Large Class quest-chains every 5 or 10 levels that are separate from/maybe sometimes intertwine with main story questlines. And these questlines should provide key abilities and augments for each class.
It would also be cool if some class questlines intertwined with other classes questlines at similar level, though not necessarily the same objective, just maybe in similar areas to set up potential player interactions.
Also a HUGE factor in classes relating to story is having Class specific NPC characters that are absolutely beasts at their class. There are plenty of cases in many games and stories about specific archetypes. But it would be ideal to have it clear what each characters primary archtype is, and show why they excel at it. Faction bosses in WoW are some great examples of this, though it can be significantly improved upon. Each of these key class characters can also be major plot roles in class quests and even secondary archetype quests
I will be completely honest and admit that I will likely rush all of the quests regardless, but they'd still feel cool to have. To this day I liked the fact that, in vanilla wow, rogues had to do a questline to unlock poisons, even though the quest itself was nothing special.
1) NPC heroes that have abilities that are closely correlated to specific player archetypes
2) Class trainers/organizations/buildings that are meeting places for certain archetypes. Such as temples for clerics, hunter lodges for rangers, thieves guilds for rogues, barracks for the tanks and fighters, inns for the bards, and libraries for the mages and summoners.
3) Extensive quest chains with challenges designed for specific classes. These create fond memories for players.
4) A specific backstory for how these different disciplines came into being - this is especially relevant due to the lack of magic on Sanctus. That's a good opportunity for storytelling and it would be strange if it was left unaddressed.
5) It may be a good idea to reconsider connecting clerics with the religions and temples and gods in the game. It's a bit strange to have them use a different type of magic called Divine Power and it's unrelated to the divinities that are in the story. Giving clerics some extra attention in this regard would be very effective world building.
When I think about the different archetypes and how they fit into building the world I think of their roles in the world and what they would actually be doing in it. How they might specialize in specific knowledge. Here's what I came up with.
Tank: Civilization/High Society.
When I think of Tanks I think of protectors/guards. Guards are usually in close contact with leadership/royalty/wealth. Tanks might specialize in knowledge of the people in power in any given settlement, whether its a Metropolis or a goblin camp someone is in charge there and they have guards to protect themselves.
Fighter: Creature/Enemy Knowledge
Easy right? Either through training or first hand experience if anyone truly knows what we are up against (where they live, how they fight, weaknesses) it would be the Fighters
Cleric: Gods/Demons and Cultures based on who is worshipped in a given area
Again pretty easy, If your about to walk into a human settlement that worships a god of eating flesh the Cleric will probably warn you about that.
Ranger: Beasts/Wild folk/Forestry
There are different kinds of Rangers but I basically think of them as hunters. Masters of the forest and living off the land. Taming and creating bonds with animals.
Bard: Historian/Gossip
Stories of big events, terrible times, and unfaithful husbands and wives.
Summoner: Magical Beings/Creatures / Powerful areas (Ley Lines)
Summoners would have the knowledge of all kinds of magical beings because they deal with them all the time. They might also know of areas around the world with powerful essence to help summon powerful beings.
Mage: Magic/Artifacts
If anyone was to have knowledge of how magic works, how to cast spells, and what it takes to make or identify a magical object it would be them.
Rogues: Architecture/Herbology/Black Market
Rogues need to scope out and plan their hits, they would have a good knowledge of city layouts or how many rooms are a building. Experts with herbs for good or bad purposes. Lastly knowledge of what goes on in the shadows.
I also agree Class specific quest lines are always fun.
Also as nodes progress and new areas open up it would be cool to have areas need a large amount of a certain archetype to open the way. Perhaps 20 summoners need to work together to summon a boss in order to open a door, or a number of mages work together to weaken a barrier.
2) Class trainers/organizations/buildings that are meeting places for certain archetypes. Such as temples for clerics, hunter lodges for rangers, thieves guilds for rogues, barracks for the tanks and fighters, inns for the bards, and libraries for the mages and summoners.
I like this idea, even if just for flavor, or a specific reason to go to your Archetype meeting place, e.g. obtaining Archetype exclusive reagents, or your trainer, etc.
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vahroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 8
I would like to see two things. The first thing has already been mentioned several times and is also the case in other MMOs: Give us quest lines.
The second thing is, I'd like to see archetypes based on organisations in the world. It doesn't necessarily have to be an active organisation, but one that existed before the exodus. For example, one or more mage orders could have existed somewhere on Verra in the past and in the course of the quest lines we have to visit them to find out more about the origin of the archetype.
The same can also happen with the other archetypes (Summoners had a secret society before the Exodus, Tanks used to be an order of knights, etc.).
Once you've collected all the lore fragments (and completed all the associated quests), you can be rewarded with medal clothing or something similar (i.e. nothing obligatory, as there are players who don't necessarily need this). But the quests are actually about the lore of the Order.
How would you like to see character Archetypes like the Bard be integrated into Ashes of Creation’s lore and storytelling to enrich world-building?
I've always imagined that the archetypes were indicative of what your character specialized in before going through the Divine Gateways. We're all part of an expedition, so your role in that expedition would determine your archetype:
Soldiers and mercenaries would of course be present on the expedition, as the denizens of Sanctus would expect Verra to be a very dangerous and unpredictable place. These guards would become Fighters, Tanks, and maybe some Rangers as well.
