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Rogue Wishlist

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Comments

  • willsummonwillsummon Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 6
    My list. Indefinite stealth that can be turned and off, for Rogue and classes that have the main archetype be Rogue.

    The four main branches for the Rogue being, daggers with quick (high crit) attacks.

    Other melee weapons with bleed effects (one hand weapons, but the Rogue/Fighter Dualist and Rogue/Tank Shadow Guardian using two-hand weapon, and the Shadow Guardian using one hand and shield).

    Various poisons.

    Utility, from improvement in stealth including movement speed, shadowstep (teleport behind target), drop from combat stealth ability, to treasure hunting, to tracking npcs and players.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited October 6
    @Tantrum I like a lot of what you have here for Rogue class concepts, I'll comment mainly on where they differ from my own concepts and why.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    1. Duelist (Rogue/Fighter)
    Stealth → Combat Reflexes: Instead of hiding in shadows, the rogue’s stealth ability could transform into a parry mechanic, making the Duelist adept at deflecting blows. The rogue's Backstab might now trigger a riposte when an enemy misses or gets parried.
    Poison → Precision Strikes: Instead of a lingering poison debuff, the Duelist might focus on single-target critical strikes, dealing increased damage when hitting weak points, turning DoT effects into one-shot bursts of damage.

    I think we are imagining a broadly similar commitment to the concept of a 'Duel' here, single target melee engagment with strong debuffs being applied to the oponent to give the Rogue the advantage. If stealth is going to be fully removed I would expect the ability to be trasfmored into a strong gapcloser which gives the rogue CC immunity from the target so it can not escape. So rather then sneaking in they LUNGE at the target and stick to it like glue. Think something like Fiora from LoL. I don't particularly want to see action-combat timed perry effects though. I feel that fits better on a true Fighter class like Weapon Master, where their is less issue with them using such an ability to sustain combat for a long time, as I said earlier Rogue defence capacity should fade so they face incressing risk the longer they stay in the fight.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    2. Shadow Guardian (Rogue/Tank)
    Stealth → Shadow Mantle: Stealth would become more defensive, transforming into a temporary evasion buff, allowing the rogue to dodge attacks while maintaining aggro on enemies. Similar to Vanish, but now it encourages enemies to focus on the rogue.
    Poison → Shadow Toxin: The poison could now weaken enemies, reducing their accuracy and strength, helping the rogue mitigate damage. This turns the rogue’s offensive debuff into a more tank-focused survival tool.
    Tendon Slash → Funnel Focus: Instead of simply slowing enemies, the Tendon Slash could morph into a tool to force enemies to focus on the rogue, making it essential in maintaining threat.

    Again if stealth is lost a strong substitute needs to be provided, in this case I think the dodge buff needs to be long not short so the Shadow Guardian can sustain themselves for longer then any other type of Rogue. I could see this being a toggle state rather then a timed effect, the amount of shadow they have directly translating to dodge chance bonus to provide synergy with the other 'ablative' dodge defences. I would even be willing to put a damage reduction on the modified ability to really cement the defensive nature of the class, while also providing this class the option to drop the dodge for full damage. I like the enemy attack debuff on poison, as it means they can be indirectly protecting allies, but think that movement buffs should be retained as CC is a core Tank aspect. I'm not convinced this class needs threat generation or taunt like mechanics though.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    3. Assassin (Rogue/Rogue)
    Stealth → Shadow Infusion: Stealth could get longer or faster, allowing for quicker re-entry into hiding. The resource management would focus on keeping the rogue in and out of stealth more frequently, making this a pure assassination playstyle.
    Poison → Fatal Venom: Poison damage might ramp up, applying stronger, faster-acting poisons, which could deal high burst damage after stealth re-engagement. Deathmark could become more lethal and faster, fitting the assassination fantasy.
    Tendon Slash → Swift Strike: This would likely become a high-speed movement ability, letting the rogue dash in and out of combat quickly, hitting weak spots and returning to stealth or repositioning.

    Unless the basic rogue alrady has such an ability, I think this is THE class where a simple "Your Attack that breaks your stealth dose doble damage" would fit perfectly without over complicating things. I tend to think of Assasins as defined by higher burst damage vs other Rogues rather then higher stealth. I like the faster acting poison though, maybe the total damage is the same but being more compressed in time makes it harder to counter with healing. Also I assume the Swift Stike speed boost is a bonus ontop of slowing the oponent, I feel an assasin should retain a ham-string type ability as it's often a key part of a rogues escape kit. Overall the main question on this class is how much of the 'cool' stuff is just in the basic rogue kit and how much is reserved for the Assasin.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    4. Predator (Rogue/Ranger)
    Stealth → Camouflage: Stealth could transform into a stationary camouflage, allowing the rogue to hide in natural environments. Ambush would trigger from afar, focusing more on traps and ranged poisons.
    Poison → Toxic Traps: Instead of throwing poisons directly, Throwing Knives might evolve into setting traps, which apply poison when triggered by enemies. This turns your offensive abilities into zone control mechanics.
    Tendon Slash → Snaring Trap: Instead of slowing enemies directly, this would place traps that root or snare enemies that approach, giving you more control over the battlefield.

    I envision this class as a Sniper. Their key change to Stealth is that it isn't broken by a ranged attack delivered at greater then a certain range and under a certain rate of fire, probably done by a cooldown on the modified stealth ability which sets a buff which is consumed to no do the normal stealth breaking. As I don't think Ranger camoflage would allow this I don't feel the need to swap to that system as it is actually weaker with a camoflaged target being revealed if someone is close enough. I like the Trap integration though I feel that a ranged snare 'hamstring shot' or some kind is needed. Also infared vission and a laser pointer with a triangle of 3 red dots are a must :)
    Tantrum wrote: »
    5. Nightspell (Rogue/Mage)
    Stealth → Shadow Phasing: Stealth could transform into phasing in and out of reality. Instead of simply hiding, the rogue might teleport short distances using Shadow Step and leave behind afterimages.
    Poison → Arcane Poison: Instead of the traditional poison effect, the rogue’s abilities might take on arcane damage, applying magical debuffs that weaken resistances or deal elemental damage over time.
    Tendon Slash → Void Slash: This could become an arcane-infused strike, disorienting enemies with magical energy instead of physical effects, emphasizing ninjutsu-like mobility across the battlefield.

