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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Rogue Wishlist
Tantrum
Member, Alpha Two
THIS IS MY ORIGINAL POST
Hello.
I was inspired by the Summoner wishlist, so here we go for rogue:
Stealth & Mobility
1. Stealth: Temporarily become invisible to enemies. Moving slowly reduces detection range. Advanced upgrades could include partial invisibility during combat.
2. Wall Climbing: Ability to climb walls or cliffs for ambushes or infiltration. Could pair well with stealth mechanics for reaching otherwise inaccessible areas.
3. Acrobatic Movements: Perform flips, rolls, and evasive maneuvers to avoid enemy attacks or quickly reposition on the battlefield.
4. Shadow Step: Instantly teleport a short distance behind an enemy or into cover, useful for quick escapes or surprise attacks.
Combat & Weapon Skills
5. Close Combat (Dagger Mastery): Proficient with dual-wielding daggers. Includes fast, precise strikes, with higher critical hit chances from behind or in stealth.
6. Throwing Daggers: Range attack option that allows throwing daggers with precision. Upgrades could include poison-tipped or explosive variants.
7. Poison Crafting: Brew deadly poisons and venoms to coat weapons or use as traps. Different poisons could cause effects like paralysis, damage over time, or blindness.
Utility & Sabotage
8. Pickpocketing: Steal small amounts of currency or items from NPCs without being detected. Could scale with skill, allowing higher rewards with greater risks.
9. Lockpicking: Unlock doors, treasure chests, or secure containers. More challenging locks might require higher skill levels or special tools.
10. Disguises: Assume the appearance of an NPC to infiltrate enemy ranks or access restricted areas without arousing suspicion.
11. Trap Setting: Place traps to damage, slow, or immobilize enemies. Disarm or disable enemy traps to gain an advantage in battle.
What are your thoughts on this rogue skillset? Are there any particular abilities you’d like to see added or balanced differently to make the rogue class more engaging in Ashes of Creation?
THIS IS THE SUMMARY OF THE THREADS:
Core Rogue Abilities (Baseline Rogue):
Stealth and Invisibility: Standard stealth ability, allowing the rogue to become invisible to enemies.
Backstab: High burst damage when attacking from behind or while stealthed.
Poison Coating: Coats weapons with poison for a limited time, applying a damage-over-time (DoT) effect.
Disarm Trap: Detect and disarm traps in the environment, protecting the party.
Sap: A single-target incapacitating ability, used to stun or disable an enemy before combat starts.
Evasion Roll: A quick dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks or reposition quickly.
Throwing Knives: A ranged attack that can be augmented into different projectiles (poison bombs, shurikens, etc.).
Cloak of Shadows: A quick stealth ability to evade detection in combat or reset an encounter.
Rogues Luck: A party wide buff that gives luck.
Smokebomb: A skill that helps the rogue to hide during combat - many of you want it work differently.
Rogue Subclasses / Archetypes
Assassin (Rogue/Rogue): Mostly unanimously
Assassinate: Instantly deal massive damage to a vulnerable target from stealth. Critical strike chance is significantly increased.
Death’s Dance: A flurry of slashes that hit multiple enemies around the rogue in rapid succession.
Lethal Poison: A stronger version of poison coating, applying deadly toxins that cause increased DoT or additional effects like paralysis.
Vanish: Instantly re-enter stealth after a successful assassination, allowing for chain kills.
Shadow Strike: A teleport attack where the rogue instantly strikes a target and teleports behind them.
Duelist (Rogue/Fighter): Mostly unanimously
Parry and Riposte: Allows the rogue to block an attack and immediately counter with a quick strike.
Blade Dance: A series of rapid melee attacks that increase in speed and damage with each successful hit.
Feint: Fakes an attack, causing the enemy to lower their guard, allowing the rogue to follow up with a stronger blow.
Swordplay Mastery: Passively increases attack speed and critical strike chance when fighting with dual-wielded weapons.
Quick Step: A short dash that enhances mobility, allowing the rogue to quickly reposition in close combat.
Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank): Mostly unanimously
Shadow Shield: Surrounds the rogue in a protective barrier of shadows, reducing incoming damage for a short period.
Dark Taunt: Draws the attention of enemies by invoking shadowy illusions, forcing them to attack the rogue.
Evasive Defense: A defensive stance that increases dodge and parry chances while reducing damage dealt.
Shadow Cloak: An improved stealth ability that allows the rogue to avoid detection even while being attacked.
Deflecting Shadows: Summons shadowy clones that take hits in the rogue’s place, absorbing a percentage of damage.
Predator (Rogue/Ranger): Mostly unanimously
Ambush: Launches a high-damage attack from stealth, with increased damage at long range.
Trap Mastery: Sets deadly traps that deal damage, debuff enemies, or immobilize them.
Poison Trap: A hidden trap that releases a cloud of poison, damaging all enemies within the area.
Marked for Death: Marks a target, increasing damage dealt to that enemy by the rogue and their allies.
Camouflage: Blends into the environment, increasing stealth duration and reducing the chance of being detected at range.
Nightspell (Rogue/Mage): Mostly unanimously
Ninja Blink: Teleports the rogue a short distance, leaving behind a shadow clone to confuse enemies.
Arcane Poison: Applies magical poisons to weapons, dealing arcane damage over time and potentially silencing enemies.
Shadow Bolt: A ranged shadow-based attack that deals damage and siphons health from the target.
Phantom Step: Teleports behind an enemy and deals an instant strike, followed by increased attack speed.
Illusionary Strike: Strikes enemies with spectral blades, dealing arcane damage and confusing enemies about the rogue’s location.
Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner): People have different ideas
Summon Shadows: Summons multiple shadowy clones to fight alongside the rogue, dealing damage or acting as distractions.
Shadow Overwhelm: The rogue and their shadow clones converge on a single target, dealing massive damage.
Shadow Portal: Opens a small portal allowing the rogue to instantly switch places with one of their shadow clones.
