Should Cleric be a viable solo class ?

Aiyara

I am opening a discussion today on the cleric and how solo friendly it is.

My main points of discussion are :

1- We know cleric is the main healer in AoC and that's his identity, however is it the only way to play the class ? Will it require a party to function and is pretty 1 dimentional-useless when played solo with only an 8s CD smite, high CD Condemn, and weapon autoattacks for damage ?

2- Following the previous reasoning, do you personally believe a cleric should stay solely in its 'healing' archetype as their only gameplay mechanic or would you rather clerics be / have the option to be active contributors to fights (PVP and PVE encounters) in more engaging ways with damage too, or CC etc.. ?

3- Can/should a cleric do solo pvp ? defend himself when jumped while gathering - running caravan - farming etc.. ? or are they doomed as the dps classes slaughter them as they 'are tuned to function in a party and not supposed to run solo' ?

So far in livestreams in parties, we see clerics mainly heal the tank / party members, and then wait for them to get hurt to heal again, and I'm wondering if that is what they're designed to do in parties so far in the game state

tautau

Back in L2, assuming that is relevant, with the right build a Cardinal could certainly solo and was also very welcome in parties going to difficult places.

I had great fun doing that and I hope I can again in AoC.

Halae

My opinion is that Final Fantasy 14 has actually set a gold standard for what healers and tanks should be, in that they should be capable of contributing in other ways than exclusively playing whack-a-mole with the team's health bars, as they're capable of dishing out damage and aren't necessarily required to exclusively be a healing pylon. But that's just my opinion.

What we actually have from Steven's statements isn't too far from that concept, though. He's stated that Clerics in Ashes will be capable of dealing damage just fine, and even specifically speccing for damage if that's the cleric player's jam. The reason they aren't being used as such in the livestreams is that, generally speaking, they're using the clerics in those streams as support to keep the actual showcase players alive, such as Steven himself.

As with most healers in this sort of situation, they're the rock paper scissors answer to tanks and other "damage over time" setups. Tanks can't be killed by DPS before the tank nibbles them to death, DPS can rapid-kill healers, and tanks deal damage too slowly for healers to die to them. At least, that's the way it often pans out; we'll have to see how Ashes shapes up in that regard.

Chicago

Halae wrote: »

My opinion is that Final Fantasy 14 has actually set a gold standard for what healers and tanks should be, in that they should be capable of contributing in other ways than exclusively playing whack-a-mole with the team's health bars, as they're capable of dishing out damage and aren't necessarily required to exclusively be a healing pylon. But that's just my opinion.

What we actually have from Steven's statements isn't too far from that concept, though. He's stated that Clerics in Ashes will be capable of dealing damage just fine, and even specifically speccing for damage if that's the cleric player's jam. The reason they aren't being used as such in the livestreams is that, generally speaking, they're using the clerics in those streams as support to keep the actual showcase players alive, such as Steven himself.

As with most healers in this sort of situation, they're the rock paper scissors answer to tanks and other "damage over time" setups. Tanks can't be killed by DPS before the tank nibbles them to death, DPS can rapid-kill healers, and tanks deal damage too slowly for healers to die to them. At least, that's the way it often pans out; we'll have to see how Ashes shapes up in that regard.

I don't think tanks shouldn't be able to be killed by dps, I do agree tanks need a viable role in PvP, but being immune to dps is a bit insane, not to mention, how much self healing does a tank have? Any ranged dps should be able to kill them relatively easily

Halae

Not immune, I never said that. I'm just of the opinion that tanks should be capable of holding out against a DPS long enough to kill 'em if attacked.

Fantmx

Yes they should be and already are viable for solo. The listed spells are also not your only options. There is and will continue to be a good mix of spells and melee. Will your TTK be high? Not at all. You should be prepared for longer fights.

Myosotys

Aika wrote: »

I am opening a discussion today on the cleric and how solo friendly it is.

My main points of discussion are :

1- We know cleric is the main healer in AoC and that's his identity, however is it the only way to play the class ? Will it require a party to function and is pretty 1 dimentional-useless when played solo with only an 8s CD smite, high CD Condemn, and weapon autoattacks for damage ?

2- Following the previous reasoning, do you personally believe a cleric should stay solely in its 'healing' archetype as their only gameplay mechanic or would you rather clerics be / have the option to be active contributors to fights (PVP and PVE encounters) in more engaging ways with damage too, or CC etc.. ?

3- Can/should a cleric do solo pvp ? defend himself when jumped while gathering - running caravan - farming etc.. ? or are they doomed as the dps classes slaughter them as they 'are tuned to function in a party and not supposed to run solo' ?

So far in livestreams in parties, we see clerics mainly heal the tank / party members, and then wait for them to get hurt to heal again, and I'm wondering if that is what they're designed to do in parties so far in the game state

According to my personal experience, Cleric should be a good class for PVE solo (Decent damage, tanky vs strong mobs, zone damage), weak damage in PvP but tanky to be very difficult to kill. I imagine him almost impossible to kill in 1V1.