    I'm all for use of teleports, likely as a replacement for dash type abilities, but I think after images step on the gameplay of some of the following Rogue types a bit. Once in contact with the enemy I see the Nightspell as generally able to apply debuffs in an AoE centered on themselves rather then just a single target and thus express some of that mage archetype. The debuffs I imagine are more crippling then damaging but still mage themed, things like silence, or mana drain and that they are excellent mage killers in a 'takes one to kill one' kinds of sense. Don't particularly feel any Ninja vibes are needed either.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    6. Shadow Lord (Rogue/Summoner)
    Stealth → Clone Mastery: Stealth transforms into clone creation, allowing the rogue to summon decoys that confuse enemies. Vanish might now summon several clones that mislead attackers.
    Poison → Shadow Poison: Instead of single-target poisons, this ability might apply poison to multiple clones, who spread it by attacking enemies. This turns your DoT into a multi-target debuff, multiplying its effects.
    Tendon Slash → Clone Strike: Instead of hitting the target directly, Tendon Slash could involve several clones attacking simultaneously, slowing the target with sheer numbers.

    This is indeed the class where the Shadow clone Jitsu belongs. Ideally the Shadow Lord can generate several clones and the 'swap bodies' between the clones instantly and a clone can can be comanded to keep move towards and target an oponent for attack which it keeps doing after swapping out, thus acting in a plausable fashion rather then just sitting still (that works in LoL with Wu Kong but don't think its gonna trick anyone long enough here). Depending on how effective this is the shadow clones could completly replace stealth but I think thats unlikely, as I do not think the clones should do any damage even indirectly, but creating the clones should consume shadow (and a chunk of wood). I think CC applied by clones IS a good idea though, but should probably require the clones to be expended to do it.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    7. Cultist (Rogue/Cleric)
    Stealth → Dark Communion: Stealth might now become a ritual where the rogue gains temporary invulnerability or siphons health from enemies while remaining unseen. It could be tied to sacrificing health for powerful buffs or heals.
    Poison → Blood Poison: Instead of traditional poison, Blood Poison could transfer damage dealt to the rogue into healing or curses that reduce enemy healing. Venomous Strike could evolve into a self-sacrifice mechanic.
    Tendon Slash → Curse Strike: Instead of slowing the enemy, the rogue might apply a curse that drains life or mana from the target, fitting with the dark ritualistic theme.

    My thoughts were along the lines that a secondary cleric needs to fufill some of a groups cleric needs, but should not be able to act as a sustainment cleric. So the idea of 'dark rituals' done while in stealth before combat that can provide an advantage in combat also occoured to me. The key difference is that I think they need to be able to apply it to other party members and I focused on simple temporary health which is lost first, the cultist can not produce any 'true' healing, just this temporary health or maybe a lifesteal ability. This keeps the cultist from ever replacing a real Cleric while also fitting the 'burst' and fade nature of Rogue attacks. I had not thought much beyond that though and like the strong cult themed abilities which would be used in combat, I think thats the time when health sacrifices for power make the most sense. Also all cultists must carry thouse wavy daggers.
    Tantrum wrote: »
    8. Charlatan (Rogue/Bard)
    Stealth → Illusionary Veil: Stealth would focus on creating illusions, allowing the rogue to misdirect enemies. Instead of Vanish, the rogue might leave behind a fake image, misleading foes while attacking from a different angle.
    Poison → Illusionary Poison: The rogue’s poison abilities could become debilitating illusions. Instead of physical damage, Throw Poison might now hallucinate enemies, reducing their accuracy or causing them to misjudge their surroundings.
    Tendon Slash → Phantom Strike: Instead of a physical slow, Phantom Strike could apply an illusory slow, causing enemies to think they’re hindered while in reality, they're attacking illusions or misjudging distances.

    I don't like the use of illusions here. First it feels redundant with the Shadow Lord AND it steps on the design space of a Bard/Summoner which I think is the ideal place for that classic illusion generating Bard fantasy. For this class I would retain mostly normal stealth abilities but heavily modify what they do after attacking and de-stealthing. Instead the Charlatan STEALS buffs off any victim they attack and starts to provide that buff to their allies instead. Thus the simultaniously do the classic rogue debuffing and the bard buffing job at the same time. I do think some of the illusion/misdirection themed debuffs of yours have potential but look hard to implement. Classics like 'all players look like enemies' and 'all health bars disapear' are probably simpler, but such effects are often hated by other players. Also this class will need a mustache twirl ability.

  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Lodrig's view largely matches my own. The main thing missed is that rogue/mage (like all /mage) will be more focused on elemental damage rather than physical.
    I'm not sure if 'blink' will be changed to be more generic arcane or not, but for sure we'll have fire, lightning or ice damage. Ice will likely be more crowd control than damage, t hough.

    Mage is the one archetype whose augments we understand the best.
  • willsummonwillsummon Member, Alpha Two
    I imagine the Shadow Lord class to be more like "The Darkness" from Top Cow comics.

    With shadow creatures attached to the class, that can strike out at enemies.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Lodrig's view largely matches my own. The main thing missed is that rogue/mage (like all /mage) will be more focused on elemental damage rather than physical.
    I'm not sure if 'blink' will be changed to be more generic arcane or not, but for sure we'll have fire, lightning or ice damage. Ice will likely be more crowd control than damage, t hough.

    Mage is the one archetype whose augments we understand the best.

    I've always doubted thouse mage augments, they struck me as things Steven just said off the top of his head because they are VERY bad concepts to just have 3 elementa augment schools, they barely work for modifying damage dealing abilities of other archetypes, and a a complete flop for everything else including augmenting the mage itself. If Steven's design team is work even half of what he probably pays them they can do better then that. So while I don't doubt that a Rogue/Mage will do some elemental damage, I think it's likely to be only a modest aspect of their kit.
  • Lodrig wrote: »

    I don't like the use of illusions here. First it feels redundant with the Shadow Lord AND it steps on the design space of a Bard/Summoner which I think is the ideal place for that classic illusion generating Bard fantasy. For this class I would retain mostly normal stealth abilities but heavily modify what they do after attacking and de-stealthing. Instead the Charlatan STEALS buffs off any victim they attack and starts to provide that buff to their allies instead. Thus the simultaniously do the classic rogue debuffing and the bard buffing job at the same time. I do think some of the illusion/misdirection themed debuffs of yours have potential but look hard to implement. Classics like 'all players look like enemies' and 'all health bars disapear' are probably simpler, but such effects are often hated by other players. Also this class will need a mustache twirl ability.

    I see where you're coming from, but I view the Shadow Lord and Charlatan as distinct in their thematic execution. In my mind, the Shadow Lord doesn't deal with illusions at all—he manipulates real shadows, conjuring tangible copies that act on his will. These aren't tricks of the mind but real entities, creating confusion simply through sheer numbers and misdirection with actual clones, not illusions.

