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Weapons seem redundant beyond combat style

24

Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    Not sure if you are including me when you are saying "people" but assuming you are:

    The point of talking about skills and mana is that player damage can come from different sources like:
    • Weapon attacks (press Q)
    • Skills
    • Passive effects

    If mana runs out by only relying on skills, that means player will inevitably be required to use weapon attacks and passives. Weapon attacks only require 2 things: The target being in range and the time to attack. Players do not need mana to perform weapon attacks. A mage can apply their elemental stacks with weapon attacks rather than spending mana on abilities that build it up, which ensures more mana for big combo spells - this makes weapon attacks a viable choice especially in longer battles against elite mobs or drawn out battles with little resting time like a siege.

    Does that mean weapons need sufficient damage stats to hit harder with increased quality? Yes.
    Is that already the case? Dunno, I would guess to some rudimental degree it is.
    Is it a system already done? Most likely not.

    "I still don't see the point in boosting a weapon."
    Simple: Higher weapon damage and additional stats.
    Again the current soft cap is a lot of things, but not balanced. For now that may mean that stat boosts on weapons are pointless, but they wont remain that way.

    How any of that makes the combat design team not understand combat at all really is beyond me.

    While I can't say that it's a fair or 'concrete' way of looking at it, for some people, myself included, there's a specific order that you need to do certain design aspects in, to see success and not just muddy chaos.

    Certain changes we've seen from one state to another, in the past, implies to people like me that these designs are not being done in any of the 'correct' sequence/orders that would lead to a good combat experience.

    Not gonna claim that 'thinking it can only be done well X way' is right, but will definitely claim that 'seeing certain changes implies that they're not doing it in Y way'. If you're a person who believes in certain 'best practices' for design of certain things, signs that those aren't being followed could lead to OP's conclusion.

    Hell, even the 'we're just gonna do a bit of something for now and balance it later when we have time' is a red flag for some.

    "Oh we finally had to turn on the CC Diminishing Returns lol" gets an 'excuse me what?' from me. That said, it's probably better not to get caught up in our armchair dev opinions, just assume it's people blowing off steam.

    The real point of this thread comes down to this:
    "Why should I feel attached to, or boost, any specific weapon or even weapon type?" with the implication that one of two things is likely to be true in the end:

    Either Legendary gear will be very similar with lots of stat blocks and lots to pay attention to in tiny ways, meaning the differences between using them (other than skilltree) will be small (and this has some serious issues depending on how the Physical Power calculation for skills is done, in ways that are likely to be extremely dissatisfying for certain Fighters like George and the ones I know)...

    Or despite saying we can use every weapon, there will be much less flexibility than the game claims and certain choices will be noob traps.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    It goes to show my original theory crafting was sound. I believed legendary gear would have 5 stat additions but since I've seen epic tier has 5 stat additions then legendary must have an extra addition. I can't find an image breakdown of armour on the wiki to compare with the Maces though.

    The concerns were raised after more mana regeneration skills were added. If these Regens stack then you would never touch a basic attack unless all c/d are active. If strength gives attack power then I do not see the need to boost the weapon at all. Primary stat is fine, secondary stat is fine and tertiary stat is fine. Yes, it might be nice to bolster white damage but if you resort to white damage in a duel you have already lost.

    I actually don't particularly care either way in truth. Yet, I state the combat team lack cohesion due to pax 2017 quick time combat changed to action combat in apoc then to hybrid in MMO. A1 was a clear demarcation from trinity due to two classes being underpowered and 1 class being able to solo 10 or more people.

    I never used basic attacks in a1 either. If your sole retort is basic attacks I feel we will never agree. The reason is simple. To resort to basic attacks after blowing all mana means synergies will not work. Lost synergies means the team no longer unites the effort to defeat the encounter. Lack of control, lack of dps and lack of resources.

    I have never built groups and teams in such a way. Good luck blowing all mana and relying on white damage in a contested scenario. Those who know how to manage mana and weave will annihilate the white damage dealers.

    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    While I can't say that it's a fair or 'concrete' way of looking at it, for some people, myself included, there's a specific order that you need to do certain design aspects in, to see success and not just muddy chaos.

    Certain changes we've seen from one state to another, in the past, implies to people like me that these designs are not being done in any of the 'correct' sequence/orders that would lead to a good combat experience.

    Not gonna claim that 'thinking it can only be done well X way' is right, but will definitely claim that 'seeing certain changes implies that they're not doing it in Y way'. If you're a person who believes in certain 'best practices' for design of certain things, signs that those aren't being followed could lead to OP's conclusion.

