Rogue Wishlist

THIS IS MY ORIGINAL POST

Hello.
I was inspired by the Summoner wishlist, so here we go for rogue:

Stealth & Mobility

1. Stealth: Temporarily become invisible to enemies. Moving slowly reduces detection range. Advanced upgrades could include partial invisibility during combat.
2. Wall Climbing: Ability to climb walls or cliffs for ambushes or infiltration. Could pair well with stealth mechanics for reaching otherwise inaccessible areas.
3. Acrobatic Movements: Perform flips, rolls, and evasive maneuvers to avoid enemy attacks or quickly reposition on the battlefield.
4. Shadow Step: Instantly teleport a short distance behind an enemy or into cover, useful for quick escapes or surprise attacks.

Combat & Weapon Skills

5. Close Combat (Dagger Mastery): Proficient with dual-wielding daggers. Includes fast, precise strikes, with higher critical hit chances from behind or in stealth.
6. Throwing Daggers: Range attack option that allows throwing daggers with precision. Upgrades could include poison-tipped or explosive variants.
7. Poison Crafting: Brew deadly poisons and venoms to coat weapons or use as traps. Different poisons could cause effects like paralysis, damage over time, or blindness.

Utility & Sabotage

8. Pickpocketing: Steal small amounts of currency or items from NPCs without being detected. Could scale with skill, allowing higher rewards with greater risks.
9. Lockpicking: Unlock doors, treasure chests, or secure containers. More challenging locks might require higher skill levels or special tools.
10. Disguises: Assume the appearance of an NPC to infiltrate enemy ranks or access restricted areas without arousing suspicion.
11. Trap Setting: Place traps to damage, slow, or immobilize enemies. Disarm or disable enemy traps to gain an advantage in battle.

What are your thoughts on this rogue skillset? Are there any particular abilities you’d like to see added or balanced differently to make the rogue class more engaging in Ashes of Creation?

THIS IS THE SUMMARY OF THE THREADS:

Core Rogue Abilities (Baseline Rogue):
Stealth and Invisibility: Standard stealth ability, allowing the rogue to become invisible to enemies.
Backstab: High burst damage when attacking from behind or while stealthed.
Poison Coating: Coats weapons with poison for a limited time, applying a damage-over-time (DoT) effect.
Disarm Trap: Detect and disarm traps in the environment, protecting the party.
Sap: A single-target incapacitating ability, used to stun or disable an enemy before combat starts.
Evasion Roll: A quick dodge roll to avoid incoming attacks or reposition quickly.
Throwing Knives: A ranged attack that can be augmented into different projectiles (poison bombs, shurikens, etc.).
Cloak of Shadows: A quick stealth ability to evade detection in combat or reset an encounter.
Rogues Luck: A party wide buff that gives luck.
Smokebomb: A skill that helps the rogue to hide during combat - many of you want it work differently.

Rogue Subclasses / Archetypes

Assassin (Rogue/Rogue): Mostly unanimously
Assassinate: Instantly deal massive damage to a vulnerable target from stealth. Critical strike chance is significantly increased.
Death’s Dance: A flurry of slashes that hit multiple enemies around the rogue in rapid succession.
Lethal Poison: A stronger version of poison coating, applying deadly toxins that cause increased DoT or additional effects like paralysis.
Vanish: Instantly re-enter stealth after a successful assassination, allowing for chain kills.
Shadow Strike: A teleport attack where the rogue instantly strikes a target and teleports behind them.

Duelist (Rogue/Fighter): Mostly unanimously
Parry and Riposte: Allows the rogue to block an attack and immediately counter with a quick strike.
Blade Dance: A series of rapid melee attacks that increase in speed and damage with each successful hit.
Feint: Fakes an attack, causing the enemy to lower their guard, allowing the rogue to follow up with a stronger blow.
Swordplay Mastery: Passively increases attack speed and critical strike chance when fighting with dual-wielded weapons.
Quick Step: A short dash that enhances mobility, allowing the rogue to quickly reposition in close combat.

Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank): Mostly unanimously
Shadow Shield: Surrounds the rogue in a protective barrier of shadows, reducing incoming damage for a short period.
Dark Taunt: Draws the attention of enemies by invoking shadowy illusions, forcing them to attack the rogue.
Evasive Defense: A defensive stance that increases dodge and parry chances while reducing damage dealt.
Shadow Cloak: An improved stealth ability that allows the rogue to avoid detection even while being attacked.
Deflecting Shadows: Summons shadowy clones that take hits in the rogue’s place, absorbing a percentage of damage.

Predator (Rogue/Ranger): Mostly unanimously
Ambush: Launches a high-damage attack from stealth, with increased damage at long range.
Trap Mastery: Sets deadly traps that deal damage, debuff enemies, or immobilize them.
Poison Trap: A hidden trap that releases a cloud of poison, damaging all enemies within the area.
Marked for Death: Marks a target, increasing damage dealt to that enemy by the rogue and their allies.
Camouflage: Blends into the environment, increasing stealth duration and reducing the chance of being detected at range.

Nightspell (Rogue/Mage): Mostly unanimously
Ninja Blink: Teleports the rogue a short distance, leaving behind a shadow clone to confuse enemies.
Arcane Poison: Applies magical poisons to weapons, dealing arcane damage over time and potentially silencing enemies.
Shadow Bolt: A ranged shadow-based attack that deals damage and siphons health from the target.
Phantom Step: Teleports behind an enemy and deals an instant strike, followed by increased attack speed.
Illusionary Strike: Strikes enemies with spectral blades, dealing arcane damage and confusing enemies about the rogue’s location.

Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner): People have different ideas
Summon Shadows: Summons multiple shadowy clones to fight alongside the rogue, dealing damage or acting as distractions.
Shadow Overwhelm: The rogue and their shadow clones converge on a single target, dealing massive damage.
Shadow Portal: Opens a small portal allowing the rogue to instantly switch places with one of their shadow clones.
Living Shadows: Enhances shadow clones, allowing them to absorb a portion of incoming damage and deal more powerful attacks.
Shadow Link: Transfers some of the damage taken by the rogue to their summoned shadows.
Shadow pull: instead of having shadowstep, the Shadowlord pulls the enemy infront of him with the enemies back turned, possibly stunning the enemy. Won't work against bosses.

Charlatan (Rogue/Bard): People have different ideas
Illusionary Strike: Creates a false attack, causing the enemy to react to the wrong threat and opening them up for a real strike.
Misdirection: Causes enemies to attack an illusion of the rogue instead of the rogue themselves.
Buff Theft: Steals a beneficial buff from an enemy and grants it to the rogue or their allies.
Confounding Illusions: Casts an illusion that causes enemies to mistake their allies for foes, causing confusion and friendly fire.
Deceptive Performance: Temporarily increases the rogue’s evasion and makes it harder for enemies to detect their true location.

Trickster (Bard/Rogue): People have different ideas
Mirror Image: Creates decoy images of the rogue that can move and attack, confusing enemies about the real rogue’s location.
Illusionary Arrow: Fires an arrow that creates a decoy when it hits, distracting enemies from the real target.
Phantom Blade: Throws a spectral dagger that passes through enemies, dealing damage to all in its path.
Disappearing Act: Temporarily causes all allies within a certain range to vanish from enemy sight, allowing them to reposition.
Illusion Barrage: Fires a series of illusionary projectiles that each appear as a real threat, overwhelming enemies with visual confusion.

Cultist (Rogue/Cleric): Mostly unanimously
Sacrificial Strike: The rogue deals increased damage by sacrificing a portion of their own health.
Dark Invocation: Calls upon a shadowy deity to empower the rogue’s attacks or curse enemies.
Siphon Life: Strikes an enemy with a cursed blade, draining health from the target and healing the rogue.
Blood Offering: The rogue sacrifices health to grant a temporary boost to their damage or defenses.
Cursed Mark: Places a dark curse on an enemy, reducing their attack power and causing damage over time.

Some of you prefer the Shadowlord to be the illusionist and the Charlatan something else. Some of you prefer the Songcaller to be the illusionist and not the Trickster.

Out-of-Combat Utilities (Across All Subclasses):
Trap Disarmament: Detect and disarm traps in the environment.
Lockpicking: Open locked doors, chests, or secure containers.
Pickpocketing: Steal small items or information from NPCs.
Scouting: Use stealth to safely explore dangerous areas or mark enemy positions.
Cloak Allies: Temporarily hide party members, allowing them to bypass enemies or reset encounters.
Shadow Traversal: Use shadows to bypass obstacles or travel through narrow passageways.
Environmental Sabotage: Disable enemy alarms or sabotage environmental elements for strategic advantages.
Secret Passage Discovery: Locate hidden doors or tunnels that offer shortcuts or secret loot.
Misdirection: Confuse enemies or rival parties with false trails or misleading clues.
Poison Crafting: Craft poisons to enhance weapons, traps, or other items for both combat and utility purposes.

Shadow Resource Mechanic
Shadow Points: The rogue starts with 100 Shadow Points. Shadow Points are used to activate stealth abilities. When the rogue runs out of Shadow Points, they cannot use stealth skills until they regain Shadow Points through specific abilities or actions.

Rogue minigames
Rogue utilites would require solving a minigame

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Comments

Tantrum

Podgnil wrote: »

Regarding the evasion of roguess, in many MMOs the chance of evasion implies the fact that rogues become good tanks, which in my opinion is excluded. But there is a simple way to avoid this, a passive skill or a permanent buff that has 3-5 stacks, called something like grace, and gives, for example, a 70% chance of dodging, with a successful dodge, it loses 1 stack and reduces the chance of dodging the next attack. As soon as the rogue takes damage, all stacks are removed. Thus, we will really get an evasive rogue; as a penalty for such a skill, he can receive a reduced bonus from stamina, as a class feature. This will remove aggro from robbers in pvp; not everyone wants to miss 2-3 times before breaking it. But if they focus it, then it’s either smoke/invis and on the slippers, or a corpse.

I really like your idea of a stacking dodge mechanic that decays with each successful evasion. It adds a nice risk-reward balance to the rogue’s gameplay, ensuring they can’t tank indefinitely through dodging but still feel elusive and hard to pin down. The penalty of reduced stamina regeneration is a smart trade-off. It also fits well with the rogue’s identity as a glass cannon—high burst damage but fragile when caught.

What are your thoughts on extending this further by incorporating a resource like shadow or stamina to replenish dodge stacks over time? This would prevent them from feeling invincible but still allow for strategic re-engagement. I also agree that rogues shouldn’t become tanks—this mechanic would keep them focused on hit-and-run tactics. How do you see this working in large-scale PvP?

Chaliux wrote: »

Just make evasion a temporary action skill, lasting only some seconds. So, the tankiness of a rogue can actively be controlled (or countered -> stun rogue from behind if evasion skill is active, for instance).

I can see the appeal of making evasion a temporary action skill to prevent rogues from becoming too tanky. A short-duration buff would ensure that rogues can avoid damage for a limited time without being overpowered. That said, I don’t love the idea of a high-cooldown ability being the primary way rogues dodge. It feels strange for a rogue to suddenly be unable to dodge simply because a cooldown hasn't reset. Tying evasion to a resource like stamina or shadow might feel more natural, giving players the flexibility to decide when and how much to evade, rather than relying on long cooldowns.

What do you think of adding more active decision-making for evasion management through resource consumption?

Lodrig wrote: »

Evasion buffs that consume the Shadow resource seem like a reasonable option. This also has the benifit of making a non-stealth based rogue able to use their resources and makes classes design more flexible.

