The tank will take damage instead other player, the walls and shields. some group buffs and debuffs, i dont think they will have that much CC
Not according to the wiki. Tradd Thompson during the January 2023 tank showcase said this
Ashes of Creation tank will be a pretty classic one: One that tank players are familiar with; and I think that's what people want. We don't need to necessarily redefine what the tank is, but I think we can improve it. There's some things that obviously- you'll have your expected mechanics like threat management and generation, mitigation, control, battlefield control, CC effects; but then we'd also like to see more direct ways of protecting your party members too- exploring, like Aegis, that's just scratching the surface of that thing; but being able to actually actively take damage for your allies, that isn't just manipulating the AI is another thing about tanks that I think a lot of people deal with other games, is they're they're pretty bad in PvP, like when threat is removed from the equation, what am I doing as a tank when players just ignore me? And so we want to offer more direct mechanics that cause even players- or encourage players to attack the tank to make it so that the tank can't protect their allies against you.
Emphasis mine.
Unless the design setup has changed drastically in the past 8 months, it's still going to be the CC class. It was listed as being among its core competencies.
The whole idea of tanks being CC heavy just allows them to be viable in PVP combat honestly as opposed to having their only use as being able to sit on an objective and not die instantly or to carry a specific objective. If they have high survivability and are able to section off the battlefield or slow/stun/debuff enemies around them they are a much more viable asset than "go pick up that flag and run with it while everyone else carries you"
@Dolyem
I would disagree with this. Passing over the obvious of having an ability for tanks to take damage for others or to have a linked buddy, there are several options for Tanks in PVP. Being tankier allows them to operate in a bruiser role for prolonged PVP engagements. We've seen metas shift toward more health and bruiser builds in similar MMOs to survive burst DPS power creep. Defensive support bubbles and some minor projectile reflect barriers, aren't out of the question either. However solid CC, stuns, roots, dazes, etc should be left to a separate spec.
Giving Tanks more CC serves to hinder their primary role and eliminate another.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
The tank will take damage instead other player, the walls and shields. some group buffs and debuffs, i dont think they will have that much CC
Not according to the wiki. Tradd Thompson during the January 2023 tank showcase said this
Ashes of Creation tank will be a pretty classic one: One that tank players are familiar with; and I think that's what people want. We don't need to necessarily redefine what the tank is, but I think we can improve it. There's some things that obviously- you'll have your expected mechanics like threat management and generation, mitigation, control, battlefield control, CC effects; but then we'd also like to see more direct ways of protecting your party members too- exploring, like Aegis, that's just scratching the surface of that thing; but being able to actually actively take damage for your allies, that isn't just manipulating the AI is another thing about tanks that I think a lot of people deal with other games, is they're they're pretty bad in PvP, like when threat is removed from the equation, what am I doing as a tank when players just ignore me? And so we want to offer more direct mechanics that cause even players- or encourage players to attack the tank to make it so that the tank can't protect their allies against you.
Emphasis mine.
Unless the design setup has changed drastically in the past 8 months, it's still going to be the CC class. It was listed as being among its core competencies.
I think having a color-coded overshadowing of your HP bar to let enemies know essentially hey, this person is being protected showing as a bubble essentially for that player and suddenly your DPS is going to do less than normal or be drastically reduced until you kill the Tank. There needs to be a reason that in PVP players would focus on the Tank. If there is not then that is a failure of the Devs to provide meaningful buffs to their core kit for the purposes of PVP or when abilities target players. If the Tank is operating as a control wizard in PVP when this game launches I will be baffled ngl lol.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
The whole idea of tanks being CC heavy just allows them to be viable in PVP combat honestly as opposed to having their only use as being able to sit on an objective and not die instantly or to carry a specific objective. If they have high survivability and are able to section off the battlefield or slow/stun/debuff enemies around them they are a much more viable asset than "go pick up that flag and run with it while everyone else carries you"
@Dolyem
I would disagree with this. Passing over the obvious of having an ability for tanks to take damage for others or to have a linked buddy, there are several options for Tanks in PVP. Being tankier allows them to operate in a bruiser role for prolonged PVP engagements. We've seen metas shift toward more health and bruiser builds in similar MMOs to survive burst DPS power creep. Defensive support bubbles and some minor projectile reflect barriers, aren't out of the question either. However solid CC, stuns, roots, dazes, etc should be left to separate spec.
