I won't agree that people leave when they experience everything a game has to offer generally
Actually true. I should have phrased it "when they experience everything they wanted to experience" - as it would be more accurate. What I wrote initially, I assume it's still true, but obviously it's less common than what you wrote.
People go into games with their own (sometimes very bizarre) wishes and expectations, and they often interact with only:
1: That thing
2: Whatever they perceive is in the way of that thing (and in this case they often complain)
Agree with this as well. Should I have phrased it properly from the first attempt, we'd probably say the same or almost the same thing
To add what little context I can then, since I agree that Reddit is not the most useful source of information:
TL's leveling used to be that you would do a story beat and get half a level, then a mini-quest of some kind involving fighting about 10-20 mobs for the other half. At the beginning, it got you into a rhythm of this, a bit of an 'understanding'. It threw in some bosses in the 'story beats' sometimes as basic competence checks.
When it 'opened the game' to you, the Commissions became available. Normally 10-15 kills of something. Sometimes up to 20. Another half level, but then they stopped giving you the quests directly, you were supposed to choose on your own.
This resulted in a leveling time of approx 40-60 hours, the same length as most single player games. It follows the pattern of 'play through some single player experience to the end and then multiplayer challenges begin'. But at least the commissions and such were not 'wasted', and a player who enjoyed killing mobs for 2h would still benefit.
This is mostly still true. Events, mob grind, these things still matter. But the increased Main Story Quest exp gets a certain player type in and out of the game fast. I'd say you almost 'want' that to happen, in my opinion. There are more components to this, that I do not feel add to the conversation relative to Ashes.
Of course, I don't think that 'a person complaining that the leveling is too fast' means anything when you would get an equal or larger number of complaints of it being too slow. As a person who has a full group of people who don't like fast leveling, the level to which TL does it is a 'mild irritation', not a large deviation from an optimal.
Similarly, pretty sure that the level to which Ashes intends to do 'slow leveling' is 'mild irritation' tier, not a large deviation from an optimal. A person who rushes through the Main Story of an MMO, never stopping to learn anything in an area, farm a few mobs, or do anything unnecessary, doesn't, in my mind, have the right to complain about the implementation.
It's like that guy in that New World video who complained that he didn't want to farm for drops with much chance of not getting the thing he wanted, but he wanted meaningful content to keep him playing. So he wanted it to be hard, but not hard enough that he had to get good, and he wanted it to be rewarding, but also somehow not reward him fast enough that he would be back with his empty bowl asking for another serving in two weeks.
It's like that guy in that New World video who complained that he didn't want to farm for drops with much chance of not getting the thing he wanted, but he wanted meaningful content to keep him playing. So he wanted it to be hard, but not hard enough that he had to get good, and he wanted it to be rewarding, but also somehow not reward him fast enough that he would be back with his empty bowl asking for another serving in two weeks.
When it comes to grinding in New World, I genuinely hated it with all my heart. And a side note: I am someone who used to grind mobs 12-16 hours a day in Lineage and had absolutely no problem with it. Why? Because even though it could be somewhat monotonous sometimes, reaching a new level or upgrading your gear was quite difficult and felt rewarding. That was a decent compensation for all that grind. Additionally, there were PvP breaks from time to time that were entertaining and fun, no matter if you win or lose and that made it fine overall.
When it comes to New World, I hated the lack of clarity and artifical gatekeeping that was there for the sole reason of lack of content. And I had access to all content the game had to offer: wars, invasions, chest runs, crafting literally anything (I was amongst the first players who managed to max out all trade skills)
But what the hell was watermark system? First of all, I literally had 0 idea about it because there was nothing about it in game and the only way to find out more about it was either forum or YT videos. For months there was literally no way to track your progress, until they finally implemented it. And as long as the idea was a complete garbage (why would I need to grind watermark if I can literally buy or craft BIS gear myself?), they decided to add a bloody GEAR SCORE DOWNSCALING to force people to actually grind it, instead of adding some meaningful content.
Then dungeons. Not only brainless dungeon runs were isolated and monotonous, but they were also gatekept by Orbs that you needed to enter it. Obviously, we quickly figured out that we can just buy them from other players, but this is just ridiculous, as there were items in those dungeons that you couldn't craft even theoretically, due to restrictions on certain perk combinations they implemented. If I recall correctly, they said that "having those perk combinations is too OP:, but apparently it wasn't "too OP" because you could still get items with those perks from the dungeon.
