It's really sad that Steven showed another boss in the open world WITHOUT PvP. Because of this, some, ahem, experienced PvE mmorpg players can't understand how the PvP aspect affects the game experience.
PVP combat rez is a terrible idea unless there is a specific "battle rez" skill for certain classes.
PVE combat rez open to everyone is an interesting idea and I don't really know if I like it yet or not. I would need to be in a raid setting to figure that out.
On one hand, I don't want it to make content trivial and on the other, it will be a nice tool to use if there are heavy limitations.
Bringing 20 clerics to a raid because you can cheese it is a horrible thought that will cause my entire guild to quit.
All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.
I completely disagree with this. While we are at it, maybe give every class blink and shield wall too?
As stated in a previous thread, once you start giving every class every ability, it erodes class identity and the fun of playing (for me anyway).
I personally don't like the scrolls, but if they have a long cd for the party/raid, like 15 minutes, and they are weak rezzes, then ok. The Cleric should have the best rez with the ability to spec skill points into a very strong rez with shortest cd, shortest cast time and reduced death penalties. I think Cleric and the scrolls should be the only battle rez (again, with scrolls being weak and having a long cd). Give the bard and maybe summoner a weak rez without the ability to rez in combat, just to help alleviate the annoyance of corpse runs.
Resurrection, especially during combat, should be viewed as a very powerful ability that can save the group in an epic fashion and must be used strategically. Not something everyone is running around doing with 10+ rezzes during every encounter. There were WAY too many resurrections during the Firebrand fight.
Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.
It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.
In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.
If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.
I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.
I would actually love for each archtype to gain access to an extremely powerful , unique, group-wide skill, on a very long cooldown. Something that can turn the tide in battle, or provide a counter-play of sorts. Here are a few examples:
Cleric - Mass Resurrection - Resurrects all party members in a radius with 50% health and 25% mana - 1h CD
Rogue - Mass Invisibility - Provides 20s of cloak to all party members in a radius. The first attack when coming out of cloak deals 20% more damage - 30m CD
Summoner - Summon Allies - Teleports all party members to the caster's location, regardless of distance - 2h CD
Tank - Unbreakable Phalanx - Makes all party members in a radius invulnerable to all types of damage and crowd control for 5s - 1h CD
etc.
Curious if you guys have any ideas about the rest.
Too bad, you lose! The correct sequence was blood - blood - blood.
I would actually love for each archtype to gain access to an extremely powerful , unique, group-wide skill, on a very long cooldown. Something that can turn the tide in battle, or provide a counter-play of sorts. Here are a few examples:
Cleric - Mass Resurrection - Resurrects all party members in a radius with 50% health and 25% mana - 1h CD
Rogue - Mass Invisibility - Provides 20s of cloak to all party members in a radius. The first attack when coming out of cloak deals 20% more damage - 30m CD
Summoner - Summon Allies - Teleports all party members to the caster's location, regardless of distance - 2h CD
Tank - Unbreakable Phalanx - Makes all party members in a radius invulnerable to all types of damage and crowd control for 5s - 1h CD
etc.
Curious if you guys have any ideas about the rest.
I'm actually all for this.
Bard could also have some sort of a raid-wide buff for allies.
In all cases, it's a long cd ability, so you better choose the right time to use it. It's a version of an Ultimate skill.
For Bard I was thinking something more offensive, like Naga's Song of the Siren from DOTA2, putting everyone outside of party/raid to sleep for 5s, in a rather large radius.
Too bad, you lose! The correct sequence was blood - blood - blood.
STEVEN is talking that only like 10% of the population will be able to clear the hardest contents. And what you are talking is like: Everyone can clear the hardest content, just invest some more in ingame gold beforehand.
Thats kind of just the way it is though in pure PvE.
You invest in dying over and over again in repeated boss attempts, hundreds of wipes over weeks to months for a brand new top end challenge. Investing everything it takes to learn all the tricks. Reviewing hours of video footage of your recorded attempts from multiple points of views to decipher the mechanics.
Until eventually you get the clear, and then you know everything there is to know about the raid and you have it on farm. Other teams leech off your effort if you happen to share strategies.