    The Charlatan, as the name suggests, is the master of deceit and trickery, which is why illusions fit him. He's not about brute force or tangible shadows but psychological manipulation. I do really like your idea of him stealing buffs—it fits his trickster persona. He can not only deceive but turn the enemy's strength against them. That said, both classes could co-exist without stepping on each other's toes. The Charlatan could focus on illusions and debuffs, while the Shadow Lord brings real threats through shadows.

    In my vision, the Songcaller (Bard/Summoner) wouldn't rely on illusions either but would instead create song totems that play melodies independently, enhancing allies or debuffing enemies through their musical magic. This keeps them distinct from illusionists.

    The Charlatan, being a martial class, would use close-combat illusions to deceive and outmaneuver opponents, creating fake openings or disorienting foes in melee range. Meanwhile, the Trickster (Bard/Rogue) would represent the typical long-range illusionist, using ranged deception and misdirection from a distance.

    The two—Charlatan and Trickster—would both have illusion-based abilities but with very different focuses: close combat for the Charlatan and long-range trickery for the Trickster. This way, their illusion spells wouldn't overlap but complement each other, offering distinct styles of play.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
  • xVenngeancexVenngeance Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
    -A party luck buff
    take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
    iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

    reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.
  • willsummonwillsummon Member, Alpha Two
    I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
    -A party luck buff
    take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
    iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

    reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.
    I agree. Though, a party luck buff sounds like something the Charlatan would have, instead of an primary Rogue Archetype ability.

  • I like everything in OP, I would add something I don't think has been done before. Rogues could have:
    -A party luck buff
    take luck how you will, but I suggest it increases party crit chance or dodge chance.
    iconically it could increase the drop rate but that's kind of OP for an MMO.|

    reason for this idea is it gives rogues something other than being just your stealthy stabby player in the party.

    When you read my list, you can see that the rogue is far from just being stealthy and stabby. The archetypes I outlined give them a wide range of utility, from defensive tank-like roles to summoning and even manipulating illusions.

    That said, I really like your idea about adding a luck mechanic! It could offer rogues an entirely new layer of strategic importance. How about this: instead of just a flat luck buff, we introduce a PvP mechanic where a rogue’s luck actively cancels out the enemies' luck? So, in battles, whichever side has more rogues gains an advantage, stacking luck in their favor. In PvE, this could still increase crit or dodge chances like you mentioned, but in PvP, it adds an interesting competitive element where rogues influence the outcome beyond just their damage.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Gotta have Smokebomb (from WoW). 100% this ability (even with a 3m CD) being able to take control when to set up a kill is literally what Rogue is all about. I’ll be very surprised/disappointed if it’s not a spell for rogues as this move is what makes a Rogue class really feel like a Rogue (You Assassinating a kill target for PvP and PvE on your terms). 😶‍🌫️
    j2p8mdmovgu9.jpg
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited October 8
    Tantrum wrote: »

    I see where you're coming from, but I view the Shadow Lord and Charlatan as distinct in their thematic execution. In my mind, the Shadow Lord doesn't deal with illusions at all—he manipulates real shadows, conjuring tangible copies that act on his will. These aren't tricks of the mind but real entities, creating confusion simply through sheer numbers and misdirection with actual clones, not illusions.

    The Charlatan, as the name suggests, is the master of deceit and trickery, which is why illusions fit him. He's not about brute force or tangible shadows but psychological manipulation. I do really like your idea of him stealing buffs—it fits his trickster persona. He can not only deceive but turn the enemy's strength against them. That said, both classes could co-exist without stepping on each other's toes. The Charlatan could focus on illusions and debuffs, while the Shadow Lord brings real threats through shadows.

    In my vision, the Songcaller (Bard/Summoner) wouldn't rely on illusions either but would instead create song totems that play melodies independently, enhancing allies or debuffing enemies through their musical magic. This keeps them distinct from illusionists.

    The Charlatan, being a martial class, would use close-combat illusions to deceive and outmaneuver opponents, creating fake openings or disorienting foes in melee range. Meanwhile, the Trickster (Bard/Rogue) would represent the typical long-range illusionist, using ranged deception and misdirection from a distance.

    The two—Charlatan and Trickster—would both have illusion-based abilities but with very different focuses: close combat for the Charlatan and long-range trickery for the Trickster. This way, their illusion spells wouldn't overlap but complement each other, offering distinct styles of play.

    Part of my perspective on Shadow Lord and Songcaller come from how I expect Summoner Secondary archetypes to operate broadly in comparison to primary Summoners.

    First I see the Summoner as not just DPS, or even a 'jack of all' by flexibly summoning a situationally appoririate summons (though they do do that). I see their primary job as 'Target Saturation' aka presenting an opposng team with more threat vectors then the raw number of oponents they face and thus applying a steady pressure and taxation of attention and resources.

    I expect that ONLY Primary Summoners will have MULTIPLE minions (atleast 3) that can effectivly fight, while secondary summoners will only have ONE 'combat pet' so as to not overshadow thouse primary summoner classes. In any instance where secondary summoners get multiple entities thouse entities must to be significantly downgraded in threat to balance them. Thus the emphasis on a lack of damage output from them, but I can accept apply debuffing through these summons as in the 'dog pile' CC you described. This is what I focus on rather then 'real shaddow' vs 'only an illusion' what matters is can it hit you and really 'fight. Note that for a Summoner/Rogue the Shadowmancer the answer will be yes because of the primary archetype dictates it.

    Of the secondary summoners only the Rogue and Bard based ones look to me to be appropriate places for large numbers of low power summons fitting the two fantasies of 'shadow-clone-jitsu' and 'bardic illusions' as the basis. The Totemic objects with AoEs effects did occour to me as well as a means to do a secondary summoner role but I put that under the Shaman with an intent for them to be strong short to mid heal effects at the cost of mobility and its thematic consistency with the name. Given that Bards already have in their music an inherently long range AoE effect their seems to be much less benifit to giving them the totems you describe.

    So rather then make Song callers distinct from illusionists I though they were the ideal class to be THE illusionists class. It looks like you assign that to Trickster, which I admit fits the name but I don't think fits with the lack of any summoner archetype, I assigned Bard/Rogue the Debuffing focused role (often called a Dirge), as that's a highly desirable type of Bard gameplay and only the Rogue secondary seemed an appropriate match.

