I would like to see more/longer PoVs of other players. Yes, its funny to see Steven stumbling around but it gets old real quick. Proper gameplay of people who know how to play the class is far more interesting than Steven playing tourist, even when they die because they made a mistake or something.
I dont want to offend or anything, but its something that I roled my eyes at months ago, maybe even years. Now it starts to annoy, especially after the bard showcase.
Fire breath animation looks awesome! A bit too good though, because other fire animations didn't look as good and when you put them side by side you really see the difference.
Some people above mentioned poor visibility because of dust and sun - I think it looked fine, you could still see the target, you don't always have to have a perfect picture and distinguish every pixel change as in FPS games.
The graphics looked very nice and detailed.
I'd agree with the rest that fire NPCs don't match the environment.
NPCs aren't challenging. They dealt high damage on crit - yes, but unlike in Bard(I think) stream where they were draining hp and you had to interrupt that plus groups are tightly packed due to being in a building - that was challenging.
But if you hadn't mentioned that they are supposed to be challenging, I wouldn't think twice about it. In other words - these mobs were routine for a group of 8. Of course, mobs are just there for you to lvl up.
If you want every (group) of mobs to be challenging - that would be great but that would mean you need to select combos for every group of mobs so that players have to adapt for every encounter - would be cool but I don't think anyone actually expects that.
IMO:
Did it do big damage? Yes.
Did it try to deal more damage based on players' position? Yes.
Was it hard? Yes.
Was it epic? No.
Why not epic?
I think this is because we've seen all of these attack (skills) mechanics before. But maybe because it didn't feel epic. If I heard correctly then this is supposed to be lvl50 boss or doesn't matter, this is a top lvl boss for now. I'd expect it to bring a fiery hell upon attackers, smash and burn everything and since you let it summon aids - elementals - make them do something, they are not trees.
Part of not feeling an 'epic' fight is due to a lack of immersion. Perhaps this is because the dragon isn't in its intended location, but you could, for example, have it change the environment—making it dark, summoning a storm of fire, or leaving a permanent (or long-lasting) trail of flames to make positioning more challenging.
Conclusion:
I think you did a great job of sifting through all the MMOs out there, taking the best parts from them, and then adding a lot of great new mechanics of your own. But boss fight is still just a little more advanced than 10-15 years ago. Sure, that's how it is now in all other MMOs (hold the chains then do the damage or kill spawns otherwise boss will get buffs). But are you the same as others or are you making something glorious?
You need to make one solid step forward and turn the boss fight from a "when" we kill him how we share the loot to "if" we kill him kind of situation.
Consider this example:
Would you remember a boss fight where the boss dealt a lot of damage, requiring you to move away to avoid getting hurt, then continuing to deal damage?
Or would you remember a boss fight where the entire raid team had to work together as one to succeed—a fight where you're hopeful of winning but not certain, knowing that 1-2 mistakes could lead to a cascade effect and eventually cause a defeat?
I don't have a really good example for this, but a couple of interesting ideas are here: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?
Or maybe a simplistic version - boss summoned a few servants, they try to get to the point(portal), if they reach it then after 5 mins you will get a small group of defenders, if defenders survive then they cast a spell dealing damage now and causing next event and so on. It could be not as linear as this but I can't come up with a good example right now.
Overall, everything looks good, but you've set very high standards for yourself, and I'm judging your game based on the level you set yourself.
Couldn't come up with a funny joke but I'll still post this:
For an alpha, I liked the showcase pretty much. I see improvements in visuals, as well as in lighting, and that's what these showcases are about. So it's nice to see progress regarding players' feedback.
The spell visuals, lighting, contrast, and particle effects just don't sit well with me. But that could also be a personal issue since we all have individual tastes. I just still think it takes me out of the immersion, seeing these relatively cheap spell effects with no lighting impact on the close environment, especially in dark places.
Regarding the dragon fight, I really like the look of the dragon, the sounds, and the fire design. But even though I know this is still an alpha state, I wish the dragon had way more different interactions and was actually smarter than just standing there, waiting for something to happen. You give him a cool entrance by flying onto the spot, but then nothing happens, and also the background looks pretty boring to me if you're not fighting him in front of the castle.
I also think he's on the ground way too much, doing some basic attacks that don't even stun or knock back. Like come on, if you get hit by a giant dragon claw, you shouldn't just stand there like, "Oh, it just did some damage and went through me, and I can keep attacking from the same spot." No stunning, knockback, knock-up, or anything like that, at least from what I could see.
Also, for being such a powerful dragon boss, he doesn't really present himself like one. And I think you can see by the player's behavior that most of the time, they’re just standing around him, not really having to look out for specific attacks or interactions, which makes it not so special after all.
He has wings, so why not use them as an advantage and do a lot more stuff with them? Flying high, doing some big fireballs, like charging himself up after he lets out a big scream in the air, focusing on healers and damage dealers with the fireballs, and then doing a charge attack onto the ground, knocking back tanks, for example.
He should have way more CC interactions, where the fight can get chaotic, rather than the players just attacking like bots, not going for a dodge roll or something like that.
Also, when charging up in the air, why not make all close targets get thrown away by the gust of wind? Or make a huge wing kick that stuns people on the ground beneath it.
Or make him grab the highest damage dealer by stats (the one who has done the most damage to him so far) every 1 or 2 minutes and fly up with them, and if players can't deal a certain amount of damage in that time, the player just gets dropped to the ground and is one-shot. It would not only be hilarious and impressive but would also make other players more respectful when the dragon comes close to them.
The last thing I want to mention is that I'm kind of sad that the environment has no influence on the fight. For example, specific items or structures could help you with certain mechanics. I also don't like that the dragon takes the same damage no matter where you aim or hit it. It would add so much more to the fight if, for example, you had to attack the legs so they buckle, and then you could deal more damage because a weak spot becomes attackable.
But as I said, I know this is an alpha state, and I'm not disappointed or anything. I'm just trying to provide some feedback and ideas that, in my opinion, would make the boss fight an experience that won't be forgotten.
Why not epic?
I think this is because we've seen all of these attack (skills) mechanics before. But maybe because it didn't feel epic. If I heard correctly then this is supposed to be lvl50 boss or doesn't matter, this is a top lvl boss for now. I'd expect it to bring a fiery hell upon attackers, smash and burn everything and since you let it summon aids - elementals - make them do something, they are not trees.
Part of not feeling an 'epic' fight is due to a lack of immersion. Perhaps this is because the dragon isn't in its intended location, but you could, for example, have it change the environment—making it dark, summoning a storm of fire, or leaving a permanent (or long-lasting) trail of flames to make positioning more challenging.
This is the one thing that sticks out to me in the showcase. This is a magic using powerful dragon. Even with the age of the dragon as young, Firebrand has clearly mastered some magic use.
I would want to see the dragon challenge the players from the start instead of just standing there eating grass. Being aware of groups of characters and responding. Like early before the raid forms, as soon as the group exits the citadel to see the dragon. Firebrand should unleash a meteor shower or magma bomb towards the party.
Instead of just letting a large group of players stand around and strategize, form their raid group. Firebrand should already be responding to this large group standing around over there using something like artillery to soften up the enemy before they reach the front lines. It would have been more closely becoming epic to see that raid group have to dodge around and be aware of meteors and magma bombs coming in on them while standing so close to the beast. Or maybe a minor summon of sending a elemental or two or three into the group as they approached.
I think that helps set the stage a little better that Firebrand is not only going to try to smash you. Firebrand can cast spells so be ready for that
How do you feel about the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
For an Alpha 2 pretty impressive. Yes it still needs some work, but it looks very much enjoyable. The Music really caught me, normally my Musicsettings are low to off, not going to happen in Ashes.
What excites you about playing and interacting within the Citadel, its enemies, and Firebrand?
The PvP that most likely comes with it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
Loot hopefully evovles, I would prefer to have the Worldboss drop very rare completed leg. items but has always Recipes with some charges for decent epic craftings and rarely a onetimecraft leg. Recipe. Also maybe some standardloot for everyone participating. So everyone gets something, the Raid/Guild gets 10 Recipies to make Progression for some out of the Raid, someone gets maybe lucky.
Mobs not moving/enganging is just an Alpha issue that most likely is on your known issues list.
What has the Raid todo while 1 Group starts the encounter? Already PvPing?
For Lvl 20 Elites a Lvl 20 Group seemed to have an easy time. Maybe very well geared, but I expected it to be more troublesome.
40 Players on Lvl 20 (assumption!) take on the Lvl 25 Worldboss, so would 40 Lvl 25 Players maybe able to deal with that more quickly. PvP encounters are very likely to happen. How far will there be an announcement that Firebrand was spotted/called?
More Feedback for sure when I faced him the first time...
All in all, it looks very good and that for an alpha! If I had to comment on anything else, it would be the difficulty level. The boss doesn't look like it has a difficult mechanic. Simply that there are more phases with more diverse things to pay attention to. Simply more tactics. But maybe it's just the gameplay that's deceptive. In the video it also seemed as if you could revive party members as often as you like, which I wouldn't like.
Apart from that little things in the UI. I hope Nameplates can be activated and deactivated for players and enemies.
As for the damage numbers, I'd like to see the critical hits/heals have more impact and be better emphasized.
Having the monsters just stand around waiting is incredibly outdated. Both the monsters in the dungeon as well as the dragon just stood there. Please have them move around, walk a bit, go about their day, and so on.
Some dragon animations didn't feel like the dragon has any weight, especially the landing animations... legs should bend, etc. The dust going up in the air during the rest of the fight was amazing.
Please show UI customization next, it popped up a bit in the video.
4 loot items for 40 people seems very very skimpy. Please give bosses, raids, etc. also personal loot. Only a few items on a need/greed is not up to modern standards.
I think a Mix is good. Standing Monsters and Patrolling monsters.
I've seen a lot of people complain about resurrection being too op. They have not played the game, it is not balanced, and on top of that, many players are used to instanced content where wiping and trying again is the norm. Let us experience the content before changing basic mechanics such as resurrection, because I'm sure a lot of people will change their minds when they actually get to test it.
I'm not saying you should do this, but make sure your system has the flexibility to make enemy stats such as HP scalable to the number of players just in case these bosses start melting when we actually do some proper testing.
The spell effects were too much, specially that new blue banner, it effectively distorted a huge area.
Is it really ok to have a quest that can be easily completed by 8 people be the trigger to spawn a raid boss? shouldn't there be more to it than that?
I expect you keep respecting the "crafters make the best shit policy," I understand this was a showcase, but it seems like the new objective is to have a similar number of completed items and crafting materials drop from enemies.
The event to protect the ghost lady was too long and boring. Either add mini-bosses that drop interesting stuff, or keep it trash monsters only but make it shorter, killing trash is just boring.
It feels, just a little static, like the entrance was cool, but then it waits for people to interact with it, while cyclop was walking and could engage with players just by meeting them. It would be really cool, if the dragon started attacking players from the sky in the whole area around the castle, if they ignore him. Then land, set timeout on idle state, if players attacked the dragon, start the "raid" stage, if not, fly around and attack players.
Make the dragon boss head towards the parent node of the quest that spawned it and wreak havoc. This would make the "threat" of the world boss more real.
Like Smaug totalling Laketown.
Dragon Encounter :
Your designers forgot about WING BUFFET. Make the dragon use Wing Buffet or the reverse to push/pull enemies away from their cleave direction.
Make mechanics deal % Total HP damage. Damage should scale out of the enrage buff.
Make the boss "level up for the encounter duration" (like the Mandokir boss in WoW classic) when killing players to counteract ressurrection spam.