Hunters, survivalists, and explorers would also be brought to help provide for the colonists. These people would largely become Rangers once exposed to the essence.
Of course, any expedition of this size will attract unscrupulous characters -- people fleeing from their past, petty criminals among the camp followers, or even spies embedded in the expedition for one reason or another. These sorts would become Rogues.
Since Verra had been sealed off for generations, there would doubtless be historians, archeologists, and scholars looking to join in. These people would likely become Mages or Summoners, though those archetypes could just as easily be made from commoners with unusually strong attunement to the essence.
The apocalypse was caused by divine forces, and the nature of the corruption on Verra is heavily tied to the history of the gods, so holy men of all stripes would definitely be present. Chaplains, priests, monks, you name it. These would become Clerics.
Lastly, any expedition of this size will need colonists to populate the newfound settlements. Those colonists will need entertainment. Musicians, playwrights, actors, storytellers, and the like. These would become Bards.
To tie all that into the world-building, the character creation and early game experience would have to be themed around the expedition, and what role you served in it. A lot could be accomplished through flavor text during primary archetype selection, as well as the set dressing and NPC dialogue around the starting areas.
How would you like to see character Archetypes like the Bard be integrated into Ashes of Creation’s lore and storytelling to enrich world-building?
I don't like story in mmos. Lore is ok.
And while the bard was surprising in the last stream, I was not able to give a feedback about it, neither positive nor negative. I will play bard after I tried other classes first and seen other players playing their classes.
If you want to integrate bard into the lore, please integrate the tank too and give it a better lore name, maybe from the AoC specific lore.
Each class should have wandering NPC counterparts living in the world, moving from node to node, doing their stuff. Should be possible to influence those NPCs to convince them to come to your node or tavern and give some benefits. The mayor should trigger such decisions to try to attract them and citizens could help somehow by gaining reputation toward them. Social organizations are run by NPCs so these could integrate them too. Each such NPC could have a story to tell, depending on what it did on that particular server. If they die, they should respawn, just like players do. Maybe even let them accept gifts to wear some player made gear and resources to repair it.
This is my first comment on the forums, been getting very excited after watching all the videos online. So am sorry if anything I say has been said already.
I think I would like to see how the archetype is influenced by and has influenced all ranks within the world. How a bard may have started on the streets/inns playing music for somewhere to sleep all the way up to singing for a king and living in luxury. Or a fighter who started as a thug and ranked up through the army to become a praised protector.
Then festivals of music and poetry to bring all the bards together and create new stories and songs to preform. Or religious inquisitions that attempt to push beliefs upon others, be cool to see groups of clerics banding together and travelling the world. Both of these would potentially need protection against others brining in fighters/tanks.
Other MMOs may have guilds and close off certain special places to others but I feel like you want to encourage everyone to a location but for a specific archetype to be hailed and lorded over. Perhaps a church for Clerics where others could come to receive blessings. Inns or theatres for the Bards to perform to the enjoyment of all others.
For archetype storytelling, it's important for me that my character isn't considered the chosen one, or the hero. Games like modern WoW or SWTOR are guilty of this, and it just feels weird. I want to be treated as one of many heroes, one of many bards/mages/etc. The PC story should be the story of all of our characters and the difference we made together. With that context, some things I think it would be cool to see:
1. Archetype-specific quests. These would explore the meaning of being that archetype, and the rewards would be things very relevant and impactful for that archetype. Vanilla WoW's paladin quests jump to mind as an analogue.
2. Tasks for specific archetypes in story arcs. Maybe clerics need to perform a certain number of rites for the dead to help prevent them from rising. Or summoners are needed to channel something while the other archetypes protect them. Things like that.
3. Important characters who represent the archetypes. They can act as quest givers for the archetype quests and do cool things in cutscenes that players can identify with. I think having recognizable story characters is important to make the story memorable. WoW has been successful at this with characters like Jaina Proudmoore (Mage), Anduin Wrynn (Priest), Thrall (Shaman). GW2 was successful at this with the Destiny's Edge group of characters, each representing one of the professions.
I would like there to be famous lore examples of the different archetypes AND classes if possible. Names to be hailed or whispered, old legends, perhaps you'd be able to meet one or two of them, or maybe they are from times long forgotten.
I'd also like archetypes to do profession-typical things: maybe the apprentice fighters train on training dummies to hone their skills, maybe some thieves pickpocket other NPCs, there's bards playing out on the town square or in taverns, these kinda things.
I just want quests that give new abilities. Sure it's nice to get new toys as soon as you ding a new level, but I think it's much cooler to explore your archetype and grow your character by going on specific quests to unlock each ability. Ya'know, go on an adventure to discover/practice/unleash/regain/[insert flavor here] your abilities/powers.
It's best if your story is simply carved by your actions, whatever you do is your story. AoC should have let people pick their own goals and work towards achieving them.
While i do think, that people remember good and engaging quests, i do also agree, that AoC should definitely focus on what YOUR bard does. Your characters decisions could be reflected in different loot or in the way you build your bard. Dance or song focussed comes to mind. Does your character have a favourite song that he specs more into?