This kind of blatant lies were annoying to a degree beyond imagination. If you don't have enough content and you need more time to implement it - just say it. Some people wouldn't like it obviously, but at least they wouldn't end up being called out for their garbage dishonesty and lack of transparency.
MMOs literally can't win anymore. Their longevity depends on people not leaving, but people leave if they don't get what they want fast enough, yet they cannot define 'what they want'.
I thought the same about single player RPG's for a while too, then BG3 came along. The developers of that game basically told people what they wanted, and everyone kind of just went "oh yeah, that's what I wanted".
Obviously MMORPG's are vastly more complicated than even that game, but I have no reaon to think that a balance couldn't be found. No game has yet found it, and Ashes absolutely will not be the game that does, but it must exist.
About all I know for sure in that regard though, is that this balance absolutely can not be found in a sandbox game, or anything similar. It needs to be a full on themepark where every content beat is considered and weighed. You can't offer that balance to players if players are free to go off and do what ever they want.
You can either give people encounters that are just difficult enough for them and reward them with just the right kind of rewards, OR you can leave people to decide which encounters they want to take on next. I can't see any way for it to be both.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 3
Initially, I would leave a MMORPG during Hell Levels - once I reach a point where it takes too many hours of using the same abilities and skills to kill the same mobs to reach the next Level. Reaching max Adventurer Level was not even a goal.
And that remained true from 1999 - 2010.
By 2010, Hell Levels were mostly removed from MMORPGs and it was possible to reach max Adventurer Level (and the end of the storyline and questing) within 3-4 weeks. Which is what caused Endgame to become a major bane.
From 2010 - 2013, I would leave MMORPGs once I had acquired all the abilities and Skills available for my Class/Professions and experienced all the story and quests and explored the entire map with 2+ characters.
I would return when there was new story and new mobs and new areas of the map to explore - hopefully also with some new abilities and skills for my Class/Professions (could be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression by the time I'm max Class Level.)
By 2013, I was burnt out by the treadmill of hitting Endgame in 4 weeks and then being stuck there for 12-18+ months for new content.
The Everquest Next design - with Storybricks - gave me the hope that there was a viable solution for putting an end to Endgame. Other than abysmally slow Leveling.
Nodes is similar enough to Storybricks. With the addition of the other progression paths and the Story Events system, etc... the Ashes design also appears to be capable of putting an end to Endgame.
For the past two years.... I have too many games I want to play that drop new content so quickly, I have no time to play them all.
One of those games is WoW - as of Shadowlands and especially after Dragonflight - because now there is plenty of stuff I like to do after reaching max Class Level, besides Dungeons and Raids. And also because they drop new content more frequently than just 12-18 months. That being said... I haven't had time to play in 2024.
I also enjoy playing NW. But, I often don't have time to play all of the new Seasons.
I also enjoy playing NMS, which doesn't have Levels. I don't always have to time to finish reach the end of their Expeditions before jumping back over to WoW or NW or trying some other game my friends and/or co-hosts want to explore.
I love playing Nightingale - which also doesn't have character Levels. I still had some stuff I wanted to do with my 2nd alt when I stopped playing so I could jump into the new LEGO Fortnite Chapter. I'm trying to explore the new Nightingale: Realms Rebuilt Update, but I only played about 30 hours before the Marvel Chapter dropped in Fortnite.
I think I finished what I wanted to do for the Marvel stuff and had 2 or 3 days before the Lost Isles content dropped. Completed the Lost Isles BP Monday, but I still have some stuff to build and Villagers to acquire.
And then.... Fortnitemares begins October 15. (LEGO Fortnite also doesn't have character Leveling - there are other progression paths)
I would say that 11-22 to max Class Level is exceedingly fast and there is really no point to Leveling if it's only going to be 11-22 hours. But...
I also wonder what other gameplay T&L has to offer besides Class progression.
Again, Nightingale doesn't even have Class progression, but I love the Crafting progression and Quests/Story and Building enough to have played their Alpha for 400 hours (two characters). And I'm eager to continue exploring Realms Rebuilt with new characters.
Crafting progression does not feel slow. Nor do the Quests or the Story. There's just a bunch of fun stuff to do until one reaches the end of available new content - Endgame. Though, I don't think I made it to Endgame with my alt before jumping over to LEGO Fortnite when the Star Wars Island dropped.
In an RPG, I want to be focused on the Hero's Journey of Class Progression.
And I want that Class/Adventurer Leveling to feel like it's progressing at a steady pace hour-to-hour - rather than feeling like I've been stuck at Level 27/50 for more than 16 hours.
These days, devs have other, better, solutions to ending Endgame besides slow Leveling.