Living Shadows: Enhances shadow clones, allowing them to absorb a portion of incoming damage and deal more powerful attacks.
Shadow Link: Transfers some of the damage taken by the rogue to their summoned shadows.
Shadow pull: instead of having shadowstep, the Shadowlord pulls the enemy infront of him with the enemies back turned, possibly stunning the enemy. Won't work against bosses.
Charlatan (Rogue/Bard): People have different ideas
Illusionary Strike: Creates a false attack, causing the enemy to react to the wrong threat and opening them up for a real strike.
Misdirection: Causes enemies to attack an illusion of the rogue instead of the rogue themselves.
Buff Theft: Steals a beneficial buff from an enemy and grants it to the rogue or their allies.
Confounding Illusions: Casts an illusion that causes enemies to mistake their allies for foes, causing confusion and friendly fire.
Deceptive Performance: Temporarily increases the rogue’s evasion and makes it harder for enemies to detect their true location.
Trickster (Bard/Rogue): People have different ideas
Mirror Image: Creates decoy images of the rogue that can move and attack, confusing enemies about the real rogue’s location.
Illusionary Arrow: Fires an arrow that creates a decoy when it hits, distracting enemies from the real target.
Phantom Blade: Throws a spectral dagger that passes through enemies, dealing damage to all in its path.
Disappearing Act: Temporarily causes all allies within a certain range to vanish from enemy sight, allowing them to reposition.
Illusion Barrage: Fires a series of illusionary projectiles that each appear as a real threat, overwhelming enemies with visual confusion.
Cultist (Rogue/Cleric): Mostly unanimously
Sacrificial Strike: The rogue deals increased damage by sacrificing a portion of their own health.
Dark Invocation: Calls upon a shadowy deity to empower the rogue’s attacks or curse enemies.
Siphon Life: Strikes an enemy with a cursed blade, draining health from the target and healing the rogue.
Blood Offering: The rogue sacrifices health to grant a temporary boost to their damage or defenses.
Cursed Mark: Places a dark curse on an enemy, reducing their attack power and causing damage over time.
Some of you prefer the Shadowlord to be the illusionist and the Charlatan something else. Some of you prefer the Songcaller to be the illusionist and not the Trickster.
Out-of-Combat Utilities (Across All Subclasses):
Trap Disarmament: Detect and disarm traps in the environment.
Lockpicking: Open locked doors, chests, or secure containers.
Pickpocketing: Steal small items or information from NPCs.
Scouting: Use stealth to safely explore dangerous areas or mark enemy positions.
Cloak Allies: Temporarily hide party members, allowing them to bypass enemies or reset encounters.
Shadow Traversal: Use shadows to bypass obstacles or travel through narrow passageways.
Environmental Sabotage: Disable enemy alarms or sabotage environmental elements for strategic advantages.
Secret Passage Discovery: Locate hidden doors or tunnels that offer shortcuts or secret loot.
Misdirection: Confuse enemies or rival parties with false trails or misleading clues.
Poison Crafting: Craft poisons to enhance weapons, traps, or other items for both combat and utility purposes.
Shadow Resource Mechanic
Shadow Points: The rogue starts with 100 Shadow Points. Shadow Points are used to activate stealth abilities. When the rogue runs out of Shadow Points, they cannot use stealth skills until they regain Shadow Points through specific abilities or actions.
Rogue minigames
Rogue utilites would require solving a minigame
Hello.
I was inspired by the Summoner wishlist, so here we go for rogue:
Stealth & Mobility
1. Stealth: Temporarily become invisible to enemies. Moving slowly reduces detection range. Advanced upgrades could include partial invisibility during combat.
2. Wall Climbing: Ability to climb walls or cliffs for ambushes or infiltration. Could pair well with stealth mechanics for reaching otherwise inaccessible areas.
3. Acrobatic Movements: Perform flips, rolls, and evasive maneuvers to avoid enemy attacks or quickly reposition on the battlefield.
4. Shadow Step: Instantly teleport a short distance behind an enemy or into cover, useful for quick escapes or surprise attacks.
Combat & Weapon Skills
5. Close Combat (Dagger Mastery): Proficient with dual-wielding daggers. Includes fast, precise strikes, with higher critical hit chances from behind or in stealth.
6. Throwing Daggers: Range attack option that allows throwing daggers with precision. Upgrades could include poison-tipped or explosive variants.
7. Poison Crafting: Brew deadly poisons and venoms to coat weapons or use as traps. Different poisons could cause effects like paralysis, damage over time, or blindness.
Utility & Sabotage
8. Pickpocketing: Steal small amounts of currency or items from NPCs without being detected. Could scale with skill, allowing higher rewards with greater risks.
9. Lockpicking: Unlock doors, treasure chests, or secure containers. More challenging locks might require higher skill levels or special tools.
10. Disguises: Assume the appearance of an NPC to infiltrate enemy ranks or access restricted areas without arousing suspicion.
11. Trap Setting: Place traps to damage, slow, or immobilize enemies. Disarm or disable enemy traps to gain an advantage in battle.
What are your thoughts on this rogue skillset? Are there any particular abilities you’d like to see added or balanced differently to make the rogue class more engaging in Ashes of Creation?
THIS IS THE SUMMARY OF THE THREADS:
Core Rogue Abilities (Baseline Rogue):
Stealth and Invisibility: Standard stealth ability, allowing the rogue to become invisible to enemies.
Backstab: High burst damage when attacking from behind or while stealthed.
Poison Coating: Coats weapons with poison for a limited time, applying a damage-over-time (DoT) effect.
Disarm Trap: Detect and disarm traps in the environment, protecting the party.
Sap: A single-target incapacitating ability, used to stun or disable an enemy before combat starts.
Evasion Roll: A quick dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks or reposition quickly.
Throwing Knives: A ranged attack that can be augmented into different projectiles (poison bombs, shurikens, etc.).
Cloak of Shadows: A quick stealth ability to evade detection in combat or reset an encounter.