Please fix the stats as soon as possible. This is probably the least informative stat profile I have ever seen in a game. All these nebulous ratings that requires the player to do math to even know what they do. What is 6 crit power rating, what is 111 additive weapon fire damage rating. Just give us exactly what these stats are doing with flat values and percentages. Looking at these items I have 0 idea how much damage they are giving me or how much mitigation. It is impossible to know. Tell us what damage Physical power rating gives, Tell us what 70 attack speed gives. Make it reflect automatically on the weapon's base stats tooltip. Right now the items just look like boring stat sticks.
When you look at an item in a game like Path of Exile you know exactly what that item is giving you. If a stat modifies weapon damage it is reflected on the weapon's base damage. If I have added fire damage it gives you a nice Red Text on the item saying the fire damage it does. All these ratings that require the player to know some formula to get any idea of the function is simply bad design. Some of these stats are fine but having all of them like this means you have to guess what a good item is.
On another note the tooltip does not tell you what item type these things are for some reason. The only way to know is the tiny picture. We need to know the base stats, weapon type, Modifiers to base stats and how much they modify if you hold shift or a more info key.
Items and gear are one of the most important things to get right. If you are giving players items that just cause confusion or requires them to tab out of the game and run a simulator you are failing step 1. Clarity should be your number 1 priority. This needs to be done very soon or it undermines your core function crafting systems.
I made up some examples of what I feel would be an improved tooltip. There is more visual clarity on how much damage the weapon is providing you along with some potential interactions with weapon skill points. For the example I copied the Cindersinger bow stat profile but with more clear indication on what you are getting from each stat. (I used a great Path of Exile tooltip editor because it was very fast and easy to use so excuse that.)
Coming back to this with more thoughts, or I guess a tldr of my feelings about the dragon fight: underwhelmed.
Watching the fighting was, quite honestly, somewhat boring. The overblown player effects paired with the empty, flat arena and a dragon that had no standard cleave attack, just made the whole thing not look threatening from a visual perspective, even when I saw hp bars going down in the UI.
I really think the visual design is going to need severe adjustments when there’s next to no significant differentiation between hostile mob effects and player-cast effects. Or, even worse, if the hostile effects are overpowered by the friendly effects during combat.
Don't get fooled by my concerns, I really liked the showcase overall.
My thoughts on the dragon raid :
1. Some dragon animations look outdated and not enough weighted. Example, when he lands on the ground after flying and throwing fire, he should turn around with momentum with his wings flapping and having some synergy, not like a 360° round table showoff.
2. The dragon should be agressive. He should definitely attack people as soon as they are visible in their screen. Why the hell is he standing there still while other people are looking at him ? He should be ferocious and flapping wings, or walking towards them with conviction of hurting them. The raid SHOULD start as soon as he lands on the ground (and he sees enemies).
3. Mechanics look great for a start, but I think they should add more mechanics that favorise comprehensive decision making and strategy. I have a good example by what I mean. Killing the ads one by one is too generic simplistic. They should add more mechanics into that. We saw that the dragon consumes fire from them at a certain point. I think thoses ads that are on fire should be invulnerable until we extinguish their fire (by utilizing crowd control skills like push/pull them into the water near them or freeze them) and then we kill them. And if we don't succeed by killing them, the dragon pull them off the water to consume them to gain more power. All this within a time limit. WE SHOULD USE our CC skills on PvE encounters. Make breakbars for the dragon that we have to destroy by CCing him just like GW2 so it stuns him and make him invulnerable. I won't say this enough, we need more mechanics into a single boss fight.
EDIT : I figured out that, for a level 25 raid boss, this is pretty neat as mechanics. But I definitely want to see more complexity for endgame bosses
4. The dragon entering the world isn't cinematic enough. EVERYONE that is near the area should have an instanced cinematic (that they can skip) of the dragon entering the world.
5. I REALLLYY hope that we at least get some individual drops if we defeat the dragon. I won't be wasting 20 minutes of gameplay for not having anything in my inventory afterward. It should feel rewarding.
-The fight and animations seemed polished and gameplay ready.
-I'm concerned if this is the level of "Epicness" for a Named Dragon specially if there is only 13~15 world bosses. I'm ok this is using the Elder Dragon of Flame skin from A1 but if a Named Dragon uses the same skin as others it doesn't feel Epic enough. It just feels like another dragon. In the future if named dragons use the same skin as the Elder Dragons of Tundra/Wood, give them something different, like horn shapes, scars, face shape, etc.
-For a Young Adult Dragon the size is decent, i liked it. But I hope there are bigger dragons!
-For world "threatening" bosses i expect at least region wide temporary visual and audio "notifications" that are specific for each World Boss spawns.
-Not enough background info about Firebrand. We needed some lore drop of him during the stream. The name atm means nothing.
-Clear phases, i liked that there was a distinct DPS raid check. Wish there was another raid wide mechanic that if done correctly it would stagger him.
-Make world boss corpses stay in the world for far longer, at least multiple hours. It's a visual indicator that a world boss has been killed and it can be used as an information tool for next re-spawns(if they are time based). It also becomes something intriguing for those who don't know what it is, as it will create social interactions from those who are curious.
Overall the stream was good, i felt a bit disappointed but it's my own fault for having such high expectations. I thought we were previewing something bigger/higher level in this dev update. Something like Valakas or Deathwing but the Ashes of Creation version :P
I thought this went well. A few things I wouldn't mind seeing:
Jumping up and flying in place with fire breath around the area
More omnidirectional fire breaths along with the straight-line fire breath
Potentially a flying stage? (Making sure you have range and melee classes?)
More reactions to the size of the dragon/getting hit or proximity... knock backs, wing thrusts etc
Fire breath fireballs to direct targets
Water mechanics either absorbing fire, or steaming
Fire circles on the ground less concretely circle. They look too "fake". Make the fire have difference blobs/shape size etc
The fire breath embers should have more flames after the fact, not just smolders
More dust and debris when the wings flap. Like noticeable dust clouds impeding view
A separate issue, but I feel like the saturation of the red for the mob name plates is too saturated. That or there's not enough of an outline. It can make the letters run together and hard to read.
Anytime a dragon of that mass physically strikes a PC, that PC should fly or get knocked back with the equivalent force.
Of all of the traits of dragons, intelligence stands out. That intelligence should show itself during a fight.
First, use of environment. The area of the fight was desolate. That means dirt and debris the dragon could use to its advantage. Dirt/dust particle effects seemed to be random, and unrelated to the dragon. I get it that it’s Alpha. Similarly, as some have pointed out, some environment effects made it difficult to see. Therefore the dragon would use that to its advantage. I also think the encounter with this dragon might look better at night with the dragon using darkness as cover.
An intelligent dragon might use more hit and run tactics and target the same PCs that a PVP player might. If the PCs are amassed then it might body slam that area but quickly move to switch back to a more selective targeting approach.
The area in question might have worked better with a necromatic red dragon. That keeps with the theme of intelligence and utilizing the environment.
If my understanding is correct the scenario for this dragon fight was due to the recovery of the artifact, which I believe was stated to be the dragon’s egg. If that’s the scenario and therefore the mission of the dragon, then why a full blown battle? Why would the dragon not sweep down, snatch the PC holding the egg, and then fly off to its lair? The epic raid could continue there. Or that entire sequence of events creates a new event. So you could set it up as a dragon fight, raise an army of the dead, snatch the MacGuffin, and fly back to the lair for a snack. The raid then turns into an epic battle with the fallen. Throw in a corruption element and there could be remnants of the army that are unleashed on the world for more events and content. I also like the idea of villains that live longer than one encounter. In fact, taking down such a villain should be very difficult to make it more memorable and meaningful. For example, having players create strategies to interact with the dragon AI from a more strategic level.
Finally, did I hear correctly that this egg is this young dragon’s and the egg became this epic orb 1000 years ago. If that’s the case, how old is “young” for AoC dragons? And if this dragon has survived over 1000 years, then it should be much wiser. Or was this dragon suspended in time by those who took the egg?
- Excessive lighting and fog
- Unlike FFXIV and Lost Ark (which ik are different type of mmo in terms of graphics and target audiences), this game’s fights are not as captivating. The dragon fight, in particular, felt repetitive
- Outdated animations like the dragon’s wings or that green lady or even the fire from those supports
- The dragon and the other monsters stand still until engaged, and the dragon's death animation is unimpressive
- The player's characters dont look very appealing to me idk why, also all of the characters looked kinda same
- When the dragon breathes fire, the terrain should be altered to reflect the damage. This change should be persistent throughout the entire battle with the affected area remaining scorched/burned. Also when the dragon steps on the water there are no animations and when the dragon lands or moves his tail it doesnt knock ppl off
- For the dungeon (idk what the other dungeons are like tho) we need some other challanges instead of just killing mobs, for the dragon as well bcs just hitting the dragon and run from the fire is boring imo and it is like any other mmo out there
- There should be some impact to the fight when players die, not just reviving them in no time like nothing happened
- When the dragon (or other bosses) appears maybe a cinematic should start or smthing, if u dont look up in the sky u dont even see that a dragon is coming
- Separate from this, the "64 classes" doesn't seem like a good idea for me alltho i understand the concept behind it and ik the second class will just influecne a few spells.
Overall im kinda dissapointed, it doesn't look bad, but it doesn’t look very good either. Those saying the dragon fight was 10/10 might be biased due to their investment in the game, whether through early access payments or involvement as testers. Right now i dont see why someone would leave their current playing mmo to come on AoC, but this is only based on what ive seen in that preview, i know its still in Alpha and there are a lot of things that will be improved or changed and also a lot of stuff that we havent seen yet.
In regards to necromancer archetype for summoners (and other classes/archetypes in general if applicable) will we be able to interact with some of the cool environment IE, the bones everywhere, when we animate a skeleton will it pull from those? Will it require corpses? It would be neat to see the tie in lore wise for necromancer with the lore about the king that created the undead enemies we have seen showcased prior
I would also like to know the limit on battle rezzes. Seems like you kept going around rezzing everyone without limit. Is that GM powers or were you actually rezzing them?
I love the music, and I'm really impressed with what you're doing with the networking tech. However, I'd like to share some thoughts on the video:
1. Dungeon
1.1 Feeling and Atmosphere: The graphics are solid, and the music is incredible—seriously, I loved it. However, the "citadel" feels too small to create a truly immersive experience. When I think of dungeons that have left a lasting impact, Karazhan and Blackrock Depths set the standard. Exploring those labyrinths took me months, maybe even years, to fully grasp their complexity. I'm not sure if this was your intention with the "citadel," but to truly immerse players, the game needs vast, intricate spaces like enormous castles, dungeons, cellars, and natural caves. Considering the PvX nature of the game, creating these expansive environments is crucial. I want to have those "Oh, sh*t!" moments while exploring, whether it’s encountering mythical creatures (rare spawns) or stumbling upon fellow explorers in the heat of battle, suddenly finding myself in a "hot zone."
1.2 Pulls & Mechanics: I’ve shared my thoughts on the outdated threat mechanics. It’s no longer acceptable for a single mob to suddenly decide it’s a good idea to attack 15 heavily-armed players. That might have worked 20 years ago, but in the age of AI, it feels ridiculous. I expect a more realistic defense system, where intruders trigger alarms and players must navigate dungeons carefully, using various spells to disable patrols (hexes, saps, stuns, roots, or just big damage if needed).
1.3 Boss Fights: The boss fights seem stuck in the same hard-coded patterns we’ve seen in WoW for the past 20 years. Frankly, it’s boring. I was hoping that after all these years, there’d be more innovation. In my vision, boss fights should feel more like PvP encounters—each opponent’s type should influence the fight's nature, skillset, and tactics. The power, focus, and playstyle should vary from boss to boss, making each fight a unique challenge.
2. Combat: I know it’s early to discuss class design, but please aim for something with the depth of WoW Classic, the playstyle and dynamics of BDO, and the complexity of WoW's rotations.