Note that SOME rogue based classes SHOULD be viable dodge tanks, like Rogue/Tank, they obviusly don't fit as anything but a dodge tanks and should be able to hold out much longer then normal rogues, though less then a true tank. This is why I see them as monk like with things like arrow catching to stop ranged physical attacks as well as melee.

Note that overall you want to use the Shadow resources as a way to make a Rogue DEFENCE decline durring battle, not their OFFENCE. Rogues have always been defined by the ambush combo of stealth followed by burst damage, but if a rogues DPS just drops off after a few attacks then they can't do much total damage and even cease to be a priority for an enemy counter attack after their drop off. But by letting their damage remain high but their defence to drop the Rogue is in a 'push your luck' sitiation, their stealth and initial defence have gotten them in and allowed the first burst of damage to be delt at low risk but now with lower defence their risk escalates. Do they remain in battle to keep dishing out high damage at risk of death, or retreat. If they have a damage drop off their is effectivly no choice, they have to retreat even if the enemy has failed to put up an effective response, so defence decline gives Rogues inherently more intersting gameplay.
And if the Rogue truly gets a Fox-in-Hen-House situation where a bunch of oponents are at their mercy and can't counter attack, then the Rogue can rackup a sweet kill streak which is I think a good reward for them and punishment for the other team for failing to guard the squishy party members.

I completely agree with your idea of using a resource like shadow to manage evasion, which would give rogues more control over their defense while still ensuring they can't be invincible throughout the entire fight. I also like your perspective on certain rogue subclasses, like Rogue/Tank, having a viable dodge-tank playstyle, where their defense declines over time but they still remain dangerous. This adds variety to rogue builds, letting those who want to go full ambush have their fun while others who prefer survivability in longer fights still have options.

As you pointed out, letting a rogue’s defense, not offense, decline over time feels more in line with their core gameplay. It creates that intense “push-your-luck” situation where they can dish out high damage but have to consider their exit strategy once their defense wanes. This keeps the rogue's burst DPS valuable, but makes staying in the fight longer much riskier. I agree with your conclusion—giving rogues the chance to go on a kill streak rewards skilled play without letting them become invincible.

Would you see this working more effectively in solo play or group dynamics? And how would you envision balancing the rogue’s evasion and offense in a long-duration boss fight?

ShivaFang

Podgnil wrote: »

Regarding the evasion of roguess, in many MMOs the chance of evasion implies the fact that rogues become good tanks, which in my opinion is excluded.

Evasion tanks, like the Ninja/Warrior in FF11, ought to be viable with dedication on a Rogue/Tank. The delta from Rogue primary to evasion tank is smaller than the delta between tank primary and evasion tank, which is why this only makes sense on a rogue/tank and not on a tank/rogue. Tank primary is more about high health pools and resisting hits, making them highly enduring. Rogues are about evasion and nimbleness.

Evasion tanks are not viable in every type of fight. Evasion tanks will often be floored by attacks they fail to dodge, due to smaller health pool and lower mitigation. They will probably also be weaker when enemies have lots of small attacks, as they can only dodge so many times. They favour avoiding big single attacks to completely negate them.
Being a tank secondary, they woun't be able to hold agro as long or as often as a primary tank. Thus a rogue/tank will likely be used as an off-tank or situationally for the big hits the primary tank can't sit through.

This is very much what I personally am building towards.

This is why I say - I do not care about stealth mechanics. I really hope there is an augment that will convert the rogue's stealth skill into a short 'blur' evasion effect.

You may claim it's not viable, and that it shouldn't be viable - but the FF11 community said that about the Ninja/Warrior until someone built it and made it work and turned it into a staple option.

ShivaFang

koltovince wrote: »

Eh FFXIV also went this route with the rogue being forced to become a ninja and the aesthetic didn't vibe with people all that well. It depends on how deep you go into the "ninja" because it went from a dark and gritty fighter with stealth and lowblows to a character naruto running, throwing shuriken, front flip jumping, and shadow clones.

Don't get me wrong those can be fun, but not everyone leans into the ninja aesthetic and replacing rogue with a ninja based built would not vibe well with many people.

FFXIV style Ninja is more like the Rogue/Mage. I don't expect the Assassin to have elemental damage type stuff at all.

Tantrum

ShivaFang wrote: »

Podgnil wrote: »

Regarding the evasion of roguess, in many MMOs the chance of evasion implies the fact that rogues become good tanks, which in my opinion is excluded.

Evasion tanks, like the Ninja/Warrior in FF11, ought to be viable with dedication on a Rogue/Tank. The delta from Rogue primary to evasion tank is smaller than the delta between tank primary and evasion tank, which is why this only makes sense on a rogue/tank and not on a tank/rogue. Tank primary is more about high health pools and resisting hits, making them highly enduring. Rogues are about evasion and nimbleness.

Evasion tanks are not viable in every type of fight. Evasion tanks will often be floored by attacks they fail to dodge, due to smaller health pool and lower mitigation. They will probably also be weaker when enemies have lots of small attacks, as they can only dodge so many times. They favour avoiding big single attacks to completely negate them.
Being a tank secondary, they woun't be able to hold agro as long or as often as a primary tank. Thus a rogue/tank will likely be used as an off-tank or situationally for the big hits the primary tank can't sit through.

This is very much what I personally am building towards.

This is why I say - I do not care about stealth mechanics. I really hope there is an augment that will convert the rogue's stealth skill into a short 'blur' evasion effect.

You may claim it's not viable, and that it shouldn't be viable - but the FF11 community said that about the Ninja/Warrior until someone built it and made it work and turned it into a staple option.

While it's great to have an option to build an evasion rogue tank, it's important to remember that this option stems from the core rogue, the one that thrives on stealth and unpredictable tactics. Without that standard rogue—the one that attacks from the shadows, applies poisons across the battlefield, jumps around in a flurry of strikes, and disappears only to reappear on the other side for a devastating backstab—you lose the essence of what makes a rogue so dynamic.