Giving Tanks more CC serves to hinder their primary role and eliminate another.
100% agree, the game need a CC role with opportunity to a offensive controller or defensive/suppport (Without it the game can find itself on a lack of gameplay variety even with all customable options) https://pwi.fandom.com/wiki/Duskblade_Skill_List classic example of a offensive controller
I think having a color-coded overshadowing of your HP bar to let enemies know essentially hey, this person is being protected showing as a bubble essentially for that player and suddenly your DPS is going to do less than normal or be drastically reduced until you kill the Tank. There needs to be a reason that in PVP players would focus on the Tank. If there is not then that is a failure of the Devs to provide meaningful buffs to their core kit for the purposes of PVP or when abilities target players. If the Tank is operating as a control wizard in PVP when this game launches I will be baffled ngl lol.
I'm sorry but, what? Is "as long as this guy is alive I'm not able to do anything" not enough of a reason for you to target him? I'd feel pretty damn disrupted if some joker with a shield was keeping me from killing something via CC effects. That's a good reason to try and take him out. Or, what, did you not actually read the blurb I wrote? Because control effects as a core competence was included alongside damage mitigation and threat management. I'm really not certain where your argument came from because what you said was answered by what I posted.
I think having a color-coded overshadowing of your HP bar to let enemies know essentially hey, this person is being protected showing as a bubble essentially for that player and suddenly your DPS is going to do less than normal or be drastically reduced until you kill the Tank. There needs to be a reason that in PVP players would focus on the Tank. If there is not then that is a failure of the Devs to provide meaningful buffs to their core kit for the purposes of PVP or when abilities target players. If the Tank is operating as a control wizard in PVP when this game launches I will be baffled ngl lol.
I'm sorry but, what? Is "as long as this guy is alive I'm not able to do anything" not enough of a reason for you to target him? I'd feel pretty damn disrupted if some joker with a shield was keeping me from killing something via CC effects. That's a good reason to try and take him out. Or, what, did you not actually read the blurb I wrote? Because control effects as a core competence was included alongside damage mitigation and threat management. I'm really not certain where your argument came from because what you said was answered by what I posted.
The problem is it eliminates the dedicated roles of defensive and offensive support and combines them into one role that doesn't perform either to the same heights as they would otherwise. Having a dedicated Tank defensive support and a Controller offensive support is 100% more effective in PVP than having a "Tank" that half-asses both roles instead of whole-assing one role. Make sense?
Ideas for Tanks in PVP are to provide buffs while near the tank to increase mitigations, reflect bubbles, teammate protection links so you absorb damage for teammates while increasing their mitigations, physical knockbacks, in Gw2 there is a boon called Aegis that blocks the next incoming attack for nearby allies, Tanks could block incoming attacks for allies within a certain radius, you can even introduce taunts into PVP where the Tank is then highlighted for the enemy player and their DPS is drastically reduced toward any other target. There are other more class-centric and thematic options than gutting the core of another role and calling it a "Tank."
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
Your definition of a "control" role is just a tank that isnt tanky. Tanks are meant for controlling a battle, whether its PVE or PVP, tanks are the spearhead of objectives and pushing into fights while providing CCs.
The giant wall ability should be a dead give away
This is how things have migrated based mostly on people following WoW.
Pre-WoW, CC was indeed it's own role, distinct from the tank. WoW did away with it in the same way it did away with support as a distinct role.
As to the OP's concern, i am of the opinion thar CC as a role will be fulfilled in Ashes via specific classes,as opposed to being something that is designated to an entire archetype.
Were WoW tanks CC heavy? I remember just about every class in WoW having CCs but the top ones that come to mind would be rogue, mage, and shaman. Tanks were probably the lowest unless you are considering taunts as CC as well, though I would only consider taunts as half CCs since they are specifically for PVE and not everything. This is at least for early WoW. Later literally every class has a different color of every ability or utility in their kit which is lame as hell.
