Everquest like Epic Quest Items
Taiisien
Member, Alpha Two
Hello All,
As the title suggests I would like to visit the idea once more of Everquest like Epic Quest Items. I have of course followed the discussions held on the forums with three post in particular, one from 2018, followed by another thread in 2020, and a final one in 2022. There were lots of great ideas discussed in those threads and I hope that this one will have similar discussion.
For me, one of my best memories in Everquest was finishing the quest line and acquiring my Singing Short Sword (the original Epic 1.0 for Bards), I still think about getting this item 20+ years later and remember it fondly. Although not considered an Epic, another great memory was when I was able to finish acquiring my full Lambent Armor set, this was a Bard specific set of armor that was all deep royal blue. When I first started in EQ I was more of a casual player and because I was not in a raiding guild I could not really consider getting my epic, but I could and did get my Lambent Armor. In every game I have played since EQ I have wished for something along the lines of these items once again, unfortunately this has not really been a thing in any other game, maybe AoC can be different.
The item, not sure it needs to be a weapon, maybe it is an ascetic skin that can be put on an item and it adds an augment slot or a clicky or both. I don't think I want it to be a BiS item as then everyone will feel obligated to go get it, but if it is something that takes a ton of work and adds a unique utility that is awesome to have but not strictly required to have, then it becomes more of an "I completed this" badge of honor.
First I propose changing the name, we all loved Epics in EQ but, new game, new title. I have been thinking Fabled and August. The two names are for the two tiers mentioned below.
So then, next, I believe there should be two tiers of items, one set for the more casual player, something in the vein of the Lambent Armor set I mentioned before, and one for the high end player. It is not just about time devoted to acquiring the item, as eventually even a casual player can devote enough time, but that does not mean they have the access, here is what I was thinking.
For the Fabled tier this would be achievable by anyone in game and will consist of a continuous chain of quests starting at approximately level 5 and finishing around max level minus 2. Along with the quests the adventurer would also need to do some work in the artisan skills, say two or three of these skills to artisan level 10 thus not forcing you into a particular apprenticeship but not available without some work, and of course dungeon runs, lots of them, culminating in a final grand dungeon encounter. Parts of the quest will require rare spawns (maybe triggered only by being keyed/flagged for the quest) with low drop rates though these spawn/drop rates can be affected by group size, number of players in the area, weather, and your contribution to the node your in, while other parts of the quest may be tied to / altered by weather events or time of day.
The August tier would be achievable by adventurers that not only have time, but a depth of connections and support in game. This would consist of a continuous chain of quests starting at approximately max level minus 5 (or maybe at the completion of the fabled quest line, maybe either of these things or maybe both) and would be expected to be completed at max level. This would contain one or two artisan skills at skill level 20 (but be able to be driven from say a pool of 5 differing skills hopefully to prevent forcing the player into a skill they do not want) and one or two artisan skills at skill level 10. This would also require numerous dungeon runs, several grand dungeons, at least one raid, and could be tied to node progression. Parts of the quest will still require some rare spawns and low drop rate items with the same conditions as above, though significantly less of these due to the grand dungeons and raids being required. Because of the difficulty of the grand dungeons and raids, the drop rates for these quest items will be high and possibly only appear for players that are keyed/flagged for the quest.
Other things of note for both tiers...
--Should be distinctive and visible. You could see a bard in Lambent armor a mile away. People should be able to recognize those that have put in the effort to get one of these items.
--The item should be primary class specific and only usable by that class. No Mages with a cleric rez stick.
--The quests should make the player travel across much of the map, giving them reason to go to places off the beaten path and outside the normally farmed areas.
--There should not be a way to buy your way through the quests, either the quest items need to be bound or somehow keyed to the person that is on the quest. If you want epic rewards you need to do epic levels of work.
--The item should be up-gradable through the artisan skills that were used to craft the item so it does not become obsolete when the next expansion comes out.
--Parts of the quest could be tied to weather or time of day, but since a season can be 1-2 weeks long IRL and there are 2-4 seasons I don't believe the quest should be tied to the season, unless they want to add some sort of magical trigger for temporarily changing the season in a small area while working on the quest.
Here are some good quotes from the other threads that I found interesting / helpful...
As the title suggests I would like to visit the idea once more of Everquest like Epic Quest Items. I have of course followed the discussions held on the forums with three post in particular, one from 2018, followed by another thread in 2020, and a final one in 2022. There were lots of great ideas discussed in those threads and I hope that this one will have similar discussion.