    Overall we seem to be juggling many of the same overall kit and gameplay concepts just applying them to different classes. I take the class names as an inspiration but feel matching the archetypes is more important. If I had my way the names would be given a second pass to bring them into allignment with the class once the actual theme and design of the class is completed (and to remove some of the redundancies and duplications, 'Warden', 'Song Warden' and 'Brood Warden' is a sloppy and confusing if you ask me)
  • Lodrig wrote: »
    Tantrum wrote: »

    I see where you're coming from, but I view the Shadow Lord and Charlatan as distinct in their thematic execution. In my mind, the Shadow Lord doesn't deal with illusions at all—he manipulates real shadows, conjuring tangible copies that act on his will. These aren't tricks of the mind but real entities, creating confusion simply through sheer numbers and misdirection with actual clones, not illusions.

    The Charlatan, as the name suggests, is the master of deceit and trickery, which is why illusions fit him. He's not about brute force or tangible shadows but psychological manipulation. I do really like your idea of him stealing buffs—it fits his trickster persona. He can not only deceive but turn the enemy's strength against them. That said, both classes could co-exist without stepping on each other's toes. The Charlatan could focus on illusions and debuffs, while the Shadow Lord brings real threats through shadows.

    In my vision, the Songcaller (Bard/Summoner) wouldn't rely on illusions either but would instead create song totems that play melodies independently, enhancing allies or debuffing enemies through their musical magic. This keeps them distinct from illusionists.

    The Charlatan, being a martial class, would use close-combat illusions to deceive and outmaneuver opponents, creating fake openings or disorienting foes in melee range. Meanwhile, the Trickster (Bard/Rogue) would represent the typical long-range illusionist, using ranged deception and misdirection from a distance.

    The two—Charlatan and Trickster—would both have illusion-based abilities but with very different focuses: close combat for the Charlatan and long-range trickery for the Trickster. This way, their illusion spells wouldn't overlap but complement each other, offering distinct styles of play.

    Part of my perspective on Shadow Lord and Songcaller come from how I expect Summoner Secondary archetypes to operate broadly in comparison to primary Summoners.

    First I see the Summoner as not just DPS, or even a 'jack of all' by flexibly summoning a situationally appoririate summons (though they do do that). I see their primary job as 'Target Saturation' aka presenting an opposng team with more threat vectors then the raw number of oponents they face and thus applying a steady pressure and taxation of attention and resources.

    I expect that ONLY Primary Summoners will have MULTIPLE minions (atleast 3) that can effectivly fight, while secondary summoners will only have ONE 'combat pet' so as to not overshadow thouse primary summoner classes. In any instance where secondary summoners get multiple entities thouse entities must to be significantly downgraded in threat to balance them. Thus the emphasis on a lack of damage output from them, but I can accept apply debuffing through these summons as in the 'dog pile' CC you described. This is what I focus on rather then 'real shaddow' vs 'only an illusion' what matters is can it hit you and really 'fight. Note that for a Summoner/Rogue the Shadowmancer the answer will be yes because of the primary archetype dictates it.

    Of the secondary summoners only the Rogue and Bard based ones look to me to be appropriate places for large numbers of low power summons fitting the two fantasies of 'shadow-clone-jitsu' and 'bardic illusions' as the basis. The Totemic objects with AoEs effects did occour to me as well as a means to do a secondary summoner role but I put that under the Shaman with an intent for them to be strong short to mid heal effects at the cost of mobility and its thematic consistency with the name. Given that Bards already have in their music an inherently long range AoE effect their seems to be much less benifit to giving them the totems you describe.

    So rather then make Song callers distinct from illusionists I though they were the ideal class to be THE illusionists class. It looks like you assign that to Trickster, which I admit fits the name but I don't think fits with the lack of any summoner archetype, I assigned Bard/Rogue the Debuffing focused role (often called a Dirge), as that's a highly desirable type of Bard gameplay and only the Rogue secondary seemed an appropriate match.

    Overall we seem to be juggling many of the same overall kit and gameplay concepts just applying them to different classes. I take the class names as an inspiration but feel matching the archetypes is more important. If I had my way the names would be given a second pass to bring them into allignment with the class once the actual theme and design of the class is completed (and to remove some of the redundancies and duplications, 'Warden', 'Song Warden' and 'Brood Warden' is a sloppy and confusing if you ask me)

    It seems we’re on the same page regarding the overarching themes, but with some key differences in how we view specific class mechanics and their focus. My main point is that the Rogue archetype, at its core, is designed to be a fighter who pushes beyond conventional methods, often crossing the line of honor to secure victory. Whether through sheer skill, dark rituals, or even harnessing arcane magic or shadow itself, they remain deeply tied to the theme of close-quarter combat.

    In line with this, the Shadow Lord isn’t about overwhelming the opponent with illusions or non-tangible effects. It’s about using real shadows to create tangible threats. These aren’t mere distractions but effective combatants that enhance the rogue's presence on the battlefield, keeping with the theme of a rogue who fights close to their target but becomes vulnerable when their resources are depleted.

    Regarding the Songcaller, I see them as distinct from illusionists. The idea of song totems that provide long-range AoE support fits well within the bardic archetype without stepping into the realm of illusion-based trickery. This leaves room for the Trickster—as you pointed out, a more natural fit for the illusionist role—who manipulates the battlefield from afar with misdirection and debuffs.

    So while we may assign these kits to different classes, my design still adheres to the core theme of the archetype, ensuring the rogue remains a close-combat threat, even when bolstered by shadow or illusion magic.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...

  • "Out-of-Combat Utilities (Across All Subclasses):
    Trap Disarmament: Detect and disarm traps in the environment.
    Lockpicking: Open locked doors, chests, or secure containers.
    Pickpocketing: Steal small items or information from NPCs.
    Scouting: Use stealth to safely explore dangerous areas or mark enemy positions.
    Cloak Allies: Temporarily hide party members, allowing them to bypass enemies or reset encounters.
    Shadow Traversal: Use shadows to bypass obstacles or travel through narrow passageways.
    Environmental Sabotage: Disable enemy alarms or sabotage environmental elements for strategic advantages.
    Secret Passage Discovery: Locate hidden doors or tunnels that offer shortcuts or secret loot.
    Misdirection: Confuse enemies or rival parties with false trails or misleading clues.
    Poison Crafting: Craft poisons to enhance weapons, traps, or other items for both combat and utility purposes."


    I think a lot of the utility skills especially with those involved with dungeon diving for all archetypes should have some skill element involved with minigames played to determine the outcome and passives/abilites part of the utility tree that improve your chances at success in these said minigames. An example of this would be if lockpicking was similar to the of Skyrim. Lockpicks can be made or bought for use by rogues and passives will increase the area in which a pick will be successful or the durability of the lockpick. Maybe for traps for rogues there's a short puzzle or reaction based minigame that determines if the trap is disarmed. If you fail maybe it would set it off and do a fraction of the damage that it would if you just tripped it instead.