    Hell, even the 'we're just gonna do a bit of something for now and balance it later when we have time' is a red flag for some.

    Hey, I agree on this part I'm not sure if this is the "best" way to develop it either. But that is not the thing I disagreed on with Songcaller, its the "these guys have no clue" part where I get sceptical.
    I'm a doing a bit of game design in the form of TTRPGs myself with its own set of rules, but what I can say for sure is that balancing would have been easier if I set up the underlying number system before starting to outline all the systems that would need this system to be in place.

    "Oh we finally had to turn on the CC Diminishing Returns lol" gets an 'excuse me what?' from me. That said, it's probably better not to get caught up in our armchair dev opinions, just assume it's people blowing off steam.

    Yeah, I think it's indeed just blowing off steam, but it makes me wonder whether "blowing off steam" has to be insulting an entire development team. This is the good old intolerance for trial-and-error despite this being EXACTLY the time where they can still effort it and despite the fact that trial-and-error is the single best learning strategy we have. Since we are at strong statements: I think the toxic attitude and outright hostily towards trial-and-error is what ruined so of gaming in the first place because people instantly started to panic and screech as soon as anything wasn't perfect even in as early stages as the Alpha Stage. If you punish those who make efforts in trying something new (new concepts or just new employees) you will end up with the non-offensive, mindless BS like current World Of Boredcraft.

    Which is exactly why I very much dislike this "these people have no clue" panic making. You can raise red flags without poking the pole in the eyes of those who are making the effort to at least try.

    The real point of this thread comes down to this:
    "Why should I feel attached to, or boost, any specific weapon or even weapon type?" with the implication that one of two things is likely to be true in the end:

    Either Legendary gear will be very similar with lots of stat blocks and lots to pay attention to in tiny ways, meaning the differences between using them (other than skilltree) will be small (and this has some serious issues depending on how the Physical Power calculation for skills is done, in ways that are likely to be extremely dissatisfying for certain Fighters like George and the ones I know)...

    Or despite saying we can use every weapon, there will be much less flexibility than the game claims and certain choices will be noob traps.

    That in my opinion is something we will find out during the Alpha.

    My HOPE would be that the base damage stats of weapons will be significant enough that by effectively using your basic weapon attacks between skills you can do a significant amount of damage (I'm just going to ballpark this and say ~25-35% of all combat damage) or enable significantly higher damage (e.g. a mage who uses weapon attacks effectively would end up dealing up to 10-20% more damage with their skills - Again just ballparking).

    A legendary weapon could be something that could then offer either increases of skill abilities or extra abilties to weapon attacks (e.g. add a promotable debuff or so) increasing not only ones own combat strength but of the group.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Songcaller and to address your side too...

    You honestly don't have any basis for the concept of how to even raise Strength 'instead of' boosting the weapon.

    Ashes can simply 'not give you any real ways to do that' if they choose.

    I understand the concern based on the combination of this, and their approach to stat/combat design 'flexibility', but it's not 'evidence', so bringing it up to other people with predictions is still just speculation to them.

    And if you are concerned that the issue is that your predictions are right, I'm sure you know that if they are, it's already almost too late.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I've noticed some pieces of equipment gives access to actual skills rather than stats too. Much akin to BG3. I think it is an interesting facet though whether we get to augment a skill given from a chest piece (eg) would be possible. It doesn't even stipulate a class restriction so a tank could get polymorph for example.

    I do not bash the foundations or the synergies my old messages were used though I do admit the calculations accessible on paper do not make sense. Though I realise the devs will not answer the questions. The first port of call in a2 will be to work out what 'k' is and then create spreadsheets to work out how the calculation only reached 40 odd.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • P0GG0P0GG0 Member, Alpha Two
    being able to use any weapons just because you like the appearance is not a bad concept.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    If I'm able to backstab someone with a spellbook as a rogue, that's just silly.

    I'd like to do that with dual wielded cushions.
    made from stone
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Well, the power stat doesn't come directly from the main attribute, so the weapon's own stat values are still really important.
    jwbe8risq7f7.png
    The same was true in the bard showcase.
    hhz7vkpai8d8.png
    61int, but the rating is at 234.

    And considering that in both cases the characters were wearing the same type of jewels from this set
    mfx888wiv6mc.png
    There's 2 possibilities:
    • difference between magic and physic weapons is huge (i.e. 334phys power vs 39 phys power)
    • Steven went out of his way to give himself super precise jewels with magic atk power for the bard showcase, in order to boost his m.a.p.