@Dolyem
It's def a different take, that Tanks are the primary CC in a group. In my experience, the Tank's job is to hold the aggro of the main boss and perhaps a couple of adds. The idea they control the entire battlefield is foreign to me. It's an attempt IMO to combine roles that shouldn't be happening. Separate them IMO so they both operate at a higher level.
The whole idea of tanks being CC heavy just allows them to be viable in PVP combat honestly as opposed to having their only use as being able to sit on an objective and not die instantly or to carry a specific objective. If they have high survivability and are able to section off the battlefield or slow/stun/debuff enemies around them they are a much more viable asset than "go pick up that flag and run with it while everyone else carries you"
The tank will take damage instead other player, the walls and shields. some group buffs and debuffs, i dont think they will have that much CC
I dont know if they will or not, but they should since Tanks get shafted when it comes to quality PvP content. I am not even a tank player but I hear it all of the time that the tank players only use in PvP is the objective player that gets carried by the team while they carry a flag or something. CC is the perfect asset for tanks as it allows them to help in PvP fights without having to deal damage.
The whole idea of tanks being CC heavy just allows them to be viable in PVP combat honestly as opposed to having their only use as being able to sit on an objective and not die instantly or to carry a specific objective. If they have high survivability and are able to section off the battlefield or slow/stun/debuff enemies around them they are a much more viable asset than "go pick up that flag and run with it while everyone else carries you"
@Dolyem
I would disagree with this. Passing over the obvious of having an ability for tanks to take damage for others or to have a linked buddy, there are several options for Tanks in PVP. Being tankier allows them to operate in a bruiser role for prolonged PVP engagements. We've seen metas shift toward more health and bruiser builds in similar MMOs to survive burst DPS power creep. Defensive support bubbles and some minor projectile reflect barriers, aren't out of the question either. However solid CC, stuns, roots, dazes, etc should be left to a separate spec.
Giving Tanks more CC serves to hinder their primary role and eliminate another.
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
I dont know if they will or not, but they should since Tanks get shafted when it comes to quality PvP content. I am not even a tank player but I hear it all of the time that the tank players only use in PvP is the objective player that gets carried by the team while they carry a flag or something. CC is the perfect asset for tanks as it allows them to help in PvP fights without having to deal damage.
@Dolyem
Being a bunker for an objective game mode is a game-winning strategy that is invaluable to any team comp. I don't understand how that is a negative. Staying alive and holding an objective is an underrated game-winning strategy that most players are too impatient to pull off successfully.
That said, it makes less sense to have the Tank be lesser by giving it more hard CC skills instead of more ally protection skills.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
@Dolyem
Nor should tanks be damage pumpers. That is more of a glass cannon ideal IMO. Bruisers are more survivable and deal damage by outlasting the opponent, not by burst.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
I dont know if they will or not, but they should since Tanks get shafted when it comes to quality PvP content. I am not even a tank player but I hear it all of the time that the tank players only use in PvP is the objective player that gets carried by the team while they carry a flag or something. CC is the perfect asset for tanks as it allows them to help in PvP fights without having to deal damage.
@Dolyem
Being a bunker for an objective game mode is a game-winning strategy that is invaluable to any team comp. I don't understand how that is a negative. Staying alive and holding an objective is an underrated game-winning strategy that most players are too impatient to pull off successfully.
That said, it makes less sense to have the Tank be lesser by giving it more hard CC skills instead of more ally protection skills.
winning a game with strategy is all fine and good. But the primary complaint as far as I can tell is that it isnt fun to play in PvP. Sure you can win by sitting and bunkering, but its not necessarily good gameplay. Some people may very well enjoying it, but more often than not I have almost always seen tank players switch to dps builds if possible for PvP instead due to tank being boring.
No skin off of my teeth either way, I play rogue
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
@Dolyem
Nor should tanks be damage pumpers. That is more of a glass cannon ideal IMO. Bruisers are more survivable and deal damage by outlasting the opponent, not by burst.