Mechanical choices aside, i do like to see what being a bard is all about and that could be portrayed by NPCs.
Maby there is a bard NPC that is dedicated to the story telling part of his profession. Maby he is more like an Indiana Jones kind of guy, and you constantly find him in old underground ruins, looking for old texts. He could be proficient in ancient languages, and you must help him gather texts or escape a trapped tomb.
Another NPC could be a fashion icon. They could ither tell you about marvellous magical masks they have seen, or want your help in crafting their next grandiose outfit.
Another way of enriching the world could be by bringing comedy or tragedy into the world.
Think about an upcoming rockstar NPC that wants to shred and party all the time. That could make for silly quest hooks.
A tragic character could be a bard that you find alone in the wilderness. Maby he is stranded somewhere far from home or in a wildly unfamiliar place. Therefore, he keeps himself company with a familiar melody. He would be relieved and thankful to see another person.
(PLEASE make that one an Outer Wilds reference if you plan on doing references )
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BcrypterMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
think it's crucial to establish a Verra era where each Archetype had legendary heroes, their tales passed on through generations of bards. Imagine a world filled with stories of epic feats and renowned NPCs, the most powerful or skilled of their kind. This would not only solidify the Archetypes but also give players a compelling narrative as they strive to discover the heroes of their chosen paths, iI believe this would be a magnific idea to improve the lore and storytelling in Ashes of Creation.
Why should I apologize for being a monster? has anyone ever apologized for turning me into one ? By Suzuya Juuzou
One thing I agree most with, based on what I've seen other comments discuss, is how cool it would be if Archetypes were done in a way that each would have unique experiences in the story either by unique questlines or methods in which each class can discover the lore in the game.
Since bard is specifically mentioned in the question I would like to see a way where a bard is able to create or find music linked to past events that they can either play for others to hear or even create a tangible collectibles to share in a way similar to Final Fantasy XIV with their orchestrion rolls system. As another example Mages, clerics and summoners could achieve their discoveries with ancient documents while tanks , fighters, rangers and rogues could be archaeologists. Each group working together to complete the story and hopefully encouraging the community to work together towards the final goal perhaps even encouraging players to have alts assuming that would be something that is team would like to have.
From my understanding, every archetype in the game is technically a mage, they all use powers to wield their capabilities and everyone is a superhuman on vera compared to the other world. I would love quests that play in on this.
Why does a ranger use magic the way they do? Do they have a connection to nature that allows them special insight on how to wield their capabilities compared to a cleric? What led them to embody animals and invoke aspects and hunts in their effigy?
How does a fighter internalize their mana for big smashy-smash times? Was there a culture who chose to wield magic for physical enhancement over magical evocations? How does magic affect the warriors of this world?
These are questions I think quests in game can answer and give a unique flavor to each class. But the exploration of how Vera superboosting all the returnees should also be explored. After all, how would mages act when they realize every spell they cast is X times more powerful than before.
I would love for each class to have some epically long quest chain with a class specific reward at the end. Similar to how EQ did epic weapon quests, that involved farming, some crafting/buying, and raids.
Additionally, i think it'd be neat if there was some subtle dialogue, quest option or additional lore tied into the more mainstream quests. Like you'll get the same quest regardless, but if you're a bard talking to another bard type character giving the quest- they'd drop some additional lore or maybe give a slight increase in a reward (thinking extra 2-8% gold or gem). That would incentivize groups to pair with particular classes, but not be a hindrance if they don't have a class in that group.
I’ve always found the historical quest lines in a mmorpg to be equally if not more important for character / world building than present-timeline quests . A couple people have mentioned how because these “ archetypes “ fled and didn’t fight in the final battle they were cowards : well using flashback quests show us the context of exactly why each archetype fled to change the players perspective . In the case of a specific class quest line such as bard a cool example would be if a quest involved a bard unlocking a new ability such as a specific song and then when discovering that song take us back to the route of where that song was first written and to the npc who wrote it . Perhaps in the case of the healing song it was a minstrel who doubled as a medic in the a great conflict and was singing about the tragedies of wounded warriors / war.
Equally as important to the lore is the rewards from these quests. Large class quest lines such as ( and I’m about to date myself ) the EverQuest singing short sword quest line ( epic ) were awesome because they gave rewards that were so unique and held value / a cool cosmetic or animation ( class mounts work well too ) This is also why skills make good quest rewards as well for class quests because they always hold value and make doing the quest worth it.
I think I am i the minority here. Archetypes and classes aren't factions, and should have minimal ties to lore except where it makes sense. Not every rogue has to be trained by a thieves guild, not every tank is a guard.
People should be tied to lore and people can have archetypes, that's fine. But don't try to group up every bard/summoner and say here is why your class does/did something.
Some good ways to tie archetypes to lore?
If you find a famous person of that archetype, you should be able to learn from them. Quest chains for new skills is a great idea.
People from history should have a visible archetype. I hate when NPCs can do things that are forever impossible for players to emulate.
The use of questlines does seem the right path. it is popular in this thread, it is the standard in MMOs (as much as "standards" exist...discuss), and it is a very good tool to tie in with lore which is going to be heavily quest-based.