Rogues are all about versatility. Their bag of tricks can keep even the most restless, high-energy players engaged. It’s this wide array of clever tactics that makes them so exciting. Only once you’ve mastered that standard rogue playstyle can you evolve it into something like an evasion tank, where stealth mechanics transform into evasive maneuvers.

So while I see the appeal of a rogue/tank evasion build, don't forget that without the foundational rogue who dances between the shadows, poisons, and misdirection, you wouldn't have the flexibility to even consider turning them into a specialized tank. The strength of the rogue lies in that broad set of tricks, which you can then mold into an evasion-based off-tank if you choose.

Ungohil

Tantrum wrote: »

I can see the appeal of making evasion a temporary action skill to prevent rogues from becoming too tanky. A short-duration buff would ensure that rogues can avoid damage for a limited time without being overpowered. That said, I don’t love the idea of a high-cooldown ability being the primary way rogues dodge. It feels strange for a rogue to suddenly be unable to dodge simply because a cooldown hasn't reset. Tying evasion to a resource like stamina or shadow might feel more natural, giving players the flexibility to decide when and how much to evade, rather than relying on long cooldowns.

What do you think of adding more active decision-making for evasion management through resource consumption?

Sounds fine.

According evasion (with certain duration) as cooldown-skill: True, it's something like the "oh shit button" - usually every class will get something like this to avoid, block, escape from incoming damage.

Additionally to the idea of evasion management through resource consumption I would hope (and guess) that certain armor pieces (or sets) and weapon skills/perks (surely daggers for instance) will support this kind of rogue-gameplay, so the agile, evading "ninja" or - rogue. Also secondary classes will, I'm pretty sure, augment active action skills in a way that it supports the sneaky, evasion gameplay of a (shadow) rogue. Pretty sure that rogue types like assassin (vanish, stealth, evasion), predator (gap closers, evasion), nightspell (evasion, shadowstep/teleport) or of course shadow guardian (high evasion, block/parr), duelist (lots of parry) will have several skills that supports avoiding damage for the rogue, instead of providing self-heal (cultist?) or life-leech (shadow lord) to the rogue class.

ShivaFang

Tantrum wrote: »

While it's great to have an option to build an evasion rogue tank, it's important to remember that this option stems from the core rogue, the one that thrives on stealth and unpredictable tactics. Without that standard rogue—the one that attacks from the shadows, applies poisons across the battlefield, jumps around in a flurry of strikes, and disappears only to reappear on the other side for a devastating backstab—you lose the essence of what makes a rogue so dynamic.

It's important to remeber that the 'core rogue' has to be pretty generic but have ways that can be expanded by their secondaries. Some of those things will be part of the assassin ('pure rogue') kit and might not be available to other rogues. rogue/fighters and rogue/mages ought to have a lot less 'throw poisons and jump around in a flurry of strikes' compared to the assassin.

It's somewhat unfortunate that the developers seem to have decided to give everyone cleric and tank secondaries next May - rather than focusin on the 'pure' classes first. Not that I mind because pretty much every character I intend to play is either/cleric or /tank

Tantrum

ShivaFang wrote: »

It's important to remeber that the 'core rogue' has to be pretty generic but have ways that can be expanded by their secondaries. Some of those things will be part of the assassin ('pure rogue') kit and might not be available to other rogues. rogue/fighters and rogue/mages ought to have a lot less 'throw poisons and jump around in a flurry of strikes' compared to the assassin.

It's somewhat unfortunate that the developers seem to have decided to give everyone cleric and tank secondaries next May - rather than focusin on the 'pure' classes first. Not that I mind because pretty much every character I intend to play is either/cleric or /tank

The thing is, as Steven Sharif said, the second archetype won’t add entirely new skills—it will transform the skills the rogue already has. So, that basic generic rogue will have the whole kit, with the second archetype affecting how those abilities perform. That means all the core abilities like stealth, poisons, mobility, and crowd control will remain, but will be transformed depending on the secondary choice.

Let me take a guess at how these archetypes might play out based on those transformations:

1. Duelist (Rogue/Fighter)
Stealth → Combat Reflexes: Instead of hiding in shadows, the rogue’s stealth ability could transform into a parry mechanic, making the Duelist adept at deflecting blows. The rogue's Backstab might now trigger a riposte when an enemy misses or gets parried.
Poison → Precision Strikes: Instead of a lingering poison debuff, the Duelist might focus on single-target critical strikes, dealing increased damage when hitting weak points, turning DoT effects into one-shot bursts of damage.

2. Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank)
Stealth → Shadow Mantle: Stealth would become more defensive, transforming into a temporary evasion buff, allowing the rogue to dodge attacks while maintaining aggro on enemies. Similar to Vanish, but now it encourages enemies to focus on the rogue.
Poison → Shadow Toxin: The poison could now weaken enemies, reducing their accuracy and strength, helping the rogue mitigate damage. This turns the rogue’s offensive debuff into a more tank-focused survival tool.
Tendon Slash → Funnel Focus: Instead of simply slowing enemies, the Tendon Slash could morph into a tool to force enemies to focus on the rogue, making it essential in maintaining threat.

3. Assassin (Rogue/Rogue)
Stealth → Shadow Infusion: Stealth could get longer or faster, allowing for quicker re-entry into hiding. The resource management would focus on keeping the rogue in and out of stealth more frequently, making this a pure assassination playstyle.
Poison → Fatal Venom: Poison damage might ramp up, applying stronger, faster-acting poisons, which could deal high burst damage after stealth re-engagement. Deathmark could become more lethal and faster, fitting the assassination fantasy.
Tendon Slash → Swift Strike: This would likely become a high-speed movement ability, letting the rogue dash in and out of combat quickly, hitting weak spots and returning to stealth or repositioning.