Bruisers from my experience tend to be wrecking balls. Mid survivability, high damage, but low mobility.
I dont know if they will or not, but they should since Tanks get shafted when it comes to quality PvP content. I am not even a tank player but I hear it all of the time that the tank players only use in PvP is the objective player that gets carried by the team while they carry a flag or something. CC is the perfect asset for tanks as it allows them to help in PvP fights without having to deal damage.
@Dolyem
Being a bunker for an objective game mode is a game-winning strategy that is invaluable to any team comp. I don't understand how that is a negative. Staying alive and holding an objective is an underrated game-winning strategy that most players are too impatient to pull off successfully.
That said, it makes less sense to have the Tank be lesser by giving it more hard CC skills instead of more ally protection skills.
winning a game with strategy is all fine and good. But the primary complaint as far as I can tell is that it isnt fun to play in PvP. Sure you can win by sitting and bunkering, but its not necessarily good gameplay. Some people may very well enjoying it, but more often than not I have almost always seen tank players switch to dps builds if possible for PvP instead due to tank being boring.
No skin off of my teeth either way, I play rogue
Rofl of course rogue haha.
I'm used to bunkers in Eso and Gw2 where it is absolutely a role people play and it takes 3+ people to kill one guy at times, but this is also because they can heal themselves.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
@Dolyem
Nor should tanks be damage pumpers. That is more of a glass cannon ideal IMO. Bruisers are more survivable and deal damage by outlasting the opponent, not by burst.
Bruisers from my experience tend to be wrecking balls. Mid survivability, high damage, but low mobility.
Our definitions are def different then.
If the tank is all survivability and no damage, bruiser is in the middle, and glass cannon is the opposite.
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
@Dolyem
Nor should tanks be damage pumpers. That is more of a glass cannon ideal IMO. Bruisers are more survivable and deal damage by outlasting the opponent, not by burst.
Bruisers from my experience tend to be wrecking balls. Mid survivability, high damage, but low mobility.
Our definitions are def different then.
If the tank is all survivability and no damage, bruiser is in the middle, and glass cannon is the opposite.
I would say its a bit more complex than that, but I see my description of bruiser being in the middle as well. The low mobility balances it out.
Your definition of a "control" role is just a tank that isnt tanky. Tanks are meant for controlling a battle, whether its PVE or PVP, tanks are the spearhead of objectives and pushing into fights while providing CCs.
The giant wall ability should be a dead give away
This is how things have migrated based mostly on people following WoW.
Pre-WoW, CC was indeed it's own role, distinct from the tank. WoW did away with it in the same way it did away with support as a distinct role.
As to the OP's concern, i am of the opinion thar CC as a role will be fulfilled in Ashes via specific classes,as opposed to being something that is designated to an entire archetype.
Were WoW tanks CC heavy? I remember just about every class in WoW having CCs but the top ones that come to mind would be rogue, mage, and shaman. Tanks were probably the lowest unless you are considering taunts as CC as well, though I would only consider taunts as half CCs since they are specifically for PVE and not everything. This is at least for early WoW. Later literally every class has a different color of every ability or utility in their kit which is lame as hell.
I can't really speak too much of early WoW, all I have is second hand information.
That said, tanks in WoW did have more of what would be considered CC than tanks in games prior to that. Prior to WoW, the only real CC a tank had was in relation to positioning, they didn't have any real abilities to stop a mob from attacking or from aggro'ing. That was exclusively the domain of CC classes (the ability to just make an aggro mob not aggro for a short duration is an often overlooked CC).
The kind of CC tanks had were things like preventing a mob they are in melee combat with from facing any direction other than directly towards the tank. While it is technically CC, it is more just a tool that tanks had to assist them in tanking, it wasn't really about "battlefield control" as Steven seems to think tanks are/were.
Battlefield control was specifically the role of enchanters and other classes like them - classes L2 simply didn't have anything comparible to.