The only thing I've not seen mentioned yet is difficulty and blocks. What I mean by that is some step in the quest line that is hard-to-find, or challenging to complete. I think some of the most memorable parts of other games have been Archetype (Class) specific questlines that either I have done for me, or that I have joined in for other players. Some hard well-tuned difficulty in some form (doesn't have to be combat) will actually enhance the story of the quest.
Admittedly "secrets in the world" hide-and-seek quests will eventually just be a search tab away. but then that offers choice to the player. Those that want to optimise, aren't reading and questing anyway, so they can speed run, and those that want the Archetype quest line journey will take it.
They should be included as suggestions, but no directly. I don't want to hear a NPC say "hello bard", or when talking about someone saying "the cleric :name_placeholder" we should be able to infer the class from lore.
"Do you want to become a bard" BAD
"Do you want to learn how to inspire your teammates through songs and ritualists dances" GOOD
When playing tabletop RPG you never say in game that you're a mage, or at least that's not your intro. You just say, hello Im Frodo, an adventurer whose specialized in arcane magic.
I would like lore to be like that, hints about what the people know, not the mechanics in game, because you break the 4th world and become aware that you're in a videogame.
Give the classes more of a distinctiveness based of the world of verra and its lore that already exists with the gods and the return to verra perspective.
For example
Cleric is a class that heals with soothing glow.
VS
Sun worshipper is a class that heals with sunrays from god and are usually called the caretakers of nature before the escape from verra and now that they are back are ready to rebuild and heal verra back to its former clory. And then you integrate everything from armor, spell VFX, spellname to something a "sun worshipper and healer of nature" would look like.
The bard and ranger are the best so far imo. The bard with its clear vision already of what they are and the ranger can be expanded upon with its bear, raven and tiger stance.
How would you like to see character Archetypes like the Bard be integrated into Ashes of Creation’s lore and storytelling to enrich world-building?
I think the class quest idea is great! To expand on this vision, I would hope the same lore/depth would go into mastering an artisan craft. Getting titles that you can showoff that you've completed difficult quests to become Vera's best weaponsmith or animal shepherd...maybe even giving people access to a recipe you can only unlock through this chain that is a dead giveaway of the hours you spent to become the best alchemist of the town.
For starters, I believe that choosing our Archetype or Class at Character Creation might not be the best approach for 'Ashes of Creation.' Considering we're originating from Sanctus, a world devoid of magic, it doesn't make much sense for us to emerge from the Divine Gates already as mages, clerics, summoners, and the like. Instead, I propose that once we step foot through the Divine Gates that we are nothing more then adventurers / settlers, and one of our initial tasks as players should be to seek out trainers who will introduce us to the essence and teach us how to harness it. These trainers would provide an overview of each Archetype, and also allow us to test them briefly before making a permanent decision on our path.
Additionally, I feel that the Cleric class should be intrinsically linked to the divine powers of the seven gods and goddesses. The class's primary mechanic, "Divine Power," naturally aligns with this concept. This connection could add depth and immersion to the role, emphasizing the divine nature of their abilities. This divine connection could be woven into their abilities, quests, and interactions with the world.
Moreover, having NPCs...
This is my favorite take so far. Rich, immersive storylines that connect your character to both the world around them as well as to the past "historical" members of your archetype goes so far in drawing many players into the world. I also would take it one step further from where you say "...Fighter might train with soldiers..." and tie it into the point you made before about unlocking world secrets - say that these aren't necessarily always driven by a quest NPC. Exploring the game and trying things should unlock secrets for both the world and for your archetype, so it becomes a large community event to try things and share with others. Players from each archetype will now have a reason to engage with each other outside of a conventional NPC-driven narrative. Games like Destiny that have implemented these things have had unprecedented community involvement and interaction when they do it right.
Funny, I've had this one my mind recently.
It think it's important to ground the classes in the world and it's setting, as what does being this class say about you as a character? What does it mechanics say?
For example, the Summoner. The creatures it summons are more then mere beasts or magic in the form of a creature. They are living, often sentient creatures with minds and personalities of their own. And they are effectively their own quest lines. A game which I think did summons well was Final Fantasy 11, where besides your initial summon, Carbuncle, each summon you had to track down and fight in their own world, as you had to prove yourself to them first before they would allow you to summon them. It about forging relationships.
So in a sense, being a summoner means being a person who is good at forging long lasting relationships. Their charismatic, a force of personality, friendly, possibly outgoing. They make friends and influence people.
I could very well see needing to complete a quest in order to unlock certain skills for your class, which itself can be used to show the player just what kind of character typically becomes this class. Going on a journey to find new summons is about one of the most enjoyable things I can imagine doing as a summoner. Learning about a class and how they fit into the world should be more then just leveling up.
Since Bard was specifically mentioned, and we know Bards are performers and storytellers with the Saga skills and whatnot, I would like to greatly expand their storytelling abilities in a non-combat way, which ties into the classical Bard fantasy.