    Maybe fighters would have some sort of ability to move heavy rocks or blockages to reveal passages and their mini game would be more along the line of spamming buttons fast enough and or in the correct order to successfully move a rock and you'd get X amount of tries for success before it you "ran out of strength" and utility tree passives will make the minigame easier or allow for more attempts.

    Mage likewise could have similar thing to dispel barriers blocking paths and routes

    Just food for thought, I am a skill ceiling guru and believe that games that allow people to build skill and rewards players for being more skillful than others with little to no skill cap to set themselves apart from fellow players creates a fun experience whether that's directly inside or outside of combat. IMO this would also provide immersion and create fun tasks for players that provide a more true "dungeon dive" experience to allow the discovery of hidden chests and loot you wouldn't find otherwise. It would break up the dungeon cycle of kill these mobs in this same spot, loot this chest in this same spot, and kill this boss yay dungeons over rinse repeat this exact thing. Make the players think, explore, and question what they know. I'm all for grinding for loot, but mixing it up this way if the loot is rewarding enough and the risk involved creates enough tension to make the player consider risk vs reward (like they've mentioned several times) gives the player a very satisfying experience. Imagine a mage identifies a passage behind a wall, the fighter plays a mini game and successfully busts the rock wall open revealing the passage that then leads to a room full of monsters of higher difficulty with a couple chests. After a hard fought battle and successfully clearing the room the group loots there chests and find a locked one that the rogue also plays a mini game to lockpicks the box that contains an even better loot pool than the others. Again just food for thought lol
  • willsummonwillsummon Member, Alpha Two
    While I hope for a shadowstep ability for Rogues in general, teleporting behind a target while in stealth, when is comes to the Shadow Lord, I hope the shadowstep is changed to a shadowpull, where the target is pulled through the shadows to be right in front of the Shadow Lord, with the Shadow Lord still being in stealth, and the target is temporarily stunned for a few seconds and not facing the Shadow Lord, thus allowing the Shadow Lord to strike from behind with the powers of daggers and darkness.

    Though, the shadowpull can be used to save allies, but it leaves the allies temporarily disorantent/slowed for a few seconds.

    Though, the shadowpull will not work on beings way more powerful than the Shadow Lord, such as Dungeon/Raid/World Bosses, in which case the shadowpull acts as a shadowstep for the Shadow Lord, teleporting the Shadow Lord, with no problems, to be right behind the powerful target, while still in stealth.
  • Lukerative wrote: »
    "Out-of-Combat Utilities (Across All Subclasses):
    Trap Disarmament: Detect and disarm traps in the environment.
    Lockpicking: Open locked doors, chests, or secure containers.
    Pickpocketing: Steal small items or information from NPCs.
    Scouting: Use stealth to safely explore dangerous areas or mark enemy positions.
    Cloak Allies: Temporarily hide party members, allowing them to bypass enemies or reset encounters.
    Shadow Traversal: Use shadows to bypass obstacles or travel through narrow passageways.
    Environmental Sabotage: Disable enemy alarms or sabotage environmental elements for strategic advantages.
    Secret Passage Discovery: Locate hidden doors or tunnels that offer shortcuts or secret loot.
    Misdirection: Confuse enemies or rival parties with false trails or misleading clues.
    Poison Crafting: Craft poisons to enhance weapons, traps, or other items for both combat and utility purposes."


    I think a lot of the utility skills especially with those involved with dungeon diving for all archetypes should have some skill element involved with minigames played to determine the outcome and passives/abilites part of the utility tree that improve your chances at success in these said minigames. An example of this would be if lockpicking was similar to the of Skyrim. Lockpicks can be made or bought for use by rogues and passives will increase the area in which a pick will be successful or the durability of the lockpick. Maybe for traps for rogues there's a short puzzle or reaction based minigame that determines if the trap is disarmed. If you fail maybe it would set it off and do a fraction of the damage that it would if you just tripped it instead.

    Maybe fighters would have some sort of ability to move heavy rocks or blockages to reveal passages and their mini game would be more along the line of spamming buttons fast enough and or in the correct order to successfully move a rock and you'd get X amount of tries for success before it you "ran out of strength" and utility tree passives will make the minigame easier or allow for more attempts.

    Mage likewise could have similar thing to dispel barriers blocking paths and routes

    Just food for thought, I am a skill ceiling guru and believe that games that allow people to build skill and rewards players for being more skillful than others with little to no skill cap to set themselves apart from fellow players creates a fun experience whether that's directly inside or outside of combat. IMO this would also provide immersion and create fun tasks for players that provide a more true "dungeon dive" experience to allow the discovery of hidden chests and loot you wouldn't find otherwise. It would break up the dungeon cycle of kill these mobs in this same spot, loot this chest in this same spot, and kill this boss yay dungeons over rinse repeat this exact thing. Make the players think, explore, and question what they know. I'm all for grinding for loot, but mixing it up this way if the loot is rewarding enough and the risk involved creates enough tension to make the player consider risk vs reward (like they've mentioned several times) gives the player a very satisfying experience. Imagine a mage identifies a passage behind a wall, the fighter plays a mini game and successfully busts the rock wall open revealing the passage that then leads to a room full of monsters of higher difficulty with a couple chests. After a hard fought battle and successfully clearing the room the group loots there chests and find a locked one that the rogue also plays a mini game to lockpicks the box that contains an even better loot pool than the others. Again just food for thought lol

    Although in an RPG it is typically the character's stat points that determine the outcome of an action, I like the idea of integrating minigames into the experience. Higher character skill could translate into making the minigame easier for the player, which adds a dynamic element that goes beyond simple stat checks. This provides a more immersive and skill-based interaction without removing the RPG element entirely. I think that talent point investment feel a bit lackluster compared to this approach.

    The other archetype minigames you mentioned also sound fun, but since this is a Rogue-focused thread, I'll stick to commenting on that aspect. The Rogue, as one of the most advertised dungeon experts, should definitely have the most involvement in these minigames. While other classes may move rocks or activate ancient portals, the Rogue's expertise should shine in areas like finding hidden doors, disarming traps, picking locks, and navigating obstacles like jumping or scaling walls to reach levers that open pathways for the rest of the party.