    To me this implies that difference between weapons is big enough to not make them redundant. And this would also imply that vertical increase of the weapon's main attacking stat would also mean only a 1/10 (even slightly less) of that increase in pure dmg output, cause the "raiting" part of the attack power equation is always 1/10ed to make the numbers smaller.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    P0GG0 wrote: »
    being able to use any weapons just because you like the appearance is not a bad concept.

    Right. Yes to everything. That works.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Well, the power stat doesn't come directly from the main attribute, so the weapon's own stat values are still really important.
    jwbe8risq7f7.png
    The same was true in the bard showcase.
    hhz7vkpai8d8.png
    61int, but the rating is at 234.

    And considering that in both cases the characters were wearing the same type of jewels from this set
    mfx888wiv6mc.png
    There's 2 possibilities:
    • difference between magic and physic weapons is huge (i.e. 334phys power vs 39 phys power)
    • Steven went out of his way to give himself super precise jewels with magic atk power for the bard showcase, in order to boost his m.a.p.

    To me this implies that difference between weapons is big enough to not make them redundant. And this would also imply that vertical increase of the weapon's main attacking stat would also mean only a 1/10 (even slightly less) of that increase in pure dmg output, cause the "raiting" part of the attack power equation is always 1/10ed to make the numbers smaller.

    It seems to be 8ths rather than 10ths. Though it is not explicit. That is before k is applied. If k = 2 then it would be 16ths but 16ths can be refactored to 8ths once again...
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    It seems to be 8ths rather than 10ths. Though it is not explicit. That is before k is applied. If k = 2 then it would be 16ths but 16ths can be refactored to 8ths once again...
    Where are you seeing 8th? K seems to be the 0.1 multiplier in that equation. And in the bard showcase it is applied automatically. At least on the attack power side of things. Other stats do seem to have a slightly different multiplier.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    On my calculator but I only calculated the formula in the power dynamic screenshot. The multiplier hasn't been applied in those two setup screenshot you showed. Though the setup screenshots show a reversal of trends compared to the power screenshot we both used. Also, I randomly plucked 2 out of thin air for 'k'. 🤔

    Edit: Eureka moment. It appears the rating is divided by the base then the base is added on top. Hence why you say 10th and I say 8th. 😆
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Edit: Eureka moment. It appears the rating is divided by the base then the base is added on top. Hence why you say 10th and I say 8th. 😆
    The physical power equation is shown in full in the fighter screenshot. It's "base + rating * K". That means that rating is multiplied by 0.1 and then added to the base. K = 0.1 :) The literal same is done in the bard's screenshot. 10 Base, 234 is multiplied by 0.1 and then added to the base to create the total of 33.4.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    K isn't 0.1 in the power stat calculation. Therefore, the information needs updating on the wiki because the old calculation is what I stated but the 0.1 in the new calculations (latest iteration) is also correct. 👌
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    K isn't 0.1 in the power stat calculation. Therefore, the information needs updating on the wiki because the old calculation is what I stated but the 0.1 in the new calculations (latest iteration) is also correct. 👌
    Can you point me to how (43.4 - 10):334 is not 0.1?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Yeah, I believe the weapons are redundant because of the merge between inherent stats and the emergent stats.

    Physical_Power_Stat_Description.png

    There does not seem to be a multiplier on basic damage, only on critical damage. The base stat here could be weapon damage, however, let's say 80 was max strength and the basic sword is 8, then it would be easier to get to 80 through the other slots than try to get a legendary weapon to +15 enchantment to reach 80 alone. The reason is manifold because you could max 3, 4 or 5 stats without touching the level 1 sword.

    It's getting confusing. The power calculation that is not 0.1 for k is in the message I just quoted. The power calc for fighter is 0.1 and the bard is also 0.1 in the calculations which is why I stated wiki needs updating - or, we can just keep the calculations between those who read/respond on the thread for top secret use. 😉
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    It's getting confusing.
    It's getting confusing cause I can't understand why you're saying K is not 0.1, when the screenshot you used is the same thing I linked the full pic of.

    And in that screenshot K is 0.1. Bard's version is simply a later iteration with the equation embedded into the numbers already (i.e. they auto-equal the 234 rating into a 23.4 one).

    Literally nothing changed in how the calculation works. Only the visual presentation to the player changed.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes. K is not 0.1. It is rating divided by base plus base. That is why if I use 8 as base its an 8th and nor a 10th. Try the fighter calc on a calculator - my calc gets 42.4 at base of 8 or 44.4 at base of 10 yet the answer in the screenshot is 43.4. 🤔
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    Physical_Power_Stat_Description.png
    (I don't see any screenshot above :( just a file name)

    K is 10% in these screenshots.
    I would say it is a balancing constant.