For me, one of my best memories in Everquest was finishing the quest line and acquiring my Singing Short Sword (the original Epic 1.0 for Bards), I still think about getting this item 20+ years later and remember it fondly. Although not considered an Epic, another great memory was when I was able to finish acquiring my full Lambent Armor set, this was a Bard specific set of armor that was all deep royal blue. When I first started in EQ I was more of a casual player and because I was not in a raiding guild I could not really consider getting my epic, but I could and did get my Lambent Armor. In every game I have played since EQ I have wished for something along the lines of these items once again, unfortunately this has not really been a thing in any other game, maybe AoC can be different.
The item, not sure it needs to be a weapon, maybe it is an ascetic skin that can be put on an item and it adds an augment slot or a clicky or both. I don't think I want it to be a BiS item as then everyone will feel obligated to go get it, but if it is something that takes a ton of work and adds a unique utility that is awesome to have but not strictly required to have, then it becomes more of an "I completed this" badge of honor.
First I propose changing the name, we all loved Epics in EQ but, new game, new title. I have been thinking Fabled and August. The two names are for the two tiers mentioned below.
So then, next, I believe there should be two tiers of items, one set for the more casual player, something in the vein of the Lambent Armor set I mentioned before, and one for the high end player. It is not just about time devoted to acquiring the item, as eventually even a casual player can devote enough time, but that does not mean they have the access, here is what I was thinking.
For the Fabled tier this would be achievable by anyone in game and will consist of a continuous chain of quests starting at approximately level 5 and finishing around max level minus 2. Along with the quests the adventurer would also need to do some work in the artisan skills, say two or three of these skills to artisan level 10 thus not forcing you into a particular apprenticeship but not available without some work, and of course dungeon runs, lots of them, culminating in a final grand dungeon encounter. Parts of the quest will require rare spawns (maybe triggered only by being keyed/flagged for the quest) with low drop rates though these spawn/drop rates can be affected by group size, number of players in the area, weather, and your contribution to the node your in, while other parts of the quest may be tied to / altered by weather events or time of day.
The August tier would be achievable by adventurers that not only have time, but a depth of connections and support in game. This would consist of a continuous chain of quests starting at approximately max level minus 5 (or maybe at the completion of the fabled quest line, maybe either of these things or maybe both) and would be expected to be completed at max level. This would contain one or two artisan skills at skill level 20 (but be able to be driven from say a pool of 5 differing skills hopefully to prevent forcing the player into a skill they do not want) and one or two artisan skills at skill level 10. This would also require numerous dungeon runs, several grand dungeons, at least one raid, and could be tied to node progression. Parts of the quest will still require some rare spawns and low drop rate items with the same conditions as above, though significantly less of these due to the grand dungeons and raids being required. Because of the difficulty of the grand dungeons and raids, the drop rates for these quest items will be high and possibly only appear for players that are keyed/flagged for the quest.
Other things of note for both tiers...
--Should be distinctive and visible. You could see a bard in Lambent armor a mile away. People should be able to recognize those that have put in the effort to get one of these items.
--The item should be primary class specific and only usable by that class. No Mages with a cleric rez stick.
--The quests should make the player travel across much of the map, giving them reason to go to places off the beaten path and outside the normally farmed areas.
--There should not be a way to buy your way through the quests, either the quest items need to be bound or somehow keyed to the person that is on the quest. If you want epic rewards you need to do epic levels of work.
--The item should be up-gradable through the artisan skills that were used to craft the item so it does not become obsolete when the next expansion comes out.
--Parts of the quest could be tied to weather or time of day, but since a season can be 1-2 weeks long IRL and there are 2-4 seasons I don't believe the quest should be tied to the season, unless they want to add some sort of magical trigger for temporarily changing the season in a small area while working on the quest.
Here are some good quotes from the other threads that I found interesting / helpful...
...for those of us that played EQ, those epic quests are something that many of us still remember fondly over 20 years later. While they aren't a "must have", they were a really cool feature that can add a lot to the game.
Maybe instead of the epic quest yielding a BiS item it could give a useful clicky instead, inspired by EQs epic 2.0s. That way the gear economy wouldn't be affected, but there would still be a good reason to undertake the quest for people who wanted a smaller but still relevant reward.
I don't want them to be added for the games launch, no more feature creep is needed, we just want to play haha. Epics in EQ came with the games first expansion, so this is definitely something that could come later.
novercalis wrote: »...to break up the end game loop of most typical mmos and to add more hours to the "end game" content.