Most games post WoW split the CC up around many different classes. There was often the same over all amount of CC, but classes would get one or two. What this meant is that people just kind of ignored them - there are very few occasions where one single CC ability makes any difference, and communicating CC plans with others is not something that can really happen - if CC is what you are doing, you simply don't have the time to communicate.
That is why a single CC class is so good. You take the CC from all the other classes, hand it to one player, and they just deal with it. If they have 10 - 12 pure CC abilities that they can just throw out as needed, then the tank can assume that player has full battlefield control, and thus the tank can focus on tanking, rather than trying to control.
As of this second Mage and Tank can spec into CC as they wish.
You can read their skills on the wiki.
-Sol
Adding a few minor CC effects to existing abilities, or having a few abilities that have a CC effect as a secondary component really isn't making for a CC build.
A proper full CC build would run with at least 10 full CC abilities. These are abilities that have a CC effect and nothing else. They would also have perhaps 5 or 6 abilities that have a CC effect and deal a small amount of damage as well.
This is not something that is even close to possible with the class builds we know of so far. The best we can do with what we know is a DPS or tank build with a small amount of CC on the side - which is not a CC build.
There is no trinity.
If you opt only for dps tanking
As I just referenced, tanks will be the Control effect class. The purpose of a tank is to ensure that nobody but the tank is dealing with incoming damage and locking down the enemy, right? CC effects do, in fact, do that. This just means you put some poor bastard in a 13 second stunlock while your teammates all beat the piss out of him. That's tanking, baby!
For large scale pvp I would agree. For smaller scale, I am almost positive the Trickster will have the most cc followed by the Spellsword.
In all the past mmos I've played, each class had some sort of CC ability. However, some had stronger forms than others. I think this is the direction ashes is going for.
Reminder: They talked in the bard showcase how they have different CC categories that will (after so many uses on a target) give the target an immunity buff to that cc type.
I think hard CC will probably be the jobs of mages, summoners, and rangers with their sleeps, roots/fears, and traps. I've played plenty of games where there was no class specifically designed around pure CC so I'm honestly not quite sure the need for it considering it is spread out among most DPS classes.
Also, if we are being fair, I don't think any of the showcases have really showed the breadth of their group play with high skill required encounters. We just started seeing things being marked in the last few livestreams and the CC attempted almost always gets broken.
A serious group would have a tank marking which target to focus, which target comes second, and which should be CCd BEFORE the fight starts to avoid breaking any breakable CC like sleep. I think we will see a lot more of this type of gameplay once alpha 2 comes out.
Your definition of a "control" role is just a tank that isnt tanky. Tanks are meant for controlling a battle, whether its PVE or PVP, tanks are the spearhead of objectives and pushing into fights while providing CCs.
The giant wall ability should be a dead give away
This is how things have migrated based mostly on people following WoW.
Pre-WoW, CC was indeed it's own role, distinct from the tank. WoW did away with it in the same way it did away with support as a distinct role.
As to the OP's concern, i am of the opinion thar CC as a role will be fulfilled in Ashes via specific classes,as opposed to being something that is designated to an entire archetype.
Were WoW tanks CC heavy? I remember just about every class in WoW having CCs but the top ones that come to mind would be rogue, mage, and shaman. Tanks were probably the lowest unless you are considering taunts as CC as well, though I would only consider taunts as half CCs since they are specifically for PVE and not everything. This is at least for early WoW. Later literally every class has a different color of every ability or utility in their kit which is lame as hell.
I can't really speak too much of early WoW, all I have is second hand information.
That said, tanks in WoW did have more of what would be considered CC than tanks in games prior to that. Prior to WoW, the only real CC a tank had was in relation to positioning, they didn't have any real abilities to stop a mob from attacking or from aggro'ing. That was exclusively the domain of CC classes (the ability to just make an aggro mob not aggro for a short duration is an often overlooked CC).
The kind of CC tanks had were things like preventing a mob they are in melee combat with from facing any direction other than directly towards the tank. While it is technically CC, it is more just a tool that tanks had to assist them in tanking, it wasn't really about "battlefield control" as Steven seems to think tanks are/were.
Battlefield control was specifically the role of enchanters and other classes like them - classes L2 simply didn't have anything comparible to.