In PvE, all it takes is time and effort. Anyone can do it, some people it will take far more time and effort than others, and they give up or dont try to improve the weak areas necessary to get the clear. It all depends on your teams initial level of skill and commitment to learning at a fast pace.
In a PvE only scenario, you only lose if you quit.
Its not like a PvP or PvX scenario, or open world encounters where there are variables beyond just learning how the boss works. These bosses are just built different, simpler mechanics that don't take weeks to learn either, because in PvX, you can know everything and still lose.
Well, think about this, some classes will have mana and other classes will have something else, how to balance that and make it fair for all classes, since they heal themselves differently?
Any character that is ressurected should get back with 5% health and 5% mana/stuff and be at risk of being one shotted or simply get melted by AoE/dots being spammed around
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
so in 40 man raid, if you have 5 clerics (1 for every 8 players). You get: 40 res from scrolls + 40 res from the 5 clerics mass resurrect + 5 resurrects every 5 mins.
So you want to tell me 90-100 resurrects in 1 fight is acceptable for 40 players?
Yeah, if you want to use them all up.
I'm not sure why you would, as if you are needing that many, clearly you are doing something wrong.
Having access to that amount of resurrection capacity doesn't mean you want to use it all, nor that you should use it all. If you use all of those resurrections because you needed to use them all, you are still going to fail at killing the encounter - so you are only wasting your own time and resources by doing so.
In this situation, it doesn't even matter if this is PvE or PvP, if you use that amount of resurrection resources, you've lost. More resurrection resources used just means you lost even more.
From a PvP perspective, thrashing a rival guild and watching them resurrect mid fight in order to attempt to keep things going - but thrashing them anyway is just one of lifes little joys.
In the Firebrand showcase. We saw more than 40 resurrects. and in the end they managed to kill it. And without those resurrects they would have failed. So i disagree.
they only died that much because they are still noobs in that content, when the real meta pve farmers come up they won't die that much and with ressurection it will be too easy
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
People will not this much when they learn the content and specialize in it, they will make the Intrepid team look like noobs, so don't take the stream as a rule o thumb since the team absolutely doesnt play AoC as much as the future hardcore carebears will run it
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.
It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.
In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.
If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.
I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.
Naa because ive done so much pvp i know mass combat res is kind of very dumb. Exactly why the idea of all these limits are brought up for when you are resed, long cooldowns, restrictions, etc. Because its a broken ability that is mandatory in all content in the game.
If you lose the fight the fight should be over, it shouldnt be you trying to run 10 clerics and trying to res people every second until one goes though and cycling it.
That or other classes need skills equal in power to mass res on long cooldown where they can nuke tons of people for super high dmg, blow people up with a skill, have strong forms of debuffs like being unable to cast in an area for long durations, etc.
This idea its hard to get a combat res off in large scale combat is also very silly, you also have people supporting you from being killed and cc'd.
I thought players wanted harder PVE content. If you have 100 potential resurrects in 1 fight. Even the hardest bosses will be trivial if you are willing to invest into killing them.
I hate to say it, but this is absolutely spoken like someone that has no clue.
If you have infinate resurrects, a hard encounter is still hard. If you are taking the fight on the wrong way, you will not kill it.
Ever.
If you are taking it on the right way, you probably don't need any ressurects at all.
Having more resurrect capacity means those that have no clue (poke poke) simply end up costing their raid/guild more because they don't know when to call the pull and try something different. Again, this applies as much to PvP as it does PvE.
What you are talking about will apply if the boss has some kind of Instant Wipe mechanics. And this wont be the case with AOC since its open world.
It will apply if there is an instant wipe, but it will also apply if the boss has any number of other mechanics. Rage timers and equivlent mechanics are fairly common, a mob that spawns a significant number of strog adds will prevent you from killing the encounter if your raid die a lot, mechanics that heal the mob will be an issue, mobs that regenerate will be an issue - there is a lot more than just mobs with instant wipe abilities.
As to your comment about open world - the encounters in an open world setting pit your raid against others involved to essentially see who can do the most DPS. If you are having to resurrect people often, that clearly won't be your raid. In this situation, while the mob may die, you don't get anything at all for it.
And you are talking here some complete noobies, And even they will be able to kill a hard boss.