I remain hopeful that you’ll grant me my wish: full access key (alpha, beta, and omega)... yesterday..
Didn’t think the Citadel was a dungeon, but a location with an event.
Also rewatching again, was it the cultist who took the dragon egg/orb of ultimate essence from the dragon? Would then make more sense with respect to age of the dragon.
I'll just keep saying it, because it's the only thing I care about in PvE:
Dare to make clear, bold decisions. It doesn't always have to look perfect, as long as the gameplay purpose of the design choice is apparent, and the result is fun and there's a clear player decisionmaking impulse caused by it.
I want to see more bosses and dungeons use genuinely unique mechanics.
Splitting up groups as described here, is still my favourite one, because it genuinely changes how you optimise your decisionmaking and makes you think hard about the fight. Obviously you won't be able to utilise that everywhere, otherwise it will become a stale gimmick quickly. But that's the type of idea I'd want you to draw inspiration from.
For an idea of what that might look like converted to open-world boss mechanics:
Gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination.
Not just instadeath effects, but things like
damage immunity windows
damage reflections
massive shield effects for the boss that have to be regularly outbursted before the boss takes any damage (I personally like this effect on bosses with 0 healing and regeneration, so a persistent group can kill it even if they only barely get through the shield before the recast.)
requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects
requiring specific player effects to ward off specific boss effects from unavoidable damage to individuals or areas. (And if the party doesn't shield against significant portion of them, they should be pretty much guaranteed to run out of resurrections before the boss dies, so they can't just bruteforce it.)
Resurrection restrictions
This stuff is basic and we've all seen it before and it's not challenging to coordinated groups, but it's the bread and butter on top of which other more nuanced balancing mechanics start to feel advanced, rather than just throwing higher stats and numbers at the thing until it works.
Once these sorts of gimmicks are in place, I hope you will also apply more PvX-targeted gimmicks on higher-level bosses and dungeons.
Here you can really let your creativity run wild, because most of these can be circumvented through diplomacy or higher group numbers, so if players complain about the balance, you can just tell them they need to cooperate more.
Bosses deleting non-combattants beyond a certain point in the fight.
Bosses splitting groups across a wall, storing damage from each side, and then inflicting the excess of the superior side to the other.
Bosses employing rebalancing techniques where smaller groups get to shine by doing things like measuring percental damage and heal output, or placing them in small walled arenas and granting buffs to the groups that survive longer before the arenas lift and the proper boss fight begins. Similar mechanics obviously offer themselves for dungeons that have separate parties from rivalling nodes inside them.
Dungeons doing the group-splitting relocation described above, but grouping you with hostiles and making you immune to each other and forced to cooperate until the end of the dungeon.
Dungeons rewarding you higher for choosing harder paths and killing more monsters before the end.
Too many of these will become tiresome, and the game needs to give players a solid idea what they are supposed to do about the gimmick, so it doesn't just become an uncoordinated mess, but this is the sort of direction I think you need to think in when designing dungeons and bosses.
I also think the fights would be more interesting in general, if classes could be more specialised in stats. Less health on specialised squishy nukes, but higher defensive buffs or damage-redirection-siphoning granted to the party by tanks. Less damage on tanks and healers. The usual. It's a bit too blended right now, and it makes for less player skill challenge, and instead just a "is our damage sufficient, and does our healer's gear suffice to keep up with the damage we take?" challenge.
For non-boss farming I don't need unique mechanics, but here I'd love to see opportunities for low-level players to be rewarded (perhaps up to 100% XP bonus - which should naturally be drastically be diminished by their slower progression through the area) for braving areas significantly outside of their recommended level range.
(This would need to come in addition to the necessary protections in place against higher-level players powerlevelling their friends; honestly a script checking for the highest-level player involved in the fight and reducing the share for significantly underlevelled players efore the loot is distributed should mostly do the trick...Alternatively a solid formula to calculate the heals, buffs and damage that contributed the most to the takedown would be appreciated, if it doesn't cost a lot of server performance.)
I also have the feedback on the graphics that a lot of people have been discussing:
I agree that the dust is way too much for me and kills the contrast, so I'd likely try to get rid of it by turning that special effect completely off.
My suggestion for making it less disruptive, but retaining the mood it is meant to create, is to strictly use it in small select locations only. Mountain tops, the entrance to a temple, sunny hills, very specific weather conditions.
In the dragon pit, it could be good, if it stopped at shoulder-height for players, making the sky more visible.
Reduce the window where this sort of dust/fog currently shows up by 80%, and it'll be a very nice mood-generating tool.
I understand why people like Steven love it the way it is, and I'm fine just turning it off, but if you want me to keep it on, that's what you'd have to do.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
the mechanics and attacks are great, but the fight is just WAY too easy... make the flying fire breath one shot people, the charged AoE fire blast one shot, and then we will have a challenging boss
without one shot mechanics this is just going to get rolled through by organized groups
Thought the dungeon looked like fun, slow intentional pulls were good, enjoy the fact that every pull requires some work, not just pull and destroy in seconds. Lighting and visuals look great, but maybe turn down the god rays slightly.
Firebrand fight was very interesting and fun to watch. Hoping that the fight will actually last longer than it did, think it was a very short boss fight, especially considering during release there will be a very large amount of people going for it and not just the one raid. If you are the initial raid fighting the boss and are attacked by another raid trying to steal it, is there a timer for the health regen of the boss? Is the idea to balance defending our kill and defending against the attackers?
Also agree with some of the things mentioned before that when he lands I would expect some ground shaking or knees bending by the dragon. Also, some slight AOE indicators, and more tactical aspects to the fight, wind gust from the wings causing a stagger or knockback, maybe rear up on his hind legs and stomp down to cause damage/knockdown to the close range attackers, would like to see more things to dodge and pay attention to. Overall, I thought it looked great, looking forward to testing soon.
How do you feel about the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
I think with regards to Firebrand it is as i expected it to be which is good and bad. The biggest miss for me on the boss was there wasn't anything that felt unique to Ashes.
As for the Citadel, I feel we didn't see much of anything outside of rooms and fighting areas. The space seemed very small and empty which is sad as i thing this ruin or buildings have been the most interesting from an architecture perspective. The courtyard area where the 1st wave fight took place looked rather empty an not filled out with other NPC, and general stuff to be expected. This was a showcase of a pocket dungeon and it felt more like a POI instead. We walked in main door, fought some pulls in a hall, went and fought mobs in the courtyard, up some stairs and wave fight to get item. There was nothing that made you feel this was a challenging area or an area to explore and such. Leading more to the POI feel. Compare this to Tower of C and you don't get the same vibe. One of the coolest things was the bloom in the middle of the building but we could not see anything due to the lighting.
I think lighting in general needs to be addressed also as last few streams lighting and colors seem washed out and faded, and dark areas are hard to see and full light blinds you so you cant see anything.
What excites you about playing and interacting within the Citadel, its enemies, and Firebrand?
World boss seems to be cool and and as expected. The unknow factor was never there for me to see so maybe this will be the different summon of him as Steven eluded too. Citadel fight didn't seem to match what the place should be. I cant get the "oh this is a cool POI" vs what this is an awesome dungeon. We didn't really see much of the place and what we did see fell flat.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
The lack of content shown in the citadel and the lack of mob population and size of the area are all of concern. This area feels and looks like it plays very small in nature.
Firebrand just seems like your run of the mill dragon fight nothing special or Ashes twist on things.
Overall i think this showcase was very hit or miss. The design and artwork both for citadel and firebrand look good but are hard to enjoy and really be immersed in the world of verra. The areas felt unfinished and missing both basic furnishings and NPCs in the area to make it feel alive, threat or a higher level area. Biggest issues outside of the two main topics was for sure lighting and ambient items (fire caldrons) that are pulling your attention from the world or story. The back to back wave fights to summon the lady and then the channel battle could become a boring game play loop for some I'm sure.
- The first impression in the video isn't good. The angle of the sun shining over everything was so oppressive that I was literally physically squinting my eyes. I want to tell you whether or not I like or dislike the design of the fortress itself, but I can't because the sun was getting in the way for most of it.
- While I appreciate the lore explanations in the beginning, I feel you were meandering way too much before engaging with the actual content. I found myself getting impatient and skipped ahead a couple minutes in the video to find you were still just randomly talking. I'd prefer a more concise format for this type of stream, where you give some lore context to explain "why this is here" and such, but then go engage with the content immediately - the content itself is what I'm here to see, not a casually-paced conversation.
- I understand that this is WIP but I feel like if you have a big desolate field outside this fortress, the render distance for enemies and some smaller details should be scaled higher up. Otherwise, a wide open space like that works against you and it just feels empty.
- I did actually rather like the garden area inside the fortress WHEN I GOT TO SEE IT (the sun issue still applied in there), and I think a great solution here would be to make the sky around this area perpetually overcast. Not foggy, mind you, just 'spooky cloudy'. That could serve as an interesting aesthetic contrast with the walkway in the fortress and how nice the garden spot looked (when I got to see it). It would tell me, "this used to be a place of beauty but now things feel off", which seems to be what you were going for with the field outside.
- Pursuant to the sky being overcast, give the enemies some more prominent glow effects, possibly some bloom lighting, which would naturally be emphasized with a darker sky palette.
COMBAT
- I'm finding that perhaps the combat camera from FFXI has spoiled me a bit. In that game, targeting an enemy (or party member for that matter) and then 'locking on' (not just targeting itself) will cause the camera to focus on them. While this might sound like a small thing, it causes each individual enemy to have a distinct feeling of weight and presence in the world. Right now, the basic mobs in the path up to the altar feel disposable to me, like generic Dynasty Warriors enemies, and this was reinforced by the fact that I never felt you were in any danger.
- I WANT to feel like I'm in danger if I'm infiltrating a big hostile fortress. For argument's sake, let's say the front gate being opened from the start was fair (the enemies were explicitly invading to take over the place, so I'll give that a pass). The way this is set up, it feels like your party is a persistent force that the enemies can't really stop or even meaningfully threaten, and can only slow down.
- In a fortress raid like this, I want to feel like I'm in danger. I want to feel like I'm deep in enemy territory, that I and my group are doing a pinpoint infiltration of somewhere dangerous, and that we need to be very careful because if we draw too much attention to ourselves, we could easily bite off more than we can chew. I want there to be a sense of risk. I dislike the power fantasy of being able to just chew through hoards of weaker mobs. I want each enemy to have more presence and thought put into its design than that.
SUGGESTIONS FOR COURTYARD FIGHTS
- As it stands, it looks like your group didn't need to care about positioning much at all. The moment where Steve could just pull back and take a stroll around for a good minute or two before more enemies spawned was especially egregious. I think adding positioning and terrain considerations would help a lot. Suggestions follow:
- Make every enemy self-destruct a few seconds after they die, and MAKE THE DAMAGE HIGH ENOUGH THAT YOU NEED TO CARE. Make it so you need to be careful of when and where (and how!) you kill enemies, since a self-destructing corpse at a bad moment could cause your party's numbers to work against you and hurt everyone badly.
- Since the enemies are being empowered by a Dangerous Flame Relic, add some more torches throughout the area (the initial walkway before the garden seems fine) and then give them the ability to cause plumes of fire to erupt from the torches periodically. Again, make the damage matter. It's another positional concern - things like this can cause enemies to feel like more than the sum of their parts, since the angles you can safely fight at become limited and your options change accordingly.