4. Predator (Rogue/Ranger)
Stealth → Camouflage: Stealth could transform into a stationary camouflage, allowing the rogue to hide in natural environments. Ambush would trigger from afar, focusing more on traps and ranged poisons.
Poison → Toxic Traps: Instead of throwing poisons directly, Throwing Knives might evolve into setting traps, which apply poison when triggered by enemies. This turns your offensive abilities into zone control mechanics.
Tendon Slash → Snaring Trap: Instead of slowing enemies directly, this would place traps that root or snare enemies that approach, giving you more control over the battlefield.

5. Nightspell (Rogue/Mage)
Stealth → Shadow Phasing: Stealth could transform into phasing in and out of reality. Instead of simply hiding, the rogue might teleport short distances using Shadow Step and leave behind afterimages.
Poison → Arcane Poison: Instead of the traditional poison effect, the rogue’s abilities might take on arcane damage, applying magical debuffs that weaken resistances or deal elemental damage over time.
Tendon Slash → Void Slash: This could become an arcane-infused strike, disorienting enemies with magical energy instead of physical effects, emphasizing ninjutsu-like mobility across the battlefield.

6. Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner)
Stealth → Clone Mastery: Stealth transforms into clone creation, allowing the rogue to summon decoys that confuse enemies. Vanish might now summon several clones that mislead attackers.
Poison → Shadow Poison: Instead of single-target poisons, this ability might apply poison to multiple clones, who spread it by attacking enemies. This turns your DoT into a multi-target debuff, multiplying its effects.
Tendon Slash → Clone Strike: Instead of hitting the target directly, Tendon Slash could involve several clones attacking simultaneously, slowing the target with sheer numbers.

7. Cultist (Rogue/Cleric)
Stealth → Dark Communion: Stealth might now become a ritual where the rogue gains temporary invulnerability or siphons health from enemies while remaining unseen. It could be tied to sacrificing health for powerful buffs or heals.
Poison → Blood Poison: Instead of traditional poison, Blood Poison could transfer damage dealt to the rogue into healing or curses that reduce enemy healing. Venomous Strike could evolve into a self-sacrifice mechanic.
Tendon Slash → Curse Strike: Instead of slowing the enemy, the rogue might apply a curse that drains life or mana from the target, fitting with the dark ritualistic theme.

8. Charlatan (Rogue/Bard)
Stealth → Illusionary Veil: Stealth would focus on creating illusions, allowing the rogue to misdirect enemies. Instead of Vanish, the rogue might leave behind a fake image, misleading foes while attacking from a different angle.
Poison → Illusionary Poison: The rogue’s poison abilities could become debilitating illusions. Instead of physical damage, Throw Poison might now hallucinate enemies, reducing their accuracy or causing them to misjudge their surroundings.
Tendon Slash → Phantom Strike: Instead of a physical slow, Phantom Strike could apply an illusory slow, causing enemies to think they’re hindered while in reality, they're attacking illusions or misjudging distances.

See how all rogue archetypes share the same core abilities, but each secondary archetype transforms them to match a different playstyle. Whether you want to focus on illusion, evasion, or magic, these transformations will allow the rogue to adapt while keeping that core agility, stealth, and versatility.

ShivaFang

Tantrum wrote: »

The thing is, as Steven Sharif said, the second archetype won’t add entirely new skills—it will transform the skills the rogue already has. So, that basic generic rogue will have the whole kit, with the second archetype affecting how those abilities perform. That means all the core abilities like stealth, poisons, mobility, and crowd control will remain, but will be transformed depending on the secondary choice.

correct on the first point, incorrect on the second. The question is - how much change can we expect from augments. We can look at Last Epoch to see that skills can change very much while keeping within the same core theme.
Taking a look at the wiki pages for Necromancer and Warlock gives us an idea that the skills can change dramatically.
Thus, the generic rogue won't need a poison throw. Maybe it has a knife toss that could be change to a shuriken or a poison bomb depending on augments.

Your examples are good. Just remember that the current intention is for each secondary archetype to have 4 Augments, so there will be more than one way to spec each skill.

Your example of 'arcane poison' illustrates this. We know mages have blink, lightning, fire, and ice as augments. I hope that blink gets replaced for a more generic 'arcane' to do what you have there, otherwise your hypothetical poison skill would be more like an elemental bomb that inflicts elemental status rather than poison. I'm not sure how 'blink' would work on such a skill except maybe to negate the throw distance and make it appear right at the enemy's feet.

Tantrum

ShivaFang wrote: »

correct on the first point, incorrect on the second. The question is - how much change can we expect from augments. We can look at Last Epoch to see that skills can change very much while keeping within the same core theme.
Taking a look at the wiki pages for Necromancer and Warlock gives us an idea that the skills can change dramatically.
Thus, the generic rogue won't need a poison throw. Maybe it has a knife toss that could be change to a shuriken or a poison bomb depending on augments.

Your examples are good. Just remember that the current intention is for each secondary archetype to have 4 Augments, so there will be more than one way to spec each skill.

Your example of 'arcane poison' illustrates this. We know mages have blink, lightning, fire, and ice as augments. I hope that blink gets replaced for a more generic 'arcane' to do what you have there, otherwise your hypothetical poison skill would be more like an elemental bomb that inflicts elemental status rather than poison. I'm not sure how 'blink' would work on such a skill except maybe to negate the throw distance and make it appear right at the enemy's feet.

Could you clarify what you mean? I’m not sure I understand why you say I’m wrong. From my perspective, it seems like we’re on the same page, with our only difference being where we draw the line for the basic rogue’s skill set. Could you explain further?

Lodrig

Returning to the topic of Shadow Stealth and Dodge. I see the abilities working like so.