For a group that is doing the highest mythic dungeons in WOW or hardest raids in other games,
Even if AOC create hard enough boss, with infinite resurrects the boss will be still trivial
STEVEN is talking that only like 10% of the population will be able to clear the hardest contents. And what you are talking is like: Everyone can clear the hardest content, just invest some more in ingame gold beforehand.
Some folks keep forgetting that the main inspiration for Ashes comes from Lineage II and ArcheAge. This will not be a typical MMO with classic raid encounters, where guilds will compete over "who can do the most DPS" on the boss. There will be a bloodbath every single time, and organized guilds will control access to the boss itself. If you're part of a small, niche group, chances are you probably won't even get to hit the boss, or get past the entrance of a dungeon.
Too bad, you lose! The correct sequence was blood - blood - blood.
Some folks keep forgetting that the main inspiration for Ashes comes from Lineage II and ArcheAge.
I think you are slightly mistaken here.
We know where Steven is pulling his ideas for the game from, many of us even spent years in those games. However, Intrepid are the ones showing off raid content.
Steven has specifically stated that he is aware that there are some things the developers want to do with encounters that can't be done in the open world - due to that bloodbath you talk about. This is what happened most of the time in L2 and Archeage, and Steven is well aware that if Ashes is to have anything that is considered "good" PvE, that needs to be avoided.
This is why Ashes is slated to have 20% of it's content instanced.
However, most of us talking here - especially those of us that have been here for a few years - are almost always thinking about the game in terms of the open world, as well as the potential for instances.
Resurrection during combat is absolutely necessary.
It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.
In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.
If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.
I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.
If you lose the fight the fight should be over, it shouldnt be you trying to run 10 clerics and trying to res people every second until one goes though and cycling it.
Which is why there should be a debuff applied to everyone, when someone uses the ability, or at least to those who got resurrected. This way, you cannot have different Clerics spamming mass res, constantly reviving everyone.
0
scottstone7Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 7
There should be a cool down on all forms of resurrection.
I'd say the ability for a cleric should be limited to rank 1 or 2 and have a 10 second cast time, at least 15 but no more than 30 second cool down and have a mana cost on the higher end. The High Priest should get to max out the ability rank with same cast time and cool down but maybe a lower mana cost.
Scrolls of resurrection shouldn't be a thing, that being said, I grudgingly admit it would be useful to have them available. Scrolls should have a cast time of at least 30 seconds and 60 to 90 minute cool down. Scrolls are a bit of a slippery slope, if everyone has easy access to them then it invalidates part of the role of clerics. Therefore they should not be widely available, easy to acquire or cheap. They should be a last ditch emergency use only type deal. I'd be perfectly happy if they end up as a guild only purchase tied to whatever guild purchased them and each guild can only have a small limited number, lets say 10, at any given time.
It opens up so many more options, and means that once somebody dies, if the fight goes on for another 20mins, that they get to actually join in, rather than either lying there being useless or having to port to the nearest resurrection shrine and being useless.
Also a partially true statement, but one with some caveats to it. As a very long time healer I do feel the need to point out these caveats.
How well does the dead player know how to play their specific role?
How often does the dead player die?
Tied directly to the previous question; How often does the dead player do something stupid or unnecessarily flashy to get themselves killed?
Given the current state of the battle, is it more or less efficient time and mana-wise to revive the dead player or heal others?
A hard bit of truth that most people don't like to admit, even more so when they are one, there are players that at any given time even alive are just useless as a dead player. Some even more so, by being just alive they are a detriment the teams around them. Refusing to follow orders, not paying attention, not keeping their mouth shut when the grown ups are talking.
All archetypes should be able to do it, with different degrees of efficiency.
Absolutely not. This should remain with the cleric class only. I'd honestly go so far as to say the High Priest class only. I'll be playing a High Priest but I mean, if you are going to be handing out class skills, gimmie Aegis from the tanks, Blink from the mages, Cathartic Melody and Cheerful Melody from the bards, Disengage from the rangers and lets see.... Throw in a Blood Fusion from the fighters too.
Comments
PVE combat rez open to everyone is an interesting idea and I don't really know if I like it yet or not. I would need to be in a raid setting to figure that out.
