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Change the artsyle before it's too late!

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Comments

  • KassianKassian Member, Alpha Two
    I would say the art style is fine for what the game is right now, an alpha. But I do agree it does have a somewhat generic feel at the moment.

    I can wait for them to add their own style onto the game so when you log in, you are like "Yes, this is Ashes"
  • KalnazzarKalnazzar Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 3
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I’ve been following Ashes of Creation for years, and as someone who’s played MMOs my whole life, I’m really excited about the mechanics and systems they’ve promised. But… it’s ugly. When I first saw the concept art and heard Steven’s promise that the game would look nearly identical to it, I was excited. The early artwork was full of life, creativity, and potential. Too bad he lied about that. People aren’t going to spend hundreds of hours and dollars on a game that looks this uninspired. At least, not enough people to make the game last in the long run.
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    Ashes of Creation already feels outdated with its attempt at ‘realistic’ art. It’s not even good realism. :# It looks like a collection of generic fantasy assets. With several more years of development ahead, it’s only going to look worse by release if it stays on this path. Realism always ages quickly, leaving games looking unimmersive and boring. Shifting to a stylized art style now would give Ashes the personality and charm it needs to stay relevant for years. If they don’t pivot soon, the game risks getting lost in the sea of other fantasy games, struggling to attract and maintain the loyal audience that MMOs need to thrive.

    Honestly, every game you mentioned just doesn’t appeal to me. I’ve never been into the cartoonish style of games like Fortnite, Minecraft, or even early WoW—which, in my opinion, felt aimed at a younger audience. At least WoW has made some efforts to mature its style over time. I like AoC Art Style.
  • JaymaJayma Member, Alpha Two
    I think it's already too late to make a 180 on art style. Yes the game as probably still some years in oven, but probably not enough to redo all assets.
    Improving model, animation or visual effect should be possible.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Kalnazzar wrote: »
    Honestly, every game you mentioned just doesn’t appeal to me. I’ve never been into the cartoonish style of games like Fortnite, Minecraft, or even early WoW—which, in my opinion, felt aimed at a younger audience. At least WoW has made some efforts to mature its style over time. I like AoC Art Style.

    Yeah, it was the cartoony graphics that put me off WoW. I'm sure it was a good game, but it just didn't interest me at all.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Iridianny wrote: »
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    In this regard, you are absolutely correct.

    The question with that is - does Intrepid want the kind of audience that games with this stylized art style attracts?

    The population of those games you listed - none of them would do well in Ashes. Either they will come for the art style and leave because the game isn't for them, or they will come for the art style and Intrepid will change the game to better suit them.

    Neither is a good result.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    In this regard, you are absolutely correct.

    The question with that is - does Intrepid want the kind of audience that games with this stylized art style attracts?

    The population you are referring to is the majority of the mmo genre player base. Do they want that audience? They better if they want their mmo to be long lasting and make money.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    The population of those games you listed - none of them would do well in Ashes. Either they will come for the art style and leave because the game isn't for them, or they will come for the art style and Intrepid will change the game to better suit them.

    Neither is a good result.

    Also, this is based on no evidence. Where is the data that liking a particular art style is linked to any preference of gameplay mechanics in an mmo?
    More people will be attracted to a original, unique, stylized art style and maybe more people will come to play because of it, but that is absolutely a good result. I can guarantee Intrepid wants a large player base and lots of people to come play the game, even if they don't end up staying.
    This idea that they will change the game for those people is a strange assumption... and kinda has gatekeeping vibes. This could happen regardless of the art style and there is nothing you can do about it.
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited November 5
    There are other ways to identify a game other than the artstyle.

    Plus, even with a "generic" or "realistic" look, if it is high enough of quality then it can still stand out. Just look at the original ranger showcase and the seasons showcase, those are some of the best looking graphics i've ever seen in a game and I would be able to tell right away it is Ashes by watching those. If the rest of the game looks that good when it finished I don't think the artstyle will be an issue.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    In this regard, you are absolutely correct.

    The question with that is - does Intrepid want the kind of audience that games with this stylized art style attracts?

    The population you are referring to is the majority of the mmo genre player base. Do they want that audience? They better if they want their mmo to be long lasting and make money.

    Steven has indeed said that the average WoW player is unlikely to enjoy Ashes.
    More people will be attracted to a original, unique, stylized art style and maybe more people will come to play because of it, but that is absolutely a good result.
    No, it really isn't.