    This way, the Rogue becomes indispensable to a dungeon party, much like how a Cleric is vital for heals, the Tank for soaking damage, and the Bard for providing essential buffs. Each class has a critical role, and the Rogue’s ability to handle dungeon-specific challenges adds another layer of necessity to their presence in a balanced party
    willsummon wrote: »
    While I hope for a shadowstep ability for Rogues in general, teleporting behind a target while in stealth, when is comes to the Shadow Lord, I hope the shadowstep is changed to a shadowpull, where the target is pulled through the shadows to be right in front of the Shadow Lord, with the Shadow Lord still being in stealth, and the target is temporarily stunned for a few seconds and not facing the Shadow Lord, thus allowing the Shadow Lord to strike from behind with the powers of daggers and darkness.

    Though, the shadowpull can be used to save allies, but it leaves the allies temporarily disorantent/slowed for a few seconds.

    Though, the shadowpull will not work on beings way more powerful than the Shadow Lord, such as Dungeon/Raid/World Bosses, in which case the shadowpull acts as a shadowstep for the Shadow Lord, teleporting the Shadow Lord, with no problems, to be right behind the powerful target, while still in stealth.

    I like this idea—especially the concept of shadowpull where the target is drawn to the Shadow Lord for a devastating strike from stealth. It fits perfectly with the Rogue’s mastery of darkness and deception. However, I wouldn’t give the Shadow Lord a fallback shadowstep ability if the shadowpull fails. Instead, shadowpull should be their unique tool, setting them apart. If it doesn’t work on more powerful foes like bosses, then perhaps the emphasis should shift to other stealth-based tactics in those situations, without relying on a traditional shadowstep.

    Among all rogue subclasses, I believe the Nightspell should have the most versatile shadowstep. They would be the ones to excel in more mobility-focused stealth maneuvers, while the Shadow Lord should focus on pulling enemies into their deadly grasp, making them feel like the embodiment of shadows.

    I also think the Nightspell could have a more dynamic shadowstep ability, allowing them to teleport either while in stealth or even after they've been revealed. This would make them incredibly mobile and flexible in combat. However, to balance this, their acrobatic movement or evasiveness could suffer, ensuring they rely more on their shadow-based abilities rather than physical agility. This trade-off would make them unique within the rogue archetypes, prioritizing stealth and positioning over quick, evasive maneuvers.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
  • PhamPham Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think that any rogue archetype can work in a game with almost a total lack of stealth (like most mmo's, including this one) except as a "die often, glass-cannon" play style. Maybe people are OK with that but I question whether that's really what a "rogue" archetype should be.

    There are a few ways mmo's can implement stealth, such as full or partial invisibility but with tons of aoe skills that is even less effective. Also, stealth really has no place in large battlefields where the objectives or tide of battle is determined by just killing the other side.

    Another way that stealth can be supplemented in an indirect way is just to be able to obscure the target's vision with some kind of full or partial blind-the-enemy skill. But that would be super annoying to other players on the receiving end and could be abused to grief players.

    Smoke bombs and smoke screens and the like are of very limited use/effect wherever there isn't an abundance of artificial or natural cover.

    I suppose rogues could potentially fill the role of a "distraction" in pvp, or maybe by setting traps in the environment.

    Basically, I think the archetype that is currently named "rogue" would be more aptly named "assassin" because that is more akin to the actual role being filled by the skill set.

    To my mind, rogues are first and foremost unseen, anonymous and undetected. I don't see how that can be accomplished or well implemented in an mmo and I don't think that is even the current focus of the archetype in this implementation.
    "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes." - Ephesians 6:11
  • Pham wrote: »
    I don't think that any rogue archetype can work in a game with almost a total lack of stealth (like most mmo's, including this one) except as a "die often, glass-cannon" play style. Maybe people are OK with that but I question whether that's really what a "rogue" archetype should be.

    There are a few ways mmo's can implement stealth, such as full or partial invisibility but with tons of aoe skills that is even less effective. Also, stealth really has no place in large battlefields where the objectives or tide of battle is determined by just killing the other side.

    Another way that stealth can be supplemented in an indirect way is just to be able to obscure the target's vision with some kind of full or partial blind-the-enemy skill. But that would be super annoying to other players on the receiving end and could be abused to grief players.

    Smoke bombs and smoke screens and the like are of very limited use/effect wherever there isn't an abundance of artificial or natural cover.

    I suppose rogues could potentially fill the role of a "distraction" in pvp, or maybe by setting traps in the environment.

    Basically, I think the archetype that is currently named "rogue" would be more aptly named "assassin" because that is more akin to the actual role being filled by the skill set.

    To my mind, rogues are first and foremost unseen, anonymous and undetected. I don't see how that can be accomplished or well implemented in an mmo and I don't think that is even the current focus of the archetype in this implementation.

    I disagree that stealth has no place on the battlefield. Battlefields often have key objectives, fortified positions, and strategic areas that can be infiltrated or sabotaged by rogues. Their role isn't just direct combat but also providing tactical advantages.

    Consider battlegrounds like WoW's Capture the Flag—rogues had a unique role. They could hide in the enemy base to assassinate the flag carrier or retrieve the flag at crucial moments. Their utility went beyond mere assassination to influencing the tide of battle in indirect ways.

    Regarding griefing, I believe the term has lost its original meaning. In the past, it referred to sustained harassment to force players to log out. Today, it seems like any form of PvP aggression is labeled as griefing, which dilutes the term. In a PvP setting, rogues disrupting or disorienting opponents is part of their job. Smoke bombs and misdirection skills should absolutely be annoying—that’s what makes them effective tools for rogues to control the battlefield.

    I agree that achieving true, undetected stealth like in real life, with one-shot opportunities, is impossible in MMORPGs. The mechanics just don't support that level of lethality from stealth attacks. However, if you look at max-geared rogues in some games, you can come very close. For example, ambushing someone from stealth can take half their health, then stunning them, followed by a quick flurry of hits to finish them off.

    In my design, I've given the Assassin the ability to restealth after a successful kill, maintaining that feel of slipping back into the shadows to strike again, which should be in line with your fantasy.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
  • willsummon wrote: »
    While I hope for a shadowstep ability for Rogues in general, teleporting behind a target while in stealth, when is comes to the Shadow Lord, I hope the shadowstep is changed to a shadowpull, where the target is pulled through the shadows to be right in front of the Shadow Lord, with the Shadow Lord still being in stealth, and the target is temporarily stunned for a few seconds and not facing the Shadow Lord, thus allowing the Shadow Lord to strike from behind with the powers of daggers and darkness.

    Though, the shadowpull can be used to save allies, but it leaves the allies temporarily disorantent/slowed for a few seconds.

    Though, the shadowpull will not work on beings way more powerful than the Shadow Lord, such as Dungeon/Raid/World Bosses, in which case the shadowpull acts as a shadowstep for the Shadow Lord, teleporting the Shadow Lord, with no problems, to be right behind the powerful target, while still in stealth.