Shadow: Starts being generated after not dealing direct damage or reciving any damage for 10 seconds. Regenerates twice as fast when standing still. Starts at 1 shadow per second, each additinal 10 seconds the rate of generation incresses by 1 per second up to a maximum of 3 per second.

Stealth : Spend 20 Shadow to become invisible, ends upon dealing or reciving any damage or begining a gathering act or entering or exiting node or safezone all of which impose a 5 second cooldown before stealth can be reactivated. While stealthed moving faster then crouch walk will consume shadow at 1 per meter moved. All enchanced Movement abilties consume Shadow while in stealth, but do not require shadow to activate, any act which woiuld consume shadow when shadow is depleted ends stealth.

Blurr : Spend 8 Shadow to create to an after image of the Rogue a fraction of a second behind them, can stack up to 5 Blurr immages which last 1 minute, enemy attacks which would hit you have a chance to hit an image instead and dispell it.

These two abilities are the main consumers of shadow and are independent you can have Blur images while in stealth essentially ready, or create images when out of stealth replacing losses as they happen in a 'ablative dodge' kind of manor.

Consuming shadow with regular walking in stealth is done to prevent easy always stealthed over world travel and particularly stealthed gathering as this would provide an overly easy way to gather without risk of attack. A Rogue could employ stealth to escape from such attacks but it would need to be watchful and reactive due to the no stealth cooldown when gathering.

Movement abilities consuming shadow while stealthed to create a trade off, a Rogue can burnthrough their Shadow faster to move faster and their movement abilities are never blocked by running out of shadow, but if used too much they will end stealth. It is possible to regain shadow while stealth but it requires you to get out of combat and the standing still bonus helps to make the regeneration faster then if your fleeing while stealthed. Walking speeds are generally greater then 3 meters per second so the stealth regeneration is completly overwhelmed by a it but you can go a good distance in a walk before the stealth breaks because the consumption just exceeds the generation and your losing Shadow at about 1 point per second.

willsummon

My list. Indefinite stealth that can be turned and off, for Rogue and classes that have the main archetype be Rogue.

The four main branches for the Rogue being, daggers with quick (high crit) attacks.

Other melee weapons with bleed effects (one hand weapons, but the Rogue/Fighter Dualist and Rogue/Tank Shadow Guardian using two-hand weapon, and the Shadow Guardian using one hand and shield).

Various poisons.

Utility, from improvement in stealth including movement speed, shadowstep (teleport behind target), drop from combat stealth ability, to treasure hunting, to tracking npcs and players.

Lodrig

@Tantrum I like a lot of what you have here for Rogue class concepts, I'll comment mainly on where they differ from my own concepts and why.

Tantrum wrote: »

1. Duelist (Rogue/Fighter)
Stealth → Combat Reflexes: Instead of hiding in shadows, the rogue’s stealth ability could transform into a parry mechanic, making the Duelist adept at deflecting blows. The rogue's Backstab might now trigger a riposte when an enemy misses or gets parried.
Poison → Precision Strikes: Instead of a lingering poison debuff, the Duelist might focus on single-target critical strikes, dealing increased damage when hitting weak points, turning DoT effects into one-shot bursts of damage.

I think we are imagining a broadly similar commitment to the concept of a 'Duel' here, single target melee engagment with strong debuffs being applied to the oponent to give the Rogue the advantage. If stealth is going to be fully removed I would expect the ability to be trasfmored into a strong gapcloser which gives the rogue CC immunity from the target so it can not escape. So rather then sneaking in they LUNGE at the target and stick to it like glue. Think something like Fiora from LoL. I don't particularly want to see action-combat timed perry effects though. I feel that fits better on a true Fighter class like Weapon Master, where their is less issue with them using such an ability to sustain combat for a long time, as I said earlier Rogue defence capacity should fade so they face incressing risk the longer they stay in the fight.

Tantrum wrote: »

2. Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank)
Stealth → Shadow Mantle: Stealth would become more defensive, transforming into a temporary evasion buff, allowing the rogue to dodge attacks while maintaining aggro on enemies. Similar to Vanish, but now it encourages enemies to focus on the rogue.
Poison → Shadow Toxin: The poison could now weaken enemies, reducing their accuracy and strength, helping the rogue mitigate damage. This turns the rogue’s offensive debuff into a more tank-focused survival tool.
Tendon Slash → Funnel Focus: Instead of simply slowing enemies, the Tendon Slash could morph into a tool to force enemies to focus on the rogue, making it essential in maintaining threat.

Again if stealth is lost a strong substitute needs to be provided, in this case I think the dodge buff needs to be long not short so the Shadow Guardian can sustain themselves for longer then any other type of Rogue. I could see this being a toggle state rather then a timed effect, the amount of shadow they have directly translating to dodge chance bonus to provide synergy with the other 'ablative' dodge defences. I would even be willing to put a damage reduction on the modified ability to really cement the defensive nature of the class, while also providing this class the option to drop the dodge for full damage. I like the enemy attack debuff on poison, as it means they can be indirectly protecting allies, but think that movement buffs should be retained as CC is a core Tank aspect. I'm not convinced this class needs threat generation or taunt like mechanics though.

Tantrum wrote: »

3. Assassin (Rogue/Rogue)
Stealth → Shadow Infusion: Stealth could get longer or faster, allowing for quicker re-entry into hiding. The resource management would focus on keeping the rogue in and out of stealth more frequently, making this a pure assassination playstyle.
Poison → Fatal Venom: Poison damage might ramp up, applying stronger, faster-acting poisons, which could deal high burst damage after stealth re-engagement. Deathmark could become more lethal and faster, fitting the assassination fantasy.
Tendon Slash → Swift Strike: This would likely become a high-speed movement ability, letting the rogue dash in and out of combat quickly, hitting weak spots and returning to stealth or repositioning.