I would like for Bards to be able to collect stories and sagas in the game, and recreate them upon request as performances. In game-mechanics terms, players interact with the Bard player in a tavern, and they get to experience stories as cut-scenes in that pop-up style that Steven mentioned. Mini-movies really, for the longest ones. Players should basically be able to view major lore cutscenes the Bards have experienced themselves from quests, dungeons, raids, or have read in books.
Don't force all players to read text to learn the lore. Force Bard players to do it, so they can show the lore to other players through cutscenes/cinematics in taverns.
It's all fluff and lore, yes, but it would also be something new and exciting for an MMORPG I think.
I want to echo what has been said here before - whatever kind of archetype lore we end up with, I really hope it won’t become a “chosen one” story. I always found that approach very strange in some other MMORPGs.
Since Bard was specifically mentioned, and we know Bards are performers and storytellers with the Saga skills and whatnot, I would like to greatly expand their storytelling abilities in a non-combat way, which ties into the classical Bard fantasy.
I would like for Bards to be able to collect stories and sagas in the game, and recreate them upon request as performances. In game-mechanics terms, players interact with the Bard player in a tavern, and they get to experience stories as cut-scenes in that pop-up style that Steven mentioned. Mini-movies really, for the longest ones. Players should basically be able to view major lore cutscenes the Bards have experienced themselves from quests, dungeons, raids, or have read in books.
Don't force all players to read text to learn the lore. Force Bard players to do it, so they can show the lore to other players through cutscenes/cinematics in taverns.
It's all fluff and lore, yes, but it would also be something new and exciting for an MMORPG I think.
Also yes to class quest-lines of course.
I like the spirit of what you're saying, but couldn't disagree more with the method.
Depriving players of agency is bad - forcing Bard players into doing specific things and/or interacting in specific ways in any given environment is directly detrimental to immersion and proper RP, for said players. Sometimes Bards just wanna go to the tavern to chill with their friends, too - even the best singers and poets need time off, you know?
A better method for handling this, IMO, would be how FFXI handles 'showing cutscenes from completed questlines'. In FFXI, there are several Bard NPCs in various logical places, some of whom handle things like changing your current Title (think of this as a type of achievement, i.e. something in your profile saying "Tortoise Toppler" if you like, killed an Adamantoise or something). Others can immersively let you re-experience cutscenes from questlines you've already completed, which they frame through dialogue as retelling your story, all Bardic-style.
These NPCs also wear Bard gear that the player can themselves obtain, which increases immersion further. Seeing either an NPC Bard in a tavern or such, strumming on their harp, or a player Bard out and about, doing Bard things, will automatically inform new players "hey - people who dress like this are Bards, neat", and it contributes to everyone blending seamlessly into the worldbuild, players and NPCs alike.
Perhaps for the idea you outlined, it might be possible to have Bard players find things such as song/tale fragments on quests, and then compile them somewhere for translating/combining/sharing with others. And then those NPC bards could tell new parts of said tales whenever the player community of Bards for a given Node has reached a certain amount of 'stuff turned in to the local Bards College' (I'm a Skyrim player, that's what the songy place is called there :P)
Perhaps for the idea you outlined, it might be possible to have Bard players find things such as song/tale fragments on quests, and then compile them somewhere for translating/combining/sharing with others. And then those NPC bards could tell new parts of said tales whenever the player community of Bards for a given Node has reached a certain amount of 'stuff turned in to the local Bards College' (I'm a Skyrim player, that's what the songy place is called there :P)
That part is the main idea yes, except I see no issues with having bard players provide the service over NPC bards. It should be optional obviously, and something they actively choose to do. Like setting up a player shop.
Comments
It would also be cool if some class questlines intertwined with other classes questlines at similar level, though not necessarily the same objective, just maybe in similar areas to set up potential player interactions.
Also a HUGE factor in classes relating to story is having Class specific NPC characters that are absolutely beasts at their class. There are plenty of cases in many games and stories about specific archetypes. But it would be ideal to have it clear what each characters primary archtype is, and show why they excel at it. Faction bosses in WoW are some great examples of this, though it can be significantly improved upon. Each of these key class characters can also be major plot roles in class quests and even secondary archetype quests
I will be completely honest and admit that I will likely rush all of the quests regardless, but they'd still feel cool to have. To this day I liked the fact that, in vanilla wow, rogues had to do a questline to unlock poisons, even though the quest itself was nothing special.
2) Class trainers/organizations/buildings that are meeting places for certain archetypes. Such as temples for clerics, hunter lodges for rangers, thieves guilds for rogues, barracks for the tanks and fighters, inns for the bards, and libraries for the mages and summoners.
3) Extensive quest chains with challenges designed for specific classes. These create fond memories for players.
4) A specific backstory for how these different disciplines came into being - this is especially relevant due to the lack of magic on Sanctus. That's a good opportunity for storytelling and it would be strange if it was left unaddressed.
5) It may be a good idea to reconsider connecting clerics with the religions and temples and gods in the game. It's a bit strange to have them use a different type of magic called Divine Power and it's unrelated to the divinities that are in the story. Giving clerics some extra attention in this regard would be very effective world building.
Tank: Civilization/High Society.
When I think of Tanks I think of protectors/guards. Guards are usually in close contact with leadership/royalty/wealth. Tanks might specialize in knowledge of the people in power in any given settlement, whether its a Metropolis or a goblin camp someone is in charge there and they have guards to protect themselves.