Rogues Luck: A party wide buff that gives luck.
Smokebomb: A skill that helps the rogue to hide during combat - many of you want it work differently.
Rogue Subclasses / Archetypes
Assassin (Rogue/Rogue): Mostly unanimously
Assassinate: Instantly deal massive damage to a vulnerable target from stealth. Critical strike chance is significantly increased.
Death’s Dance: A flurry of slashes that hit multiple enemies around the rogue in rapid succession.
Lethal Poison: A stronger version of poison coating, applying deadly toxins that cause increased DoT or additional effects like paralysis.
Vanish: Instantly re-enter stealth after a successful assassination, allowing for chain kills.
Shadow Strike: A teleport attack where the rogue instantly strikes a target and teleports behind them.
Duelist (Rogue/Fighter): Mostly unanimously
Parry and Riposte: Allows the rogue to block an attack and immediately counter with a quick strike.
Blade Dance: A series of rapid melee attacks that increase in speed and damage with each successful hit.
Feint: Fakes an attack, causing the enemy to lower their guard, allowing the rogue to follow up with a stronger blow.
Swordplay Mastery: Passively increases attack speed and critical strike chance when fighting with dual-wielded weapons.
Quick Step: A short dash that enhances mobility, allowing the rogue to quickly reposition in close combat.
Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank): Mostly unanimously
Shadow Shield: Surrounds the rogue in a protective barrier of shadows, reducing incoming damage for a short period.
Dark Taunt: Draws the attention of enemies by invoking shadowy illusions, forcing them to attack the rogue.
Evasive Defense: A defensive stance that increases dodge and parry chances while reducing damage dealt.
Shadow Cloak: An improved stealth ability that allows the rogue to avoid detection even while being attacked.
Deflecting Shadows: Summons shadowy clones that take hits in the rogue’s place, absorbing a percentage of damage.
Predator (Rogue/Ranger): Mostly unanimously
Ambush: Launches a high-damage attack from stealth, with increased damage at long range.
Trap Mastery: Sets deadly traps that deal damage, debuff enemies, or immobilize them.
Poison Trap: A hidden trap that releases a cloud of poison, damaging all enemies within the area.
Marked for Death: Marks a target, increasing damage dealt to that enemy by the rogue and their allies.
Camouflage: Blends into the environment, increasing stealth duration and reducing the chance of being detected at range.
Nightspell (Rogue/Mage): Mostly unanimously
Ninja Blink: Teleports the rogue a short distance, leaving behind a shadow clone to confuse enemies.
Arcane Poison: Applies magical poisons to weapons, dealing arcane damage over time and potentially silencing enemies.
Shadow Bolt: A ranged shadow-based attack that deals damage and siphons health from the target.
Phantom Step: Teleports behind an enemy and deals an instant strike, followed by increased attack speed.
Illusionary Strike: Strikes enemies with spectral blades, dealing arcane damage and confusing enemies about the rogue’s location.
Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner): People have different ideas
Summon Shadows: Summons multiple shadowy clones to fight alongside the rogue, dealing damage or acting as distractions.
Shadow Overwhelm: The rogue and their shadow clones converge on a single target, dealing massive damage.
Shadow Portal: Opens a small portal allowing the rogue to instantly switch places with one of their shadow clones.
Living Shadows: Enhances shadow clones, allowing them to absorb a portion of incoming damage and deal more powerful attacks.
Shadow Link: Transfers some of the damage taken by the rogue to their summoned shadows.
Shadow pull: instead of having shadowstep, the Shadowlord pulls the enemy infront of him with the enemies back turned, possibly stunning the enemy. Won't work against bosses.
Charlatan (Rogue/Bard): People have different ideas
Illusionary Strike: Creates a false attack, causing the enemy to react to the wrong threat and opening them up for a real strike.
Misdirection: Causes enemies to attack an illusion of the rogue instead of the rogue themselves.
Buff Theft: Steals a beneficial buff from an enemy and grants it to the rogue or their allies.
Confounding Illusions: Casts an illusion that causes enemies to mistake their allies for foes, causing confusion and friendly fire.
Deceptive Performance: Temporarily increases the rogue’s evasion and makes it harder for enemies to detect their true location.
Trickster (Bard/Rogue): People have different ideas
Mirror Image: Creates decoy images of the rogue that can move and attack, confusing enemies about the real rogue’s location.
Illusionary Arrow: Fires an arrow that creates a decoy when it hits, distracting enemies from the real target.
Phantom Blade: Throws a spectral dagger that passes through enemies, dealing damage to all in its path.
Disappearing Act: Temporarily causes all allies within a certain range to vanish from enemy sight, allowing them to reposition.
Illusion Barrage: Fires a series of illusionary projectiles that each appear as a real threat, overwhelming enemies with visual confusion.
Cultist (Rogue/Cleric): Mostly unanimously
Sacrificial Strike: The rogue deals increased damage by sacrificing a portion of their own health.
Dark Invocation: Calls upon a shadowy deity to empower the rogue’s attacks or curse enemies.
Siphon Life: Strikes an enemy with a cursed blade, draining health from the target and healing the rogue.
Blood Offering: The rogue sacrifices health to grant a temporary boost to their damage or defenses.
Cursed Mark: Places a dark curse on an enemy, reducing their attack power and causing damage over time.
Some of you prefer the Shadowlord to be the illusionist and the Charlatan something else. Some of you prefer the Songcaller to be the illusionist and not the Trickster.
Out-of-Combat Utilities (Across All Subclasses):
Trap Disarmament: Detect and disarm traps in the environment.
Lockpicking: Open locked doors, chests, or secure containers.
Pickpocketing: Steal small items or information from NPCs.
Scouting: Use stealth to safely explore dangerous areas or mark enemy positions.
Cloak Allies: Temporarily hide party members, allowing them to bypass enemies or reset encounters.
Shadow Traversal: Use shadows to bypass obstacles or travel through narrow passageways.
