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Opinions on Drop Tables and rates being hidden or public?

KevohlKevohl Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited October 6 in General Discussion
Do you guys think Drop tables should be secret, requiring us players to log drops and compile rates, or would you rather this be public information provided by intrepid?

I personally like seeing detailed drop tables provided by the devs. I like when the game (or wiki) shows me the exact chance to get that item I'm after. I also like grinding a mob to 'complete' the drop table and see how far over or under rate I am.
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I am of the opinion that since players will work this kind of thing out, there is no point in Intrepid hiding it.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depends on the dynamism level of the game.

    If the droprate changes by weather, season, number of other mobs of the same type spawned, etc, then it has the potential to just cause confusion and complaining anyway.

    I'm not against the information being public, but in situations where variance is actually high, it could end up being a lot of information, increasing the chance that it will:
    1) Be updated and slightly balanced at some point, then becoming incorrect
    2) Be confusing in ways that lead to other complaints or frustrations over certain time periods
    3) Be server dependent, due to some aspect of the World Manager

    What I fully hope is that Intrepid doesn't go to the lengths of specifically trying to hide things. If a player works out a rough droprate of something under X condition and then it changes after a patch, enough data should be enough for Intrepid to be able to at least say 'no we didn't change that, it should still be somewhere between 20 and 25% droprate' so that the community can check without squabbling over the value.
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  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am of the opinion that since players will work this kind of thing out, there is no point in Intrepid hiding it.

    I agree but would be more interesting i think if everyone had to figure it out, would make the journey a little more mysterious and slow the amount of rare gear etc that would pop up in the beginning.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am of the opinion that since players will work this kind of thing out, there is no point in Intrepid hiding it.

    I agree but would be more interesting i think if everyone had to figure it out, would make the journey a little more mysterious and slow the amount of rare gear etc that would pop up in the beginning.

    I don't personally consider decoding game systems to be a good source of mystery.

    To me, that is what a games lore should provide.
  • I see no reason to hide monsters Drop Tables/Drop Rates from players, it's not like it won't get datamined anyway.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    But in case it can't be datamined (dunno if that is even a possibility), I'm personally an enjoyer of knowledge pvp, so I'd want loot tables to be completely hidden.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This is one of the things that should be published. Fighting RNG never feels good, but at least you'll have an idea of what you're getting into if you're after something in particular
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    A shower thought!

    What about a system like this:
    • there's an NPC faction of "fauna researchers"
    • FR have representatives of all in-game races
    • FR know how many unique drops a mob has, but that info is hidden
    • the info can be uncovered if a player who has looted (or was in a party that looted) an item on the loot list and then submitted that information to the FR
    • loot info submissions reward FR points
    • FRP are used to buy cosmetics and titles
    • FRP are universal across the faction, but each race of NPCs has their own cosmetic set, so players are free to choose what to buy
    • Mayors can choose what race their FR NPC will have
    • players have fauna books (potentially purchasable and updatable at the FR NPC)
    • any player can talk to a FR NPC in a node and learn what mobs are in the node's ZOI and what kind of loot they have (and if they're missing info about any loot)
    • first loot info submissions (i.e. when the NPCs have no info on the loot of a mob) give a certain amount of FRP, based on the rarity of the item info submitted
    • repetitive submissions (i.e. when the NPC already has the info that the player wants to submit) give 1/4 the points (or some other amount that's lower than the first submition, subject to testing and all that)

    I feel that a system like this would achieve several goals. Frontier exploration is rewarded. Knowledge power still exists (cause frontier explorers might not want to give loot info to the npc). Completionists have a HUGE goal to work towards (i.e. filling out the fauna book), and have a direct reward for reaching it. The community as a whole get an in-game tool for knowing loot tables. If Intrepid somehow manage to prevent datamining - this would be an awesome way to let people know that mobs received new loot in the recent update (cause books would have new missing info).

    So what do yall think about smth like this?
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    yeah i want the info to be published by intrepid so I know what to farm ;3
  • You could implement an “ecology” or “monsterology” book as an interactive feature in the game. As players encounter different monsters or collect valuable items, they progressively unlock entries in this book. The entries would start out vague, only providing basic information, and as players engage more with each creature or item—whether by defeating monsters, observing them in their natural habitats, or discovering related artifacts—additional details and lore would unfold. This would maintain the element of discovery and mystery, as players would learn more naturally through gameplay rather than relying on external guides.

    To deepen the experience, this system could be linked with specific adventurer paths, such as hunters, researchers, or gatherers, each gaining different insights depending on their specialization. Additionally, a crafting blueprint system could be integrated into this mechanic. As players uncover more information about specific materials or monster parts, they would unlock new crafting recipes, further encouraging exploration and experimentation. This approach would offer players a more immersive experience, combining the thrill of discovery with the practicality of progression.
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 6
    Noaani wrote: »
    Zehlan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am of the opinion that since players will work this kind of thing out, there is no point in Intrepid hiding it.