- Having to get all the way to the center of the garden to summon the Lady of the Rose seems lame. In order to prevent players from being able to stroll around the arena like Steve did, perhaps trigger the event by summoning her at the BEGINNING of the fortress (perhaps just outside it - if you want, have the gate closed until you summon her, and then she magically opens it to begin the quest). She then advances - a bit slower than her speed here but not slow enough to be frustrating - and you need to protect her as she does so. I know that escort missions can be frustrating, but the combination of restricted terrain plus enemies being spawned at HER pace rather than your own would make things much more tense. In the interest of fairness, make her immune or highly resistant to AoE damage for the purposes of this.
- When she gets to the altar, have the ritual thing take less time, since you had to escort her up. I understand this part is WIP, but make the animation of her cancelling out the artifact's power more interesting. Perhaps a visual effect that gets stronger over time to dynamically show how close she is to completing it.
- The most egregious part of the whole stream to me was when Steve picked up the artifact, which turns out to be a DRAGON EGG, and then the dragon just shows up and perches outside and waits around placidly long enough that someone (I forget if it was Steve himself) jokingly called it an herbivore. THIS IS NOT HOW A DRAGON SHOULD REACT WHEN SOMEONE STEALS ITS EGG. That should provoke an immediate and merciless response. It should be the most potent way you could EVER provoke a dragon. Once you take a dragon's egg, either you or the dragon is GOING TO DIE. Pursuant to that...
SUGGESTIONS FOR THE DRAGON
- Instead of having the dragon just plop outside and wait there in what I consider a total loss of immersion, let's instead cause interacting with the dragon egg to trigger some sort of warning that you'll enter a boss fight once you grab it, and then give you the option to grab it right away or prep first. After you grab the egg, you get teleported to an instanced arena, where a scaled down version of that dragon appears and fights you immediately (perhaps after a brief intro cutscene) because you took its egg. You win, you get to keep the egg, and that item becomes a per-requisite for spawning the larger dragon outside the fortress.
- Assuming you scale down the current dragon a bit - reduce his HP, size, and damage output by, let's say, 50% (totally arbitrary guess-number), I'd consider that to be fine for a standard-party bossfight. Have the adds explode on death like in the courtyard, and make it so when the dragon uses his sweeping fire breath attack, plumes of fire erupt from the adds. I'd consider that mostly satisfactory as a basic boss design. As for the actual raid dragon shown in the video...
- I was very disappointed. The dragon's attacks lacked a sense of power and feedback. And I see no reason you couldn't just run away from it. So after the big dragon spawns, let's have him make a really big ring of flame around the field that serves as an arena. Maybe give a telegraphed warning (whether visual, dialogue popup, or both) that a Big Nasty Boss is about to spawn so players who don't want to engage with the content have time to flee.
- The dragon's attacks lacked a sense of power, and most importantly, FEEDBACK. A dragon of that size, I expect every big swipe of its claws to stagger people around it from the sheer force of the swing. I expect its tailspins to knock people off their feet. I expect its 'stomp down from the air' attacks to do the same. I want being hit by a giant dragon to FEEL like being hit by a giant dragon.
- Make player positioning matter more! It's one of the most interesting tools you have for a fight like this! When the dragon rises up and then uses its flames on the ground in a straight line, have that cause a lingering wall of fire that lasts (arbitrary number) 30 seconds or so, and divides up the arena. You can cross that wall of fire, but doing so will cause you to take a lot of damage and get debuffed (perhaps a defense drop). Since that move is very telegraphed, you have plenty of time to avoid the initial firebreath, but you need to quickly choose how to position yourself. From what I'm aware of, every class has some sort of ranged ability, so I wouldn't call this unfair on a design level.
- In FFXI, Wyrms (the Big Dragon equivalent) have an ability called Spike Flail. Basically, if you're attacking the dragon from the back and piss it off, it can do a VERY powerful tail attack that is gonna kill or nearly kill everyone near it. Basically, this means that in FFXI, you have to choose between staying in the range of a dragon's teeth, claws, and breath attacks, or risk a very nasty Spike Flail if you try to 'cheat' and avoid those by attacking from the back. On that note, I'd give the tail the ability to attack independently of the dragon's other moves, so as to facilitate this. If anybody the tail is engaging pulls hate, a very powerful tail slam can follow and seriously mess them up. Make this the dragon's strongest damage source by far.
- Have the raid-scale dragon start spawning adds much earlier; I'd go for about 80% health instead of 50%. Gives you enough time to get used to his basic attacks, and then he immediately ramps it up.
- Arrange the cooldown of the flying breath attack such that the dragon can form two walls of fire at the same time, but probably not more than that. Apply this effect to the smaller instanced boss-dragon I proposed, just again, on a smaller scale than the raid boss.
- Make it so the dragon can flap its wings very powerfully and cause various debuffs for anyone close enough to get hit by the shockwave - such as blinding, stun, paralysis, etc. Adds some more dynamicism to the fight.
FINAL NOTES
Maybe I'm being mean, maybe I'm being unfair, but I feel like... if you took the CURRENT raid dragon, scaled him down to, say, being a bit larger than a horse, and removed his ability to spawn adds, then you'd have what I would consider a perfectly acceptable standard enemy. Like, there's Griffon-type enemies in FFXI that I would love to see function this way, and an area full of these mini-dragon-things would be great! Perfectly good standard enemy for an upper-mid level area of your world.
Basically, I think that the current form of the raid dragon, scaled down in such a way, should represent the level of thought and care that goes into EVERY mob design, just as a bottom line. The lack of feedback on his claw swipes and stomps is fine this way - it's a much smaller enemy. The lack of a lingering firewall is fine - the smaller size means it can't do that move on anywhere near the same scale to begin with.
In FFXI, I feel like the designers put a lot of thought into individual enemy types/species, making them very detailed in a vacuum, and then they just put a variety of those enemy types into the same space, gave them aggression behaviors that made logical sense, and then from there things naturally became more than the sum of their parts. Fighting a tiger, an ent, and a goblin all at the same time is possible, and you need to pay attention to the unique behaviors of each enemy. That's what I'd expect as a bare minimum level of effort for good PVE content, or engaging fortress raids, or whathaveyou.
I want to like this content. I really do. I want you to do better than this.
I'm confused. What exactly was this showcase? Was it a Raid? Was it a Story Arc Quest? Story Arc Narrative Event? World Boss? Because all of that language was used in the showcase to describe what we were seeing. Without the context of exactly what was showcased, it's hard to give targeted feedback.
Anyway, based on what I saw:
Events leading to boss are too easy (for on-level content) - Steven said it was gonna be hard, they were probably gonna wipe...turns out the party was completely fine with Steven being mentally afk, pulling mobs ahead of the Tank, and manually clicking his skills/targets. They only needed 1 healer, even then it wasn't scary.
"Wave" Event needs work (or get rid of it) - Was less of a wave event and more of a wait-out-the-spawner situation. Was a slog to watch 1 or 2 mobs trickling in at a time, no timer, no end in sight. Wave events need to be scary, come to a climax, feel like you're being overwhelmed.
8-man Party Event turns into 40-man Raid? - What even is this? If this is a proper raid, the player count requirement needs to be static throughout the encounter. Not, okay we only need 8 people start the raid, but we're gonna need 40 to finish it. If this was just an event that procs a World Boss then it's slightly more acceptable. Could make for a decent guild event I guess. Still weird.
NO GOD MODE - Let the party wipe. Let the raid wipe. Let people die. We need to see game without training wheels to be able to give proper feedback.
No Steven PoV please - You guys did great last month with the Bard showcase, keeping Bucky in the driver seat. Dev only PoV for showcases please. Steven clicking his abilities/targets manually and chasing butterflies gives zero context to the capability of a class. It's hard to give feedback on combat when this is what we're working with.
Dragon breath (aerial and grounded) looks great - Stoked to see what they look like with polish. Hopefully they actually do damage/are scary abilities.
Dragon legs and tail are stubby - Claw and tail swipes were cool, but the stubby limbs didn't sell me.
Dragon physical abilities need more weight - Similar to issues I have with the Fighter showcase, physical abilities need more inertia. More stretch/lean/body movement. Physical stuff looks rigid.
Okay, first of all, WHY is this a one-party event? Especially if it spawns a raid boss at the end (not clear if these were linked). It would be so many times cooler for players if there were several party-scale related quests going on at the same time, so that more people from the node could engage with the story (or even the other 4 parties from your upcoming raid!). Especially since this is the capstone of one of those broader node story arcs.
Not only are you asking your raid to stand by while you get the cool story, the rest of your node that's hopefully been helping build up to this doesn't get to experience it either. I want to assume that that's what will happen, and what we saw is just one slice of it due to limitations of the stream demo, but there was no mention of this at all... Give many groups simultaneous objectives towards a larger shared goal (preferably with an awareness of each other's outcomes along the way), so more than one party gets to experience this story-arc tier event. Otherwise you'll just get a raid of zergs who are all along for the ride in order to experience your limited, party-focused story content.
This is the cost of shared, non-instanced, one-time or otherwise limited content with narrative significance. You need to build it for the entire node (and possibly neighboring nodes) worth of players to attempt, or 95% of players will never get to see it, and the ones that do are going to have a distorted experience due to the 'competition' (zerg) to join in. (Even PvP can't solve this. You can't flag on your Guild- and Node-mates.)
Again, maybe this is in fact already intended to be a single party's slice of a larger coordinated effort, and the stream just wasn't clear on that. I'll assume there's some method planned for the other 95% of the node's players (or even the other 80% of the raid) to engage with this content, and leave it at that.
Onward to the Citadel itself!
Where is the broken portcullis? This place was a fortification, built to be held during trying times. The entry-hall is a good choke point, but it's so large it would take an entire squad to hold. 24/7. It's unreasonably weak against sieges without some kind of gate. Obviously the gates were broken and have collapsed over time, but please add something to the ruins to show us that this was once a fortified stronghold meant to be held, rather than a ceremonial one built solely to impress. Other than that it looks great, on both an architectural and visual level. It definitely gives solid 'fortification' vibes once you're inside.
The next problem however, is that it feels desolate. The Flameforged we see are great and reasonably positioned. But the fact that they just spawn in when needed rather than actually living there and simply noticing your battle and rushing up to join in is jarring, especially with Ashes' wide viewing angles. You can't help but look around and see a completely barren Citadel. Maybe it's already made clear through earlier story arcs that they don't actually live here, and they just came for the ritual? But something does, even if its just creatures. Where are they? At very least we need more ghosts.
I'll leave the combat gameplay to @GrilledCheeseMojito. The main thing I noted was that everyone was simultaneously talking up how dangerous the Arsonist is, but no party member's HP was below 90% for the entire 40 seconds the Arsonist was alive, except at the very beginning, due to some other Flameforged while the Arsonist was still walking in. It was not clear why anyone was actually concerned about them. Was the group overleveled for this content? Did y'all just counter the Arsonist perfectly? I guess I'll assume that's what happened.
Onward to the Lady of the Rose.
I'd have loved to have seen some sign that the Flameforged had been doing something to prevent the Lady of the Rose from rising, but there's no hint of that. They're never even near her. Before, or after. She just pops up from her little pool when the Flameforged die, entirely unconnected.
I would really appreciate if she says something when she spawns (definitely not addressing the players though, and probably not while she actually fights), but I can understand the 'silent ghost' concept too. But her movement is no good. She has no life or character. We don't get to see the confident commander of the Queen's Guard stalk up the stairs of her citadel, full of purpose. Instead a static ghost just floats along a linear track as if someone just didn't bother to give her any animations or make any attempt to show her character. (I'm actually hoping this is exactly what happened and it's just still on the team's todo list.)
I have similar problems with the fight at the Orb, too. But first...