On one hand, I don't want it to make content trivial and on the other, it will be a nice tool to use if there are heavy limitations.
Bringing 20 clerics to a raid because you can cheese it is a horrible thought that will cause my entire guild to quit.
I completely disagree with this. While we are at it, maybe give every class blink and shield wall too?
As stated in a previous thread, once you start giving every class every ability, it erodes class identity and the fun of playing (for me anyway).
I personally don't like the scrolls, but if they have a long cd for the party/raid, like 15 minutes, and they are weak rezzes, then ok. The Cleric should have the best rez with the ability to spec skill points into a very strong rez with shortest cd, shortest cast time and reduced death penalties. I think Cleric and the scrolls should be the only battle rez (again, with scrolls being weak and having a long cd). Give the bard and maybe summoner a weak rez without the ability to rez in combat, just to help alleviate the annoyance of corpse runs.
Resurrection, especially during combat, should be viewed as a very powerful ability that can save the group in an epic fashion and must be used strategically. Not something everyone is running around doing with 10+ rezzes during every encounter. There were WAY too many resurrections during the Firebrand fight.
Also, scrolls should be a high end crafted item.
It should be risky, but if you pull it off, you get rewarded for it - and I'm talking about mass ress here. High risk could be longer cast time for example, but not too long. Enemies should have the ability to react to someone casting it, and interrupt them, but it shouldn't be too long, where you will always be interrupted.
Cooldown around 20-30min, sure, but what if you don't finish the cast? Should it be fully reset, fully on cd, or somewhere in between?
Test, and see what works.
In my opinion, only the Cleric should have access to such ability, while others can use scrolls. Maybe summoner can get it's own version of single target res, especially if they're a Cleric as a secondary.
If you pull off a good mass res, you can turn the tide of a battle.
I'm going to make an assumption here that might as well be wrong, but I think those who are against combat res in PvP, simply haven't played any games with open-world mass PvP.
I would actually love for each archtype to gain access to an extremely powerful , unique, group-wide skill, on a very long cooldown. Something that can turn the tide in battle, or provide a counter-play of sorts. Here are a few examples:
Cleric - Mass Resurrection - Resurrects all party members in a radius with 50% health and 25% mana - 1h CD
Rogue - Mass Invisibility - Provides 20s of cloak to all party members in a radius. The first attack when coming out of cloak deals 20% more damage - 30m CD
Summoner - Summon Allies - Teleports all party members to the caster's location, regardless of distance - 2h CD
Tank - Unbreakable Phalanx - Makes all party members in a radius invulnerable to all types of damage and crowd control for 5s - 1h CD
etc.
Curious if you guys have any ideas about the rest.
I'm actually all for this.
Bard could also have some sort of a raid-wide buff for allies.
In all cases, it's a long cd ability, so you better choose the right time to use it. It's a version of an Ultimate skill.
Thats kind of just the way it is though in pure PvE.
You invest in dying over and over again in repeated boss attempts, hundreds of wipes over weeks to months for a brand new top end challenge. Investing everything it takes to learn all the tricks. Reviewing hours of video footage of your recorded attempts from multiple points of views to decipher the mechanics.
Until eventually you get the clear, and then you know everything there is to know about the raid and you have it on farm. Other teams leech off your effort if you happen to share strategies.
In PvE, all it takes is time and effort. Anyone can do it, some people it will take far more time and effort than others, and they give up or dont try to improve the weak areas necessary to get the clear. It all depends on your teams initial level of skill and commitment to learning at a fast pace.
In a PvE only scenario, you only lose if you quit.
Its not like a PvP or PvX scenario, or open world encounters where there are variables beyond just learning how the boss works. These bosses are just built different, simpler mechanics that don't take weeks to learn either, because in PvX, you can know everything and still lose.
Any character that is ressurected should get back with 5% health and 5% mana/stuff and be at risk of being one shotted or simply get melted by AoE/dots being spammed around
they only died that much because they are still noobs in that content, when the real meta pve farmers come up they won't die that much and with ressurection it will be too easy
Naa because ive done so much pvp i know mass combat res is kind of very dumb. Exactly why the idea of all these limits are brought up for when you are resed, long cooldowns, restrictions, etc. Because its a broken ability that is mandatory in all content in the game.