    If the game attracts a large number of people that came for the art, but then left because the game itself isn't what they want to play, that just means servers die faster. In an MMORPG, this often ends up in a death spiral of population - I also can't imagine it being overly good publicity for Intrepid to look at server mergers within 3 months of launch.

    The players that the game attracts need to be the kind of players that are there for the game systems, not that are there for the art style.
    This idea that they will change the game for those people is a strange assumption... and kinda has gatekeeping vibes. This could happen regardless of the art style and there is nothing you can do about it.
    There is nothing at all gatekeeping about this. I am in no place to stop you discussing what you think - and if I am in no place to stop you, then gatekeeping is literally not a term that can be applied to anything I do.

    However, claiming others are gatekeeping when they are clearly no is a form of gatekeeping by proxy. You said it because you mistakenly thought that you claiming gatekeeping may stop me commenting as I see fit - which would be using social norms as a means of gatekeeping.

    Claims of gatekeeping where there is actually none are just a joke.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited November 5
    There is nothing at all gatekeeping about this. I am in no place to stop you discussing what you think - and if I am in no place to stop you, then gatekeeping is literally not a term that can be applied to anything I do.

    However, claiming others are gatekeeping when they are clearly no is a form of gatekeeping by proxy. You said it because you mistakenly thought that you claiming gatekeeping may stop me commenting as I see fit - which would be using social norms as a means of gatekeeping.
    I agree thoroughly with the rest of your comment, and I hope this comment won't distract Iridianny from responding to what you said, but gatekeeping - at least the way it's used online - doesn't mean preventing discussion. It just means insisting on requirements defining a group or category, and ostracising those who don't fulfil those requirements from calling themselves part of that group. You could be gatekeeping without ever telling someone not to talk about something. Just telling him he's not the target audience that's meant to enjoy the game is technically gatekeeping - though it's a productive kind of gatekeeping.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • BlipBlip Member, Alpha Two
    Hinotori wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Caww wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    .....Too bad he lied about that......
    Really? You can have an opinion that AoC has not met your expectations but you lose credibility casting dispersion's on others.

    He said it would be nearly identical to concept art, and then it's not even close. He doesn't even address it and say 'it will look more like my promise later,' or 'we changed our mind on that promise.' So not sure what else to call it.

    He means in regards to content. Not the actual visual style.... look at these, id say theyre almost bang on their concept.

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    Anyone found these in game yet?😄
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    At the end of the day, Whatever Steven thinks looks cool AF is what remains...

    He's got the bankroll to make whatever he wants.

    So you either accept the game for what it is and enjoy it or stay on the gaslight station to lame town...

    Should I add "gatekeeping" to my comment to sound more important?

    Like at what point did you look at the last 7 years or so of development with concept art and open studio development and think ...I'll join that games forum and piss in its cornflakes bowl because it needs to look like something else even though it had 1 of the most successful kick starter campaigns..let alone this is Alpha 2 playtesting and for what its worth the game looks fantastic for a rough cut on graphics fidelity...

    Like how else would you make the human race look different while killing giant flowers, mushrooms, ogres and dragons my guy?
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Should I add "gatekeeping" to my comment to sound more important?

    That sounds like it might be the sensible and gatekeepingy thing to do. I mean, who wouldn't want to increase their gatekeepingism? I imagine there's a whole scale of gatekeepingificationnessism.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    the monthly sub. will be the prime gatekeeping mechanism for most players
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There are a lot of MMO with stylized graphics that flopped or never survived...Wildstar and Everquest Next for example.

    If the gatekeeping gate had hinges it would be Unreal Engine 5.

    When I look around ingame It's clearly not photo realistic nor is it Disney/Pixar.

    So I would Like to think its somewhere between Conan, Willow, (Terry Gilliam Films) <-> Never ending Story/Dark Crystal (classic Jim Henson)

    In other words Classic Western Dark Fantasy...

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I’ve been following Ashes of Creation for years, and as someone who’s played MMOs my whole life, I’m really excited about the mechanics and systems they’ve promised. But… it’s ugly. When I first saw the concept art and heard Steven’s promise that the game would look nearly identical to it, I was excited. The early artwork was full of life, creativity, and potential. Too bad he lied about that. People aren’t going to spend hundreds of hours and dollars on a game that looks this uninspired. At least, not enough people to make the game last in the long run.
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    Ashes of Creation already feels outdated with its attempt at ‘realistic’ art. It’s not even good realism. :# It looks like a collection of generic fantasy assets. With several more years of development ahead, it’s only going to look worse by release if it stays on this path. Realism always ages quickly, leaving games looking unimmersive and boring. Shifting to a stylized art style now would give Ashes the personality and charm it needs to stay relevant for years. If they don’t pivot soon, the game risks getting lost in the sea of other fantasy games, struggling to attract and maintain the loyal audience that MMOs need to thrive.