Fighter: Creature/Enemy Knowledge
Easy right? Either through training or first hand experience if anyone truly knows what we are up against (where they live, how they fight, weaknesses) it would be the Fighters
Cleric: Gods/Demons and Cultures based on who is worshipped in a given area
Again pretty easy, If your about to walk into a human settlement that worships a god of eating flesh the Cleric will probably warn you about that.
Ranger: Beasts/Wild folk/Forestry
There are different kinds of Rangers but I basically think of them as hunters. Masters of the forest and living off the land. Taming and creating bonds with animals.
Bard: Historian/Gossip
Stories of big events, terrible times, and unfaithful husbands and wives.
Summoner: Magical Beings/Creatures / Powerful areas (Ley Lines)
Summoners would have the knowledge of all kinds of magical beings because they deal with them all the time. They might also know of areas around the world with powerful essence to help summon powerful beings.
Mage: Magic/Artifacts
If anyone was to have knowledge of how magic works, how to cast spells, and what it takes to make or identify a magical object it would be them.
Rogues: Architecture/Herbology/Black Market
Rogues need to scope out and plan their hits, they would have a good knowledge of city layouts or how many rooms are a building. Experts with herbs for good or bad purposes. Lastly knowledge of what goes on in the shadows.
I also agree Class specific quest lines are always fun.
Also as nodes progress and new areas open up it would be cool to have areas need a large amount of a certain archetype to open the way. Perhaps 20 summoners need to work together to summon a boss in order to open a door, or a number of mages work together to weaken a barrier.
I like this idea, even if just for flavor, or a specific reason to go to your Archetype meeting place, e.g. obtaining Archetype exclusive reagents, or your trainer, etc.
The second thing is, I'd like to see archetypes based on organisations in the world. It doesn't necessarily have to be an active organisation, but one that existed before the exodus. For example, one or more mage orders could have existed somewhere on Verra in the past and in the course of the quest lines we have to visit them to find out more about the origin of the archetype.
The same can also happen with the other archetypes (Summoners had a secret society before the Exodus, Tanks used to be an order of knights, etc.).
Once you've collected all the lore fragments (and completed all the associated quests), you can be rewarded with medal clothing or something similar (i.e. nothing obligatory, as there are players who don't necessarily need this). But the quests are actually about the lore of the Order.
I've always imagined that the archetypes were indicative of what your character specialized in before going through the Divine Gateways. We're all part of an expedition, so your role in that expedition would determine your archetype:
Soldiers and mercenaries would of course be present on the expedition, as the denizens of Sanctus would expect Verra to be a very dangerous and unpredictable place. These guards would become Fighters, Tanks, and maybe some Rangers as well.
Hunters, survivalists, and explorers would also be brought to help provide for the colonists. These people would largely become Rangers once exposed to the essence.
Of course, any expedition of this size will attract unscrupulous characters -- people fleeing from their past, petty criminals among the camp followers, or even spies embedded in the expedition for one reason or another. These sorts would become Rogues.
Since Verra had been sealed off for generations, there would doubtless be historians, archeologists, and scholars looking to join in. These people would likely become Mages or Summoners, though those archetypes could just as easily be made from commoners with unusually strong attunement to the essence.
The apocalypse was caused by divine forces, and the nature of the corruption on Verra is heavily tied to the history of the gods, so holy men of all stripes would definitely be present. Chaplains, priests, monks, you name it. These would become Clerics.
Lastly, any expedition of this size will need colonists to populate the newfound settlements. Those colonists will need entertainment. Musicians, playwrights, actors, storytellers, and the like. These would become Bards.
To tie all that into the world-building, the character creation and early game experience would have to be themed around the expedition, and what role you served in it. A lot could be accomplished through flavor text during primary archetype selection, as well as the set dressing and NPC dialogue around the starting areas.
I don't like story in mmos. Lore is ok.
And while the bard was surprising in the last stream, I was not able to give a feedback about it, neither positive nor negative. I will play bard after I tried other classes first and seen other players playing their classes.
If you want to integrate bard into the lore, please integrate the tank too and give it a better lore name, maybe from the AoC specific lore.
Each class should have wandering NPC counterparts living in the world, moving from node to node, doing their stuff. Should be possible to influence those NPCs to convince them to come to your node or tavern and give some benefits. The mayor should trigger such decisions to try to attract them and citizens could help somehow by gaining reputation toward them. Social organizations are run by NPCs so these could integrate them too. Each such NPC could have a story to tell, depending on what it did on that particular server. If they die, they should respawn, just like players do. Maybe even let them accept gifts to wear some player made gear and resources to repair it.
I think I would like to see how the archetype is influenced by and has influenced all ranks within the world. How a bard may have started on the streets/inns playing music for somewhere to sleep all the way up to singing for a king and living in luxury. Or a fighter who started as a thug and ranked up through the army to become a praised protector.
Then festivals of music and poetry to bring all the bards together and create new stories and songs to preform. Or religious inquisitions that attempt to push beliefs upon others, be cool to see groups of clerics banding together and travelling the world. Both of these would potentially need protection against others brining in fighters/tanks.