"He Who Beguiles" is such an edgelord name. It's almost on par with the "Orb of Ultimate Essence" in terms of "soulless name for a meaningless fantasy macguffin". Can they work? Yes. But you really have to set it up properly. I will assume this has been done in previous story stages. If not though: If your MacGuffin is the dragon egg everyone seems to be assuming, just call it a dragon egg! It's okay! It's simpler and less ostentatious, but that's not a bad thing. It's easier to connect with a dragon egg than "Fancy MacGuffin #4". The first has an instant meaning to everyone, and will still make sense if it has interesting magical effects. The second has no meaning to anyone until you've worked really hard to give it one.
But enough of that! Onward to the fight itself!
The Beguiler wasn't a bossfight? He just despawns at the end? I was so disappointed. I was totally expecting him to become a boss the party needed to deal with while the Rose finished her work. You could have done so much more with this!
He could have had the upper hand and the party needed to distract and disrupt him enough that the Lady of the Rose could catch up. The Flameforged could have been adds that made this more difficult and made it require actual battlefield management and control. It would have been amazing to have integrated the channeling with actual combat, where both the Rose and the Beguiler are active tactical components of the battle. Where you have to manage both their health and their focus, as they and their minions (the flameforged, and your party) vie for the upper hand. Rather than just... lets be honest... magical statues sitting in front of a macguffin.
Channeling combat is innately unengaging for anyone but the participants: the Lady and the Beguiler. Tactical combat around creating opportunities to channel, disrupting the opponent, and preventing enemies from keeping your channeler busy, is interesting for the people who are fighting the actual battle to control and manipulate the situation.
I'd say "it's a small thing..." but the two bosses of each team actually engaging with and being meaningful tactical factors in the combat would make a huge difference to the experience. Right now they're relegated to being "just someone to keep healed" and "could literally not have been there and no-one would even have noticed".
Even without any of that, with him not being a boss or even 'statue' for the party to fight or kill, there's no indication of why the Beguiler just... disappears and gives up I guess. At a minimum there needs to be some animation or other indication of what happened to end his battle with the Lady of the Rose.
This event's narrative concept is good, but its execution needs a lot of work.
*****
Thank you thank you thank you thank you! Bucky shielded the Lady of the Rose. Thank you! Bards can buff allied NPCs. I'm endlessly disappointed by games that don't allow this. I'm glad to see Ashes will. Thank you.
make this raid harder, more 1 shots spots and other RNG for players to avoid, and more harder hits 25%-80% damage hits from the dragon so it requires more movement skills from player and healers to heal plus tank roles.
There was nothing I saw that I really disliked, but I would have liked to have seen some more things present (which may or may not be coming down the shoot) I won't bother highlighting all things I liked (The fire SFX was great!) or reiterating what I have suggested before regarding environment/UI etc. Just some quick-fire suggestions and ideas this month from me
The "Harrowers March" area - Rather than pools of water, change them to pools of black, oily tar. It would add to the gloomy aesthetic and provide environmental hazards/considerations/interactivity for the dragon fight. (Think the La Brea Tar Pits in California)
When wading through the black tar it would slow your movement slightly and make you more susceptible to fire damage (You burn for longer) When the Dragon breathes fire, the pools would light, creating environmental hazards that need to be avoided.
It would make positioning, kiting, melee attacking etc, much more dynamic and interesting. The environment would become part of the fight and look much more epic. Verra should be a stage, not a screen. Bring in interactive elements as much as you can. It makes the world feel so much more alive!
Firebrand - When he "absorbed" from the Flame Minion Mobs and became enraged (gaining 11 stacks) this should be a visible change on the model. A size increase, a red glowing aura and a mega ball of fire! etc. Show the evolution and change through animation and SFX, not just through the UI.
Incorporate more mechanics that require people to work as a group, immersion is important but this is still a game at the end of the day.
The Citadel of The Steel Bloom - Add environmental colour, texture and interactability by having gatherables/fishables/huntables/collectables all over the place!
The water in the courtyard? Filled with special Koi! (If you have a rod) Some super special glowing trees, that can be chopped (If you have an axe) Lots of destructible crates, barrels and vases that contain some Coin or low-level Glint. Some low-level puzzles that reward recipes/maps/lore pages.
The Citadel (like all other POI) should themselves be, jam-packed treasure chests filled with gubbins and goodies. Walking into the main courtyard should be like walking into Willy Wonka's chocolate factory! You should feel like a kid in a candy store! What to collect? What to gather? There is only so much time! You only have so much space! You only have unlocked certain levels of skill! There is a mob trying to kill me ARGH!
POIs in general - Players should want to return to these places, multiple times for multiple reasons. Night and Day, Different Seasons, Group Numbers and Compositions etc. POIs should be gifts that keep on giving... enigmas, wrapped in riddles, wreathed in mystery and awe. More layers than an onion, more loot than you can carry and perhaps more danger than you (and your merry band of adventurers) can handle!
POIs should be the antithesis of "one and done", they should be "Been there... done that, let's go again and do more!"
Comments
I would like to see more/longer PoVs of other players. Yes, its funny to see Steven stumbling around but it gets old real quick. Proper gameplay of people who know how to play the class is far more interesting than Steven playing tourist, even when they die because they made a mistake or something.
I dont want to offend or anything, but its something that I roled my eyes at months ago, maybe even years. Now it starts to annoy, especially after the bard showcase.
Fire breath animation looks awesome! A bit too good though, because other fire animations didn't look as good and when you put them side by side you really see the difference.
Some people above mentioned poor visibility because of dust and sun - I think it looked fine, you could still see the target, you don't always have to have a perfect picture and distinguish every pixel change as in FPS games.
The graphics looked very nice and detailed.
I'd agree with the rest that fire NPCs don't match the environment.
NPCs aren't challenging. They dealt high damage on crit - yes, but unlike in Bard(I think) stream where they were draining hp and you had to interrupt that plus groups are tightly packed due to being in a building - that was challenging.
But if you hadn't mentioned that they are supposed to be challenging, I wouldn't think twice about it. In other words - these mobs were routine for a group of 8. Of course, mobs are just there for you to lvl up.
If you want every (group) of mobs to be challenging - that would be great but that would mean you need to select combos for every group of mobs so that players have to adapt for every encounter - would be cool but I don't think anyone actually expects that.
IMO:
Why not epic?
I think this is because we've seen all of these attack (skills) mechanics before. But maybe because it didn't feel epic. If I heard correctly then this is supposed to be lvl50 boss or doesn't matter, this is a top lvl boss for now. I'd expect it to bring a fiery hell upon attackers, smash and burn everything and since you let it summon aids - elementals - make them do something, they are not trees.
Part of not feeling an 'epic' fight is due to a lack of immersion. Perhaps this is because the dragon isn't in its intended location, but you could, for example, have it change the environment—making it dark, summoning a storm of fire, or leaving a permanent (or long-lasting) trail of flames to make positioning more challenging.
Conclusion:
I think you did a great job of sifting through all the MMOs out there, taking the best parts from them, and then adding a lot of great new mechanics of your own. But boss fight is still just a little more advanced than 10-15 years ago. Sure, that's how it is now in all other MMOs (hold the chains then do the damage or kill spawns otherwise boss will get buffs).
But are you the same as others or are you making something glorious?
You need to make one solid step forward and turn the boss fight from a "when" we kill him how we share the loot to "if" we kill him kind of situation.
Consider this example:
- Would you remember a boss fight where the boss dealt a lot of damage, requiring you to move away to avoid getting hurt, then continuing to deal damage?
- Or would you remember a boss fight where the entire raid team had to work together as one to succeed—a fight where you're hopeful of winning but not certain, knowing that 1-2 mistakes could lead to a cascade effect and eventually cause a defeat?
I don't have a really good example for this, but a couple of interesting ideas are here: Dynamic Environments in Raids: What Would You Like to See?Or maybe a simplistic version - boss summoned a few servants, they try to get to the point(portal), if they reach it then after 5 mins you will get a small group of defenders, if defenders survive then they cast a spell dealing damage now and causing next event and so on. It could be not as linear as this but I can't come up with a good example right now.
Overall, everything looks good, but you've set very high standards for yourself, and I'm judging your game based on the level you set yourself.
Couldn't come up with a funny joke but I'll still post this:
The spell visuals, lighting, contrast, and particle effects just don't sit well with me. But that could also be a personal issue since we all have individual tastes. I just still think it takes me out of the immersion, seeing these relatively cheap spell effects with no lighting impact on the close environment, especially in dark places.
Regarding the dragon fight, I really like the look of the dragon, the sounds, and the fire design. But even though I know this is still an alpha state, I wish the dragon had way more different interactions and was actually smarter than just standing there, waiting for something to happen. You give him a cool entrance by flying onto the spot, but then nothing happens, and also the background looks pretty boring to me if you're not fighting him in front of the castle.
I also think he's on the ground way too much, doing some basic attacks that don't even stun or knock back. Like come on, if you get hit by a giant dragon claw, you shouldn't just stand there like, "Oh, it just did some damage and went through me, and I can keep attacking from the same spot." No stunning, knockback, knock-up, or anything like that, at least from what I could see.
Also, for being such a powerful dragon boss, he doesn't really present himself like one. And I think you can see by the player's behavior that most of the time, they’re just standing around him, not really having to look out for specific attacks or interactions, which makes it not so special after all.
He has wings, so why not use them as an advantage and do a lot more stuff with them? Flying high, doing some big fireballs, like charging himself up after he lets out a big scream in the air, focusing on healers and damage dealers with the fireballs, and then doing a charge attack onto the ground, knocking back tanks, for example.
He should have way more CC interactions, where the fight can get chaotic, rather than the players just attacking like bots, not going for a dodge roll or something like that.
Also, when charging up in the air, why not make all close targets get thrown away by the gust of wind? Or make a huge wing kick that stuns people on the ground beneath it.
Or make him grab the highest damage dealer by stats (the one who has done the most damage to him so far) every 1 or 2 minutes and fly up with them, and if players can't deal a certain amount of damage in that time, the player just gets dropped to the ground and is one-shot. It would not only be hilarious and impressive but would also make other players more respectful when the dragon comes close to them.
The last thing I want to mention is that I'm kind of sad that the environment has no influence on the fight. For example, specific items or structures could help you with certain mechanics. I also don't like that the dragon takes the same damage no matter where you aim or hit it. It would add so much more to the fight if, for example, you had to attack the legs so they buckle, and then you could deal more damage because a weak spot becomes attackable.
But as I said, I know this is an alpha state, and I'm not disappointed or anything. I'm just trying to provide some feedback and ideas that, in my opinion, would make the boss fight an experience that won't be forgotten.
This is the one thing that sticks out to me in the showcase. This is a magic using powerful dragon. Even with the age of the dragon as young, Firebrand has clearly mastered some magic use.
I would want to see the dragon challenge the players from the start instead of just standing there eating grass. Being aware of groups of characters and responding. Like early before the raid forms, as soon as the group exits the citadel to see the dragon. Firebrand should unleash a meteor shower or magma bomb towards the party.
Instead of just letting a large group of players stand around and strategize, form their raid group. Firebrand should already be responding to this large group standing around over there using something like artillery to soften up the enemy before they reach the front lines. It would have been more closely becoming epic to see that raid group have to dodge around and be aware of meteors and magma bombs coming in on them while standing so close to the beast. Or maybe a minor summon of sending a elemental or two or three into the group as they approached.
I think that helps set the stage a little better that Firebrand is not only going to try to smash you. Firebrand can cast spells so be ready for that
What excites you about playing and interacting within the Citadel, its enemies, and Firebrand?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
More Feedback for sure when I faced him the first time...
eu-int-kds-in-aoc
Apart from that little things in the UI. I hope Nameplates can be activated and deactivated for players and enemies.
As for the damage numbers, I'd like to see the critical hits/heals have more impact and be better emphasized.
Good Work!!!
I think a Mix is good. Standing Monsters and Patrolling monsters.