Environmental Sabotage: Disable enemy alarms or sabotage environmental elements for strategic advantages.
Secret Passage Discovery: Locate hidden doors or tunnels that offer shortcuts or secret loot.
Misdirection: Confuse enemies or rival parties with false trails or misleading clues.
Poison Crafting: Craft poisons to enhance weapons, traps, or other items for both combat and utility purposes.
Shadow Resource Mechanic
Shadow Points: The rogue starts with 100 Shadow Points. Shadow Points are used to activate stealth abilities. When the rogue runs out of Shadow Points, they cannot use stealth skills until they regain Shadow Points through specific abilities or actions.
Rogue minigames
Rogue utilites would require solving a minigame
Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
8
Comments
3/4. Agree with mobility, don't know personally which aesthetic to lean into for rogues. They can either go normal physical evasion or magical shadow magic to dance around. But rogues should still contain the most amount of mobility in the game in trade for their squishyness.
5. I feel instead of straight dagger mastery it should be something similar to evasion mastery. Rogues are designed to be in and out fast, allow their weapon combos to reduce the cool down on their stealth/mobility abilities. Their kit is designed to be mobile, so the players will orient around fast paced weapons to get their mobility back faster.
7. Poisons could instead be the ranger's mark and hunt system for the rogues, but it needs to be unique to them. Maybe make it similar to the ammunition system were poisons last for X seconds (which also means faster weapon combos apply more often). Maybe have a mastery system similar to bard in which you can combo multiple poisons for stacking effects. Maybe having something called Catalytic Reaction where if 2 poisons are both on it applies X effect.
so I'd like that to be an option.
-Lifesteal rogue (could be rogue/cleric)
-Magic based rogue (could be rogue/mage)
-Acrobatic rogue that gives up stealth for more evasion/movement
-Poison/dot spec
-Trap spec
- Anti heal/debuff (could be rouge/bard)
- Illusionist such as leaving clones/smoke bombs/maybe vision based CCs/etc (could be rogue/ summoner)
I personally am a huge fan of invis as a rogue, I'm neither here nor there on how visible you actually are when invis and its not about being fully invisible or not for me. What matters is that its effective and actually works to its intended effect without being OP. I am a huge fan of abilities with high skill ceilings and hope that invisibility as a rogue comes more down to the skill of the rogue rather than a roll of the dice as to whether or not someone will see your outline or not. I think a combo of full invis with enough ways to be revealed or a MOSTLY invis that can still be seen while moving but cant be while standing still after X seconds and less but still some ways of being revealed will have to be chosen. Personally I think for the style of game AoC looks to become the latter will be better. Maybe even make it so that it works based on movement speed. An example per say is that standing still = full invis, walking/possibly scaling walls = ~90% invis, and sprinting= 70-80% invis. There could even be a factor if needed in which the closer you are to the rogue the more visible they are such as 100% while standing no matter distance, only 75% when walking within 5 to 10 meters, and only 50-65% while sprinting within 5 to 10 meters. Im excited to see what they make of it and just hope whatever path they take with the invis doesnt turn into something underwhelmingly ineffective or not versatile enough for consistent use.
I'd even go so far as to trade Stealth for more evasiveness with a tank augment - making me 'blurred' and harder to hit, but not actually making me invisible.
1. Have a rogue archetype.
At this point anything would be nice just to see what they are working on. All we hear are whispers of rogue. I know they are stealthy, but damn.
Best rogue concept and design for me still was and is rogue gameplay from WoW. Permanent stealth, showing up for ugly damage, CC'n/stunlocking enemies to painful limits. But: Weaker in long lasting fights, weaker without possibilities to stun or without good CDs available, very good in 1v1 and small scale fights, weaker in large scale pvp fights. Reasonable in PvE/Dungeon as pure damage dealer with only some support abilities.
Rest of your points sounds default to nice, I agree.
I envision a rogue's stealth akin to the Nightingale ability from Skyrim. When out of combat, the rogue remains cloaked in a veil of invisibility, persistent and undisturbed. However, upon entering combat, this concealment would falter, introducing a gauge—a finite reserve of shadow. The rogue may draw upon this to briefly vanish again during the fray, but with each use, the gauge drains. Once depleted, the rogue can no longer retreat into the shadows and must face their opponent openly, until their stealth reserves have recovered.
I also have some Rogue derived class concepts.
Rogue/Bard Charlatan
Charlatans focus on the delivering a burst of buffs to allies as they deal damage to oponents. When they attack they both apply debuffs and can steal buffs off their victim and give that buff to all their nearby allies for a short duration. To aid in buff stealing they can see buffs on nearby oponents and also have a set of misdirection abilities ideal for buying time. While weak at the moment they reveal themselves the compounding effects of their buffs can reach rapid creshendo carrying them and their team to victory.
Rogue/Cleric Cultist
Cultist focus on long casting time high impact dark rituals while in stealth. Their rituals can empower themselves and team mates with temporary Health and lifesteal abilities to unleash in deadly surprise attacks if they can complete their castings before being detected. The Cultist essentially 'banks' all the healing need for a battle before it starts allowing them and their team to devote themselves fully to the attack once battle is joined.
Rogue/Fighter Duelist
A master of single target engagement the Duelist is unshakable, once engeged they gain gaining immunity to many CC and peel effects from their target foe, but not from bystanders. Their evasion, robustness and high burst damage and DoT's make them deadly against even the strongest foe, but their ability to sustain prolonged group fights or escape from their foes allies is minimal compared with a true fighter.
Rouge/Mage Nightspell
Magically augmenting their stealth with teleportation the Nightspell is excellent at getting past enemy defenses. Once inside they add numerous magical debuffs to both their melee target and any surrounding foes which disrupt or criple effective response such as silencing, mana stealing and AoE poison blasts.
Rogue/Ranger Predator
The ideal sniper, the Predator stalks their target and fires from stealth without revealing themselves so long as they limit their rate of fire. While a single attack can only drop already weakened oponents they are ideal at pursuing and applying snares and slows with their ranged attacks on fleeing groups wich will leave straglers which can then be easily finished off by a pursuing group or by the Predator themself at their leisure.