Iskiab

yes

Iskiab

dupe

Azherae

For what though? Just leveling and maybe material gathering (from kills) once Leveling is done?

This always depends on the target, for me, and it's not always obvious either, so sometimes people think it can't be done when it can (efficiently or not is a different question).

And ofc secondary matters too.

I wouldn't mind if there were stretches of leveling where it was very difficult to find targets that Shadow Disciples could solo, for example, or if the standard problem I have in FFXI applies and I can't solo enemy Elite/Notorious Summoners as Shadow Disciple because I lack the DPS for it.

But then, maybe a Templar could do it, so it really depends.

Taleof2Cities

Azherae wrote: »

For what though? Just leveling and maybe material gathering (from kills) once Leveling is done?

Kind of surprised this point hadn't been brought up yet given the number of replies in the thread.

Combat balance in Ashes of Creation is through the lens of an 8-person group ... not solo encounters.

While I think Steven and the Combat Team will make some sort of effort to make niche builds viable, I hope players (such as the OP) keep their expectations in check when it comes to soloability of those niche builds.

Dygz

I expect all of the classes to be about equally viable solo - keeping in mind that Ashes is designed for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.

Dolyem

All classes should be able to push content solo to an extent. Though with a game being balanced around 8 player group gameplay will likely see some classes excelling at playing solo while others will be lacking. This can be through not enough self sustainability, or not enough dps to clear areas. Should Clerics specifically be viable soloing content? I am indifferent. But I think it should just come down to wherever the classes land in terms of viability for any solo content in direct relation to what the 8 player group balancing plays out to. But if the Devs, for whatever reason, have time and resources to tweak solo class capabilities across the board for both PVE and PVP, that would be hella cool.

Myosotys

Dygz wrote: »

I expect all of the classes to be about equally viable solo - keeping in mind that Ashes is designed for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.

I disagree here. All classes must be balanced, but not equal. Equals is boring.

And anyway, the Cleric is a healer who excels in groups, so it seems logical that he should be weaker in 1v1 PvP.

It also makes sense that some classes can farm more effectively than others in PvE or fit more or less to certain areas.

That's the magic of MMOs: accepting that you need others to build your char.

Dygz

Equally viable for Solo.
Ashes is Rock-Paper-Scissors for PvP.

Aiyara

Fantmx wrote: »

Yes they should be and already are viable for solo. The listed spells are also not your only options. There is and will continue to be a good mix of spells and melee. Will your TTK be high? Not at all. You should be prepared for longer fights.

This is amazing to hear, that's what it's supposed to be like and I am glad if they are pushing this direction

Myosotys wrote: »

And anyway, the Cleric is a healer who excels in groups, so it seems logical that he should be weaker in 1v1 PvP.

I am very curious to know the reasoning behind this statement, to me it doesn't make any sense, why should cleric be weak 1v1 if it excels in groups ?

I don't mind, and even find it necessary for them to have good damage capabilities to defend themselves in a loot-drop pvp game or no one will pick cleric because they will be easy targets to grief in the open world.

But I agree it should be balanced and not have as much damage as a dps class that's for sure, but not be a sitting healing loot pinata waiting to be picked up by the rogue / ranger player if found gathering in the open world.

In group content it is balanced both by gear choice (they choose if they spec into offense or healing) and by decisions, if they are dpsing in group fights, they are not healing their teammates and are then just a weaker version of a dps in a group fight scenario

Myosotys wrote: »

It also makes sense that some classes can farm more effectively than others in PvE or fit more or less to certain areas.

This I agree with and have no issue with as they would be balanced in other areas

Aszkalon

Of Course a Healer/Cleric should be able to play Solo.


Said Cleric should just watch the Hell out for some Melee Mobs, though. Same as the Mage Character who went to the Minotaur-Camp in a Presentation Months ago.

Texas

Battle Cleric is one of the strongest solo builds right now. I kind of expect them to be strong solo going forward because self-sustain tends to be a powerful tool even if they have less CC and dmg than other classes. I think they are the only class without a mobility ability, though.

Myosotys

Aika wrote: »

I am very curious to know the reasoning behind this statement, to me it doesn't make any sense, why should cleric be weak 1v1 if it excels in groups ?

This means that, for the sake of balance, an asset must be offset by a weakness. If the cleric excels everywhere, then he's OP.

Aika wrote: »

But I agree it should be balanced and not have as much damage as a dps class that's for sure

This what I meant. I m not telling it's must be a total crap in 1V1 but not in the top tiers classes 1V1

Dygz

Top tier 1v1 is going to depend on Rock/Paper/Scissors.
So, each is top-tier vs at least one other Primary Archetype.

Aiyara

Agree, hope rock paper scissors power difference is close though to allow skill expression to determine outcome of fight instead of mostly predetermined by class

Vhalken

I will mold the cleric into a viable crusading paladin and slam dunk on people.