    But wiki also tells us that
    "Stats can be improved based on gear, tattoos, and other enhancements, such as socketed items.[13]"

    if each comes with 10% of something, having them can add 30% more which is not far from the 40%

    "Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a players overall power in the game.[19]"
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Yes. K is not 0.1. It is rating divided by base plus base. That is why if I use 8 as base its an 8th and nor a 10th. Try the fighter calc on a calculator - my calc gets 42.4 at base of 8 or 44.4 at base of 10 yet the answer in the screenshot is 43.4. 🤔
    Please, just look at the very screen shot you posted and see what it's showing. Intrepid literally gave us the full equation in the lowest line of your own screenshot.

    It's literally 10 (base) + 334 (rating) * 0.1 (K) which equals to 43.4.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    Physical_Power_Stat_Description.png
    (I don't see any screenshot above :( just a file name)
    You can open it in a separate tab as an image, if you're on pc.

    If you're on mobile - it's literally just the "physical power" window from my bigger screen shot. It's from the fighter showcase.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Yes. K is not 0.1. It is rating divided by base plus base. That is why if I use 8 as base its an 8th and nor a 10th. Try the fighter calc on a calculator - my calc gets 42.4 at base of 8 or 44.4 at base of 10 yet the answer in the screenshot is 43.4. 🤔

    It is a coincidence that base is 10.
    Dividing by 10 is like multiplying with 0.1 (10%)
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Okay cool. I have discalculation and dyslexia. I'm still not convinced k is 0.1 at a locked ratio. It is not easy to accept a 0.1 staple when the two calculations are identical. Hence I will still have to run spreadsheets and tests in a2.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    Otr wrote: »
    Physical_Power_Stat_Description.png
    (I don't see any screenshot above :( just a file name)
    You can open it in a separate tab as an image, if you're on pc.

    If you're on mobile - it's literally just the "physical power" window from my bigger screen shot. It's from the fighter showcase.

    I noticed that I can do that use the link if I try to quote. That is how I was thinking on it for a while while you and Songcaller posted 6 times. I was looking for the magical power, I gave up and noticed you found it :)
    I see it works on mobile but on PC with 2 different browsers doesn't.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 9
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Okay cool. I have discalculation and dyslexia. I'm still not convinced k is 0.1 at a locked ratio. It is not easy to accept a 0.1 staple when the two calculations are identical. Hence I will still have to run spreadsheets and tests in a2.
    Oh, definitely do, because other stats are multiplied and calculated differently. There's also the DR (diminishing returns) multipliers on some stats, all with their own values.

    Considering K was removed in the Bard showcase (which is the newer iteration), I'd imagine Intrepid are not interested in us caring about K at all, while the calculation didn't change at all.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    Okay cool. I have discalculation and dyslexia. I'm still not convinced k is 0.1 at a locked ratio. It is not easy to accept a 0.1 staple when the two calculations are identical. Hence I will still have to run spreadsheets and tests in a2.

    Steven said in a stream or interview that these numbers are the easiest thing to change while balancing the game and that is why Alpha 2 is needed.
    I hope many players will do such spreadsheets because I don't :)
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I do find it particularly coincidental that 2 different stats with 2 different values somehow both ended up with a 34 ending in rating.

    Kinda makes me think that what we see in the showcase is completely made up rather than properly calculating. But I'm sure that this would be super easily tested by simply being in A2 tests right now, but all those 1.5k fuckers are NDAed, so, alas.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I have quickly checked the wiki (on beach about to have bbq). I can't locate where the 'base' comes from nor the 'rating'. Yes, I often make formulas when I can. The lifeblood of min maxing requires the arteries of foundation to be revealed. 😉
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    Something of note about weapons is that some will be required for certain skills. For example: oedbc84ha2ad.png
    _
    7ebb3l023rya.png
    _
    8flvbhfd3n2l.png

    Honestly the more I look into the skills they have shown off, the less I want for every weapon to be used by every class. Some of these just wouldnt make sense. Like a fighter with a book would need extensive animation/effect creation just to make it work. and ranger as you can see above is mostly bow focused. I expect that there will be many restrictions on what weapons can be used across the archetypes due to skills not being able to use them. It kind of defeats the stated goal of "everyone can use any weapon" but this does make it more important what weapon you bring.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    I have quickly checked the wiki (on beach about to have bbq). I can't locate where the 'base' comes from nor the 'rating'. Yes, I often make formulas when I can. The lifeblood of min maxing requires the arteries of foundation to be revealed. 😉

    Base stats are defined by a character's primary archetype.[13]
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stats

    The rating probably comes from
    These can be improved based on gear, tattoos, and other enhancements, such as socketed items.[13]
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