play if you don't have friends, but the bigger issue there is not having friends.
But isnt this an argument of "why other classes are not boring in EQ2"?
From what you said the Buffer still feels boring as fk. You just have to know from a guide when exactly to use your long cd spell and thats it. And by this you make the gameplay of the other players interesting. But i am talking about the Buffer gameplay.
If you are following a guide, you are at best an average player. If you are a bard in a group or a raid and you are following a guide, you are limiting that group or raid to being average at best - because a good bard makes a bigger difference than a good healer or a good DPS.
There is a reason raids in EQ2 with 24 players, in a game with 24 classes, would try and take along 5 bards.
Different classes appeal to different people.
If you are the kind of person that enjoys helping your friends, then a bard may well be the class for you.
If you do not enjoy that, then a bard may not be the class for you.
Ok so instead of guide it is a player spamming "buff me now". OK got it.
And yes while i agree that different players prefer different classes, i still think that unless a class is engaging enough it wont feel right. And just because players play them because they are needed also doesnt meant that they are having fun playing them.
I remember in Lost Ark, Where btw there is no true healer and tank, There is tanky class and support class. but the trinity is lacking.
So there on game release you would see that bards and paladins (the 2 support classes), are like 1% of the population only coz they were not fun enough like the other classes. But then the demand of them in harder raids was so big, that you would see so many players playing them, just because they would enter groups without being gate kept. (by gate kept i mean that only the p2w would get in groups fast, and the rest would be playing with randoms and fail bosses in simple mechanics, and the bosses there had 1 of the hardest mechanics in any MMO, so you can imagine how the pugs were doing)
The thing you should be taking in here is that bards as a buff class are a thing, they are not what you think they are at all, many people enjoy them, but you may not be one of those people.
You do not have the intention to understand any more than that, so just stick with trying to understand that. Any time you come up with a "so it's just" in a way where you are saying the idea doesn't work, make the assumption that it is simply your ignorance on the matter shining through, and the class is indeed enjoyable to those that, well, enjoy it. The class split in the early days of an MMORPG has more to do with the names of those classes than anything else.
It has almost nothing at all to do with how fun a given class is, because most people have no idea how much fun each class is.
Well tbh i mostly play heal classes, but in other games this includes both the heal and support in 1 class. This includes healing, cleansing, cc, buffs, debuffs, mobility support and ect. Here in AOC the heal and support will be separated. This means that the responsibilities of each will be a lot less (tho from first impresions a cleric will have a lot bigger part of those responsibilities and thats why i made the post). So it just feels for me that the support will need more responsibilities in the battlefield, or else it wont be engaging enough. But guess there will be few people who will enjoin playing even a boring class as long as their friends enjoy the game coz of their buffs.
* heals
* shields
* cleanse/mass cleanse
* 2 spells for move speed increase (single target)
* 1 grip that pulls ally to your location (single target)
* fear (cc)
* debuff enemies
* Dot dmg over time spells to help dps (and the dps is not that low btw)
* Buff that increase a single target ally cast speed by a lot
* spells to reduce dmg taken by ally (single target)
* drain mana from enemy
* reduce enemy attack range
* mind control (something like cc where your character also cant fight)
* also big cd spell that converts healing enemy target receives into dmg for short duration
As you can imagine there is always something you will have to be doing in every group be it PVP or PVE. And sometimes you have to sacrifice doing 1 thing to do something else (making choices). This is what i call engaging gameplay.
Why wouldn't the same gameplay type happen with just buffs alone, then?
The thing that makes you change buffs is the variety in the situation faced. If the situation has enough variety, then you're always making choices and sacrificing doing 1 thing to do something else.
WOW tended to not have so much variety of that type at first, so the Disc Priest also had time to heal/shield (or really, needed to have that responsibility too or it'd be less engaging).
So any game where the Bard has that many choices to make is fine, right?
Yes thats right. So in my initial post i tried to explain some of my ideas how the pure support non healing class can have more responsibilities, and also a way that his responsibilities cant be overtaken by other classes. Since if the Bard loses his uniqueness then he will be replaceable and may even not be needed in groups.