When it comes to grinding in New World, I genuinely hated it with all my heart. And a side note: I am someone who used to grind mobs 12-16 hours a day in Lineage and had absolutely no problem with it. Why? Because even though it could be somewhat monotonous sometimes, reaching a new level or upgrading your gear was quite difficult and felt rewarding. That was a decent compensation for all that grind. Additionally, there were PvP breaks from time to time that were entertaining and fun, no matter if you win or lose and that made it fine overall.
Right. And I hear similar stuff from other Lineage II players.
Grinding mobs is not supposed to feel fun. It's supposed to feel immensely tedious and boring.
But, Lineage II players will say they love grinding mobs.
I am a Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time player - so I don't feel rewarded by completing tedious and difficult challenges. There is no decent compensation for tedious gameplay.
(I think that explains why you want Leveling to max Adventurer to be longer than 225 and no one can provide you with a counterpoint you perceive to be decent: it's because that heavy time investment makes the monotony feel like an Achievement. "It took forever and it was kinda boring, but I finally got there!")
I enjoy playing New World. And I don't grind mobs in New World. I do a bunch of Questing and Exploring and Gathering and Crafting and Tasks in New World and also sometimes I kill mobs.
And I don't think about how long it takes me to reach max Character Level. It's not even a goal.
When it comes to New World, I hated the lack of clarity and artifical gatekeeping that was there for the sole reason of lack of content. And I had access to all content the game had to offer: wars, invasions, chest runs, crafting literally anything (I was amongst the first players who managed to max out all trade skills)
I mean... I don't feel any artificial gatekeeping in New World.
But, that is exactly what it seems like you mean when you say that reaching max Level Adventurer should take longer than 225 hours.
Then dungeons. Not only brainless dungeon runs were isolated and monotonous, but they were also gatekept by Orbs that you needed to enter it. Obviously, we quickly figured out that we can just buy them from other players, but this is just ridiculous, as there were items in those dungeons that you couldn't craft even theoretically, due to restrictions on certain perk combinations they implemented. If I recall correctly, they said that "having those perk combinations is too OP:, but apparently it wasn't "too OP" because you could still get items with those perks from the dungeon.
Yeah. I don't run Dungeons in New World. And, of course, I rarely PvP in New World.
In other words, listening to feedback is always a mistake, cause someone will always complain.
Finally. Time to close forums and stop posting / whining. Win - Win all around.
This is not feedback though. This is a suggestion
I hope we haven't lost the plot here.
And to make this post more useful than that. TL data.
9h in, level 23. I couldn't start the next Main Story Quest until I hit 23. I went and killed some boars for meat to cook with. I'm on the 'Grinder' side of behaviour, so I probably missed some story beats. JustVine reports that she didn't need to grind, she is the 'Story' side of behaviour during story heavy segments and tends to only enjoy grinding later. Neither of us follows guides or tries to rush it, though I read faster than the voice acting so I sometimes press through half of it.
So it's actually still correct. It's balanced almost perfectly on the edge. As all things should be. I bet I will also need to do a few contracts/kill some mobs at 26-27, and again at 30-31, and she probably won't.
My conclusion is that the feedback was taken in context, same as with Intrepid.
Right. And I hear similar stuff from other Lineage II players.
Grinding mobs is not supposed to feel fun. It's supposed to feel immensely tedious and boring.
But, Lineage II players will say they love grinding mobs.
Quote one. And if you can, care to ask which server/patch he was playing on, because that is important.
Also, there is no need to generalize. I didn't really enjoy grinding itself - it was okayish, but competition and open world PvP made it fun.
I mean... I don't feel any artificial gatekeeping in New World.
It doesn't matter what you feel, it's an objective fact. And I'm sorry, but facts don't care about your feelings. Watermark system alone is a ridiculous attempt to force people do monotonous trash with no option to even know that the system exists or any UI that allows to track the progress you've made (it was like that for months until they realized it needs to be changed). And before you say that "oh, same will be with leveling in Ashes" - no, it won't. There is plenty of ways to gain XP, not just one.
And please stop quoting and/or replying to me. We literally talk in different languages and this conversation makes little to no sense
It doesn't matter what you feel, it's an objective fact. And I'm sorry, but facts don't care about your feelings. Watermark system alone is a ridiculous attempt to force people do monotonous trash with no option to even know that the system exists or any UI that allows to track the progress you've made (it was like that for months until they realized it needs to be changed). And before you say that "oh, same will be with leveling in Ashes" - no, it won't. There is plenty of ways to gain XP, not just one.