Most games post WoW split the CC up around many different classes. There was often the same over all amount of CC, but classes would get one or two. What this meant is that people just kind of ignored them - there are very few occasions where one single CC ability makes any difference, and communicating CC plans with others is not something that can really happen - if CC is what you are doing, you simply don't have the time to communicate.
That is why a single CC class is so good. You take the CC from all the other classes, hand it to one player, and they just deal with it. If they have 10 - 12 pure CC abilities that they can just throw out as needed, then the tank can assume that player has full battlefield control, and thus the tank can focus on tanking, rather than trying to control.
In all the past mmos I've played, each class had some sort of CC ability. However, some had stronger forms than others. I think this is the direction ashes is going for.
Reminder: They talked in the bard showcase how they have different CC categories that will (after so many uses on a target) give the target an immunity buff to that cc type.
I think hard CC will probably be the jobs of mages, summoners, and rangers with their sleeps, roots/fears, and traps. I've played plenty of games where there was no class specifically designed around pure CC so I'm honestly not quite sure the need for it considering it is spread out among most DPS classes.
I do hope they tone down the CC on all the other classes.
Are there any hints as to the direction with Summoner beyond that it's a jack of all trades?
"Physical books are more than the words they contain. They're also tools to stimulate your senses and adjust your thinking."
Comments
Unless the design setup has changed drastically in the past 8 months, it's still going to be the CC class. It was listed as being among its core competencies.
@Dolyem
I would disagree with this. Passing over the obvious of having an ability for tanks to take damage for others or to have a linked buddy, there are several options for Tanks in PVP. Being tankier allows them to operate in a bruiser role for prolonged PVP engagements. We've seen metas shift toward more health and bruiser builds in similar MMOs to survive burst DPS power creep. Defensive support bubbles and some minor projectile reflect barriers, aren't out of the question either. However solid CC, stuns, roots, dazes, etc should be left to a separate spec.
Giving Tanks more CC serves to hinder their primary role and eliminate another.
I think having a color-coded overshadowing of your HP bar to let enemies know essentially hey, this person is being protected showing as a bubble essentially for that player and suddenly your DPS is going to do less than normal or be drastically reduced until you kill the Tank. There needs to be a reason that in PVP players would focus on the Tank. If there is not then that is a failure of the Devs to provide meaningful buffs to their core kit for the purposes of PVP or when abilities target players. If the Tank is operating as a control wizard in PVP when this game launches I will be baffled ngl lol.
100% agree, the game need a CC role with opportunity to a offensive controller or defensive/suppport (Without it the game can find itself on a lack of gameplay variety even with all customable options) https://pwi.fandom.com/wiki/Duskblade_Skill_List classic example of a offensive controller
The problem is it eliminates the dedicated roles of defensive and offensive support and combines them into one role that doesn't perform either to the same heights as they would otherwise. Having a dedicated Tank defensive support and a Controller offensive support is 100% more effective in PVP than having a "Tank" that half-asses both roles instead of whole-assing one role. Make sense?
Ideas for Tanks in PVP are to provide buffs while near the tank to increase mitigations, reflect bubbles, teammate protection links so you absorb damage for teammates while increasing their mitigations, physical knockbacks, in Gw2 there is a boon called Aegis that blocks the next incoming attack for nearby allies, Tanks could block incoming attacks for allies within a certain radius, you can even introduce taunts into PVP where the Tank is then highlighted for the enemy player and their DPS is drastically reduced toward any other target. There are other more class-centric and thematic options than gutting the core of another role and calling it a "Tank."
I dont know if they will or not, but they should since Tanks get shafted when it comes to quality PvP content. I am not even a tank player but I hear it all of the time that the tank players only use in PvP is the objective player that gets carried by the team while they carry a flag or something. CC is the perfect asset for tanks as it allows them to help in PvP fights without having to deal damage.
Fighters are more along the lines of bruisers. There is no indicator that tanks are damage pumpers. Bruisers are high damage melee with survivability.
