Weapons seem redundant beyond combat style

Songcaller

Yeah I understand not all Mace's need to be the same. The substance I refer to specifically is how much can stat blocks be changed? What stats are on said weapon schematics at first blush and which stats have been modified to make a mace that neither works for physical, magical or even hybrid? 😇

Azherae

Well, would you like approximately 300 examples?

I'm assuming that just basic proof of concept is enough.

For anyone who takes a look at that, just note that not every item has the same options for Traits, even within a gear type or rarity tier

That is, there are Epic Chest Pieces that have Melee Evasion as an option for Traits, and others that lack it. If we apply that to this conversation, then there's no concern.

Songcaller

Hmm. I thought I'd be redirected to all the armour sets put in for a2 on the wiki but I was sent to TnL. I've read the current list of examples but the examples do not state how the items were created only if they are from vendor or crafter.

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]


The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

Songcaller

SWG was very customisable and one of the best crafting systems pre combat upgrade 2. It was the SWG references that got me to invest. I imagine Steven and the team will not kill ashes in the same way Sony killed SWG.

Azherae

Otr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]


The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

I'll try to outline it briefly.

I'll reference the TL stuff because it's a really solid point, and my data indicates that you prefer those.

I mentioned the Heavenly Arbiter Attire, I'm not going to link it because I don't want to confuse anyone with abstractions.

It is made from three components and a Recipe. the three components are 'Thread, Magic Powder, and Magic Crystal.

It can have one of the following Traits when you craft it (it can fit 3 traits total, but that doesn't matter to this example):
Magic Endurance
Magic Evasion
Mana Regen
Max Mana
Melee Endurance
Melee Evasion

It also has some base stats that it always has because it is Heavenly Arbiter Attire. So there's the stats that are from what it is, and the stats that are RNG when crafted.

In a game like Ashes or SWG, the second set of stats would not need to be RNG.

You might have the choice of using 'Light Mana Channeling Thread', 'Tough Reinforced Thread', or just normal Thread.

Imagine that using Light Mana Channeling Thread would cause the trait of the completed gear to have the Max Mana trait, and using Tough Reinforced Thread would cause it to have Melee Endurance trait.

The base stats of Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still be there, and be the same every time.

To me, this isn't complex, but for some people, it's complex.

You could make it more complex by having a Crafter build up experience with making Heavenly Arbiter Attire, for example 'experience in adding a Trait'. For example, if the crafter could not control the outcome perfectly even if they used Light Mana Channeling Thread, and they had a 50/50 chance of getting either Max Mana or Mana Regen, maybe that Crafter could have a skill or experience which allows them to choose or change the chances.

But the Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still only have the same six Trait options (for example, there is no Max Health option on it, and there are no materials used to construct it that could give Max Health). And whatever its base stats or abilities are would be the same.

Caeryl

‘Can use’ does not mean it’s going to be a good choice for your class. That seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the intro post and in these later posts too.

A ranger can equip a spell book, but they won’t make good use of it because it doesn’t synergize with a ranger’s skill set.

A tank could pick up DW daggers but then they don’t have strong defenses anymore.

As for upgrading, literally why would you not want better stats on gear that synergies well with your class and preferred play style? It’s straight vertical power when you’ve already hit the horizontal power/comfort you prefer.

Otr

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

I keep seeing weapons and accessories being shown. There is no reason to my knowledge why all armour and accessories can be enchanted to safe level +5 and I bet such an approach would reach soft cap long before the weapon has a chance.

Is there any reason for you to believe that literally every item type can have phys or mage power stat on it?

I'd personally hope that is NOT the case, for the exact reason you stated. If any item can be given any stat - items have no inherent value. I sure as fuck hope that is not the case, cause what's the point of farming for shit if you can just craft the most basic item with the stat you want and then just enchant it higher. That'd be waaaaay too stupid of a design.

Not sure how to respond. If we cam use any weapon we need the ability to select the best stats for the build on our toons. I still believe hybrid will suck for the reasons you mentioned and on top of that crofters can not change all stats on a piece of gear. The further I go down the rabbit whole the more I feel I've been conned out of 3000 quid of packages and cosmetics because the more that is revealed the more mirroring I am seeing.

Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities and stats on gear.[31][32]

Crafters will be able to 'rejigger' stat blocks; and there will be a couple of other ways to move things around to create both the look and the stat block that you're looking for. It's not always going to be easy. There will be a lot of challenges involved with that. But the goal is to give you guys the option to customize your gear the way you want them to be.[31] – Jeffrey Bard

Master crafters will be able to influence several (but not all) stats on their crafted items.[31][33]
Stats on crafted items will vary based on the item's rarity.[34]
There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[35][31]


The most recent link is from 2011
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkWLLLOlm2E&t=3178s

Yes, all this stuff is basically trivial, if you build it up from the bottom.

For example, TL's installed basis is able to go upwards a full five steps of complexity over the next 2 years if they want it to, and easily match what Ashes is offering. The question is almost always if the playerbase will want that, and that's pretty much what this thread is about.

"We haven't seen the same type of base from Ashes yet as we've seen in TL."

But we don't need to care about that, it's easy to do. The 'confusing' part, for someone like OP, is 'why isn't it already done when it's so easy to do?' and getting a bit 'agitated' because of it.

No big deal though, things are working.

AoC lists as inspiration
Star Wars Galaxies with its crafting systems.[1]

I've not played it but I've seen SWG mentioned before as a good example. Was it complex?

I have no good answer regarding where complexity should be to allow or prevent easy stat adjustments. NPCs seem to do the crafting after we do it once and those quotes are somewhat old. Maybe stats adjustment is similar and finding freeholds and crafting stations in nodes and transporting materials will be difficult.

I'll try to outline it briefly.

I'll reference the TL stuff because it's a really solid point, and my data indicates that you prefer those.

I mentioned the Heavenly Arbiter Attire, I'm not going to link it because I don't want to confuse anyone with abstractions.

It is made from three components and a Recipe. the three components are 'Thread, Magic Powder, and Magic Crystal.

It can have one of the following Traits when you craft it (it can fit 3 traits total, but that doesn't matter to this example):
Magic Endurance
Magic Evasion
Mana Regen
Max Mana
Melee Endurance
Melee Evasion

It also has some base stats that it always has because it is Heavenly Arbiter Attire. So there's the stats that are from what it is, and the stats that are RNG when crafted.

In a game like Ashes or SWG, the second set of stats would not need to be RNG.

You might have the choice of using 'Light Mana Channeling Thread', 'Tough Reinforced Thread', or just normal Thread.

Imagine that using Light Mana Channeling Thread would cause the trait of the completed gear to have the Max Mana trait, and using Tough Reinforced Thread would cause it to have Melee Endurance trait.

The base stats of Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still be there, and be the same every time.

To me, this isn't complex, but for some people, it's complex.

You could make it more complex by having a Crafter build up experience with making Heavenly Arbiter Attire, for example 'experience in adding a Trait'. For example, if the crafter could not control the outcome perfectly even if they used Light Mana Channeling Thread, and they had a 50/50 chance of getting either Max Mana or Mana Regen, maybe that Crafter could have a skill or experience which allows them to choose or change the chances.

But the Heavenly Arbiter Attire would still only have the same six Trait options (for example, there is no Max Health option on it, and there are no materials used to construct it that could give Max Health). And whatever its base stats or abilities are would be the same.

Thanks for the details.
This sounds similar to Guild Wars 2. They had 3 final components which players had to craft from different resources
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Draconic_Coat#itemct29

I don't like it.

What I would like to is the crafter to not be ready to craft just because he leveled up some skills but a preparation to be needed:
- buffs from other players
- buffs from guild hall
- equipping special gear or getting attuned to it or some complex process (not a simple mouse click)
- the intermediate recipes should not have a clear pattern (like all ending up with 3 components) but multiple intermediate items which you should have them prepared just in case somebody comes and you need them. Like having to keep and organize a lot of junk, like farmers care for their crops.
- the crafting itself should be manual not just give ingredients to an NPC and should involve observing processes, like estimating temperature observing colors, sounds...
- after crafting you should again work to become fit for combat, the reverse of the 3rd step above
If somebody pays you to craft something, they should be happy they are not in your place.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Eventually he mentions active skills too

U rite. I misheard the "that come with those things" part.

Though considering that these active abilties will somehow not influence the gameplay of your archetype, I'm not sure what kind of impact can those even have. Like, even a simple "give this weapon an elemental atk attribute for 30s" active ability would immediately introduce some changes to how you might approach your entire build and gameplay.