Oh. That's because the Watermark System kicks in after reaching Level 60. And I don't really interact with the stuff that would require the Watermark System.
So... that is not an example of gatekeeping affecting the Leveling speed.
I have fun running the BPs and exploring whatever drops with the new Season updates. None of that is monotonous to me
I wouldn't compare Leveling in NW with Leveling in Ashes.
NW does not have Classes.
Nor does not have progression paths for Races, Social Orgs, and Religions.
Nor does NW have an Augments feature.
Nor does NW have anything similar to the Nodes system.
The Events system for Ashes is designed to be much more robust than the one in NW.
Ashes adding new content with Seasonal updates will likely be quite similar to NW.
And please stop quoting and/or replying to me. We literally talk in different languages and this conversation makes little to no sense
Makes little to no sense to you because logic cannot penetrate your confirmation bias.
You can stop replying to me if you wish.
I'm just pointing out the flaws in your perspective to other people in the Forums.
It's not all about you.
I don't really unteract with the stuff that would require the Watermark System.
So... that is not an example of gatekeeping affecting the Leveling speed.
Omg... who said it was related to leveling specifically?
I'm speechless and can't force myself to reply to this nonsense
I must admit I haven't read every page, but don't understand the problem.
1. When Levelling you do story arcs to gain xp for yourself and the node.
At Max Level you do story arcs to gain xp for your node.
2. When levelling you level crafting skills and level augments you haven't maxed out yet
At Max Level you level crafting skills and level augments you haven't maxed out yet.
3. When levelling you do PvP against same level nodes for contested resources.
At Max Level you do PvP against same level nodes for contested resources.
4. When levelling you do group content in dungeons and raids.
At Max Level you do group content in dungeons and raids.
I just don't see the difference between the levelling experience and the Max Level experience except for the High Seas and other lawless areas. My thought is that you think the world will be more crowded and that the 80+ Nodes will all be too high for a new player, but I think there will be plenty of low level nodes in clumps around the map that will give players room to level new nodes at least to level5. The "content" will change as new story arcs can be added on the fly, and all sorts of events and conditions can be added, by completing or failing them.
If you don't enjoy the levelling I don't think the end game is going to be a whole lot different. But 90% of the content will be story arcs and randomized content for POIs/Nodes of 4/5/6, which I suspect will be easy/moderate/hard content for max (or near max) level players. And you will need to be a citizen of a 5/6 Node to do the hardest content.
I understand that you see some kind of dichotomy between Levelling and End Game, but essentially I think you are doing the same thing, because of this concept that you are not just levelling/building your character, you are levelling/building your node/team. And the experience will be different every time based on Node Type and Biome differences.
If a time casual player like me (lets say 10h a week) can do it in about 5-6 month (would be fine for me), a frequent player will do it in 2-3 month (should be fair).
If a time casual player like me (lets say 10h a week) can do it in about 5-6 month (would be fine for me), a frequent player will do it in 2-3 month (should be fair).
Thats it. Intrepid, we‘ve solved it for you.
Yeah, and once again - the gap between casuals and hardcore players can be balanced with a properly implemented Rested XP system
I enjoy a long time to get max level, not everyone usually get to the max level and the tier 2 casual player have this as objective and aim to get in the end game but still have fun playing before it, it's a good gameplay loop in my opinion. (Played Perfect world for 10+ years, get max level there was insanely slow)
I enjoy a long time to get max level, not everyone usually get to the max level and the tier 2 casual player have this as objective and aim to get in the end game but still have fun playing before it, it's a good gameplay loop in my opinion. (Played Perfect world for 10+ years, get max level there was insanely slow)
Your comment made me realize that a certain pattern can be detected.
People who don't mind longer leveling mostly have experience in such games and they understand that it is not an issue at all, especially if leveling is rewarding and not boring.
On the other hand, those who don't like this idea usually or mostly don't have such experience. Anything new or unknown often triggers a certain level of anxiety, especially in situations with limited information.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't really unteract with the stuff that would require the Watermark System.
So... that is not an example of gatekeeping affecting the Leveling speed.
Omg... who said it was related to leveling specifically?
I'm speechless and can't force myself to reply to this nonsense
The context of the discussion is about Leveling speed so it's pointless for you to mention gatekeeping if it's not related to Leveling speed.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Your comment made me realize that a certain pattern can be detected.
People who don't mind longer leveling mostly have experience in such games and they understand that it is not an issue at all, especially if leveling is rewarding and not boring.