@Dolyem
Being a bunker for an objective game mode is a game-winning strategy that is invaluable to any team comp. I don't understand how that is a negative. Staying alive and holding an objective is an underrated game-winning strategy that most players are too impatient to pull off successfully.
That said, it makes less sense to have the Tank be lesser by giving it more hard CC skills instead of more ally protection skills.
@Dolyem
Nor should tanks be damage pumpers. That is more of a glass cannon ideal IMO. Bruisers are more survivable and deal damage by outlasting the opponent, not by burst.
winning a game with strategy is all fine and good. But the primary complaint as far as I can tell is that it isnt fun to play in PvP. Sure you can win by sitting and bunkering, but its not necessarily good gameplay. Some people may very well enjoying it, but more often than not I have almost always seen tank players switch to dps builds if possible for PvP instead due to tank being boring.
No skin off of my teeth either way, I play rogue
Bruisers from my experience tend to be wrecking balls. Mid survivability, high damage, but low mobility.
Rofl of course rogue haha.
I'm used to bunkers in Eso and Gw2 where it is absolutely a role people play and it takes 3+ people to kill one guy at times, but this is also because they can heal themselves.
Our definitions are def different then.
If the tank is all survivability and no damage, bruiser is in the middle, and glass cannon is the opposite.
I would say its a bit more complex than that, but I see my description of bruiser being in the middle as well. The low mobility balances it out.
As of this second Mage and Tank can spec into CC as they wish.
You can read their skills on the wiki.
-Sol
I can't really speak too much of early WoW, all I have is second hand information.
That said, tanks in WoW did have more of what would be considered CC than tanks in games prior to that. Prior to WoW, the only real CC a tank had was in relation to positioning, they didn't have any real abilities to stop a mob from attacking or from aggro'ing. That was exclusively the domain of CC classes (the ability to just make an aggro mob not aggro for a short duration is an often overlooked CC).
The kind of CC tanks had were things like preventing a mob they are in melee combat with from facing any direction other than directly towards the tank. While it is technically CC, it is more just a tool that tanks had to assist them in tanking, it wasn't really about "battlefield control" as Steven seems to think tanks are/were.
Battlefield control was specifically the role of enchanters and other classes like them - classes L2 simply didn't have anything comparible to.
Most games post WoW split the CC up around many different classes. There was often the same over all amount of CC, but classes would get one or two. What this meant is that people just kind of ignored them - there are very few occasions where one single CC ability makes any difference, and communicating CC plans with others is not something that can really happen - if CC is what you are doing, you simply don't have the time to communicate.
That is why a single CC class is so good. You take the CC from all the other classes, hand it to one player, and they just deal with it. If they have 10 - 12 pure CC abilities that they can just throw out as needed, then the tank can assume that player has full battlefield control, and thus the tank can focus on tanking, rather than trying to control.
Adding a few minor CC effects to existing abilities, or having a few abilities that have a CC effect as a secondary component really isn't making for a CC build.
A proper full CC build would run with at least 10 full CC abilities. These are abilities that have a CC effect and nothing else. They would also have perhaps 5 or 6 abilities that have a CC effect and deal a small amount of damage as well.
This is not something that is even close to possible with the class builds we know of so far. The best we can do with what we know is a DPS or tank build with a small amount of CC on the side - which is not a CC build.
For large scale pvp I would agree. For smaller scale, I am almost positive the Trickster will have the most cc followed by the Spellsword.
Reminder: They talked in the bard showcase how they have different CC categories that will (after so many uses on a target) give the target an immunity buff to that cc type.
I think hard CC will probably be the jobs of mages, summoners, and rangers with their sleeps, roots/fears, and traps. I've played plenty of games where there was no class specifically designed around pure CC so I'm honestly not quite sure the need for it considering it is spread out among most DPS classes.
A serious group would have a tank marking which target to focus, which target comes second, and which should be CCd BEFORE the fight starts to avoid breaking any breakable CC like sleep. I think we will see a lot more of this type of gameplay once alpha 2 comes out.
I do hope they tone down the CC on all the other classes.
Are there any hints as to the direction with Summoner beyond that it's a jack of all trades?