Unless the basic rogue alrady has such an ability, I think this is THE class where a simple "Your Attack that breaks your stealth dose doble damage" would fit perfectly without over complicating things. I tend to think of Assasins as defined by higher burst damage vs other Rogues rather then higher stealth. I like the faster acting poison though, maybe the total damage is the same but being more compressed in time makes it harder to counter with healing. Also I assume the Swift Stike speed boost is a bonus ontop of slowing the oponent, I feel an assasin should retain a ham-string type ability as it's often a key part of a rogues escape kit. Overall the main question on this class is how much of the 'cool' stuff is just in the basic rogue kit and how much is reserved for the Assasin.

Tantrum wrote: »

4. Predator (Rogue/Ranger)
Stealth → Camouflage: Stealth could transform into a stationary camouflage, allowing the rogue to hide in natural environments. Ambush would trigger from afar, focusing more on traps and ranged poisons.
Poison → Toxic Traps: Instead of throwing poisons directly, Throwing Knives might evolve into setting traps, which apply poison when triggered by enemies. This turns your offensive abilities into zone control mechanics.
Tendon Slash → Snaring Trap: Instead of slowing enemies directly, this would place traps that root or snare enemies that approach, giving you more control over the battlefield.

I envision this class as a Sniper. Their key change to Stealth is that it isn't broken by a ranged attack delivered at greater then a certain range and under a certain rate of fire, probably done by a cooldown on the modified stealth ability which sets a buff which is consumed to no do the normal stealth breaking. As I don't think Ranger camoflage would allow this I don't feel the need to swap to that system as it is actually weaker with a camoflaged target being revealed if someone is close enough. I like the Trap integration though I feel that a ranged snare 'hamstring shot' or some kind is needed. Also infared vission and a laser pointer with a triangle of 3 red dots are a must

Tantrum wrote: »

5. Nightspell (Rogue/Mage)
Stealth → Shadow Phasing: Stealth could transform into phasing in and out of reality. Instead of simply hiding, the rogue might teleport short distances using Shadow Step and leave behind afterimages.
Poison → Arcane Poison: Instead of the traditional poison effect, the rogue’s abilities might take on arcane damage, applying magical debuffs that weaken resistances or deal elemental damage over time.
Tendon Slash → Void Slash: This could become an arcane-infused strike, disorienting enemies with magical energy instead of physical effects, emphasizing ninjutsu-like mobility across the battlefield.

I'm all for use of teleports, likely as a replacement for dash type abilities, but I think after images step on the gameplay of some of the following Rogue types a bit. Once in contact with the enemy I see the Nightspell as generally able to apply debuffs in an AoE centered on themselves rather then just a single target and thus express some of that mage archetype. The debuffs I imagine are more crippling then damaging but still mage themed, things like silence, or mana drain and that they are excellent mage killers in a 'takes one to kill one' kinds of sense. Don't particularly feel any Ninja vibes are needed either.

Tantrum wrote: »

6. Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner)
Stealth → Clone Mastery: Stealth transforms into clone creation, allowing the rogue to summon decoys that confuse enemies. Vanish might now summon several clones that mislead attackers.
Poison → Shadow Poison: Instead of single-target poisons, this ability might apply poison to multiple clones, who spread it by attacking enemies. This turns your DoT into a multi-target debuff, multiplying its effects.
Tendon Slash → Clone Strike: Instead of hitting the target directly, Tendon Slash could involve several clones attacking simultaneously, slowing the target with sheer numbers.

This is indeed the class where the Shadow clone Jitsu belongs. Ideally the Shadow Lord can generate several clones and the 'swap bodies' between the clones instantly and a clone can can be comanded to keep move towards and target an oponent for attack which it keeps doing after swapping out, thus acting in a plausable fashion rather then just sitting still (that works in LoL with Wu Kong but don't think its gonna trick anyone long enough here). Depending on how effective this is the shadow clones could completly replace stealth but I think thats unlikely, as I do not think the clones should do any damage even indirectly, but creating the clones should consume shadow (and a chunk of wood). I think CC applied by clones IS a good idea though, but should probably require the clones to be expended to do it.

Tantrum wrote: »

7. Cultist (Rogue/Cleric)
Stealth → Dark Communion: Stealth might now become a ritual where the rogue gains temporary invulnerability or siphons health from enemies while remaining unseen. It could be tied to sacrificing health for powerful buffs or heals.
Poison → Blood Poison: Instead of traditional poison, Blood Poison could transfer damage dealt to the rogue into healing or curses that reduce enemy healing. Venomous Strike could evolve into a self-sacrifice mechanic.
Tendon Slash → Curse Strike: Instead of slowing the enemy, the rogue might apply a curse that drains life or mana from the target, fitting with the dark ritualistic theme.

My thoughts were along the lines that a secondary cleric needs to fufill some of a groups cleric needs, but should not be able to act as a sustainment cleric. So the idea of 'dark rituals' done while in stealth before combat that can provide an advantage in combat also occoured to me. The key difference is that I think they need to be able to apply it to other party members and I focused on simple temporary health which is lost first, the cultist can not produce any 'true' healing, just this temporary health or maybe a lifesteal ability. This keeps the cultist from ever replacing a real Cleric while also fitting the 'burst' and fade nature of Rogue attacks. I had not thought much beyond that though and like the strong cult themed abilities which would be used in combat, I think thats the time when health sacrifices for power make the most sense. Also all cultists must carry thouse wavy daggers.

Tantrum wrote: »

8. Charlatan (Rogue/Bard)
Stealth → Illusionary Veil: Stealth would focus on creating illusions, allowing the rogue to misdirect enemies. Instead of Vanish, the rogue might leave behind a fake image, misleading foes while attacking from a different angle.
Poison → Illusionary Poison: The rogue’s poison abilities could become debilitating illusions. Instead of physical damage, Throw Poison might now hallucinate enemies, reducing their accuracy or causing them to misjudge their surroundings.
Tendon Slash → Phantom Strike: Instead of a physical slow, Phantom Strike could apply an illusory slow, causing enemies to think they’re hindered while in reality, they're attacking illusions or misjudging distances.