Long Leveling speed means it's not rewarding frequently enough and also boring because it takes too long to acquire new abilities, skills and stats before being close to the Level Cap.
225 hours to max Adventurer Level is long enough. Especially for a game that has plenty of rewarding and fun stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer.
Players who wish to extend the time it takes to reach max Level Adventurer can do so by doing other stuff and pursuing other progression paths, rather than waiting until the complete the Adventurer progression path.
On the other hand, those who don't like this idea usually or mostly don't have such experience. Anything new or unknown often triggers a certain level of anxiety, especially in situations with limited information.
Most likely, they don't agree that grinding mobs is okayish and fun. Many, if not most. here have had the experience of reaching Level cap taking longer than 225 hours.
Steven, Jeffrey Bard and Bill Trost have also had that experieince. Which is why Ashes is already designed to dodge the bullet that causes you such great paranoia.
The Ashes design already has new numerous solutions for fun stuff to do after spending 225 hours to reach max Level Adventurer. You, Mr. Pot, are the one who can't accept those new solutions and are obsessed with a slower Leveling speed being a necessary solution.
Most likely, they don't agree that grinding mobs is okayish and fun. Many, if not most. here have had the experience of reaching Level cap taking longer than 225 hours.
A great comparison. "Let's play games where leveling was long and boring and then make a conclusion that all games with long leveling are boring; which automatically means that leveling in Ashes will be boring too, so it's bad". A round of applause
And when you @Dygz share your opinion, don't forget that it comes from someone who:
> Openly admits that he does not belong to the target audience of Ashes;
> Openly admits that he won't do leveling and plans to play as level 1;
> Openly admits that he has 0 interest in anything remotely related to PvP;
> Has a tendency to worry about weird things, such as "Why do I have to worry about ecological consequences of me gathering resources?"
These are all your words from the podcast. So I don't expect you to be unbiased when it comes to this topic
If we ever end up on some stream or podcast together at some point in future, I would gladly debate you 1 on 1 on this topic. You are kind of too high on theorycrafting and imaginative issues that have nothing to do with the reality. And I've lost interest in addressing that on the forum a long time ago.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A great comparison. "Let's play games where leveling was long and boring and then make a conclusion that all games with long leveling are boring; which automatically means that leveling in Ashes will be boring too, so it's bad".
225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer/Class is at the far end of acceptable time. Before it becomes boring.
Once again:
> Openly admits that he does not belong to the target audience of Ashes;
> Has a tendency to worry about weird things, such as "Why do I have to worry about ecological consequences of me gathering resources?"[/quote]
Once again- that describes you. Since you are the one asking for changes to the design while I am not asking for changes to the design.
PvP really has nothing to with Leveling speed to max Adventurer Level.
If we ever end up on some stream or podcast together at some point in future, I would gladly debate you 1 on 1 on this topic. You are kind of too high on theorycrafting and imaginative issues that have nothing to do with the reality. And I've lost interest in addressing that on the forum a long time ago.
You can join us on The Ashen Forge. We love to have guests.
You are the one who is obsessed with a problem for which Steven and Intrepid have already designed many solutions... And you are the one so entrenched in your own delusions that you ignore those solutions as if Ashes has not already done anything to address the Endgame conundrum.
The reality is that, for Ashes, programming the Leveling speed to max Adventurer Level to be significantly longer than 225 hours is unecessary because they already have designed plenty of other stuff to do after reaching max Adventurer Level.
You say you have lost interest in addressing on the forums... and yet you keep doing so...
You are kind of too high on theorycrafting and imaginative issues that have nothing to do with the reality. And I've lost interest in addressing that on the forum a long time ago.
I was talking about you in particular. If you paid attention, I have no problems whatsoever when it comes to replying to @Azherae@Chaliux@Aszkalon or anyone else who provides decent points.
Comments
To add what little context I can then, since I agree that Reddit is not the most useful source of information:
TL's leveling used to be that you would do a story beat and get half a level, then a mini-quest of some kind involving fighting about 10-20 mobs for the other half. At the beginning, it got you into a rhythm of this, a bit of an 'understanding'. It threw in some bosses in the 'story beats' sometimes as basic competence checks.
When it 'opened the game' to you, the Commissions became available. Normally 10-15 kills of something. Sometimes up to 20. Another half level, but then they stopped giving you the quests directly, you were supposed to choose on your own.
This resulted in a leveling time of approx 40-60 hours, the same length as most single player games. It follows the pattern of 'play through some single player experience to the end and then multiplayer challenges begin'. But at least the commissions and such were not 'wasted', and a player who enjoyed killing mobs for 2h would still benefit.