Make the dragon boss head towards the parent node of the quest that spawned it and wreak havoc. This would make the "threat" of the world boss more real.
Like Smaug totalling Laketown.
Dragon Encounter :
Your designers forgot about WING BUFFET. Make the dragon use Wing Buffet or the reverse to push/pull enemies away from their cleave direction.
Make mechanics deal % Total HP damage. Damage should scale out of the enrage buff.
Make the boss "level up for the encounter duration" (like the Mandokir boss in WoW classic) when killing players to counteract ressurrection spam.
Please fix the stats as soon as possible. This is probably the least informative stat profile I have ever seen in a game. All these nebulous ratings that requires the player to do math to even know what they do. What is 6 crit power rating, what is 111 additive weapon fire damage rating. Just give us exactly what these stats are doing with flat values and percentages. Looking at these items I have 0 idea how much damage they are giving me or how much mitigation. It is impossible to know. Tell us what damage Physical power rating gives, Tell us what 70 attack speed gives. Make it reflect automatically on the weapon's base stats tooltip. Right now the items just look like boring stat sticks.
When you look at an item in a game like Path of Exile you know exactly what that item is giving you. If a stat modifies weapon damage it is reflected on the weapon's base damage. If I have added fire damage it gives you a nice Red Text on the item saying the fire damage it does. All these ratings that require the player to know some formula to get any idea of the function is simply bad design. Some of these stats are fine but having all of them like this means you have to guess what a good item is.
On another note the tooltip does not tell you what item type these things are for some reason. The only way to know is the tiny picture. We need to know the base stats, weapon type, Modifiers to base stats and how much they modify if you hold shift or a more info key.
Items and gear are one of the most important things to get right. If you are giving players items that just cause confusion or requires them to tab out of the game and run a simulator you are failing step 1. Clarity should be your number 1 priority. This needs to be done very soon or it undermines your core function crafting systems.
I made up some examples of what I feel would be an improved tooltip. There is more visual clarity on how much damage the weapon is providing you along with some potential interactions with weapon skill points. For the example I copied the Cindersinger bow stat profile but with more clear indication on what you are getting from each stat. (I used a great Path of Exile tooltip editor because it was very fast and easy to use so excuse that.)
Watching the fighting was, quite honestly, somewhat boring. The overblown player effects paired with the empty, flat arena and a dragon that had no standard cleave attack, just made the whole thing not look threatening from a visual perspective, even when I saw hp bars going down in the UI.
I really think the visual design is going to need severe adjustments when there’s next to no significant differentiation between hostile mob effects and player-cast effects. Or, even worse, if the hostile effects are overpowered by the friendly effects during combat.
My thoughts on the dragon raid :
1. Some dragon animations look outdated and not enough weighted. Example, when he lands on the ground after flying and throwing fire, he should turn around with momentum with his wings flapping and having some synergy, not like a 360° round table showoff.
2. The dragon should be agressive. He should definitely attack people as soon as they are visible in their screen. Why the hell is he standing there still while other people are looking at him ? He should be ferocious and flapping wings, or walking towards them with conviction of hurting them. The raid SHOULD start as soon as he lands on the ground (and he sees enemies).
3. Mechanics look great for a start, but I think they should add more mechanics that favorise comprehensive decision making and strategy. I have a good example by what I mean. Killing the ads one by one is too generic simplistic. They should add more mechanics into that. We saw that the dragon consumes fire from them at a certain point. I think thoses ads that are on fire should be invulnerable until we extinguish their fire (by utilizing crowd control skills like push/pull them into the water near them or freeze them) and then we kill them. And if we don't succeed by killing them, the dragon pull them off the water to consume them to gain more power. All this within a time limit. WE SHOULD USE our CC skills on PvE encounters. Make breakbars for the dragon that we have to destroy by CCing him just like GW2 so it stuns him and make him invulnerable. I won't say this enough, we need more mechanics into a single boss fight.
EDIT : I figured out that, for a level 25 raid boss, this is pretty neat as mechanics. But I definitely want to see more complexity for endgame bosses
4. The dragon entering the world isn't cinematic enough. EVERYONE that is near the area should have an instanced cinematic (that they can skip) of the dragon entering the world.
5. I REALLLYY hope that we at least get some individual drops if we defeat the dragon. I won't be wasting 20 minutes of gameplay for not having anything in my inventory afterward. It should feel rewarding.
-I'm concerned if this is the level of "Epicness" for a Named Dragon specially if there is only 13~15 world bosses. I'm ok this is using the Elder Dragon of Flame skin from A1 but if a Named Dragon uses the same skin as others it doesn't feel Epic enough. It just feels like another dragon. In the future if named dragons use the same skin as the Elder Dragons of Tundra/Wood, give them something different, like horn shapes, scars, face shape, etc.
-For a Young Adult Dragon the size is decent, i liked it. But I hope there are bigger dragons!
-For world "threatening" bosses i expect at least region wide temporary visual and audio "notifications" that are specific for each World Boss spawns.
-Not enough background info about Firebrand. We needed some lore drop of him during the stream. The name atm means nothing.
-Clear phases, i liked that there was a distinct DPS raid check. Wish there was another raid wide mechanic that if done correctly it would stagger him.
-Make world boss corpses stay in the world for far longer, at least multiple hours. It's a visual indicator that a world boss has been killed and it can be used as an information tool for next re-spawns(if they are time based). It also becomes something intriguing for those who don't know what it is, as it will create social interactions from those who are curious.
Overall the stream was good, i felt a bit disappointed but it's my own fault for having such high expectations. I thought we were previewing something bigger/higher level in this dev update. Something like Valakas or Deathwing but the Ashes of Creation version :P
Right direction for World Bosses.
A separate issue, but I feel like the saturation of the red for the mob name plates is too saturated. That or there's not enough of an outline. It can make the letters run together and hard to read.
Anytime a dragon of that mass physically strikes a PC, that PC should fly or get knocked back with the equivalent force.
Of all of the traits of dragons, intelligence stands out. That intelligence should show itself during a fight.
First, use of environment. The area of the fight was desolate. That means dirt and debris the dragon could use to its advantage. Dirt/dust particle effects seemed to be random, and unrelated to the dragon. I get it that it’s Alpha. Similarly, as some have pointed out, some environment effects made it difficult to see. Therefore the dragon would use that to its advantage. I also think the encounter with this dragon might look better at night with the dragon using darkness as cover.
An intelligent dragon might use more hit and run tactics and target the same PCs that a PVP player might. If the PCs are amassed then it might body slam that area but quickly move to switch back to a more selective targeting approach.
The area in question might have worked better with a necromatic red dragon. That keeps with the theme of intelligence and utilizing the environment.
If my understanding is correct the scenario for this dragon fight was due to the recovery of the artifact, which I believe was stated to be the dragon’s egg. If that’s the scenario and therefore the mission of the dragon, then why a full blown battle? Why would the dragon not sweep down, snatch the PC holding the egg, and then fly off to its lair? The epic raid could continue there. Or that entire sequence of events creates a new event. So you could set it up as a dragon fight, raise an army of the dead, snatch the MacGuffin, and fly back to the lair for a snack. The raid then turns into an epic battle with the fallen. Throw in a corruption element and there could be remnants of the army that are unleashed on the world for more events and content. I also like the idea of villains that live longer than one encounter. In fact, taking down such a villain should be very difficult to make it more memorable and meaningful. For example, having players create strategies to interact with the dragon AI from a more strategic level.
Finally, did I hear correctly that this egg is this young dragon’s and the egg became this epic orb 1000 years ago. If that’s the case, how old is “young” for AoC dragons? And if this dragon has survived over 1000 years, then it should be much wiser. Or was this dragon suspended in time by those who took the egg?
- Unlike FFXIV and Lost Ark (which ik are different type of mmo in terms of graphics and target audiences), this game’s fights are not as captivating. The dragon fight, in particular, felt repetitive
- Outdated animations like the dragon’s wings or that green lady or even the fire from those supports
- The dragon and the other monsters stand still until engaged, and the dragon's death animation is unimpressive
- The player's characters dont look very appealing to me idk why, also all of the characters looked kinda same
- When the dragon breathes fire, the terrain should be altered to reflect the damage. This change should be persistent throughout the entire battle with the affected area remaining scorched/burned. Also when the dragon steps on the water there are no animations and when the dragon lands or moves his tail it doesnt knock ppl off
- For the dungeon (idk what the other dungeons are like tho) we need some other challanges instead of just killing mobs, for the dragon as well bcs just hitting the dragon and run from the fire is boring imo and it is like any other mmo out there
- There should be some impact to the fight when players die, not just reviving them in no time like nothing happened
- When the dragon (or other bosses) appears maybe a cinematic should start or smthing, if u dont look up in the sky u dont even see that a dragon is coming
- Separate from this, the "64 classes" doesn't seem like a good idea for me alltho i understand the concept behind it and ik the second class will just influecne a few spells.
Overall im kinda dissapointed, it doesn't look bad, but it doesn’t look very good either. Those saying the dragon fight was 10/10 might be biased due to their investment in the game, whether through early access payments or involvement as testers. Right now i dont see why someone would leave their current playing mmo to come on AoC, but this is only based on what ive seen in that preview, i know its still in Alpha and there are a lot of things that will be improved or changed and also a lot of stuff that we havent seen yet.
I would also like to know the limit on battle rezzes. Seems like you kept going around rezzing everyone without limit. Is that GM powers or were you actually rezzing them?
I love the music, and I'm really impressed with what you're doing with the networking tech. However, I'd like to share some thoughts on the video:
1. Dungeon
1.1 Feeling and Atmosphere: The graphics are solid, and the music is incredible—seriously, I loved it. However, the "citadel" feels too small to create a truly immersive experience. When I think of dungeons that have left a lasting impact, Karazhan and Blackrock Depths set the standard. Exploring those labyrinths took me months, maybe even years, to fully grasp their complexity. I'm not sure if this was your intention with the "citadel," but to truly immerse players, the game needs vast, intricate spaces like enormous castles, dungeons, cellars, and natural caves. Considering the PvX nature of the game, creating these expansive environments is crucial. I want to have those "Oh, sh*t!" moments while exploring, whether it’s encountering mythical creatures (rare spawns) or stumbling upon fellow explorers in the heat of battle, suddenly finding myself in a "hot zone."
1.2 Pulls & Mechanics: I’ve shared my thoughts on the outdated threat mechanics. It’s no longer acceptable for a single mob to suddenly decide it’s a good idea to attack 15 heavily-armed players. That might have worked 20 years ago, but in the age of AI, it feels ridiculous. I expect a more realistic defense system, where intruders trigger alarms and players must navigate dungeons carefully, using various spells to disable patrols (hexes, saps, stuns, roots, or just big damage if needed).
1.3 Boss Fights: The boss fights seem stuck in the same hard-coded patterns we’ve seen in WoW for the past 20 years. Frankly, it’s boring. I was hoping that after all these years, there’d be more innovation. In my vision, boss fights should feel more like PvP encounters—each opponent’s type should influence the fight's nature, skillset, and tactics. The power, focus, and playstyle should vary from boss to boss, making each fight a unique challenge.
2. Combat: I know it’s early to discuss class design, but please aim for something with the depth of WoW Classic, the playstyle and dynamics of BDO, and the complexity of WoW's rotations.
I remain hopeful that you’ll grant me my wish: full access key (alpha, beta, and omega)... yesterday..
Also rewatching again, was it the cultist who took the dragon egg/orb of ultimate essence from the dragon? Would then make more sense with respect to age of the dragon.
Dare to make clear, bold decisions. It doesn't always have to look perfect, as long as the gameplay purpose of the design choice is apparent, and the result is fun and there's a clear player decisionmaking impulse caused by it.
I want to see more bosses and dungeons use genuinely unique mechanics.