Rogue/Rogue Assasin
Master of Stealth the Assasin seeks to strike from total surprise and deliver lethal burst damage before melting back into the shadows to strike agian, they lack the ability to sustain even a fight against a tank or fighter archetypes should it not go down promptly but have excellent disengagement ability to reset and pick a better time to attack.
Rogue/Summoner Shadow Lord
A master of misdirection the Shadow lord not only moves stealthfully but through throwing their voice and using ticks of light and shadow they can split off false images of themselves which they can move at will to confuse their enemies and bait out spells, unwise pursuit and countermeasures and escape if an engagement is unfavorable. AKA Shadow clone Jitsu or Wu Kong from LoL
Rogue/Tank Shadow Guardian
Utilizing the tools of the Rogue to protect allies the Shadow Guardian gives up some damage and stealth for battlefield control. They employ smoke bombs to conceal friendly forces while engaging oponents with flurries of pressure point attacks and paralitic darts that render their foes too slow and weak to land blows on the evasive Shadow Guardian who can dodge ludicours amounts of both melee and ranged attack. Monk style of play.
Sounds like your asking for a defined class resource, like Courage, Momentum and Divine Favor. I could see this working but it needs to be a bit more defined. How dose it regenerate, it sounds like you expect it to be full out of combat but also describe it regenerating from retreat, is is simply time not engaged in combat which regenerates it? Do attacks by the Rogue drain it? Can enemy actions like dealing damage or using anti-stealth abilities/items drain it? Most class resources can't be drained by enemy action but stealth nessesitates the ability to be broken by enemy action so do you allow only the 'popping' of the individual vanished state or can the shadow resource itself be drained?
Yes, I do imagine stealth functioning as a class resource, similar to the systems you mentioned like Courage or Momentum. To clarify:
The stealth gauge would fully regenerate while the rogue is out of combat for a short period, reflecting their mastery of blending into the shadows during downtime. However, while in combat, the gauge would only regenerate slowly if all enemies are under the 'blinded' status. If not, the rogue cannot restore their shadow reserve in the heat of battle, making positioning and tactical use of abilities crucial.
Attacks by the rogue wouldn’t necessarily drain it unless they use a stealth-based ability. The gauge represents their ability to disappear and re-enter stealth, so the more often they do so, the faster it depletes.
As for enemy interaction, I would propose a two-part system: enemies can ‘pop’ the stealth through direct actions (like AoE attacks or anti-stealth abilities), forcing the rogue to reappear. But the shadow gauge itself could remain intact and undrained unless the rogue is in combat and reusing stealth mid-fight. Essentially, enemies can force a rogue out of stealth, but cannot directly drain the resource itself, only hinder the rogue’s ability to stay hidden.
I envision this system encouraging strategic stealth use, making it more than just a button you press to escape but a resource to be managed thoughtfully. What do you think?
One system I have witnessed being shared is the weapon combo cooldown/resource reduction system. I could see your system in place with the caveat that it CAN be regenerated in combat, but it requires the completion of a weapon combo. Weapon combos wont always go off correctly due to stuns, distance, and other things but it would keep the rogue out of stealth to ensure they can regain their capability to get back into stealth.
But I need a better difinition of 'out of combat' for it to regenerate, dose that mean neaither dealing or being delt damage for a period of time? It needs to be a definition which works in PvP and PvE so it can not simply utilize the combatant flagging system. And how fast of a regen rate are we talking about?
I do feel some regeneration of shadow in combat is possible but needs to be limited. A weapon attack should definitly NOT give it too you as that is counterintuitive, attacking makes hiding harder not easier. I DO think a Damage buff stack coming from weapon combos fits traditionally with Rogue combo-finisher type systems that WoW popularized.
An ability like throwing a smoke bomb and standing in its area of effect is the kind of thing which I could see generating shadow, plus reducing the shadow cost to go into stealth.
Ballpark numbers if your shadow resource is 0 to 100, would stealthing cost say 20 Shadow? 10 Shadow? Are their any uses for it other then going into stealth such as maybe fast movement, damage bonus, applying a DoT to ones next attack?
Out of Combat: Shadow would regenerate under a few different conditions to suit both PvP and PvE scenarios. Either:
20 seconds of neither dealing nor taking damage from any opponent.
5 seconds after everyone has sheathed their weapons (when the system flags all combatants as out of combat).
Immediately when all enemies are defeated.
This should make the transition to Shadow regeneration feel natural, and allows Rogues to reset only when truly out of immediate danger.
In-Combat Regeneration: I agree that attacking shouldn’t replenish Shadow—it should be reserved for more tactical use. Certain abilities, like using a smoke bomb to obscure yourself from enemies, could generate Shadow. However, this needs to be applied carefully: if you throw a smoke bomb at your own feet, your position is effectively revealed, since enemies will know you're hiding within the smoke. Worse, you'd blind yourself, losing tactical advantage. The bomb should be used to disorient enemies and create confusion—not to give away your location.
In addition to the smoke bomb, applying the 'blinded' status to enemies (through abilities like flash powder or eye gouge) could also regenerate Shadow. This gives Rogues a dynamic way to engage with enemies while still maintaining their elusive nature. Also different rogue types could regain shadow in other ways.
For example:
Charlatans might generate Shadow by stealing buffs.
Assassins could regain Shadow by successfully disengaging after a kill.
Nightspells might regenerate Shadow through teleportation or mana-draining abilities, weakening their enemies while preparing to fade back into the shadows.
Ballpark Numbers: Initially, a 20/100 Shadow cost for going into stealth seems reasonable, but this is definitely something to fine-tune during Alpha.
Note that SOME rogue based classes SHOULD be viable dodge tanks, like Rogue/Tank, they obviusly don't fit as anything but a dodge tanks and should be able to hold out much longer then normal rogues, though less then a true tank. This is why I see them as monk like with things like arrow catching to stop ranged physical attacks as well as melee.