This is mostly still true. Events, mob grind, these things still matter. But the increased Main Story Quest exp gets a certain player type in and out of the game fast. I'd say you almost 'want' that to happen, in my opinion. There are more components to this, that I do not feel add to the conversation relative to Ashes.
Of course, I don't think that 'a person complaining that the leveling is too fast' means anything when you would get an equal or larger number of complaints of it being too slow. As a person who has a full group of people who don't like fast leveling, the level to which TL does it is a 'mild irritation', not a large deviation from an optimal.
Similarly, pretty sure that the level to which Ashes intends to do 'slow leveling' is 'mild irritation' tier, not a large deviation from an optimal. A person who rushes through the Main Story of an MMO, never stopping to learn anything in an area, farm a few mobs, or do anything unnecessary, doesn't, in my mind, have the right to complain about the implementation.
It's like that guy in that New World video who complained that he didn't want to farm for drops with much chance of not getting the thing he wanted, but he wanted meaningful content to keep him playing. So he wanted it to be hard, but not hard enough that he had to get good, and he wanted it to be rewarding, but also somehow not reward him fast enough that he would be back with his empty bowl asking for another serving in two weeks.
When it comes to New World, I hated the lack of clarity and artifical gatekeeping that was there for the sole reason of lack of content. And I had access to all content the game had to offer: wars, invasions, chest runs, crafting literally anything (I was amongst the first players who managed to max out all trade skills)
But what the hell was watermark system? First of all, I literally had 0 idea about it because there was nothing about it in game and the only way to find out more about it was either forum or YT videos. For months there was literally no way to track your progress, until they finally implemented it. And as long as the idea was a complete garbage (why would I need to grind watermark if I can literally buy or craft BIS gear myself?), they decided to add a bloody GEAR SCORE DOWNSCALING to force people to actually grind it, instead of adding some meaningful content.
Then dungeons. Not only brainless dungeon runs were isolated and monotonous, but they were also gatekept by Orbs that you needed to enter it. Obviously, we quickly figured out that we can just buy them from other players, but this is just ridiculous, as there were items in those dungeons that you couldn't craft even theoretically, due to restrictions on certain perk combinations they implemented. If I recall correctly, they said that "having those perk combinations is too OP:, but apparently it wasn't "too OP" because you could still get items with those perks from the dungeon.
This kind of blatant lies were annoying to a degree beyond imagination. If you don't have enough content and you need more time to implement it - just say it. Some people wouldn't like it obviously, but at least they wouldn't end up being called out for their garbage dishonesty and lack of transparency.
Obviously MMORPG's are vastly more complicated than even that game, but I have no reaon to think that a balance couldn't be found. No game has yet found it, and Ashes absolutely will not be the game that does, but it must exist.
About all I know for sure in that regard though, is that this balance absolutely can not be found in a sandbox game, or anything similar. It needs to be a full on themepark where every content beat is considered and weighed. You can't offer that balance to players if players are free to go off and do what ever they want.
You can either give people encounters that are just difficult enough for them and reward them with just the right kind of rewards, OR you can leave people to decide which encounters they want to take on next. I can't see any way for it to be both.
And that remained true from 1999 - 2010.
By 2010, Hell Levels were mostly removed from MMORPGs and it was possible to reach max Adventurer Level (and the end of the storyline and questing) within 3-4 weeks. Which is what caused Endgame to become a major bane.
From 2010 - 2013, I would leave MMORPGs once I had acquired all the abilities and Skills available for my Class/Professions and experienced all the story and quests and explored the entire map with 2+ characters.
I would return when there was new story and new mobs and new areas of the map to explore - hopefully also with some new abilities and skills for my Class/Professions (could be horizontal progression rather than vertical progression by the time I'm max Class Level.)
By 2013, I was burnt out by the treadmill of hitting Endgame in 4 weeks and then being stuck there for 12-18+ months for new content.
The Everquest Next design - with Storybricks - gave me the hope that there was a viable solution for putting an end to Endgame. Other than abysmally slow Leveling.
Nodes is similar enough to Storybricks. With the addition of the other progression paths and the Story Events system, etc... the Ashes design also appears to be capable of putting an end to Endgame.
For the past two years.... I have too many games I want to play that drop new content so quickly, I have no time to play them all.
One of those games is WoW - as of Shadowlands and especially after Dragonflight - because now there is plenty of stuff I like to do after reaching max Class Level, besides Dungeons and Raids. And also because they drop new content more frequently than just 12-18 months. That being said... I haven't had time to play in 2024.