Or riot.

nanfoodle

Cleric DPS build should be as viable as any DPS buiod from any class. Of course it should have its own flavor. This has been Steven's promise. That every build should be viable. With duel spec being part of Ashes. This will just make more people playing a healer.

I'm playing a Bard in Tarisland. It's a fun game to kill time. I'm questing and playing duo or killing world bosses. I running around playing a really fun DPS spec. I want to run dungeons or raids. I swap to heals and have a blast doing that.

I hope Clerics, Bards get much the same treatment. Fully functional DPS spec and a fully functional support spec.

Saabynator

I think every class should be able to solo, to some extent. But it should not be really great at it. You can do small tasks, sidequests and so on. If you go to gather wood, you can effectively defend yourself vs mobs your own level.

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Cleric DPS build should be as viable as any DPS buiod from any class.

Only if a healing mage build is as viable as a cleric.

It would be wrong to have one and not the other.

Saabynator

Noaani wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Cleric DPS build should be as viable as any DPS buiod from any class.

Only if a healing mage build is as viable as a cleric.

It would be wrong to have one and not the other.

Viable does not necessarily means speed or attack power. Maybe a cleric is viable to solo in the sense, that they can heal their way out of trouble. Where a mage is viable in the way, that they kill fast.

Dimitraeos

Chicago wrote: »

Halae wrote: »

My opinion is that Final Fantasy 14 has actually set a gold standard for what healers and tanks should be, in that they should be capable of contributing in other ways than exclusively playing whack-a-mole with the team's health bars, as they're capable of dishing out damage and aren't necessarily required to exclusively be a healing pylon. But that's just my opinion.

What we actually have from Steven's statements isn't too far from that concept, though. He's stated that Clerics in Ashes will be capable of dealing damage just fine, and even specifically speccing for damage if that's the cleric player's jam. The reason they aren't being used as such in the livestreams is that, generally speaking, they're using the clerics in those streams as support to keep the actual showcase players alive, such as Steven himself.

As with most healers in this sort of situation, they're the rock paper scissors answer to tanks and other "damage over time" setups. Tanks can't be killed by DPS before the tank nibbles them to death, DPS can rapid-kill healers, and tanks deal damage too slowly for healers to die to them. At least, that's the way it often pans out; we'll have to see how Ashes shapes up in that regard.

I don't think tanks shouldn't be able to be killed by dps, I do agree tanks need a viable role in PvP, but being immune to dps is a bit insane, not to mention, how much self healing does a tank have? Any ranged dps should be able to kill them relatively easily

Tanks so far have an extremely important role on pvp compared to many other MMOs that we have seen.

So far they dampen damage in an area around them and on selected allies, redirect damage from allies to themselves, can physically block incoming projectiles and taunt enemy players to reduce the damage they deal to anyone but the tank. As well as having a number of control and pull abilities in pvp.

I'd say tanks are in a great spot to be a crucial component of any fighting force. I'd go as far as saying, without a good line of tanks in your group/raid, your team risks being rolled through like paper.

They should be able to tank at least 1-2 full dps.

Depraved

Aika wrote: »

I am opening a discussion today on the cleric and how solo friendly it is.

My main points of discussion are :

1- We know cleric is the main healer in AoC and that's his identity, however is it the only way to play the class ? Will it require a party to function and is pretty 1 dimentional-useless when played solo with only an 8s CD smite, high CD Condemn, and weapon autoattacks for damage ?

2- Following the previous reasoning, do you personally believe a cleric should stay solely in its 'healing' archetype as their only gameplay mechanic or would you rather clerics be / have the option to be active contributors to fights (PVP and PVE encounters) in more engaging ways with damage too, or CC etc.. ?

3- Can/should a cleric do solo pvp ? defend himself when jumped while gathering - running caravan - farming etc.. ? or are they doomed as the dps classes slaughter them as they 'are tuned to function in a party and not supposed to run solo' ?

So far in livestreams in parties, we see clerics mainly heal the tank / party members, and then wait for them to get hurt to heal again, and I'm wondering if that is what they're designed to do in parties so far in the game state

seeing how aoc will revolve around tilting the scale in favor of a different playstyle by using your 2ndary archetype and augments, I think dps or solo options will be available for the cleric (and should be). they wont be as strong as a dps clss tho.

they will most likely still be able to win in any 1v1. for party play, I want my clerics to heal, not to dps or do other stuff. those are way below 2ndary things to do for a healer. tanks tank, healers heal and dps do damage.

P0GG0

its real complicated when you looking for a healer and that person is actually an hybrid with half the expected healing.

rollox

I like my Clerics to surprise their opponents with a massive debilitating bash of their mace across you face.

Night Wings

Every class "should" be able to do solo content some just might be better or faster and with subclasses clerics can choose into subclass that helps with soloing.