If you lose the fight the fight should be over, it shouldnt be you trying to run 10 clerics and trying to res people every second until one goes though and cycling it.
That or other classes need skills equal in power to mass res on long cooldown where they can nuke tons of people for super high dmg, blow people up with a skill, have strong forms of debuffs like being unable to cast in an area for long durations, etc.
This idea its hard to get a combat res off in large scale combat is also very silly, you also have people supporting you from being killed and cc'd.
Mana is an Universal archetype resource in Ashes of Creation.[1][2][3]
Resting and mana regeneration.[4]
As you know, a classic MMO thing to do is to sit and rest as you get your resources back.[5] – Steven Sharif
All archetypes use mana to varying degrees.[1][2]
Even pure melee players use mana to manipulate The Essence for their extraordinary abilities.[6]
It will apply if there is an instant wipe, but it will also apply if the boss has any number of other mechanics. Rage timers and equivlent mechanics are fairly common, a mob that spawns a significant number of strog adds will prevent you from killing the encounter if your raid die a lot, mechanics that heal the mob will be an issue, mobs that regenerate will be an issue - there is a lot more than just mobs with instant wipe abilities.
As to your comment about open world - the encounters in an open world setting pit your raid against others involved to essentially see who can do the most DPS. If you are having to resurrect people often, that clearly won't be your raid. In this situation, while the mob may die, you don't get anything at all for it.
Again, spoken like someone that has no clue.
We know where Steven is pulling his ideas for the game from, many of us even spent years in those games. However, Intrepid are the ones showing off raid content.
Steven has specifically stated that he is aware that there are some things the developers want to do with encounters that can't be done in the open world - due to that bloodbath you talk about. This is what happened most of the time in L2 and Archeage, and Steven is well aware that if Ashes is to have anything that is considered "good" PvE, that needs to be avoided.
This is why Ashes is slated to have 20% of it's content instanced.
However, most of us talking here - especially those of us that have been here for a few years - are almost always thinking about the game in terms of the open world, as well as the potential for instances.
Which is why there should be a debuff applied to everyone, when someone uses the ability, or at least to those who got resurrected. This way, you cannot have different Clerics spamming mass res, constantly reviving everyone.
I'd say the ability for a cleric should be limited to rank 1 or 2 and have a 10 second cast time, at least 15 but no more than 30 second cool down and have a mana cost on the higher end. The High Priest should get to max out the ability rank with same cast time and cool down but maybe a lower mana cost.
Scrolls of resurrection shouldn't be a thing, that being said, I grudgingly admit it would be useful to have them available. Scrolls should have a cast time of at least 30 seconds and 60 to 90 minute cool down. Scrolls are a bit of a slippery slope, if everyone has easy access to them then it invalidates part of the role of clerics. Therefore they should not be widely available, easy to acquire or cheap. They should be a last ditch emergency use only type deal. I'd be perfectly happy if they end up as a guild only purchase tied to whatever guild purchased them and each guild can only have a small limited number, lets say 10, at any given time.
That is an extremely true statement.
Also a partially true statement, but one with some caveats to it. As a very long time healer I do feel the need to point out these caveats.
How well does the dead player know how to play their specific role?
How often does the dead player die?
Tied directly to the previous question; How often does the dead player do something stupid or unnecessarily flashy to get themselves killed?
Given the current state of the battle, is it more or less efficient time and mana-wise to revive the dead player or heal others?
A hard bit of truth that most people don't like to admit, even more so when they are one, there are players that at any given time even alive are just useless as a dead player. Some even more so, by being just alive they are a detriment the teams around them. Refusing to follow orders, not paying attention, not keeping their mouth shut when the grown ups are talking.
Absolutely not. This should remain with the cleric class only. I'd honestly go so far as to say the High Priest class only. I'll be playing a High Priest but I mean, if you are going to be handing out class skills, gimmie Aegis from the tanks, Blink from the mages, Cathartic Melody and Cheerful Melody from the bards, Disengage from the rangers and lets see.... Throw in a Blood Fusion from the fighters too.