    Enemy pull abilities seem inapropriate for a Rogue, unless it is a Rogue/Tank. Pulls are anti-synergistic with stealth for one. A stealth character uses their stealth to get inside of an enemy formation, evading it's defences to then strike at soft targets. A Pull means you don't need to get in the enemy formatin and can attack from the outside AND remove your target from the protection of their nearby peers so it is considerably stronger then stealth. This is why pull abilities are given to tanks as they inherently need an allied DPS to capitalize on the pull and thus promote teamwork. A Rogue who can be stealthed and pull an oponent out of position while still delivering burst damage seems overpowered to me. So i'd only pair this with Rogue classes which have reduced stealth and or damage output.

    I have no problem with Rogue speed bursts, eiher while stealthed or revealed and their speed burst confering other benifits like avoiding collision, passing through obstacles, traps and making them CC immune is good. Also the idea of forcibly rotating an oponent so their back is too you for bonus damage is good, if their is a donus damage from the rear as a general feature of all melee attacks. I would just limit it to short range and just rotation without pulling the oponent towards you if all rogues would have this ability.
  • Tantrum wrote: »
    I disagree that stealth has no place on the battlefield. Battlefields often have key objectives, fortified positions, and strategic areas that can be infiltrated or sabotaged by rogues. Their role isn't just direct combat but also providing tactical advantages.

    Consider battlegrounds like WoW's Capture the Flag—rogues had a unique role. They could hide in the enemy base to assassinate the flag carrier or retrieve the flag at crucial moments. Their utility went beyond mere assassination to influencing the tide of battle in indirect ways.

    Regarding griefing, I believe the term has lost its original meaning. In the past, it referred to sustained harassment to force players to log out. Today, it seems like any form of PvP aggression is labeled as griefing, which dilutes the term. In a PvP setting, rogues disrupting or disorienting opponents is part of their job. Smoke bombs and misdirection skills should absolutely be annoying—that’s what makes them effective tools for rogues to control the battlefield.

    I agree that achieving true, undetected stealth like in real life, with one-shot opportunities, is impossible in MMORPGs. The mechanics just don't support that level of lethality from stealth attacks. However, if you look at max-geared rogues in some games, you can come very close. For example, ambushing someone from stealth can take half their health, then stunning them, followed by a quick flurry of hits to finish them off.

    In my design, I've given the Assassin the ability to restealth after a successful kill, maintaining that feel of slipping back into the shadows to strike again, which should be in line with your fantasy.

    Team Fortress 2 Spy was doing thouse Capture the Flag shananigans LONG before WoW was even a twinkle in the eye of a Blizzard designer. Still I agree that good objective based battles will have a place for stealth gameplay. At the very least objectives can breakup and disperse players into many small scale fights and can cause the big 'mosh pit' fight to move from location to location and that invariably generates stragglers which can be picked off.

    The issue I think is that people expect large pvp battles to be the typical chaotic swarm of bees that closely resembles every hollywood movie once two armies clash together. And in such a swarm a Rogue is certainly at a disadvantage because their lower health makes them easily killed and any oponents they take out are likely to be easily rezed by the enemy clerics who will be too numerous for a decapition attack. Any engagement where the enemy has just 1 cleric then the Rogue can probably win the fight for their team by kamikazieing that enemy cleric.

    I think we just generally want to not see mosh pit fights generally because they are bad for everyone (except AoE throwing mages who don't have friendly fire mechanics which is why games absolutly should have friendly fire on AoE). But so far what we have seen of Ashes large group on group combat is that enemy swarms do not intermingle and tend to act like rubber balls elasticly deforming on contact with a clear seperation of Tanks and Fighters in the front and ranged classes and supports behind. If this remains the norm then circling around to the rear to attack supports may be a viable Rogue tactic even in large battles.

    The successfull coordination of multiple rogues would likely be the key to success, as sending them in piece-meal is a sure fire way to get them killed with little to show for it, so I do agree that a 'lone ranger' rogue is almost pointless in a big pvp which is not the case for other archetypes where just being yet another frontliner or back rank blaster without any real coordination can still be both fun and effective. So carefull consideration should be given to how rogue skills allow them to synergize with each other, such a benifitting from each other debuffs, means of target selection and prioritization, assisting each other in escaping etc should be possible.
  • willsummonwillsummon Member, Alpha Two
    One buff/debuff I hope the Rogue can apply is a debuff on the target that every melee hit the target received, for a set number of times, caused the debuff to add damage to each blow, until the number on the debuff is exhausted, or the debuff wears off.

    The number is to high for said Rogue to use all the hits before it wears off, but anyone attacking melee in a group also procs the debuff, making the skill more useful in a group.
  • Lodrig wrote: »

    Enemy pull abilities seem inapropriate for a Rogue, unless it is a Rogue/Tank. Pulls are anti-synergistic with stealth for one. A stealth character uses their stealth to get inside of an enemy formation, evading it's defences to then strike at soft targets. A Pull means you don't need to get in the enemy formatin and can attack from the outside AND remove your target from the protection of their nearby peers so it is considerably stronger then stealth. This is why pull abilities are given to tanks as they inherently need an allied DPS to capitalize on the pull and thus promote teamwork. A Rogue who can be stealthed and pull an oponent out of position while still delivering burst damage seems overpowered to me. So i'd only pair this with Rogue classes which have reduced stealth and or damage output.

    I have no problem with Rogue speed bursts, eiher while stealthed or revealed and their speed burst confering other benifits like avoiding collision, passing through obstacles, traps and making them CC immune is good. Also the idea of forcibly rotating an oponent so their back is too you for bonus damage is good, if their is a donus damage from the rear as a general feature of all melee attacks. I would just limit it to short range and just rotation without pulling the oponent towards you if all rogues would have this ability.

    I agree with your points, and after thinking it through, I realize I didn't consider the full implications of the shadow pull. A pull ability does seem more appropriate for tank classes rather than rogues, especially when factoring in the synergy between stealth and burst damage. Stealth rogues rely on sneaking into enemy formations unnoticed to strike soft targets, and a pull mechanic could undermine that by allowing them to attack from a safe distance, which could make rogues overpowered by bypassing both positioning and protection while staying in stealth.

