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Control class missing? Build viability? Trinity will leave Ashes bland like ESO
Shadock
Member
Upon researching the different classes, combos, skills, etc I've noticed what I think might be one of the more glaring oversights (unless I've missed something, please correct me). That of course as the title reads is the availability or viability of playing or at least creating a build that fills the roles in other MMOs of offensive/defensive support. In Lotro this is the loremaster which is similar to what I imagine the Summoner will be, we shall see. In Everquest, this is the Enchanter.
TLDR, for those that don't know this is essentially a class that on its own isn't DPS, tank, or healing heavy, but instead serves to cc, daze, stun, root, disable, mobs on mass, debuff enemies, and buff allies making it easier for the rest of the party to live up to their roles. This kind of build or role has always allowed others to reach their peak performance they couldn't otherwise reach with their chosen class. Spells in DnD like hold person, hold monster, fear, spike growth, and dispel magic are spells in the wheelhouse for this role.
Now theory craft here with me for a moment. The best I could come up with in terms of something like this is perhaps a Bard, Cleric, or Summoner. The only issue with Cleric is that you've fallen into primary healer territory instead of offensive/defensive support. Some of the class combos at least by name imply something like this for example:
Summoner/Bard aka the Enchanter
Summoner/Cleric aka the Necromancer
Bard/Summoner aka the Songcaller
Bard/Cleric aka the Soulweaver
Cleric/Bard aka the Scryer
Cleric/Summoner aka the Shaman
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes#Classes_by_archetype_combination
What I fear will happen and perhaps is already happening is that Ashes will end up just like ESO where the meta for raids, PVP, etc will end in the trinity roles and others won't be viable enough to waste a spot in the group comp. Essentially making it rather difficult to find or create a group without opening yourself up to some toxic behavior from other players. I hope this isn't the case as it left combat in ESO wanting. If you don't want to DPS you're left with tanking or healing in modern MMOS. It's truly a travesty for the industry IMO. Younger MMO players out there may not even be aware that non-trinity roles exist.
Perhaps I'm in the minority for wanting something in this direction or perhaps it is intended, but I've missed it. Please let me know. It is also possible that with the unveiling of Alpha 2 later this year and new updates, my concerns will be proven unfounded.
TLDR, for those that don't know this is essentially a class that on its own isn't DPS, tank, or healing heavy, but instead serves to cc, daze, stun, root, disable, mobs on mass, debuff enemies, and buff allies making it easier for the rest of the party to live up to their roles. This kind of build or role has always allowed others to reach their peak performance they couldn't otherwise reach with their chosen class. Spells in DnD like hold person, hold monster, fear, spike growth, and dispel magic are spells in the wheelhouse for this role.
Now theory craft here with me for a moment. The best I could come up with in terms of something like this is perhaps a Bard, Cleric, or Summoner. The only issue with Cleric is that you've fallen into primary healer territory instead of offensive/defensive support. Some of the class combos at least by name imply something like this for example:
Summoner/Bard aka the Enchanter
Summoner/Cleric aka the Necromancer
Bard/Summoner aka the Songcaller
Bard/Cleric aka the Soulweaver
Cleric/Bard aka the Scryer
Cleric/Summoner aka the Shaman
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes#Classes_by_archetype_combination
What I fear will happen and perhaps is already happening is that Ashes will end up just like ESO where the meta for raids, PVP, etc will end in the trinity roles and others won't be viable enough to waste a spot in the group comp. Essentially making it rather difficult to find or create a group without opening yourself up to some toxic behavior from other players. I hope this isn't the case as it left combat in ESO wanting. If you don't want to DPS you're left with tanking or healing in modern MMOS. It's truly a travesty for the industry IMO. Younger MMO players out there may not even be aware that non-trinity roles exist.
Perhaps I'm in the minority for wanting something in this direction or perhaps it is intended, but I've missed it. Please let me know. It is also possible that with the unveiling of Alpha 2 later this year and new updates, my concerns will be proven unfounded.
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Tank,
DPS,
Healer,
Control.
It's just that they've told us that tanks are the big Control archetype. Which makes sense, given a lot of CC effects shut down a target's ability to deal damage or interrupt their actions, both of which are classically tank-focused capabilities. Per the Tank page of the wiki, Steven said:
In ESO, there’s not so much a ‘healer’ role as ‘buff, interrupt, debuff, contribute damage, and also heal’. There are some exceptions of course but generally the only hardline role is tank. Everyone else better be chipping in damage, and at least a few raid slots go to the builds that have some unique damage buff sets for the group.
I’m assuming Ashes will be much more traditional than that in that your trinity role will focus almost exclusively on that in PvE. PvP is a whole different ball game though, but I don’t figure that was the subject of this topic.
It's owpvp.
If you opt only for dps tanking and healing/support, you will get killed by better players and will have to find another area/boss to grind.
Ye I dont disagree. I think the OP should focus more on the number of archetypes provided rather that titling the topic in relation to "trinity".
In L2 there was a class that would use mass AoE skills to disable, weaken and slow down enemies with voodoo magic. The Orc Overlord.