Splitting up groups as described here, is still my favourite one, because it genuinely changes how you optimise your decisionmaking and makes you think hard about the fight. Obviously you won't be able to utilise that everywhere, otherwise it will become a stale gimmick quickly. But that's the type of idea I'd want you to draw inspiration from.
For an idea of what that might look like converted to open-world boss mechanics:
Gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination.
This stuff is basic and we've all seen it before and it's not challenging to coordinated groups, but it's the bread and butter on top of which other more nuanced balancing mechanics start to feel advanced, rather than just throwing higher stats and numbers at the thing until it works.
Once these sorts of gimmicks are in place, I hope you will also apply more PvX-targeted gimmicks on higher-level bosses and dungeons.
Here you can really let your creativity run wild, because most of these can be circumvented through diplomacy or higher group numbers, so if players complain about the balance, you can just tell them they need to cooperate more.
Too many of these will become tiresome, and the game needs to give players a solid idea what they are supposed to do about the gimmick, so it doesn't just become an uncoordinated mess, but this is the sort of direction I think you need to think in when designing dungeons and bosses.
I also think the fights would be more interesting in general, if classes could be more specialised in stats. Less health on specialised squishy nukes, but higher defensive buffs or damage-redirection-siphoning granted to the party by tanks. Less damage on tanks and healers. The usual. It's a bit too blended right now, and it makes for less player skill challenge, and instead just a "is our damage sufficient, and does our healer's gear suffice to keep up with the damage we take?" challenge.
For non-boss farming I don't need unique mechanics, but here I'd love to see opportunities for low-level players to be rewarded (perhaps up to 100% XP bonus - which should naturally be drastically be diminished by their slower progression through the area) for braving areas significantly outside of their recommended level range.
(This would need to come in addition to the necessary protections in place against higher-level players powerlevelling their friends; honestly a script checking for the highest-level player involved in the fight and reducing the share for significantly underlevelled players efore the loot is distributed should mostly do the trick...Alternatively a solid formula to calculate the heals, buffs and damage that contributed the most to the takedown would be appreciated, if it doesn't cost a lot of server performance.)
I also have the feedback on the graphics that a lot of people have been discussing:
I agree that the dust is way too much for me and kills the contrast, so I'd likely try to get rid of it by turning that special effect completely off.
My suggestion for making it less disruptive, but retaining the mood it is meant to create, is to strictly use it in small select locations only. Mountain tops, the entrance to a temple, sunny hills, very specific weather conditions.
In the dragon pit, it could be good, if it stopped at shoulder-height for players, making the sky more visible.
Reduce the window where this sort of dust/fog currently shows up by 80%, and it'll be a very nice mood-generating tool.
I understand why people like Steven love it the way it is, and I'm fine just turning it off, but if you want me to keep it on, that's what you'd have to do.
without one shot mechanics this is just going to get rolled through by organized groups
Firebrand fight was very interesting and fun to watch. Hoping that the fight will actually last longer than it did, think it was a very short boss fight, especially considering during release there will be a very large amount of people going for it and not just the one raid. If you are the initial raid fighting the boss and are attacked by another raid trying to steal it, is there a timer for the health regen of the boss? Is the idea to balance defending our kill and defending against the attackers?
Also agree with some of the things mentioned before that when he lands I would expect some ground shaking or knees bending by the dragon. Also, some slight AOE indicators, and more tactical aspects to the fight, wind gust from the wings causing a stagger or knockback, maybe rear up on his hind legs and stomp down to cause damage/knockdown to the close range attackers, would like to see more things to dodge and pay attention to. Overall, I thought it looked great, looking forward to testing soon.
I think with regards to Firebrand it is as i expected it to be which is good and bad. The biggest miss for me on the boss was there wasn't anything that felt unique to Ashes.
As for the Citadel, I feel we didn't see much of anything outside of rooms and fighting areas. The space seemed very small and empty which is sad as i thing this ruin or buildings have been the most interesting from an architecture perspective. The courtyard area where the 1st wave fight took place looked rather empty an not filled out with other NPC, and general stuff to be expected. This was a showcase of a pocket dungeon and it felt more like a POI instead. We walked in main door, fought some pulls in a hall, went and fought mobs in the courtyard, up some stairs and wave fight to get item. There was nothing that made you feel this was a challenging area or an area to explore and such. Leading more to the POI feel. Compare this to Tower of C and you don't get the same vibe. One of the coolest things was the bloom in the middle of the building but we could not see anything due to the lighting.
I think lighting in general needs to be addressed also as last few streams lighting and colors seem washed out and faded, and dark areas are hard to see and full light blinds you so you cant see anything.
What excites you about playing and interacting within the Citadel, its enemies, and Firebrand?
World boss seems to be cool and and as expected. The unknow factor was never there for me to see so maybe this will be the different summon of him as Steven eluded too. Citadel fight didn't seem to match what the place should be. I cant get the "oh this is a cool POI" vs what this is an awesome dungeon. We didn't really see much of the place and what we did see fell flat.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Citadel of the Steel Bloom & Firebrand Preview?
The lack of content shown in the citadel and the lack of mob population and size of the area are all of concern. This area feels and looks like it plays very small in nature.
Firebrand just seems like your run of the mill dragon fight nothing special or Ashes twist on things.
Overall i think this showcase was very hit or miss. The design and artwork both for citadel and firebrand look good but are hard to enjoy and really be immersed in the world of verra. The areas felt unfinished and missing both basic furnishings and NPCs in the area to make it feel alive, threat or a higher level area. Biggest issues outside of the two main topics was for sure lighting and ambient items (fire caldrons) that are pulling your attention from the world or story. The back to back wave fights to summon the lady and then the channel battle could become a boring game play loop for some I'm sure.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/4bFySwxS
PRESENTATION
- The first impression in the video isn't good. The angle of the sun shining over everything was so oppressive that I was literally physically squinting my eyes. I want to tell you whether or not I like or dislike the design of the fortress itself, but I can't because the sun was getting in the way for most of it.
- While I appreciate the lore explanations in the beginning, I feel you were meandering way too much before engaging with the actual content. I found myself getting impatient and skipped ahead a couple minutes in the video to find you were still just randomly talking. I'd prefer a more concise format for this type of stream, where you give some lore context to explain "why this is here" and such, but then go engage with the content immediately - the content itself is what I'm here to see, not a casually-paced conversation.
- I understand that this is WIP but I feel like if you have a big desolate field outside this fortress, the render distance for enemies and some smaller details should be scaled higher up. Otherwise, a wide open space like that works against you and it just feels empty.
- I did actually rather like the garden area inside the fortress WHEN I GOT TO SEE IT (the sun issue still applied in there), and I think a great solution here would be to make the sky around this area perpetually overcast. Not foggy, mind you, just 'spooky cloudy'. That could serve as an interesting aesthetic contrast with the walkway in the fortress and how nice the garden spot looked (when I got to see it). It would tell me, "this used to be a place of beauty but now things feel off", which seems to be what you were going for with the field outside.
- Pursuant to the sky being overcast, give the enemies some more prominent glow effects, possibly some bloom lighting, which would naturally be emphasized with a darker sky palette.
COMBAT
- I'm finding that perhaps the combat camera from FFXI has spoiled me a bit. In that game, targeting an enemy (or party member for that matter) and then 'locking on' (not just targeting itself) will cause the camera to focus on them. While this might sound like a small thing, it causes each individual enemy to have a distinct feeling of weight and presence in the world. Right now, the basic mobs in the path up to the altar feel disposable to me, like generic Dynasty Warriors enemies, and this was reinforced by the fact that I never felt you were in any danger.
- I WANT to feel like I'm in danger if I'm infiltrating a big hostile fortress. For argument's sake, let's say the front gate being opened from the start was fair (the enemies were explicitly invading to take over the place, so I'll give that a pass). The way this is set up, it feels like your party is a persistent force that the enemies can't really stop or even meaningfully threaten, and can only slow down.
- In a fortress raid like this, I want to feel like I'm in danger. I want to feel like I'm deep in enemy territory, that I and my group are doing a pinpoint infiltration of somewhere dangerous, and that we need to be very careful because if we draw too much attention to ourselves, we could easily bite off more than we can chew. I want there to be a sense of risk. I dislike the power fantasy of being able to just chew through hoards of weaker mobs. I want each enemy to have more presence and thought put into its design than that.
SUGGESTIONS FOR COURTYARD FIGHTS
- As it stands, it looks like your group didn't need to care about positioning much at all. The moment where Steve could just pull back and take a stroll around for a good minute or two before more enemies spawned was especially egregious. I think adding positioning and terrain considerations would help a lot. Suggestions follow:
- Make every enemy self-destruct a few seconds after they die, and MAKE THE DAMAGE HIGH ENOUGH THAT YOU NEED TO CARE. Make it so you need to be careful of when and where (and how!) you kill enemies, since a self-destructing corpse at a bad moment could cause your party's numbers to work against you and hurt everyone badly.
- Since the enemies are being empowered by a Dangerous Flame Relic, add some more torches throughout the area (the initial walkway before the garden seems fine) and then give them the ability to cause plumes of fire to erupt from the torches periodically. Again, make the damage matter. It's another positional concern - things like this can cause enemies to feel like more than the sum of their parts, since the angles you can safely fight at become limited and your options change accordingly.
- Having to get all the way to the center of the garden to summon the Lady of the Rose seems lame. In order to prevent players from being able to stroll around the arena like Steve did, perhaps trigger the event by summoning her at the BEGINNING of the fortress (perhaps just outside it - if you want, have the gate closed until you summon her, and then she magically opens it to begin the quest). She then advances - a bit slower than her speed here but not slow enough to be frustrating - and you need to protect her as she does so. I know that escort missions can be frustrating, but the combination of restricted terrain plus enemies being spawned at HER pace rather than your own would make things much more tense. In the interest of fairness, make her immune or highly resistant to AoE damage for the purposes of this.
- When she gets to the altar, have the ritual thing take less time, since you had to escort her up. I understand this part is WIP, but make the animation of her cancelling out the artifact's power more interesting. Perhaps a visual effect that gets stronger over time to dynamically show how close she is to completing it.
- The most egregious part of the whole stream to me was when Steve picked up the artifact, which turns out to be a DRAGON EGG, and then the dragon just shows up and perches outside and waits around placidly long enough that someone (I forget if it was Steve himself) jokingly called it an herbivore. THIS IS NOT HOW A DRAGON SHOULD REACT WHEN SOMEONE STEALS ITS EGG. That should provoke an immediate and merciless response. It should be the most potent way you could EVER provoke a dragon. Once you take a dragon's egg, either you or the dragon is GOING TO DIE. Pursuant to that...
SUGGESTIONS FOR THE DRAGON
- Instead of having the dragon just plop outside and wait there in what I consider a total loss of immersion, let's instead cause interacting with the dragon egg to trigger some sort of warning that you'll enter a boss fight once you grab it, and then give you the option to grab it right away or prep first. After you grab the egg, you get teleported to an instanced arena, where a scaled down version of that dragon appears and fights you immediately (perhaps after a brief intro cutscene) because you took its egg. You win, you get to keep the egg, and that item becomes a per-requisite for spawning the larger dragon outside the fortress.
- Assuming you scale down the current dragon a bit - reduce his HP, size, and damage output by, let's say, 50% (totally arbitrary guess-number), I'd consider that to be fine for a standard-party bossfight. Have the adds explode on death like in the courtyard, and make it so when the dragon uses his sweeping fire breath attack, plumes of fire erupt from the adds. I'd consider that mostly satisfactory as a basic boss design. As for the actual raid dragon shown in the video...