Other MMOs may have guilds and close off certain special places to others but I feel like you want to encourage everyone to a location but for a specific archetype to be hailed and lorded over. Perhaps a church for Clerics where others could come to receive blessings. Inns or theatres for the Bards to perform to the enjoyment of all others.
1. Archetype-specific quests. These would explore the meaning of being that archetype, and the rewards would be things very relevant and impactful for that archetype. Vanilla WoW's paladin quests jump to mind as an analogue.
2. Tasks for specific archetypes in story arcs. Maybe clerics need to perform a certain number of rites for the dead to help prevent them from rising. Or summoners are needed to channel something while the other archetypes protect them. Things like that.
3. Important characters who represent the archetypes. They can act as quest givers for the archetype quests and do cool things in cutscenes that players can identify with. I think having recognizable story characters is important to make the story memorable. WoW has been successful at this with characters like Jaina Proudmoore (Mage), Anduin Wrynn (Priest), Thrall (Shaman). GW2 was successful at this with the Destiny's Edge group of characters, each representing one of the professions.
I'd also like archetypes to do profession-typical things: maybe the apprentice fighters train on training dummies to hone their skills, maybe some thieves pickpocket other NPCs, there's bards playing out on the town square or in taverns, these kinda things.
While i do think, that people remember good and engaging quests, i do also agree, that AoC should definitely focus on what YOUR bard does. Your characters decisions could be reflected in different loot or in the way you build your bard. Dance or song focussed comes to mind. Does your character have a favourite song that he specs more into?
Mechanical choices aside, i do like to see what being a bard is all about and that could be portrayed by NPCs.
Maby there is a bard NPC that is dedicated to the story telling part of his profession. Maby he is more like an Indiana Jones kind of guy, and you constantly find him in old underground ruins, looking for old texts. He could be proficient in ancient languages, and you must help him gather texts or escape a trapped tomb.
Another NPC could be a fashion icon. They could ither tell you about marvellous magical masks they have seen, or want your help in crafting their next grandiose outfit.
Another way of enriching the world could be by bringing comedy or tragedy into the world.
Think about an upcoming rockstar NPC that wants to shred and party all the time. That could make for silly quest hooks.
A tragic character could be a bard that you find alone in the wilderness. Maby he is stranded somewhere far from home or in a wildly unfamiliar place. Therefore, he keeps himself company with a familiar melody. He would be relieved and thankful to see another person.
(PLEASE make that one an Outer Wilds reference if you plan on doing references
Since bard is specifically mentioned in the question I would like to see a way where a bard is able to create or find music linked to past events that they can either play for others to hear or even create a tangible collectibles to share in a way similar to Final Fantasy XIV with their orchestrion rolls system. As another example Mages, clerics and summoners could achieve their discoveries with ancient documents while tanks , fighters, rangers and rogues could be archaeologists. Each group working together to complete the story and hopefully encouraging the community to work together towards the final goal perhaps even encouraging players to have alts assuming that would be something that is team would like to have.
Why does a ranger use magic the way they do? Do they have a connection to nature that allows them special insight on how to wield their capabilities compared to a cleric? What led them to embody animals and invoke aspects and hunts in their effigy?
How does a fighter internalize their mana for big smashy-smash times? Was there a culture who chose to wield magic for physical enhancement over magical evocations? How does magic affect the warriors of this world?
These are questions I think quests in game can answer and give a unique flavor to each class. But the exploration of how Vera superboosting all the returnees should also be explored. After all, how would mages act when they realize every spell they cast is X times more powerful than before.
Additionally, i think it'd be neat if there was some subtle dialogue, quest option or additional lore tied into the more mainstream quests. Like you'll get the same quest regardless, but if you're a bard talking to another bard type character giving the quest- they'd drop some additional lore or maybe give a slight increase in a reward (thinking extra 2-8% gold or gem). That would incentivize groups to pair with particular classes, but not be a hindrance if they don't have a class in that group.
-Doakland
Equally as important to the lore is the rewards from these quests. Large class quest lines such as ( and I’m about to date myself ) the EverQuest singing short sword quest line ( epic ) were awesome because they gave rewards that were so unique and held value / a cool cosmetic or animation ( class mounts work well too ) This is also why skills make good quest rewards as well for class quests because they always hold value and make doing the quest worth it.
People should be tied to lore and people can have archetypes, that's fine. But don't try to group up every bard/summoner and say here is why your class does/did something.
Some good ways to tie archetypes to lore?
If you find a famous person of that archetype, you should be able to learn from them. Quest chains for new skills is a great idea.
People from history should have a visible archetype. I hate when NPCs can do things that are forever impossible for players to emulate.
The only thing I've not seen mentioned yet is difficulty and blocks. What I mean by that is some step in the quest line that is hard-to-find, or challenging to complete. I think some of the most memorable parts of other games have been Archetype (Class) specific questlines that either I have done for me, or that I have joined in for other players. Some hard well-tuned difficulty in some form (doesn't have to be combat) will actually enhance the story of the quest.
Admittedly "secrets in the world" hide-and-seek quests will eventually just be a search tab away. but then that offers choice to the player. Those that want to optimise, aren't reading and questing anyway, so they can speed run, and those that want the Archetype quest line journey will take it.