I also enjoy playing NW. But, I often don't have time to play all of the new Seasons.
I also enjoy playing NMS, which doesn't have Levels. I don't always have to time to finish reach the end of their Expeditions before jumping back over to WoW or NW or trying some other game my friends and/or co-hosts want to explore.
I love playing Nightingale - which also doesn't have character Levels. I still had some stuff I wanted to do with my 2nd alt when I stopped playing so I could jump into the new LEGO Fortnite Chapter. I'm trying to explore the new Nightingale: Realms Rebuilt Update, but I only played about 30 hours before the Marvel Chapter dropped in Fortnite.
I think I finished what I wanted to do for the Marvel stuff and had 2 or 3 days before the Lost Isles content dropped. Completed the Lost Isles BP Monday, but I still have some stuff to build and Villagers to acquire.
And then.... Fortnitemares begins October 15. (LEGO Fortnite also doesn't have character Leveling - there are other progression paths)
I would say that 11-22 to max Class Level is exceedingly fast and there is really no point to Leveling if it's only going to be 11-22 hours. But...
I also wonder what other gameplay T&L has to offer besides Class progression.
Again, Nightingale doesn't even have Class progression, but I love the Crafting progression and Quests/Story and Building enough to have played their Alpha for 400 hours (two characters). And I'm eager to continue exploring Realms Rebuilt with new characters.
Crafting progression does not feel slow. Nor do the Quests or the Story. There's just a bunch of fun stuff to do until one reaches the end of available new content - Endgame. Though, I don't think I made it to Endgame with my alt before jumping over to LEGO Fortnite when the Star Wars Island dropped.
In an RPG, I want to be focused on the Hero's Journey of Class Progression.
And I want that Class/Adventurer Leveling to feel like it's progressing at a steady pace hour-to-hour - rather than feeling like I've been stuck at Level 27/50 for more than 16 hours.
These days, devs have other, better, solutions to ending Endgame besides slow Leveling.
Grinding mobs is not supposed to feel fun. It's supposed to feel immensely tedious and boring.
But, Lineage II players will say they love grinding mobs.
I am a Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time player - so I don't feel rewarded by completing tedious and difficult challenges. There is no decent compensation for tedious gameplay.
(I think that explains why you want Leveling to max Adventurer to be longer than 225 and no one can provide you with a counterpoint you perceive to be decent: it's because that heavy time investment makes the monotony feel like an Achievement. "It took forever and it was kinda boring, but I finally got there!")
I enjoy playing New World. And I don't grind mobs in New World. I do a bunch of Questing and Exploring and Gathering and Crafting and Tasks in New World and also sometimes I kill mobs.
And I don't think about how long it takes me to reach max Character Level. It's not even a goal.
I mean... I don't feel any artificial gatekeeping in New World.
But, that is exactly what it seems like you mean when you say that reaching max Level Adventurer should take longer than 225 hours.
Yeah. I don't run Dungeons in New World. And, of course, I rarely PvP in New World.
I hope we haven't lost the plot here.
And to make this post more useful than that. TL data.
9h in, level 23. I couldn't start the next Main Story Quest until I hit 23. I went and killed some boars for meat to cook with. I'm on the 'Grinder' side of behaviour, so I probably missed some story beats. JustVine reports that she didn't need to grind, she is the 'Story' side of behaviour during story heavy segments and tends to only enjoy grinding later. Neither of us follows guides or tries to rush it, though I read faster than the voice acting so I sometimes press through half of it.
So it's actually still correct. It's balanced almost perfectly on the edge. As all things should be. I bet I will also need to do a few contracts/kill some mobs at 26-27, and again at 30-31, and she probably won't.
My conclusion is that the feedback was taken in context, same as with Intrepid.
Also, there is no need to generalize. I didn't really enjoy grinding itself - it was okayish, but competition and open world PvP made it fun.
It doesn't matter what you feel, it's an objective fact. And I'm sorry, but facts don't care about your feelings. Watermark system alone is a ridiculous attempt to force people do monotonous trash with no option to even know that the system exists or any UI that allows to track the progress you've made (it was like that for months until they realized it needs to be changed). And before you say that "oh, same will be with leveling in Ashes" - no, it won't. There is plenty of ways to gain XP, not just one.
And please stop quoting and/or replying to me. We literally talk in different languages and this conversation makes little to no sense
Whi ever necro'd the other thread really should learn how to use forums better.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Give it up, Flanker.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
So... that is not an example of gatekeeping affecting the Leveling speed.