    I agree but would be more interesting i think if everyone had to figure it out, would make the journey a little more mysterious and slow the amount of rare gear etc that would pop up in the beginning.

    I don't personally consider decoding game systems to be a good source of mystery.

    To me, that is what a games lore should provide.

    I don't know how you went from everyone having to figure it out to everyone decoding/hacking game code? As players play the game they would learn and create their own database creating a game player guide that evolves as people adventure. I think @Pendragxn hit the mark exactly.

    Pendragxn wrote: »
    You could implement an “ecology” or “monsterology” book as an interactive feature in the game. As players encounter different monsters or collect valuable items, they progressively unlock entries in this book. The entries would start out vague, only providing basic information, and as players engage more with each creature or item—whether by defeating monsters, observing them in their natural habitats, or discovering related artifacts—additional details and lore would unfold. This would maintain the element of discovery and mystery, as players would learn more naturally through gameplay rather than relying on external guides.

    To deepen the experience, this system could be linked with specific adventurer paths, such as hunters, researchers, or gatherers, each gaining different insights depending on their specialization. Additionally, a crafting blueprint system could be integrated into this mechanic. As players uncover more information about specific materials or monster parts, they would unlock new crafting recipes, further encouraging exploration and experimentation. This approach would offer players a more immersive experience, combining the thrill of discovery with the practicality of progression.

  • StewBadStewBad Member, Alpha Two
    A shower thought!

    What about a system like this:
    • there's an NPC faction of "fauna researchers"
    • FR have representatives of all in-game races
    • FR know how many unique drops a mob has, but that info is hidden
    • the info can be uncovered if a player who has looted (or was in a party that looted) an item on the loot list and then submitted that information to the FR
    • loot info submissions reward FR points
    • FRP are used to buy cosmetics and titles
    • FRP are universal across the faction, but each race of NPCs has their own cosmetic set, so players are free to choose what to buy
    • Mayors can choose what race their FR NPC will have
    • players have fauna books (potentially purchasable and updatable at the FR NPC)
    • any player can talk to a FR NPC in a node and learn what mobs are in the node's ZOI and what kind of loot they have (and if they're missing info about any loot)
    • first loot info submissions (i.e. when the NPCs have no info on the loot of a mob) give a certain amount of FRP, based on the rarity of the item info submitted
    • repetitive submissions (i.e. when the NPC already has the info that the player wants to submit) give 1/4 the points (or some other amount that's lower than the first submition, subject to testing and all that)

    I feel that a system like this would achieve several goals. Frontier exploration is rewarded. Knowledge power still exists (cause frontier explorers might not want to give loot info to the npc). Completionists have a HUGE goal to work towards (i.e. filling out the fauna book), and have a direct reward for reaching it. The community as a whole get an in-game tool for knowing loot tables. If Intrepid somehow manage to prevent datamining - this would be an awesome way to let people know that mobs received new loot in the recent update (cause books would have new missing info).

    So what do yall think about smth like this?

    Love this idea!

    What do you think about there being thresholds for unlocking certain amounts(?) of detail?

    Example:

    You have achieved 100 FRP from the Kaelar FR and wish to unlock cosmetics from Vek FR, you would only be able to unlock 75 FRP worth of detail from the Vek since everything you've unlocked thus far was from Kaelar.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    StewBad wrote: »
    You have achieved 100 FRP from the Kaelar FR and wish to unlock cosmetics from Vek FR, you would only be able to unlock 75 FRP worth of detail from the Vek since everything you've unlocked thus far was from Kaelar.
    Could definitely be something to test and see what people think about it. We already have precedent for something similar with professions, so it's not like this kind of mechanic would be alien to the game.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    preference is unpublished
  • This Project will be data mined to hell and back before any release. At least that is my opinion. So the hiding of anything is off the table.
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    abc0815 wrote: »
    This Project will be data mined to hell and back before any release. At least that is my opinion. So the hiding of anything is off the table.

    You can datamine quite a bit of info … but if drop rate info is coded correctly it’s not included.

    Personally, I’m OK either way whether it’s disclosed info or not.

    But, Intrepid can keep it undisclosed if they wish … and let players be in charge of testing sample sizes.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Zehlan wrote: »
    I don't know how you went from everyone having to figure it out to everyone decoding/hacking game code? As players play the game they would learn and create their own database creating a game player guide that evolves as people adventure.
    I don't know why you assumed "decode" meant hacking, or anything to do with game code.

    The primary definition of the word "decode" is to convert a coded or unintelligible message in to an intelligible one. To take something not easily understood and make it more easily understood. One of the ways a message can be unintelligible is by individual people only having access to a small portion of it.