    While it's obviously sad that not everyone will get that perfect blend of 'systems they like' and 'visuals they like' in the MMO genre, there's nothing wrong with the Ashes art style really. It's, as said above, more or less classic 'Western' fantasy style, with all the bumps, grit, and wrinkles you'd expect from that art space.

    If we look back at the Character Creator 'pitch' stream (I don't know what else to call these, besides 'advertisements' or 'concept art' but neither of those makes sense) we see an amazing and vibrant design language that could absolutely stand up for a long time, if they can deliver on it.

    The 'sea of other fantasy games' isn't going to matter much more than it did during the late '10s when things were visually homogenizing for a bit.

    And if it really bothers you that much, just wait longer. MMOs are probably having the start of their 'revival', where devs are coming together and paying attention to learning all the little arts and 'how to step around this pitfall of the genre' moments from the past.

    There are other, more 'generic' parts of AoC that probably deserve more attention than its current visuals, and we know the Art and Design teams communicate well enough to work their way there, provided they have the talent to realize their 'design concept art' (I'll accept whatever name anyone wants to slap on this... you know what I mean if you've seen the character creator stream).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • CarlisleCarlisle Member, Alpha Two
    I believe the problem is'nt the map/world appearence, the characters make the game ugly, they have not enough saturation and nothing to catch the eye of the player. Usually in mmos the player look to the screen and the most appealing thing is his own character, at the moment the character is hiding in the screen in a ugly and weird way. hopefully they bring more appealing visual for the player in a near future
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    The most successful games of all time are stylized — World of Warcraft, Minecraft, Breath of the Wild, Fortnite... These games stand out because their unique art styles give them character and make them recognizable.
    In this regard, you are absolutely correct.

    The question with that is - does Intrepid want the kind of audience that games with this stylized art style attracts?

    The population you are referring to is the majority of the mmo genre player base. Do they want that audience? They better if they want their mmo to be long lasting and make money.

    Hell no. Stop those wow FFXIV players from coming in here and demanding useless and baseless changes.

  • MardrikMardrik Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 12
    Aesthetics are not what is being tested and worked on right now. There is a long list that comes before that. I am a little worried sometimes about how many people seem not to understand the process at work here. What an alpha is about. Im glad I am getting a chance to do this though as I have been playing MMOs since EQ2 beta. There is an order to these things be patient. Come back later maybe, I dont mean that as an insult either. Honestly if it was super polished right now I would be extremely worried about priorities. That or it would mean we were not in fact helping them to make it as it would mean most things had been done and decided. Focus on the things they are asking you feedback about, as that is what is being done at the moment. That is what we are here for. Again I dont mean this as a condemnation of opinions. There will be a time for those about aesthetics later when that is the focus.
  • WhiskyWhisky Member, Alpha Two
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    northie wrote: »
    I personally absolutely hate WoW and Fortnite artstyle.

    Why going to an inferior Artstyle ? This Game has one of the newest Engines imaginable - has it not ?

    You don’t have to copy WoW to achieve great stylized art, and saying it’s inferior to realism is ignorant of the skill and artistry involved. Picasso started with realism before moving to more stylized work—but you rarely see his realistic pieces in galleries, nor would you likely recognize them as a Picasso. There are plenty of artists with unique, stylized approaches, and they each bring something distinctive. Which is what Ashes needs. Distinction. Moving toward stylization, rather than making yet another attempt at realism, makes sense because realism ages quickly.

    For MMOs, where longevity and player engagement are essential, the art style needs to be appealing to a majority of players. Whether or not you personally prefer it, WoW has proven itself as the most popular MMO ever, partly because of its distinct, stylized look. If Verra’s realistic approach doesn’t resonate with enough people, it could struggle to maintain a player base large enough to support an MMO. WoW's lasting success shows that stylization has broader appeal, and that’s a big reason it remains relevant and beloved by so many.