- I was very disappointed. The dragon's attacks lacked a sense of power and feedback. And I see no reason you couldn't just run away from it. So after the big dragon spawns, let's have him make a really big ring of flame around the field that serves as an arena. Maybe give a telegraphed warning (whether visual, dialogue popup, or both) that a Big Nasty Boss is about to spawn so players who don't want to engage with the content have time to flee.
- The dragon's attacks lacked a sense of power, and most importantly, FEEDBACK. A dragon of that size, I expect every big swipe of its claws to stagger people around it from the sheer force of the swing. I expect its tailspins to knock people off their feet. I expect its 'stomp down from the air' attacks to do the same. I want being hit by a giant dragon to FEEL like being hit by a giant dragon.
- Make player positioning matter more! It's one of the most interesting tools you have for a fight like this! When the dragon rises up and then uses its flames on the ground in a straight line, have that cause a lingering wall of fire that lasts (arbitrary number) 30 seconds or so, and divides up the arena. You can cross that wall of fire, but doing so will cause you to take a lot of damage and get debuffed (perhaps a defense drop). Since that move is very telegraphed, you have plenty of time to avoid the initial firebreath, but you need to quickly choose how to position yourself. From what I'm aware of, every class has some sort of ranged ability, so I wouldn't call this unfair on a design level.
- In FFXI, Wyrms (the Big Dragon equivalent) have an ability called Spike Flail. Basically, if you're attacking the dragon from the back and piss it off, it can do a VERY powerful tail attack that is gonna kill or nearly kill everyone near it. Basically, this means that in FFXI, you have to choose between staying in the range of a dragon's teeth, claws, and breath attacks, or risk a very nasty Spike Flail if you try to 'cheat' and avoid those by attacking from the back. On that note, I'd give the tail the ability to attack independently of the dragon's other moves, so as to facilitate this. If anybody the tail is engaging pulls hate, a very powerful tail slam can follow and seriously mess them up. Make this the dragon's strongest damage source by far.
- Have the raid-scale dragon start spawning adds much earlier; I'd go for about 80% health instead of 50%. Gives you enough time to get used to his basic attacks, and then he immediately ramps it up.
- Arrange the cooldown of the flying breath attack such that the dragon can form two walls of fire at the same time, but probably not more than that. Apply this effect to the smaller instanced boss-dragon I proposed, just again, on a smaller scale than the raid boss.
- Make it so the dragon can flap its wings very powerfully and cause various debuffs for anyone close enough to get hit by the shockwave - such as blinding, stun, paralysis, etc. Adds some more dynamicism to the fight.
FINAL NOTES
Maybe I'm being mean, maybe I'm being unfair, but I feel like... if you took the CURRENT raid dragon, scaled him down to, say, being a bit larger than a horse, and removed his ability to spawn adds, then you'd have what I would consider a perfectly acceptable standard enemy. Like, there's Griffon-type enemies in FFXI that I would love to see function this way, and an area full of these mini-dragon-things would be great! Perfectly good standard enemy for an upper-mid level area of your world.
Basically, I think that the current form of the raid dragon, scaled down in such a way, should represent the level of thought and care that goes into EVERY mob design, just as a bottom line. The lack of feedback on his claw swipes and stomps is fine this way - it's a much smaller enemy. The lack of a lingering firewall is fine - the smaller size means it can't do that move on anywhere near the same scale to begin with.
In FFXI, I feel like the designers put a lot of thought into individual enemy types/species, making them very detailed in a vacuum, and then they just put a variety of those enemy types into the same space, gave them aggression behaviors that made logical sense, and then from there things naturally became more than the sum of their parts. Fighting a tiger, an ent, and a goblin all at the same time is possible, and you need to pay attention to the unique behaviors of each enemy. That's what I'd expect as a bare minimum level of effort for good PVE content, or engaging fortress raids, or whathaveyou.
I want to like this content. I really do. I want you to do better than this.
I want to have to care.
Anyway, based on what I saw:
- Shaiya circa 2007-2008 - Guild Wars 2 circa 2014-2016 - ArcheAge circa 2016-2018
- Black Desert 2019-2024 - ESO 2021-2024 - FFXIV(fake pvp)2021-2022
Not only are you asking your raid to stand by while you get the cool story, the rest of your node that's hopefully been helping build up to this doesn't get to experience it either. I want to assume that that's what will happen, and what we saw is just one slice of it due to limitations of the stream demo, but there was no mention of this at all... Give many groups simultaneous objectives towards a larger shared goal (preferably with an awareness of each other's outcomes along the way), so more than one party gets to experience this story-arc tier event. Otherwise you'll just get a raid of zergs who are all along for the ride in order to experience your limited, party-focused story content.
This is the cost of shared, non-instanced, one-time or otherwise limited content with narrative significance. You need to build it for the entire node (and possibly neighboring nodes) worth of players to attempt, or 95% of players will never get to see it, and the ones that do are going to have a distorted experience due to the 'competition' (zerg) to join in. (Even PvP can't solve this. You can't flag on your Guild- and Node-mates.)
Again, maybe this is in fact already intended to be a single party's slice of a larger coordinated effort, and the stream just wasn't clear on that. I'll assume there's some method planned for the other 95% of the node's players (or even the other 80% of the raid) to engage with this content, and leave it at that.
Onward to the Citadel itself!
Where is the broken portcullis? This place was a fortification, built to be held during trying times. The entry-hall is a good choke point, but it's so large it would take an entire squad to hold. 24/7. It's unreasonably weak against sieges without some kind of gate. Obviously the gates were broken and have collapsed over time, but please add something to the ruins to show us that this was once a fortified stronghold meant to be held, rather than a ceremonial one built solely to impress. Other than that it looks great, on both an architectural and visual level. It definitely gives solid 'fortification' vibes once you're inside.
The next problem however, is that it feels desolate. The Flameforged we see are great and reasonably positioned. But the fact that they just spawn in when needed rather than actually living there and simply noticing your battle and rushing up to join in is jarring, especially with Ashes' wide viewing angles. You can't help but look around and see a completely barren Citadel. Maybe it's already made clear through earlier story arcs that they don't actually live here, and they just came for the ritual? But something does, even if its just creatures. Where are they? At very least we need more ghosts.
I'll leave the combat gameplay to @GrilledCheeseMojito. The main thing I noted was that everyone was simultaneously talking up how dangerous the Arsonist is, but no party member's HP was below 90% for the entire 40 seconds the Arsonist was alive, except at the very beginning, due to some other Flameforged while the Arsonist was still walking in. It was not clear why anyone was actually concerned about them. Was the group overleveled for this content? Did y'all just counter the Arsonist perfectly? I guess I'll assume that's what happened.
Onward to the Lady of the Rose.
I'd have loved to have seen some sign that the Flameforged had been doing something to prevent the Lady of the Rose from rising, but there's no hint of that. They're never even near her. Before, or after. She just pops up from her little pool when the Flameforged die, entirely unconnected.
I would really appreciate if she says something when she spawns (definitely not addressing the players though, and probably not while she actually fights), but I can understand the 'silent ghost' concept too. But her movement is no good. She has no life or character. We don't get to see the confident commander of the Queen's Guard stalk up the stairs of her citadel, full of purpose. Instead a static ghost just floats along a linear track as if someone just didn't bother to give her any animations or make any attempt to show her character. (I'm actually hoping this is exactly what happened and it's just still on the team's todo list.)
I have similar problems with the fight at the Orb, too. But first...
"He Who Beguiles" is such an edgelord name. It's almost on par with the "Orb of Ultimate Essence" in terms of "soulless name for a meaningless fantasy macguffin". Can they work? Yes. But you really have to set it up properly. I will assume this has been done in previous story stages. If not though: If your MacGuffin is the dragon egg everyone seems to be assuming, just call it a dragon egg! It's okay! It's simpler and less ostentatious, but that's not a bad thing. It's easier to connect with a dragon egg than "Fancy MacGuffin #4". The first has an instant meaning to everyone, and will still make sense if it has interesting magical effects. The second has no meaning to anyone until you've worked really hard to give it one.
But enough of that! Onward to the fight itself!
The Beguiler wasn't a bossfight? He just despawns at the end? I was so disappointed. I was totally expecting him to become a boss the party needed to deal with while the Rose finished her work. You could have done so much more with this!
He could have had the upper hand and the party needed to distract and disrupt him enough that the Lady of the Rose could catch up. The Flameforged could have been adds that made this more difficult and made it require actual battlefield management and control. It would have been amazing to have integrated the channeling with actual combat, where both the Rose and the Beguiler are active tactical components of the battle. Where you have to manage both their health and their focus, as they and their minions (the flameforged, and your party) vie for the upper hand. Rather than just... lets be honest... magical statues sitting in front of a macguffin.
Channeling combat is innately unengaging for anyone but the participants: the Lady and the Beguiler. Tactical combat around creating opportunities to channel, disrupting the opponent, and preventing enemies from keeping your channeler busy, is interesting for the people who are fighting the actual battle to control and manipulate the situation.
I'd say "it's a small thing..." but the two bosses of each team actually engaging with and being meaningful tactical factors in the combat would make a huge difference to the experience. Right now they're relegated to being "just someone to keep healed" and "could literally not have been there and no-one would even have noticed".
Even without any of that, with him not being a boss or even 'statue' for the party to fight or kill, there's no indication of why the Beguiler just... disappears and gives up I guess. At a minimum there needs to be some animation or other indication of what happened to end his battle with the Lady of the Rose.
This event's narrative concept is good, but its execution needs a lot of work.
*****
Thank you thank you thank you thank you! Bucky shielded the Lady of the Rose. Thank you! Bards can buff allied NPCs. I'm endlessly disappointed by games that don't allow this. I'm glad to see Ashes will. Thank you.
The "Harrowers March" area - Rather than pools of water, change them to pools of black, oily tar. It would add to the gloomy aesthetic and provide environmental hazards/considerations/interactivity for the dragon fight. (Think the La Brea Tar Pits in California)
When wading through the black tar it would slow your movement slightly and make you more susceptible to fire damage (You burn for longer) When the Dragon breathes fire, the pools would light, creating environmental hazards that need to be avoided.
It would make positioning, kiting, melee attacking etc, much more dynamic and interesting. The environment would become part of the fight and look much more epic. Verra should be a stage, not a screen. Bring in interactive elements as much as you can. It makes the world feel so much more alive!
Firebrand - When he "absorbed" from the Flame Minion Mobs and became enraged (gaining 11 stacks) this should be a visible change on the model. A size increase, a red glowing aura and a mega ball of fire! etc. Show the evolution and change through animation and SFX, not just through the UI.
Incorporate more mechanics that require people to work as a group, immersion is important but this is still a game at the end of the day.
The Citadel of The Steel Bloom - Add environmental colour, texture and interactability by having gatherables/fishables/huntables/collectables all over the place!
The water in the courtyard? Filled with special Koi! (If you have a rod) Some super special glowing trees, that can be chopped (If you have an axe) Lots of destructible crates, barrels and vases that contain some Coin or low-level Glint. Some low-level puzzles that reward recipes/maps/lore pages.
The Citadel (like all other POI) should themselves be, jam-packed treasure chests filled with gubbins and goodies. Walking into the main courtyard should be like walking into Willy Wonka's chocolate factory! You should feel like a kid in a candy store! What to collect? What to gather? There is only so much time! You only have so much space! You only have unlocked certain levels of skill! There is a mob trying to kill me ARGH!
POIs in general - Players should want to return to these places, multiple times for multiple reasons. Night and Day, Different Seasons, Group Numbers and Compositions etc. POIs should be gifts that keep on giving... enigmas, wrapped in riddles, wreathed in mystery and awe. More layers than an onion, more loot than you can carry and perhaps more danger than you (and your merry band of adventurers) can handle!
POIs should be the antithesis of "one and done", they should be "Been there... done that, let's go again and do more!"