Azherae

Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Eventually he mentions active skills too

U rite. I misheard the "that come with those things" part.

Though considering that these active abilties will somehow not influence the gameplay of your archetype, I'm not sure what kind of impact can those even have. Like, even a simple "give this weapon an elemental atk attribute for 30s" active ability would immediately introduce some changes to how you might approach your entire build and gameplay.

Still, it's not uncommon, I feel like TL has gear that has either 'the equivalent of entire active skills' or 'Augments to skills that are so meaningful that they might as well be new active Skills'.

It's semi-popular in ARPGs like Diablo and POE as well, so I'm not surprised that Intrepid is considering it too.

It's just one more cell in the balance spreadsheet, after all, and in a weapon-agnostic game where you have to make all the animations anyway, no change in effort.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Still, it's not uncommon, I feel like TL has gear that has either 'the equivalent of entire active skills' or 'Augments to skills that are so meaningful that they might as well be new active Skills'.

But that's my point though. Steven wants them to somehow NOT be as impactful as that, while supposedly still warranting their high-end requirements of gear pieces.

I'm used to both active and "such a strong effect that it changes your gameplay" passive skills on items, thanks to L2's augmentation system and its variously "broken" applications on diferent servers.

But that system has also let me experience the completely useless side of effects as well. And I'm just curious how will Intrepid walk the line between the two, while trying not to design something that might as well change an entire's archetype gameplay approach.

Aszkalon

Songcaller wrote: »

Weapons are redundant because you do not need a good weapon.

Oh come on now ... ... 😁 ... ... we all know that THIS is not true ... ... ... ...

No matter how good, skillful - and effective you skill your - well - "Skilltree/s",
you will ALWAYS be better with a Weapon of a clearly higher Degree. No matter how it is to come by a good Weapon.

With a rare or legendary kind of Weapon, you will always outperform your own Max-Damage that you make with a average or just little bit better/enchanted Weapon.

Songcaller

Aszkalon wrote: »

Songcaller wrote: »

Weapons are redundant because you do not need a good weapon.

Oh come on now ... ... 😁 ... ... we all know that THIS is not true ... ... ... ...

No matter how good, skillful - and effective you skill your - well - "Skilltree/s",
you will ALWAYS be better with a Weapon of a clearly higher Degree. No matter how it is to come by a good Weapon.

With a rare or legendary kind of Weapon, you will always outperform your own Max-Damage that you make with a average or just little bit better/enchanted Weapon.

Err no. You still have to enchant legendaries. Make no mistake. I will have legendry weapons but do I need to enchant said weapon? No not at all.

FallenPaladin

There has been alot of focus on everything inherent about an mmo except weapon(s) and armor(s) algorithms tbph (unless I missed something). I have always been a fan of dungeons and dragons and the way they handle combat, all the numbers are /calculable/ and follow very specific systems that usually don't faulter if you have a DM who knows what he/she is doing. What is the system for AoC in regard to weapon power? Remember there are different elements involved when it comes to weapons - attack, damage, crits, enhancements (active and passive), modifiers under different conditions, ability to sunder, and sometimes hitpoints and sentience. These are just a few things to consider, if AoC can at least implement these conditions on their weapons, then the difference between a legendary and common weapon would be insurmountable. So far we haven't seen much focus on this (at least I haven't, but in part it is my fault for following on and off, even though I do have an alpha 2 key). I think the OP has a valid argument because there is lack of content on weapons released in their livestreams each month, and I, for one, would love to see some holy / unholy avengers (the equivalence of) in Verra. If not, every other sword and armor is the same, the only difference would be cosmetic.

Songcaller

DnD is a strange beast because yes, you can have multiple damage sources calculated from a weapon but really the weapons give effects more than higher damage. It also depends if you dual wield or not. Hence why I've stated the weapons seem redundant right now because we have not been shown a unique legendary weapon or a legendary set of armour yet. Thus, I can not gauge which direction will be taken. It is also wise to state I feel the multiple damage sources calculated from weapon might not be true in ashes because of the horizontal enchantments which can change a weapon's damage type. This hints at status effects more than power. Don't be fooled though. Status effects can produce more damage across the board than a +10 boost to weapon damage.