New World - spam dungeons for expertise
WOW - spam raids for loot
EQ - outside of spamming raids/dungeons, you also had this epic quest that required 100s of hours of going to different dungeons/raids that arent the final spam dungeon/raid content that we have become used to.
novercalis wrote: »...It branches you off now into a profession, running around the world to get stuff, etc.
Adding more variety of end-game content beside raids/pvp is ideal. This epic quest encompasses Solo content, group content and raid content, maybe pvp content too.
As for the reward - sure, doesnt have to be armor/weapon/jewel. can be enchantment, trinkets, "clickies", etc.
and we can also find ways to give artisans epic quests lines too.
...As for how necessary the item is for end-game content ... my opinion is that it would not be necessary as it would force players to do something that may frustrate them to the point of not playing (ie, monk epic weapon rare spawn with an even rarer drop rate for one item).
As for the balance of the item(s), I think of it as a League of Legends Orin up-gradable item. The stats are slightly better than the original item ... enough to make a small difference, but not enough to make the item over powered. In my opinion they should be best in slot, but only a slight addition to stats and an augmentation slot.
...As for the quest chain variable, the way the Node system is set up (just my thought here) if a part of the quest chain requires an specific NPC then there is a possibility of 4 spawn locations for that NPC within the world / server based on the following variables:
1. NPC can only spawn in a Node that is linked to a Metropolis or under a frozen waterfall (which could be
very different from server to server (or the NPC roams throughout the world, yet limited to an set distance
around a Metropolis for example)
2. Rare quest item drops off "x" Legendary world boss (I think I heard those are on a timed rotation)
3. Item only spawns during a certain season (which could spawn in multiple locations during that season)
These type of variables would keep the servers different, give players on the different servers a different experience within the game. Also, if the epic weapon had an additional augmentation slot there is less of a chance that 2 players (same main archtype / sub archtype) will have the same epic weapon. Say player 1 augments to add a paralyzing ability to Backstab, where player 2 augments poison and a player 3 augments a different ability altogether.
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Comments
The amount of effort needed and interdependencies across the different types of players – between raiders and PvPers and crafters and even role players and the taverns and businesses: the processors and gatherers – all of those systems will likely have a component that lends toward creating or crafting that legendary item... We want to stay away from the highly RNGd system, and instead take our multiple progression paths that we are offering the players and put the construction components for achieving these legendary items within them so it encourages communities to work together because it's going to be difficult for just one person by themselves to gather everything. Not to say that they couldn't in an economic sense, by buying those components, that's possible. But achieving them from a time investment standpoint we want it to be considerably less RNG focused.[4] – Steven Sharif
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Legendary_items
To be fair to the OP, this has literally nothing at all to do with what they were talking about.
Prismatic weapon quests in EQ2 were fairly good for the time, thought the signature quest series of each content cycle only improved.
The prismatic series was nothing compared to EQ2's first iteration of epic weapon quests (from the games 4th expansion), and EQ2's epic weapon quests were nothing compared to EQ's epic weapon quests.
To be honest, most people haven't played a game with this kind of massive quest arc, and probably don't really know what is even being discussed.
All that said, I really don't think Ashes is capable of having quests of thst caliber.
I am both familiar with the quote, and the wiki page, however, these are both describing the item being of "Legendary Quality". I am not talking about an item being of "Epic Quality" (example of quality ratings from most games... Poor Quality [Grey] - Common Quality [White] - Uncommon Quality [Green] - Rare Quality [Blue] - Epic Quality [Purple] - Legendary Quality [Orange]).
In Everquest, for those that have not played / do not know, there was a quest line, unique to player class, which at the end of the quest rewarded an item that was a combination of trophy, BiS weapon, often with a clickable spell or action, and overall maximized that class. To obtain these items it took a combination of spawn camping, rare loot drops, dungeon crawls, crafting, and multiple 72 man raids. This is what made them Epic, not the quality rating .
For the Bard class, this was the "Singing Short Sword". This item acted as every instrument type (in EQ songs were tied to an instrument which you had to have equipped and the better the instrument the more potent the song), was a BiS weapon, gave focus that increased song power by 80%, had a boatload of stats, as well as having a clicky effect which increased strength, attack, and gave haste. It was the epitome of the best bard item.
This, these grandiose and arduous quest lines that end in a class specific trophy / clickable, is what I am hoping that AoC, especially with Bill Trost and others, will bring back to the genre.
I read this and in my mind I replayed Kirk's Khan yell, only I was the one yelling and the name was Phinigel!
Edit for spelling.