Note that overall you want to use the Shadow resources as a way to make a Rogue DEFENCE decline durring battle, not their OFFENCE. Rogues have always been defined by the ambush combo of stealth followed by burst damage, but if a rogues DPS just drops off after a few attacks then they can't do much total damage and even cease to be a priority for an enemy counter attack after their drop off. But by letting their damage remain high but their defence to drop the Rogue is in a 'push your luck' sitiation, their stealth and initial defence have gotten them in and allowed the first burst of damage to be delt at low risk but now with lower defence their risk escalates. Do they remain in battle to keep dishing out high damage at risk of death, or retreat. If they have a damage drop off their is effectivly no choice, they have to retreat even if the enemy has failed to put up an effective response, so defence decline gives Rogues inherently more intersting gameplay.
And if the Rogue truly gets a Fox-in-Hen-House situation where a bunch of oponents are at their mercy and can't counter attack, then the Rogue can rackup a sweet kill streak which is I think a good reward for them and punishment for the other team for failing to guard the squishy party members.
Climbing walls would be awesome, but maybe not by game launch.
1) I would 100% like to see Double Jump be incorporated or even like a parkour double jump where if you are close to a wall you can then jump off it x amount of times and then preform an arial move if executed right.
2) Maybe like a Spider-Man ability where he could shoot a dagger at something and then swing off of a rope.
3) Maybe like taking one from Naruto, where he can create a clone or two.
4) Another one from Naruto, where he could maybe perform a spell when he is in a scenario where he has to do or die and can summon a spiritual armor that gives him a health boost for x amount of seconds and is able to essentially tank for short period of time kind of like Itachis armored Susanoo. Like I said, I think ninja when it comes to a rogue. I think perma invisibility isn't necessarily a good trait nor balanced. As rogue is the best pvp character in WoW hands down. A good rogue in wow > everything.
5) I think taking some ideas from Narutu Characters could make for a very interesting NEW approach that no MMO has taken yet, for rogue.
Eh FFXIV also went this route with the rogue being forced to become a ninja and the aesthetic didn't vibe with people all that well. It depends on how deep you go into the "ninja" because it went from a dark and gritty fighter with stealth and lowblows to a character naruto running, throwing shuriken, front flip jumping, and shadow clones.
Don't get me wrong those can be fun, but not everyone leans into the ninja aesthetic and replacing rogue with a ninja based built would not vibe well with many people.
I would dismiss the ninja thing because, at its core, what is a ninja but an Asian rogue? They are essentially the same archetype—just dressed differently. While one might conjure up images of Naruto or flipping shuriken, the essence of both classes is the same: high mobility, stealth, and deadly precision.
To build on what I’ve already mentioned, I envision my rogue with ultra-high mobility, acrobatic maneuvers, stealth, poison-coated blades, throwing knives, and quick dagger strikes. Smoke bombs, shadow clones and disguises naturally belong in his kit, too. Whether you call it a rogue or a ninja, the core mechanics remain aligned.
To the point about rogues becoming forced into a ninja aesthetic like in FFXIV—I agree, that aesthetic shift didn’t vibe with everyone. But the core idea of a stealthy, agile, and versatile character can be maintained without leaning too heavily into a specific cultural trope. We could easily incorporate those ninja-like skills but without the heavy "Naruto running" and "shuriken throwing." Instead, we can keep it more grounded and versatile, focusing on agility, poisons, and trickery, appealing to a broader player base.
So, in the end, both of you are right. A rogue is essentially a ninja in different clothes, and the same skill sets can work for both—it’s just a matter of how we dress it up.
I really like your idea of a stacking dodge mechanic that decays with each successful evasion. It adds a nice risk-reward balance to the rogue’s gameplay, ensuring they can’t tank indefinitely through dodging but still feel elusive and hard to pin down. The penalty of reduced stamina regeneration is a smart trade-off. It also fits well with the rogue’s identity as a glass cannon—high burst damage but fragile when caught.
What are your thoughts on extending this further by incorporating a resource like shadow or stamina to replenish dodge stacks over time? This would prevent them from feeling invincible but still allow for strategic re-engagement. I also agree that rogues shouldn’t become tanks—this mechanic would keep them focused on hit-and-run tactics. How do you see this working in large-scale PvP?
I can see the appeal of making evasion a temporary action skill to prevent rogues from becoming too tanky. A short-duration buff would ensure that rogues can avoid damage for a limited time without being overpowered. That said, I don’t love the idea of a high-cooldown ability being the primary way rogues dodge. It feels strange for a rogue to suddenly be unable to dodge simply because a cooldown hasn't reset. Tying evasion to a resource like stamina or shadow might feel more natural, giving players the flexibility to decide when and how much to evade, rather than relying on long cooldowns.
What do you think of adding more active decision-making for evasion management through resource consumption?
I completely agree with your idea of using a resource like shadow to manage evasion, which would give rogues more control over their defense while still ensuring they can't be invincible throughout the entire fight. I also like your perspective on certain rogue subclasses, like Rogue/Tank, having a viable dodge-tank playstyle, where their defense declines over time but they still remain dangerous. This adds variety to rogue builds, letting those who want to go full ambush have their fun while others who prefer survivability in longer fights still have options.
As you pointed out, letting a rogue’s defense, not offense, decline over time feels more in line with their core gameplay. It creates that intense “push-your-luck” situation where they can dish out high damage but have to consider their exit strategy once their defense wanes. This keeps the rogue's burst DPS valuable, but makes staying in the fight longer much riskier. I agree with your conclusion—giving rogues the chance to go on a kill streak rewards skilled play without letting them become invincible.
Would you see this working more effectively in solo play or group dynamics? And how would you envision balancing the rogue’s evasion and offense in a long-duration boss fight?