    Ummm no...WoW art appealed to children/younger people and was not as "scary" as other games at the time. exactly as Blizz designed it. It is simplistic and in no way ground breaking. By design.
  • TyranthraxusTyranthraxus Member, Alpha Two
    I feel like it looks fine - it just needs more polish.



  • ESO gw2 have an amazing art style you know you are playing those games when you log in, we don’t see that with ashes

    I think it’s too late everyone knows ue5 make generic games all look alike
  • ghostdog33ghostdog33 Member, Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    Usually in tests, these things are purposely toned down for the sake of the client. FFXIV years back before 1.0 released all looked like characters out of the sims, it was ugly as hell but when 1.0 launched it was a beautiful game, actually the graphics were probably the only good thing about the game.

    I believe this is the case of what is going on. In some mmos there are options to make everyone look the same so there are fewer assets to load. I havent read alpha notes, but it seems like they are focusing on server stuff at the moment. I play Star Citizen so thats a weird thing to say haha.
  • mainedutchmainedutch Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 12
    Graphics aren't even done and Im fine with where they are. They'll be improved. I like the simplicity.

    And anyway, gameplay > graphics 100%.
  • Mardrik wrote: »
    Aesthetics are not what is being tested and worked on right now. There is a long list that comes before that. I am a little worried sometimes about how many people seem not to understand the process at work here. What an alpha is about. Im glad I am getting a chance to do this though as I have been playing MMOs since EQ2 beta. There is an order to these things be patient. Come back later maybe, I dont mean that as an insult either. Honestly if it was super polished right now I would be extremely worried about priorities. That or it would mean we were not in fact helping them to make it as it would mean most things had been done and decided. Focus on the things they are asking you feedback about, as that is what is being done at the moment. That is what we are here for. Again I dont mean this as a condemnation of opinions. There will be a time for those about aesthetics later when that is the focus.

    The sooner they get input on visuals, the better. Why wait to change your artstyle until way later? That is the job of the artists. The artists are likely not working on gameplay mechanics.
  • Whisky wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    northie wrote: »
    I personally absolutely hate WoW and Fortnite artstyle.

    Why going to an inferior Artstyle ? This Game has one of the newest Engines imaginable - has it not ?

    You don’t have to copy WoW to achieve great stylized art, and saying it’s inferior to realism is ignorant of the skill and artistry involved. Picasso started with realism before moving to more stylized work—but you rarely see his realistic pieces in galleries, nor would you likely recognize them as a Picasso. There are plenty of artists with unique, stylized approaches, and they each bring something distinctive. Which is what Ashes needs. Distinction. Moving toward stylization, rather than making yet another attempt at realism, makes sense because realism ages quickly.

    For MMOs, where longevity and player engagement are essential, the art style needs to be appealing to a majority of players. Whether or not you personally prefer it, WoW has proven itself as the most popular MMO ever, partly because of its distinct, stylized look. If Verra’s realistic approach doesn’t resonate with enough people, it could struggle to maintain a player base large enough to support an MMO. WoW's lasting success shows that stylization has broader appeal, and that’s a big reason it remains relevant and beloved by so many.

    Ummm no...WoW art appealed to children/younger people and was not as "scary" as other games at the time. exactly as Blizz designed it. It is simplistic and in no way ground breaking. By design.

    Not as "scary"? Sure, I agree a lot of "realistic" attempting games get outdated really fast and have that creepy uncanny valley feeling. Like Ashes does.
    And to say it was just appealing to children is quite silly. People of all ages can and do enjoy that art style. Also, let's not forget that video games are in fact toys. :P
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 15
    ESO gw2 have an amazing art style you know you are playing those games when you log in, we don’t see that with ashes

    I think it’s too late everyone knows ue5 make generic games all look alike

    Are you suggestion Intrepid just switches game engine from the most modern game engine currently after updating from Unreal engine 4...because the game looks like it was made in the game engine they are using...? What alternative game engine do you recommend then? I think the issue is you don't like unreal engine...

    I would say Ashes of creation alpha looks better than ESO, even from a 1 map zone perspective.

    GW2 has its moments but its not a western dark fantasy game. Some areas are not that great and none of them have seasonal weather events. Its its own thing I appreciate it for what it is but I don't want to play another game that looks like it. also even if the graphics a zany colour pallets and eastern influenced it still looks like a DX9 game

    You have to look at the current state of Ashes alpha as a bare pizza base without any sauce or toppings.
    and in that respect its a good looking base.
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