I don't like the use of illusions here. First it feels redundant with the Shadow Lord AND it steps on the design space of a Bard/Summoner which I think is the ideal place for that classic illusion generating Bard fantasy. For this class I would retain mostly normal stealth abilities but heavily modify what they do after attacking and de-stealthing. Instead the Charlatan STEALS buffs off any victim they attack and starts to provide that buff to their allies instead. Thus the simultaniously do the classic rogue debuffing and the bard buffing job at the same time. I do think some of the illusion/misdirection themed debuffs of yours have potential but look hard to implement. Classics like 'all players look like enemies' and 'all health bars disapear' are probably simpler, but such effects are often hated by other players. Also this class will need a mustache twirl ability.

ShivaFang

Lodrig's view largely matches my own. The main thing missed is that rogue/mage (like all /mage) will be more focused on elemental damage rather than physical.
I'm not sure if 'blink' will be changed to be more generic arcane or not, but for sure we'll have fire, lightning or ice damage. Ice will likely be more crowd control than damage, t hough.

Mage is the one archetype whose augments we understand the best.

willsummon

I imagine the Shadow Lord class to be more like "The Darkness" from Top Cow comics.

With shadow creatures attached to the class, that can strike out at enemies.

Lodrig

ShivaFang wrote: »

Lodrig's view largely matches my own. The main thing missed is that rogue/mage (like all /mage) will be more focused on elemental damage rather than physical.
I'm not sure if 'blink' will be changed to be more generic arcane or not, but for sure we'll have fire, lightning or ice damage. Ice will likely be more crowd control than damage, t hough.

Mage is the one archetype whose augments we understand the best.

I've always doubted thouse mage augments, they struck me as things Steven just said off the top of his head because they are VERY bad concepts to just have 3 elementa augment schools, they barely work for modifying damage dealing abilities of other archetypes, and a a complete flop for everything else including augmenting the mage itself. If Steven's design team is work even half of what he probably pays them they can do better then that. So while I don't doubt that a Rogue/Mage will do some elemental damage, I think it's likely to be only a modest aspect of their kit.

Tantrum

Lodrig wrote: »

I don't like the use of illusions here. First it feels redundant with the Shadow Lord AND it steps on the design space of a Bard/Summoner which I think is the ideal place for that classic illusion generating Bard fantasy. For this class I would retain mostly normal stealth abilities but heavily modify what they do after attacking and de-stealthing. Instead the Charlatan STEALS buffs off any victim they attack and starts to provide that buff to their allies instead. Thus the simultaniously do the classic rogue debuffing and the bard buffing job at the same time. I do think some of the illusion/misdirection themed debuffs of yours have potential but look hard to implement. Classics like 'all players look like enemies' and 'all health bars disapear' are probably simpler, but such effects are often hated by other players. Also this class will need a mustache twirl ability.

I see where you're coming from, but I view the Shadow Lord and Charlatan as distinct in their thematic execution. In my mind, the Shadow Lord doesn't deal with illusions at all—he manipulates real shadows, conjuring tangible copies that act on his will. These aren't tricks of the mind but real entities, creating confusion simply through sheer numbers and misdirection with actual clones, not illusions.

The Charlatan, as the name suggests, is the master of deceit and trickery, which is why illusions fit him. He's not about brute force or tangible shadows but psychological manipulation. I do really like your idea of him stealing buffs—it fits his trickster persona. He can not only deceive but turn the enemy's strength against them. That said, both classes could co-exist without stepping on each other's toes. The Charlatan could focus on illusions and debuffs, while the Shadow Lord brings real threats through shadows.

In my vision, the Songcaller (Bard/Summoner) wouldn't rely on illusions either but would instead create song totems that play melodies independently, enhancing allies or debuffing enemies through their musical magic. This keeps them distinct from illusionists.

The Charlatan, being a martial class, would use close-combat illusions to deceive and outmaneuver opponents, creating fake openings or disorienting foes in melee range. Meanwhile, the Trickster (Bard/Rogue) would represent the typical long-range illusionist, using ranged deception and misdirection from a distance.

The two—Charlatan and Trickster—would both have illusion-based abilities but with very different focuses: close combat for the Charlatan and long-range trickery for the Trickster. This way, their illusion spells wouldn't overlap but complement each other, offering distinct styles of play.

xVenngeance

I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
-A party luck buff
take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.

willsummon

xVenngeance wrote: »

I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
-A party luck buff
take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.

I agree. Though, a party luck buff sounds like something the Charlatan would have, instead of an primary Rogue Archetype ability.

Tantrum

xVenngeance wrote: »

I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
-A party luck buff
take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.

When you read my list, you can see that the rogue is far from just being stealthy and stabby. The archetypes I outlined give them a wide range of utility, from defensive tank-like roles to summoning and even manipulating illusions.

That said, I really like your idea about adding a luck mechanic! It could offer rogues an entirely new layer of strategic importance. How about this: instead of just a flat luck buff, we introduce a PvP mechanic where a rogue’s luck actively cancels out the enemies' luck? So, in battles, whichever side has more rogues gains an advantage, stacking luck in their favor. In PvE, this could still increase crit or dodge chances like you mentioned, but in PvP, it adds an interesting competitive element where rogues influence the outcome beyond just their damage.

Nightmarelol

Gotta have Smokebomb (from WoW). 100% this ability (even with a 3m CD) being able to take control when to set up a kill is literally what Rogue is all about. I’ll be very surprised/disappointed if it’s not a spell for rogues as this move is what makes a Rogue class really feel like a Rogue (You Assassinating a kill target for PvP and PvE on your terms). 😶‍🌫️

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