I have fun running the BPs and exploring whatever drops with the new Season updates. None of that is monotonous to me
I wouldn't compare Leveling in NW with Leveling in Ashes.
NW does not have Classes.
Nor does not have progression paths for Races, Social Orgs, and Religions.
Nor does NW have an Augments feature.
Nor does NW have anything similar to the Nodes system.
The Events system for Ashes is designed to be much more robust than the one in NW.
Ashes adding new content with Seasonal updates will likely be quite similar to NW.
Makes little to no sense to you because logic cannot penetrate your confirmation bias.
You can stop replying to me if you wish.
I'm just pointing out the flaws in your perspective to other people in the Forums.
It's not all about you.
I'm speechless and can't force myself to reply to this nonsense
RIP
1. When Levelling you do story arcs to gain xp for yourself and the node.
At Max Level you do story arcs to gain xp for your node.
2. When levelling you level crafting skills and level augments you haven't maxed out yet
At Max Level you level crafting skills and level augments you haven't maxed out yet.
3. When levelling you do PvP against same level nodes for contested resources.
At Max Level you do PvP against same level nodes for contested resources.
4. When levelling you do group content in dungeons and raids.
At Max Level you do group content in dungeons and raids.
I just don't see the difference between the levelling experience and the Max Level experience except for the High Seas and other lawless areas. My thought is that you think the world will be more crowded and that the 80+ Nodes will all be too high for a new player, but I think there will be plenty of low level nodes in clumps around the map that will give players room to level new nodes at least to level5. The "content" will change as new story arcs can be added on the fly, and all sorts of events and conditions can be added, by completing or failing them.
If you don't enjoy the levelling I don't think the end game is going to be a whole lot different. But 90% of the content will be story arcs and randomized content for POIs/Nodes of 4/5/6, which I suspect will be easy/moderate/hard content for max (or near max) level players. And you will need to be a citizen of a 5/6 Node to do the hardest content.
I understand that you see some kind of dichotomy between Levelling and End Game, but essentially I think you are doing the same thing, because of this concept that you are not just levelling/building your character, you are levelling/building your node/team. And the experience will be different every time based on Node Type and Biome differences.
Thats it. Intrepid, we‘ve solved it for you.
Yeah, and once again - the gap between casuals and hardcore players can be balanced with a properly implemented Rested XP system
People who don't mind longer leveling mostly have experience in such games and they understand that it is not an issue at all, especially if leveling is rewarding and not boring.
On the other hand, those who don't like this idea usually or mostly don't have such experience. Anything new or unknown often triggers a certain level of anxiety, especially in situations with limited information.
225 hours to max Adventurer Level is long enough. Especially for a game that has plenty of rewarding and fun stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer.
Players who wish to extend the time it takes to reach max Level Adventurer can do so by doing other stuff and pursuing other progression paths, rather than waiting until the complete the Adventurer progression path.
Most likely, they don't agree that grinding mobs is okayish and fun. Many, if not most. here have had the experience of reaching Level cap taking longer than 225 hours.
Steven, Jeffrey Bard and Bill Trost have also had that experieince. Which is why Ashes is already designed to dodge the bullet that causes you such great paranoia.
The Ashes design already has new numerous solutions for fun stuff to do after spending 225 hours to reach max Level Adventurer. You, Mr. Pot, are the one who can't accept those new solutions and are obsessed with a slower Leveling speed being a necessary solution.
Once again: If we ever end up on some stream or podcast together at some point in future, I would gladly debate you 1 on 1 on this topic. You are kind of too high on theorycrafting and imaginative issues that have nothing to do with the reality. And I've lost interest in addressing that on the forum a long time ago.
Once again:
> Openly admits that he does not belong to the target audience of Ashes;
> Has a tendency to worry about weird things, such as "Why do I have to worry about ecological consequences of me gathering resources?"[/quote]
Once again- that describes you. Since you are the one asking for changes to the design while I am not asking for changes to the design.
PvP really has nothing to with Leveling speed to max Adventurer Level.
You can join us on The Ashen Forge. We love to have guests.
You are the one who is obsessed with a problem for which Steven and Intrepid have already designed many solutions... And you are the one so entrenched in your own delusions that you ignore those solutions as if Ashes has not already done anything to address the Endgame conundrum.
The reality is that, for Ashes, programming the Leveling speed to max Adventurer Level to be significantly longer than 225 hours is unecessary because they already have designed plenty of other stuff to do after reaching max Adventurer Level.
You say you have lost interest in addressing on the forums... and yet you keep doing so...