    Taking information from many players in regards to drop rates and collating them in to a single, easy to understand drop tabe is decoding that drop table. It is taking the small view that many people have that is incomplete and thus unintelligible, and decoding it in to a larger, more complete picture.
  • ZehlanZehlan Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Zehlan wrote: »
    I don't know how you went from everyone having to figure it out to everyone decoding/hacking game code? As players play the game they would learn and create their own database creating a game player guide that evolves as people adventure.
    I don't know why you assumed "decode" meant hacking, or anything to do with game code.

    The primary definition of the word "decode" is to convert a coded or unintelligible message in to an intelligible one. To take something not easily understood and make it more easily understood. One of the ways a message can be unintelligible is by individual people only having access to a small portion of it.

    Taking information from many players in regards to drop rates and collating them in to a single, easy to understand drop tabe is decoding that drop table. It is taking the small view that many people have that is incomplete and thus unintelligible, and decoding it in to a larger, more complete picture.

    When I hear "decode the game system" my first thought is decoding a computer game's code. Interesting perspective though but I would say it is documentation and analyzing but whatever.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    abc0815 wrote: »
    This Project will be data mined to hell and back before any release. At least that is my opinion. So the hiding of anything is off the table.

    Impossible to datamine info that's kept server side and is likely dynamically generated.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 7
    Noaani wrote: »
    Taking information from many players in regards to drop rates and collating them in to a single, easy to understand drop tabe is decoding that drop table. It is taking the small view that many people have that is incomplete and thus unintelligible, and decoding it in to a larger, more complete picture.

    Yes, collecting sample data en masse and having a probability matrix is a good method... but might fail due to factors such as node level adjacenties, weather, season and other predicates. As a result it might vary from server to server, so it likely won't ever be truly known.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Taking information from many players in regards to drop rates and collating them in to a single, easy to understand drop tabe is decoding that drop table. It is taking the small view that many people have that is incomplete and thus unintelligible, and decoding it in to a larger, more complete picture.

    Yes, collecting sample data en masse and having a probability matrix is a good method... but might fail due to factors such as node level adjacenties, weather, season and other predicates. As a result it might vary from server to server, so it likely won't ever be truly known.

    This is all possible, but unlikely.

    If you are collating data from many players, their server is a key piece of information. So is the time.

    WIth that, it won't be hard to break this data down in to node state, if that proves to be needed.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you are collating data from many players, their server is a key piece of information. So is the time.

    WIth that, it won't be hard to break this data down in to node state, if that proves to be needed.

    The big challenge would be accurately collecting data from that many players without addons (ie - they will probly have to fill out some kind of form)
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Public API so we have an Ashes version of wowhead. I like the idea of a server working together to open the API for a given realm using a scientific node.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you are collating data from many players, their server is a key piece of information. So is the time.

    WIth that, it won't be hard to break this data down in to node state, if that proves to be needed.

    The big challenge would be accurately collecting data from that many players without addons (ie - they will probly have to fill out some kind of form)

    I personally wouldn't have it be player submitted.

    I'd rather use screen detection if there is no way to have a text log file.
  • KevohlKevohl Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Thanks for the replies guys! I wonder what intrepid will do. At the end of the day, it wont change a lot. I like the idea of the community having to compile info, but I prefer how OSRS just has the exact 1/X chance for everything.
  • ShivaFangShivaFang Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I'd rather use screen detection if there is no way to have a text log file.

    You are suggesting a third party add-on, which likely won't be allowed in the ToS.
  • mxomxo Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Kevohl wrote: »
    I personally like seeing detailed drop tables provided by the devs. I like when the game (or wiki) shows me the exact chance to get that item I'm after. I also like grinding a mob to 'complete' the drop table and see how far over or under rate I am.
    Same here. I want to know exactly where to invest my rare free time.

    Its trivial information that can easily be provided from intrepid themselves as online database and whoever doesnt want to get informed just shouldnt slice and dice through that data base. Delegation to fans is not needed, but will be done sooner or later if it will not be provided from the developer itself. Thinking of wowhead, for instance (depening on allowance in terms of the API). Thats just incredible meaningful. Just dont make trivial things more complicated, there is really no need for that. The game already has more than enough to think about and care of. This is just a loot table. So only show us to which % the Emberblade from Firebrand drops. 1,2%? Perfect. Thanks. Cindersinger 0,8%. Ok, cool.

  • FlankerFlanker Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am of the opinion that since players will work this kind of thing out, there is no point in Intrepid hiding it.
    I share the same opinion with this gentleman

    There is only one thing that I hope Intrepid will never do when it comes to drop tables which is this...


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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    ShivaFang wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I'd rather use screen detection if there is no way to have a text log file.

    You are suggesting a third party add-on, which likely won't be allowed in the ToS.

    No, just OBS.

    I don't see Intrpid making OBS against the ToS.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Or perhaps some setup to keep the drop rate dynamic relative to node condition or equivalent!
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