Every game covers such things. The issue I also have with IS proposed class system is that it provides too few fleshed-out classic gaming archetypes. Staples, if you will, with their distinct playstyle and animations as well as weapon mastery.
They bet that they can pull off yet another "play as you want", "customize your char" model. It didnt work for eso (which is not a model for mmos in any respect) and it didnt work for AA.
The meta with such a model is always narrow with certain class combos and weapons prevailing, and the animations suffer, so that it appears (not succesfully) that any ability works with every weapon in the hands of the character.
I would prefer 15-20 proper archetypes with proper animations, with each of them having 1-3 weapon choices and the rogue and fighter 1-5 weapon choices.
Certain abilities could be shared across certain classes and certain abilities should work only with certain weapons.
None of that has to do with trinity, which concept is only applicable in instanced, sterilized raiding scenarios.
The giant wall ability should be a dead give away
This is how things have migrated based mostly on people following WoW.
Pre-WoW, CC was indeed it's own role, distinct from the tank. WoW did away with it in the same way it did away with support as a distinct role.
As to the OP's concern, i am of the opinion thar CC as a role will be fulfilled in Ashes via specific classes,as opposed to being something that is designated to an entire archetype.
This is simply an incorrect point to make.
The te8nity system is as applicable in PvP as it is in PvE - which in both cases is specifically determined by how the games combat and classes are designed.
L2 had a trinity system, it just wasn't as rigid as it is in some games. ESO has a trinity system, it just isn't as rigid as it is in some games. GW2 has a trinity aystem, it just isn't as rigid as it is in some games.
As to your concerns of class fantasy in regards to Ashes, your concerns there seem to be entirely based on animations and effects. I have no doubt at all that Intrepid will sell animation/effects packs in the store, which will then more than resolve your issue.
Ok.
Control would technically fall into the support role, support by prevent enemy from doing things. Like take a moba for example the support role are either heavy CC or Heavy Buff/heal
Control/debuff = offensive support
Buffs/shields (Heal are technically here too but they get there own spot) = Defensive support
Tanks can also kinda fall in both sections aswell depending on build aswell as it own section from what we seen in previous MMOs
I guess this is not as direct as in other games, but that seems to be intentional as Intrepid has emphasized that the game focuses on group game play, so loading one archetype up with lots of hard CC doesn't seem what they are aiming for.
As for classes: If you are looking for a CC focused build Bard-Tank (Siren), Tank-Bard (Argent), Bard-Cleric (Soul Weaver) and Cleric-Bard (Scryer) might be a strong combos to do exactly that. Depending on what the Summoner can do, this might also be a good class for strong CC, while AOE-Archetypes combined with Cleric or Bard could be strong for buffing or debuffing.
As for the trinity situation - yes, it sounds to me like this is what Intrepid wants to build (Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanics have been mentioned repeatedly) while all classes not fitting that trinity would be enablers or disablers in PvP.
This sentiment of how a tank operates truly confounds me.
CC/disabler/debuffer classes are typically light armor casters with either off-dps or off-healing capabilities. This idea that the tank now fulfills that role entirely is foreign to me and not in the tank's wheelhouse. Tanks are typically engaging with mostly threat management skills, mitigation enhancers, and occasionally some minor debuffs, but certainly as an off-role.
What I'm speaking of is a primary debuffer that operates not as a primary tank, healer, or DPS. Any of those roles would be filled separately. Primary Tank and Cleric would not be feasible for the role of which I speak.
My previous thought about some younger players not knowing what I speak is apparently true. Truly I have become old.
Imagine as well trying to play such a role in a trinity-heavy game. You will be cut from groups and shouted down with names by the masses for being bad at the game.
In Lotro as a contrary example, Loremasters or a similar class specced for that role are required at least 1 per 12man content because their debuffs are so impactful that DPS can't reach numbers on the boss without them. They also handle mass mobs that can't all be tanked at once and are instead slept, stunned, or rooted. I hope that clears up any discrepancies.
If Intrepid claims to be inspired by older-style MMOrpgs then they need to rectify and add a primary archetype with more CC/Debuff tools than others. Per my first post, I believe Summoner may fill this role to some extent based simply on some of the class names, but I could be wrong. If class named Enchanter can't do the above then I'm at a loss lol.
Video that covers the topic:
The clearest demarcation is when GW2 removed the tank role and created a control role instead. Tank in Ashes is not equipped to be control - we saw it time and again in the dev showcases. All tank and spank with little cohesion and plenty of repetition.
Both Bard and Summoner are controllers. Summoner less so dependant on what role is filled.
I'm not sure what control role you refer to in GW2 as its been reduced to just DPS and healers. GW2 nowadays for PVE content consists of 2 five-person subgroups each consisting of 1 healer, 1 boon aka buff support DPS(providing alacrity or quickness the healer doesn't and still expected to contribute DPS), and 3 full DPS. Unless you're referring to the break bar of which everyone has individual skills to contribute to breaking a boss's bar and causing it to be stunned momentarily. Other than that, "control" is a joke in GW2. Anything that is not the above is considered a DPS loss to the community, increasing the TTK, and increasing wipe chance.