Evasion tanks, like the Ninja/Warrior in FF11, ought to be viable with dedication on a Rogue/Tank. The delta from Rogue primary to evasion tank is smaller than the delta between tank primary and evasion tank, which is why this only makes sense on a rogue/tank and not on a tank/rogue. Tank primary is more about high health pools and resisting hits, making them highly enduring. Rogues are about evasion and nimbleness.
Evasion tanks are not viable in every type of fight. Evasion tanks will often be floored by attacks they fail to dodge, due to smaller health pool and lower mitigation. They will probably also be weaker when enemies have lots of small attacks, as they can only dodge so many times. They favour avoiding big single attacks to completely negate them.
Being a tank secondary, they woun't be able to hold agro as long or as often as a primary tank. Thus a rogue/tank will likely be used as an off-tank or situationally for the big hits the primary tank can't sit through.
This is very much what I personally am building towards.
This is why I say - I do not care about stealth mechanics. I really hope there is an augment that will convert the rogue's stealth skill into a short 'blur' evasion effect.
You may claim it's not viable, and that it shouldn't be viable - but the FF11 community said that about the Ninja/Warrior until someone built it and made it work and turned it into a staple option.
FFXIV style Ninja is more like the Rogue/Mage. I don't expect the Assassin to have elemental damage type stuff at all.
While it's great to have an option to build an evasion rogue tank, it's important to remember that this option stems from the core rogue, the one that thrives on stealth and unpredictable tactics. Without that standard rogue—the one that attacks from the shadows, applies poisons across the battlefield, jumps around in a flurry of strikes, and disappears only to reappear on the other side for a devastating backstab—you lose the essence of what makes a rogue so dynamic.
Rogues are all about versatility. Their bag of tricks can keep even the most restless, high-energy players engaged. It’s this wide array of clever tactics that makes them so exciting. Only once you’ve mastered that standard rogue playstyle can you evolve it into something like an evasion tank, where stealth mechanics transform into evasive maneuvers.
So while I see the appeal of a rogue/tank evasion build, don't forget that without the foundational rogue who dances between the shadows, poisons, and misdirection, you wouldn't have the flexibility to even consider turning them into a specialized tank. The strength of the rogue lies in that broad set of tricks, which you can then mold into an evasion-based off-tank if you choose.
According evasion (with certain duration) as cooldown-skill: True, it's something like the "oh shit button" - usually every class will get something like this to avoid, block, escape from incoming damage.
Additionally to the idea of evasion management through resource consumption I would hope (and guess) that certain armor pieces (or sets) and weapon skills/perks (surely daggers for instance) will support this kind of rogue-gameplay, so the agile, evading "ninja" or - rogue. Also secondary classes will, I'm pretty sure, augment active action skills in a way that it supports the sneaky, evasion gameplay of a (shadow) rogue. Pretty sure that rogue types like assassin (vanish, stealth, evasion), predator (gap closers, evasion), nightspell (evasion, shadowstep/teleport) or of course shadow guardian (high evasion, block/parr), duelist (lots of parry) will have several skills that supports avoiding damage for the rogue, instead of providing self-heal (cultist?) or life-leech (shadow lord) to the rogue class.
It's important to remeber that the 'core rogue' has to be pretty generic but have ways that can be expanded by their secondaries. Some of those things will be part of the assassin ('pure rogue') kit and might not be available to other rogues. rogue/fighters and rogue/mages ought to have a lot less 'throw poisons and jump around in a flurry of strikes' compared to the assassin.
It's somewhat unfortunate that the developers seem to have decided to give everyone cleric and tank secondaries next May - rather than focusin on the 'pure' classes first. Not that I mind because pretty much every character I intend to play is either/cleric or /tank
The thing is, as Steven Sharif said, the second archetype won’t add entirely new skills—it will transform the skills the rogue already has. So, that basic generic rogue will have the whole kit, with the second archetype affecting how those abilities perform. That means all the core abilities like stealth, poisons, mobility, and crowd control will remain, but will be transformed depending on the secondary choice.
Let me take a guess at how these archetypes might play out based on those transformations:
1. Duelist (Rogue/Fighter)
Stealth → Combat Reflexes: Instead of hiding in shadows, the rogue’s stealth ability could transform into a parry mechanic, making the Duelist adept at deflecting blows. The rogue's Backstab might now trigger a riposte when an enemy misses or gets parried.
Poison → Precision Strikes: Instead of a lingering poison debuff, the Duelist might focus on single-target critical strikes, dealing increased damage when hitting weak points, turning DoT effects into one-shot bursts of damage.
2. Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank)
Stealth → Shadow Mantle: Stealth would become more defensive, transforming into a temporary evasion buff, allowing the rogue to dodge attacks while maintaining aggro on enemies. Similar to Vanish, but now it encourages enemies to focus on the rogue.
Poison → Shadow Toxin: The poison could now weaken enemies, reducing their accuracy and strength, helping the rogue mitigate damage. This turns the rogue’s offensive debuff into a more tank-focused survival tool.
Tendon Slash → Funnel Focus: Instead of simply slowing enemies, the Tendon Slash could morph into a tool to force enemies to focus on the rogue, making it essential in maintaining threat.
3. Assassin (Rogue/Rogue)
Stealth → Shadow Infusion: Stealth could get longer or faster, allowing for quicker re-entry into hiding. The resource management would focus on keeping the rogue in and out of stealth more frequently, making this a pure assassination playstyle.
Poison → Fatal Venom: Poison damage might ramp up, applying stronger, faster-acting poisons, which could deal high burst damage after stealth re-engagement. Deathmark could become more lethal and faster, fitting the assassination fantasy.
Tendon Slash → Swift Strike: This would likely become a high-speed movement ability, letting the rogue dash in and out of combat quickly, hitting weak spots and returning to stealth or repositioning.
4. Predator (Rogue/Ranger)
Stealth → Camouflage: Stealth could transform into a stationary camouflage, allowing the rogue to hide in natural environments. Ambush would trigger from afar, focusing more on traps and ranged poisons.