"Do you want to become a bard" BAD
"Do you want to learn how to inspire your teammates through songs and ritualists dances" GOOD
When playing tabletop RPG you never say in game that you're a mage, or at least that's not your intro. You just say, hello Im Frodo, an adventurer whose specialized in arcane magic.
I would like lore to be like that, hints about what the people know, not the mechanics in game, because you break the 4th world and become aware that you're in a videogame.
For example
Cleric is a class that heals with soothing glow.
VS
Sun worshipper is a class that heals with sunrays from god and are usually called the caretakers of nature before the escape from verra and now that they are back are ready to rebuild and heal verra back to its former clory. And then you integrate everything from armor, spell VFX, spellname to something a "sun worshipper and healer of nature" would look like.
The bard and ranger are the best so far imo. The bard with its clear vision already of what they are and the ranger can be expanded upon with its bear, raven and tiger stance.
I think the class quest idea is great! To expand on this vision, I would hope the same lore/depth would go into mastering an artisan craft. Getting titles that you can showoff that you've completed difficult quests to become Vera's best weaponsmith or animal shepherd...maybe even giving people access to a recipe you can only unlock through this chain that is a dead giveaway of the hours you spent to become the best alchemist of the town.
This is my favorite take so far. Rich, immersive storylines that connect your character to both the world around them as well as to the past "historical" members of your archetype goes so far in drawing many players into the world. I also would take it one step further from where you say "...Fighter might train with soldiers..." and tie it into the point you made before about unlocking world secrets - say that these aren't necessarily always driven by a quest NPC. Exploring the game and trying things should unlock secrets for both the world and for your archetype, so it becomes a large community event to try things and share with others. Players from each archetype will now have a reason to engage with each other outside of a conventional NPC-driven narrative. Games like Destiny that have implemented these things have had unprecedented community involvement and interaction when they do it right.
It think it's important to ground the classes in the world and it's setting, as what does being this class say about you as a character? What does it mechanics say?
For example, the Summoner. The creatures it summons are more then mere beasts or magic in the form of a creature. They are living, often sentient creatures with minds and personalities of their own. And they are effectively their own quest lines. A game which I think did summons well was Final Fantasy 11, where besides your initial summon, Carbuncle, each summon you had to track down and fight in their own world, as you had to prove yourself to them first before they would allow you to summon them. It about forging relationships.
So in a sense, being a summoner means being a person who is good at forging long lasting relationships. Their charismatic, a force of personality, friendly, possibly outgoing. They make friends and influence people.
I could very well see needing to complete a quest in order to unlock certain skills for your class, which itself can be used to show the player just what kind of character typically becomes this class. Going on a journey to find new summons is about one of the most enjoyable things I can imagine doing as a summoner. Learning about a class and how they fit into the world should be more then just leveling up.
I would like for Bards to be able to collect stories and sagas in the game, and recreate them upon request as performances. In game-mechanics terms, players interact with the Bard player in a tavern, and they get to experience stories as cut-scenes in that pop-up style that Steven mentioned. Mini-movies really, for the longest ones. Players should basically be able to view major lore cutscenes the Bards have experienced themselves from quests, dungeons, raids, or have read in books.
Don't force all players to read text to learn the lore. Force Bard players to do it, so they can show the lore to other players through cutscenes/cinematics in taverns.
It's all fluff and lore, yes, but it would also be something new and exciting for an MMORPG I think.
Also yes to class quest-lines of course.
I like the spirit of what you're saying, but couldn't disagree more with the method.
Depriving players of agency is bad - forcing Bard players into doing specific things and/or interacting in specific ways in any given environment is directly detrimental to immersion and proper RP, for said players. Sometimes Bards just wanna go to the tavern to chill with their friends, too - even the best singers and poets need time off, you know?
A better method for handling this, IMO, would be how FFXI handles 'showing cutscenes from completed questlines'. In FFXI, there are several Bard NPCs in various logical places, some of whom handle things like changing your current Title (think of this as a type of achievement, i.e. something in your profile saying "Tortoise Toppler" if you like, killed an Adamantoise or something). Others can immersively let you re-experience cutscenes from questlines you've already completed, which they frame through dialogue as retelling your story, all Bardic-style.
These NPCs also wear Bard gear that the player can themselves obtain, which increases immersion further. Seeing either an NPC Bard in a tavern or such, strumming on their harp, or a player Bard out and about, doing Bard things, will automatically inform new players "hey - people who dress like this are Bards, neat", and it contributes to everyone blending seamlessly into the worldbuild, players and NPCs alike.
Perhaps for the idea you outlined, it might be possible to have Bard players find things such as song/tale fragments on quests, and then compile them somewhere for translating/combining/sharing with others. And then those NPC bards could tell new parts of said tales whenever the player community of Bards for a given Node has reached a certain amount of 'stuff turned in to the local Bards College' (I'm a Skyrim player, that's what the songy place is called there :P)
That part is the main idea yes, except I see no issues with having bard players provide the service over NPC bards. It should be optional obviously, and something they actively choose to do. Like setting up a player shop.