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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Why I fear PvE min/max culture for this game...
ekeefe41
Member, Alpha Two
With a PVX game like this, my fear is the min/max folks are going to figure out the optimal way to do things and then everyone will just follow suit and no one has conflict.
We need conflict and to fight over resources in a way to where folks will want to engage in PvP, otherwise folks will min/max their way to no fun land. Also how to we make it so massive guilds do not simply take over anything, then there is just no room for conflict if the same guild controls everything.
This goes to one of the things i already find concerning. Caravan's... The pop up that gives random people the ability to defend a caravan should be disabled. The fast majority of folks that are solo, or in a small party are simply going to sign up to defend, and no one will fight over the resources.
The only pop-up that should happen is an alert that you are going to be flagged for pvp if you stay in range of the caravan... that's it.
Anyway, i know it is a very difficult needle to thread, making a system fun enough people want to do it, yet don't make the path to optimal a one way street, because everyone will follow it.
We need conflict and to fight over resources in a way to where folks will want to engage in PvP, otherwise folks will min/max their way to no fun land. Also how to we make it so massive guilds do not simply take over anything, then there is just no room for conflict if the same guild controls everything.
This goes to one of the things i already find concerning. Caravan's... The pop up that gives random people the ability to defend a caravan should be disabled. The fast majority of folks that are solo, or in a small party are simply going to sign up to defend, and no one will fight over the resources.
The only pop-up that should happen is an alert that you are going to be flagged for pvp if you stay in range of the caravan... that's it.
Anyway, i know it is a very difficult needle to thread, making a system fun enough people want to do it, yet don't make the path to optimal a one way street, because everyone will follow it.
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Comments
If there is a single optimal path to something, everyone will follow it. You don't need to be a min/maxer, nor a PvE player to do so. In fact, min/maxers are the people most likely to NOT follow that one path, because they often min/max for a slightly different goal than the bulk of players.
Or are you saying PvP players don't like to be as good as they can be?
I mean, I get your over all concern, but it is the group of players you have placed your crosshairs on that is just wrong.
I get people will always try to min/max their character, my fear is that with everyone doing what is best for themself, they will in fact create political/node systems that are not set up for conflict.
Think of AV in WoW, no one does PvP, they rush to objectives that feed them honor as fast as possible with minimal effort.
There are game theory papers written on this effect
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
If you would rather listen to someone explain it, you can watch this video, it is in the context of social media, but it is game theory.
Some of the inspirations for this game came from Archage, and in Archage the game could be broken down in a very simple way:
Labor=gold (labor was a resource you gained over time, more if you were logged in)
Gold=opportunity to upgrade gear
So one great way to get more gold, was to take it from other people.
A person would use labor to create a trade pack, then move it to a location that gave more gold as a turn in.
If you just killed them and took it, you had more gold, and more chances at gear.
Now AA was ruined because they added a feature where you could just buy labor pots... and so the game was P2W, you could just chuck labor pots and do gold making activities.
My question is, what systems are in place that will drive conflict and not make this game devolve in to a PvE utopia where people min/max their way to the best gear?
If peace is more profitable, then peace we shall have.
If the game was a PvP game, then the devs would make constant effort to make people fight. A PvX game has no reason to do this, whatever incentive works for the playerbase, works.
This is the core point I will adress: There is no homogenous "best" for everyone. The systems are designed in a way that the 'best' interests of player will not align with one another and cause conflict.
Example would be
Other examples that fuel conflict would be:
So min/maxing will be a thing for sure but I don't see how that would lead to PvP dying down. At least not yet and based on the system design as I have seen it.
Many systems are in place to ensure conflict.
What does min/max have to do with the drivel you posted, or did it just sound nice, so you stuck it in?
Min/Max is about finding the optimal path and being as efficient as possible in getting best gear. I thought i made that obvious in my post.
In the best way to become powerful is 1 mega guild and it's sister guilds control the entire server, that may become the norm.. Hence no conflict.
Did you read what I wrote? Or are you just being an edgelord?
So what does PvE have to do with the drivel you posted, or did it just sound nice, so you stuck it in?
You dont get it. You answered your own question, but you still dont see it.