    Limiting the pull to classes with reduced stealth or damage output would help with balance, but overall, speed bursts, obstacle passing, and rotating enemies for back attacks are more fitting for the rogue’s toolkit. Forcibly rotating an opponent without pulling them feels like a natural addition, keeping that close-combat advantage while avoiding excessive power.
    Lodrig wrote: »

    Team Fortress 2 Spy was doing thouse Capture the Flag shananigans LONG before WoW was even a twinkle in the eye of a Blizzard designer. Still I agree that good objective based battles will have a place for stealth gameplay. At the very least objectives can breakup and disperse players into many small scale fights and can cause the big 'mosh pit' fight to move from location to location and that invariably generates stragglers which can be picked off.

    The issue I think is that people expect large pvp battles to be the typical chaotic swarm of bees that closely resembles every hollywood movie once two armies clash together. And in such a swarm a Rogue is certainly at a disadvantage because their lower health makes them easily killed and any oponents they take out are likely to be easily rezed by the enemy clerics who will be too numerous for a decapition attack. Any engagement where the enemy has just 1 cleric then the Rogue can probably win the fight for their team by kamikazieing that enemy cleric.

    I think we just generally want to not see mosh pit fights generally because they are bad for everyone (except AoE throwing mages who don't have friendly fire mechanics which is why games absolutly should have friendly fire on AoE). But so far what we have seen of Ashes large group on group combat is that enemy swarms do not intermingle and tend to act like rubber balls elasticly deforming on contact with a clear seperation of Tanks and Fighters in the front and ranged classes and supports behind. If this remains the norm then circling around to the rear to attack supports may be a viable Rogue tactic even in large battles.

    The successfull coordination of multiple rogues would likely be the key to success, as sending them in piece-meal is a sure fire way to get them killed with little to show for it, so I do agree that a 'lone ranger' rogue is almost pointless in a big pvp which is not the case for other archetypes where just being yet another frontliner or back rank blaster without any real coordination can still be both fun and effective. So carefull consideration should be given to how rogue skills allow them to synergize with each other, such a benifitting from each other debuffs, means of target selection and prioritization, assisting each other in escaping etc should be possible.

    You're wrong about the timeline—WoW's Warsong Gulch launched in 2005, while Team Fortress 2 came out in 2007, so you might be thinking of the original Team Fortress. I didn’t play that one, so I can’t confirm, but I generally avoid comparing shooters to RPGs since they rely on very different gameplay mechanics.

    Regarding the mosh pit battles, Ashes of Creation will likely handle them differently due to its full collision system. This means the chaotic zerg-style combat you see in games like Guild Wars 2 won’t be possible. Even in what appears to be chaotic combat, there will be some forced structure since players can’t just run through each other. That will add a certain elegance to the battlefield, where positioning and tactics become key. Rogues will still have opportunities to exploit stragglers or circle around to take out support characters, but coordination will be essential.

    I agree with your point about rogues needing to work together in larger battles. Sending them in piecemeal will only get them killed, but a well-coordinated rogue group can make a significant impact. If their skills allow for synergy, like benefiting from each other’s debuffs or providing ways to assist each other in escape and target prioritization, rogues could become a deadly force even in larger PvP engagements.
    Tantrum Medieth. Your greates ally or your greates foe...
  • Tantrum wrote: »

    You're wrong about the timeline—WoW's Warsong Gulch launched in 2005, while Team Fortress 2 came out in 2007, so you might be thinking of the original Team Fortress. I didn’t play that one, so I can’t confirm, but I generally avoid comparing shooters to RPGs since they rely on very different gameplay mechanics.

    Regarding the mosh pit battles, Ashes of Creation will likely handle them differently due to its full collision system. This means the chaotic zerg-style combat you see in games like Guild Wars 2 won’t be possible. Even in what appears to be chaotic combat, there will be some forced structure since players can’t just run through each other. That will add a certain elegance to the battlefield, where positioning and tactics become key. Rogues will still have opportunities to exploit stragglers or circle around to take out support characters, but coordination will be essential.

    I agree with your point about rogues needing to work together in larger battles. Sending them in piecemeal will only get them killed, but a well-coordinated rogue group can make a significant impact. If their skills allow for synergy, like benefiting from each other’s debuffs or providing ways to assist each other in escape and target prioritization, rogues could become a deadly force even in larger PvP engagements.

    Ah thx for the correction, yes I was thinking of Original TF.

    I see a lot of potential for 'Rogue Squadrons' to to speak, even potentially Rogue mercenary guilds which can contribute a well coordinated 8 man rogue party to a large conflict. Because they by nature move and act seperatly from the ball of non-stealthed characters from each side which clash it's a lot easier to just hire rogue mercs to launch mass surprize assaults upon the enemy rear.

    They might also be the ideal 'side quest blockers' say your node war has an objective to 'control the watch tower', you dispatch the Rogue to camp the location and assasinate anyone who tries to complete the objective. Because they can stealth and only attack with the number of rogues nessary to kill the oponents they face the enemy team dosn't learn how many rogues are present and has to gamble in how many forces they devote to the objective, too few and they are all killed (and they can't be rezzed because the rogues guard the bodies untill they have to respawn far away), too many and the Rogues just slip away to hit what ever is now exposed.

    Once you go to the operationl level (aka in between the tactical and strategic levles) and put them under an cunning general who is evaluating the battles at a global level then the Rogues gain a lot of utility to misdirect, hit soft spots etc. Basically the same things that an individual rogue could do in a small tactical fight the rogue squadron can do at an operational level.
  • GodbrithilGodbrithil Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Hero of the People, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I hope that the villain, especially the assassin, really turns out the way Steven described him. Invisible, quick in and out, and and cuz of this very deadly, but also very squishy.
    phoenX_Lead.png
  • Bumping this thread cause I realized Rogue play would benifit greatly from an 'determine weakness' or 'analyze player' skill. Basically a skill you can use on a player at a distance while in stealth which dose nothing other then give the rogue information about a target. While it should provide some basic info on a mob the main purpose is for PvP where it should reveal information about an oponents class and possibly skills.

    My thought is that you start to see a characters skill bar, at first just a few icons randomly but the longer yoou observe, the more it fills in and the closer you are to the target the faster it fills in as well. Seeing a players skill bar is great way to both see their class (I'm assuming that augmentation will modify skill icons so if you know them this will reveal class) as well as a lot of detail about how their character is built and even substle hints about what skills they might lean on most based on how they arranged them so their is a good element of player deduction and interpretation introduced here.

    Notably the Rogue dose NOT get to see stats which would be rather trivial to evaluate and go against the spirit of the chunked health bars which acto to conceal exactly how fast a plyer is lossing HP when attacked, so a pre-attack assesment shouldn't spoil that.
  • I LOVE the idea of Rogues using little gadgets/bombs/traps and maybe even a grappling hook. In general I really hope Rogue will have a lot of tools for mobility.
    At the end of the day, it's night.
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