GW2 WVW has been reduced to Zerg balling like ESO with healing and AOE spam. There is no control, just follow the party leader, stack tight, and pray your healers don't shit the bed while you throw out as many AOEs as you can.
GW2 PVP is a burst game these days. When you have a 5v5 it's all about picks. If you can nuke 1 guy at the start of an engagement, it's pretty much downhill from there. To not do so is to lose essentially.
The above are reasons as to exactly why I'm raising such a point here while this game is in alpha.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bard
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cleric
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
Taking a look at Bard and Tank I think we see that the Bard is less of a controller and more of an off-heal buffer with a sprinkle of control. A Bard/Cleric will most likely be a solid pick for an off-heal and buffer that is probably mandatory for any hardcore content.
The Tank paints a better picture of battlefield control but has more threat management built into the primary than would be desired for a support controller role.
What I'm seeing and correct me if I'm wrong is that the traditional role of a control class Enchanter is being split between Bard, Tank, less so Cleric, and potentially Summoner. Hopefully, the Summoner showcase will get my hopes up lol(as much as I hate combat ai in MMOs as it always sucks for PVP).
@Songcaller
The best example I can provide as I stated in my previous posts is the Loremaster from LOTRO or the Enchanter from Everquest. The Enchanter is the premiere example of what I speak.
They fill the role of either offensive or defensive support. Controllers are responsible for mesmerizing, rooting, charming, pacifying, and stunning mobs to prevent them from attacking the group or tank. Thus allowing the group to focus on a single target. This enables more effective and coordinated group play. After that role is fulfilled they then offer either off-dps or off-healing depending on the game. In Lotro it's off-healing and in Everquest it's off-dps.
I highly recommend taking a look at these classes to which I refer to understand the role they play. Both are from highly popular and successful MMOs.
There was very little control beyond heals, dps and kiting between us both. A third role of further capability would not have changed the outcomes. We entered the veteran levels across the other realms and still no third party was required.
I can not take the eso reference at face value. I do not see the need for control in eso. If we take DAOC (Dark Age of Camelot) we had various heavy tanks, light tanks, an assassin, an archer, a spec buffer, a base buffer, a main healer and off healer, a speedster, a crowd controller, direct damage caster, bolt caster, damage over time casters a disease caster, nearsighter, bubbler, and pet classes.
In my mind, and, bear in mind I am no dev, Ashes has a similar setup to DAOC. However, I have not witnessed augments or any classes above level 15. The scope and potential is there, though, DAOC is not so prominent in inspiration.
This sentiment you're sharing perfectly exemplifies what I'm speaking about. In ESO you can forgo a tank, and DPS burst through most content with fewer people than the content is made for. This reduces the need for other players to play together when everyone can perform every role individually. This is a negative aspect to be clear and a failure of the devs for allowing their game to come to such a point. Now of course they did make some attempts to remedy this by adding mechanics that required a solid tank to hold the aggro of certain bosses, but this didn't fix the overall problem which was their class design.
The dumbing down of combat where one player can individually, heal themselves, cc others, and DPS is a contributing reason IMO why modern MMOs suck. If you can do everything yourself then why bother playing a massively multiplayer game? Relying on your teammates is a core part of what makes MMO content so fulfilling. Pulling it off as a group with every member serving their class role. This is why we need less healing on every spec except healer, less aggro management on every spec except tank, less DPS on every spec except for DPS, and less cc on every spec except a controller.
Were WoW tanks CC heavy? I remember just about every class in WoW having CCs but the top ones that come to mind would be rogue, mage, and shaman. Tanks were probably the lowest unless you are considering taunts as CC as well, though I would only consider taunts as half CCs since they are specifically for PVE and not everything. This is at least for early WoW. Later literally every class has a different color of every ability or utility in their kit which is lame as hell.
@Songcaller
Well, part of the process for devs is to read feedback, and I'm sure that is part of the reason we're all here having these kinds of discussions and raising valid points for improvement. We want to see an ambitious game such as Ashes reach its full heights, and the only way to do so is with proper feedback. Otherwise this is simply an echo chamber rofl.
@Crolnow
I agree it's probably too early to say. That said, better to object now while there is a higher chance for change than later on in the process. My methodology anyhow.
@Dolyem
It's def a different take, that Tanks are the primary CC in a group. In my experience, the Tank's job is to hold the aggro of the main boss and perhaps a couple of adds. The idea they control the entire battlefield is foreign to me. It's an attempt IMO to combine roles that shouldn't be happening. Separate them IMO so they both operate at a higher level.
The whole idea of tanks being CC heavy just allows them to be viable in PVP combat honestly as opposed to having their only use as being able to sit on an objective and not die instantly or to carry a specific objective. If they have high survivability and are able to section off the battlefield or slow/stun/debuff enemies around them they are a much more viable asset than "go pick up that flag and run with it while everyone else carries you"
The tank will take damage instead other player, the walls and shields. some group buffs and debuffs, i dont think they will have that much CC