Poison → Toxic Traps: Instead of throwing poisons directly, Throwing Knives might evolve into setting traps, which apply poison when triggered by enemies. This turns your offensive abilities into zone control mechanics.
Tendon Slash → Snaring Trap: Instead of slowing enemies directly, this would place traps that root or snare enemies that approach, giving you more control over the battlefield.
5. Nightspell (Rogue/Mage)
Stealth → Shadow Phasing: Stealth could transform into phasing in and out of reality. Instead of simply hiding, the rogue might teleport short distances using Shadow Step and leave behind afterimages.
Poison → Arcane Poison: Instead of the traditional poison effect, the rogue’s abilities might take on arcane damage, applying magical debuffs that weaken resistances or deal elemental damage over time.
Tendon Slash → Void Slash: This could become an arcane-infused strike, disorienting enemies with magical energy instead of physical effects, emphasizing ninjutsu-like mobility across the battlefield.
6. Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner)
Stealth → Clone Mastery: Stealth transforms into clone creation, allowing the rogue to summon decoys that confuse enemies. Vanish might now summon several clones that mislead attackers.
Poison → Shadow Poison: Instead of single-target poisons, this ability might apply poison to multiple clones, who spread it by attacking enemies. This turns your DoT into a multi-target debuff, multiplying its effects.
Tendon Slash → Clone Strike: Instead of hitting the target directly, Tendon Slash could involve several clones attacking simultaneously, slowing the target with sheer numbers.
7. Cultist (Rogue/Cleric)
Stealth → Dark Communion: Stealth might now become a ritual where the rogue gains temporary invulnerability or siphons health from enemies while remaining unseen. It could be tied to sacrificing health for powerful buffs or heals.
Poison → Blood Poison: Instead of traditional poison, Blood Poison could transfer damage dealt to the rogue into healing or curses that reduce enemy healing. Venomous Strike could evolve into a self-sacrifice mechanic.
Tendon Slash → Curse Strike: Instead of slowing the enemy, the rogue might apply a curse that drains life or mana from the target, fitting with the dark ritualistic theme.
8. Charlatan (Rogue/Bard)
Stealth → Illusionary Veil: Stealth would focus on creating illusions, allowing the rogue to misdirect enemies. Instead of Vanish, the rogue might leave behind a fake image, misleading foes while attacking from a different angle.
Poison → Illusionary Poison: The rogue’s poison abilities could become debilitating illusions. Instead of physical damage, Throw Poison might now hallucinate enemies, reducing their accuracy or causing them to misjudge their surroundings.
Tendon Slash → Phantom Strike: Instead of a physical slow, Phantom Strike could apply an illusory slow, causing enemies to think they’re hindered while in reality, they're attacking illusions or misjudging distances.
See how all rogue archetypes share the same core abilities, but each secondary archetype transforms them to match a different playstyle. Whether you want to focus on illusion, evasion, or magic, these transformations will allow the rogue to adapt while keeping that core agility, stealth, and versatility.
correct on the first point, incorrect on the second. The question is - how much change can we expect from augments. We can look at Last Epoch to see that skills can change very much while keeping within the same core theme.
Taking a look at the wiki pages for Necromancer and Warlock gives us an idea that the skills can change dramatically.
Thus, the generic rogue won't need a poison throw. Maybe it has a knife toss that could be change to a shuriken or a poison bomb depending on augments.
Your examples are good. Just remember that the current intention is for each secondary archetype to have 4 Augments, so there will be more than one way to spec each skill.
Your example of 'arcane poison' illustrates this. We know mages have blink, lightning, fire, and ice as augments. I hope that blink gets replaced for a more generic 'arcane' to do what you have there, otherwise your hypothetical poison skill would be more like an elemental bomb that inflicts elemental status rather than poison. I'm not sure how 'blink' would work on such a skill except maybe to negate the throw distance and make it appear right at the enemy's feet.
Could you clarify what you mean? I’m not sure I understand why you say I’m wrong. From my perspective, it seems like we’re on the same page, with our only difference being where we draw the line for the basic rogue’s skill set. Could you explain further?
Shadow: Starts being generated after not dealing direct damage or reciving any damage for 10 seconds. Regenerates twice as fast when standing still. Starts at 1 shadow per second, each additinal 10 seconds the rate of generation incresses by 1 per second up to a maximum of 3 per second.
Stealth : Spend 20 Shadow to become invisible, ends upon dealing or reciving any damage or begining a gathering act or entering or exiting node or safezone all of which impose a 5 second cooldown before stealth can be reactivated. While stealthed moving faster then crouch walk will consume shadow at 1 per meter moved. All enchanced Movement abilties consume Shadow while in stealth, but do not require shadow to activate, any act which woiuld consume shadow when shadow is depleted ends stealth.
Blurr : Spend 8 Shadow to create to an after image of the Rogue a fraction of a second behind them, can stack up to 5 Blurr immages which last 1 minute, enemy attacks which would hit you have a chance to hit an image instead and dispell it.
These two abilities are the main consumers of shadow and are independent you can have Blur images while in stealth essentially ready, or create images when out of stealth replacing losses as they happen in a 'ablative dodge' kind of manor.
Consuming shadow with regular walking in stealth is done to prevent easy always stealthed over world travel and particularly stealthed gathering as this would provide an overly easy way to gather without risk of attack. A Rogue could employ stealth to escape from such attacks but it would need to be watchful and reactive due to the no stealth cooldown when gathering.
Movement abilities consuming shadow while stealthed to create a trade off, a Rogue can burnthrough their Shadow faster to move faster and their movement abilities are never blocked by running out of shadow, but if used too much they will end stealth. It is possible to regain shadow while stealth but it requires you to get out of combat and the standing still bonus helps to make the regeneration faster then if your fleeing while stealthed. Walking speeds are generally greater then 3 meters per second so the stealth regeneration is completly overwhelmed by a it but you can go a good distance in a walk before the stealth breaks because the consumption just exceeds the generation and your losing Shadow at about 1 point per second.