Having optimal place to grind exp means that there will be tons of groups aiming to farm that spot, and only 1 of them will prevail (since if you split the spot then your exp gained will be halved). So you will see great number of PVP there. So when a lot of those groups give up on the top spot after losing in the PVP, they will go to other good spots, where again will have a lot PVP (less, but still will have). And this will repeat till only the least wanted farm spots are left where you can farm without pvp.
Also why would some randoms defend your caravan? (you even said "majority"). Like what you get by defending some random caravan? Coz if you attack it you can win the loot.
And about the mega guilds - A place may be optimal for exp, but this doesnt mean that it can support 100+ players. Like the more players you bring the less exp each of them will be getting per minute. So if a zerg guild bring 500 players to the best farm location, they will be getting less exp than 20 man farming average exp location.
However, I think finding it is going to be almost impossible. First of all, even if we assume that no content is randomized, not even the mobs that populate dungeons, or the high level mats they drop for gear/relics; those raids/lawless zones/world bosses/dungeons/mobs/loot are only going to be revealed if the nodes are developed to the maximum level, and possibly the right story arcs are triggered.
You may think you have the best in slot gear, but really the recipe for the best in slot gear may be crafted from an item/recipe that drops from a religious node dungeon, and the node that drops it, is (on your realm) is a vassal node trapped at level3, and in any case it requires a specific religion at that node which never got started. That is one example, but repeat that for things that drop from POIs requiring a certain combination of events from all adjacent Nodes, and a crafter that has specialized into just the right niche, possibly even needing an RNG roll when creating the item, and it may be that not even Intrepid can tell you what the BiS item is for a given slot/class/role, or the optimal path trough the game, on any one server.
People have to understand that this is not a theme-park game, the available content is neither known, nor static. Theory is fine, but practice may be entirely different.
2. There is over 7000 augments planed
Go ahead and try and min max that lol
Yep you dont. And yes there will be in the future, but it will be only for yourself. You wont be able to measure other players dps
There are four statements in this post.
One of them is correct, three of them are incorrect.
Calculating other players dps is not dependent on the tool, but on the game design.
The tool just calculates PUBLIC information of players dmg on the target, and converts it to dps and structures it so you can see. For this to work you need to have access what dmg the other player does with each attack.
This means its possible to calculate dps of other if he attacks you. But if you cant access info of him attacking a mob for example. then it wont work
Yes, my combat tracker needs to know the combat figures of any player in order to track those figures.
This is correct.
so you track some average dps trough the target gear/talents and what spells he use?
Disregarding if it is a critical hit? or if the dmg was blocked by shield or doing min/max dmg and any of these?
Guess you could calculate some dps that has nothing to do with the real dps the target does.
Also you can easily get caught by Intrepid and get yourself banned.
Not if they're non-combatant
Just because someone feels the need to make spread sheets for their char. Does not mean everyone will. Myself, I hope Steven makes using tools like that will be bandable offense. Even if they don't take action on it. It will keep the use of them on the down low.
The people wanting to be the best they can will.
Everyone else won't.
There will always be conflict. Mega guilds are always plagued with disagreements... internal fighting and betrayals for interests are nothing new.
The best PVP is the one the players make up.
And to your other point, min/maxing will always exist, It's 2024. The only option to avoid it is playing single player games.
Both need to be attractive, if People understand what i mean.
There should be Advantages to being a peaceful Node -> and some Advantages to being a belligerent Node which loves to sometimes knock the other Nodes a hearty Beating right over their Heads.
And Yes. I have absolutely no Idea right now what the Option/"Reward" for the latter would be.
I am confident Sir Steven and the remaining Team have already thought about what could make both Options being attractive.
For Example Armor/Clothing-Cosmetics for both a very peaceful way of living for a long time, or for living long, loooooonnnng through Times of War.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
I will attack you on sight out in the world if I’m farming or grinding. Regardless of consequence, or your color. Better roll deep in a Zerg ball. Going into the world, IS being combatant.
Peace? This is a pvp game, not some weird, “fantasy kingdom simulator”. I’ll play this while it lasts, but if they keep trying to find the middle ground between pvp and pve (ers), the game will fail like all the others. To keep the pve’ers you eventually will have to coddle them to the point that pvp is basically purely consensual, and then you lose all the pvpers.