Power Leveling [Feedback]

I'm not a fan of the current methods used to prevent power leveling. I understand why preventing power leveling is a concern, but I really feel like it could be done differently than the current direction.

At the moment, if I'm in a party of players all at my level or just 3 levels apart from one another the exp we get from mobs is pretty good. It's split up amongst us plus a little bonus it looks like to make partying feel 'worth it'. If one of these party members was replaced with a member 4 or so levels above me though, there is a pretty drastic drop in how much exp we gain. It could be the same number of party members but just the wider level difference is cutting our exp gains by over half sometimes.

I get why you'd want to prevent higher level and fully geared players from being able to just quickly level a brand new character quickly and easily, basically skipping all of the grind that had to be done originally. But I still feel like this could be done in a way that doesn't punish the lower leveled players in this party.

Ashes is geared towards being played while in a party, with certain party compositions being pretty important to have in most cases. If your party does not have a Cleric or Tank you're probably going to have a rough time in areas players at that level could reasonably grind in. I highly support this type of game play, it gives all the archetypes some actual usefulness to parties, but at the same time if I got a party of level 10 characters in my guild, and no one in my guild has a Cleric around level 10, that party is kind of screwed. Similarly, if I'm a level 20+ Tank and I see lower level groups in my guild could use a Tank, I still probably shouldn't help them as that'd cut into their exp.

All of the sudden I'm now put into a situation of having to gatekeep parties just based on levels as well as archetypes if I want to get any meaningful exp gains that night.

I'd much prefer a system where maybe I as a high level player could still join and help lower level parties grind. Personally I'd be completely happy accepting no exp for myself in that situation, as long as the low level players aren't getting punished for it.

Recently I've had others tell me that games like Ravendawn or ESO have some systems that allow higher leveled players to party with lower levels without hindering them by just lowering the higher level players stats to match their party's. Something like that sounds great to me as those players wouldn't really be getting power leveled by some overpowered character, and I'd still get to party with and help out the lower level/newer players I come across. I've never played those games so I'm not entirely sure what the downsides to a system like that are, all I know is I don't like the one Ashes has atm.

TLDR: Lower level players shouldn't be punished for partying with higher leveled ones, definitely not as drastically as they are at the moment. I'm not saying to let the low levels get much benefit from it either, power leveling is still something that should be avoided, but if there are just ways to nerf/debuff the higher level player without hindering the lower leveled ones that'd be great.

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Comments

Vhaeyne

I actually just solo and duo grinded most of this entire last weekend because I didn't want to deal with the change after experiencing it.

I would rather have a more consistent slower solo grind than dealing with the constant XP changes as people leave and join the party.

I can handle a rough grind, but putting in the same amount of effort just to see the numbers drop feels wrong.

I also get incredibly suspicious of how level differences may change drop rates. If I am seeing low XP I think it's going to be worse drops.

Feels bad.

I don't really want things to be easier by any means. I just want fair rewards for effort.

Xeeg

Tenguru wrote: »

I'd much prefer a system where maybe I as a high level player could still join and help lower level parties grind. Personally I'd be completely happy accepting no exp for myself in that situation, as long as the low level players aren't getting punished for it.

I mean this is the definition of power leveling. Its not for the high level to get exp, its for the low level.

Fortunately/unfortunately part of the core game systems have been designed around NOT level scaling players and monsters so that you can party together like in modern MMOs.

Maybe this will change, as the exact problems you are stating are the reasons that most MMOs have some form of level scaling. Otherwise you cant play with your friends if they grinded for a weekend and you went to a wedding. After that point you are on your own, or they have to purposefully not level until you catch up.

The other problem is that a few months into launch the new player experience is going to be alot tougher. How many groups still grinding Church or Highwaymen? OR are the nodes so jacked in levels that the Church groups are now level 40? Then where do the new players go, try and find a level 3 node or less in Verra to actually level up? Who else are they going to party with there?

There have been some loose suggestions about "mentoring" quests or things so that high level players can go help out low level players, but without scaling it seems to still amount to "power leveling".

Don't know if there is really any good solution to this problem, and its been a problem for 30 years in this genre. At some point you have to pick which category doesn't get what they want so that the game can be healthy in other aspects.

daveywavey

Tenguru wrote: »

TLDR: Lower level players shouldn't be punished for partying with higher leveled ones, definitely not as drastically as they are at the moment. I'm not saying to let the low levels get much benefit from it either, power leveling is still something that should be avoided, but if there are just ways to nerf/debuff the higher level player without hindering the lower leveled ones that'd be great.

Yeah, my PC wasn't good enough to join in straight away. Once my new one arrives, I'll be left by myself to try and boost as fast as possible to try and catch up to the increasing level of my friends that I want to play with.

Makes me wonder what the plan is for new people that want to join, say 6 months after launch once everybody's already levelled. Will they just have to play by themselves? Will they stay motivated to keep pushing through in order to be able to actually play with people?

SmileGurney

Horizontal player progression vs vertical always leads to those issues. Horizontal progression is pretty anti social, especially in a game designed around group content. This will result in pretty bad "late" new player experience, retention issues and the vast part of the world feeling "dead" after a while.

Smaashley

I agree this is a real problem. Lower level players shouldn't be penalized for grouping with higher levels. Honestly, there is a lot of ways Intrepid can arrange this in a way to make grouping with higher level players worth it without being a power leveling strategy.

First, they could make the approach that, if a lower level player party up with a higher level player, the higher level power is scaled down to match the area he's facing. Take note that Guild Wars 2 uses the same system and it works very fine because when you level up, you unlock more skills that lower levels don't have yet, so even if you're scaled down, you are a little bit more powerful than lower levels because you have access to certain skills that make your rotation more effective. Secondly, within that same idea, the lower level (which is grouped with higher levels) should not take any experience from monsters that are 5 levels higher than its current adventurer level.

Honestly it's simple to come with an idea that doesn't penalize lower level players.

Tenguru

Xeeg wrote: »

I mean this is the definition of power leveling. Its not for the high level to get exp, its for the low level.

Fortunately/unfortunately part of the core game systems have been designed around NOT level scaling players and monsters so that you can party together like in modern MMOs.

But I'm asking for the higher level player to be nerfed down to the lower level's power. That way you remove the benefit of them partying with someone at a higher level and they don't get left behind just cus they missed a weekend or something.

If I'm a geared level 24 and I join a level 8's party, just nerf my stats to match what a level 8's stats should be or something like that. It's not that I want them to have an easy grind, it's that I want to be able to grind with them too when they don't have others around their level.

If my irl friend decides to try the game later on, I'd have to make a brand new char just for us to play together, when I'm sure there are ways to make it so that I can play with them on my main without giving them the "power leveling" benefits.

Songcaller

No. Don't want scaling. If all high levels are reduced to the lowest level then pvp will suck. The old methods of alts alongside new players is more than adequate.

Smaashley

Songcaller wrote: »

No. Don't want scaling. If all high levels are reduced to the lowest level then pvp will suck. The old methods of alts alongside new players is more than adequate.

Nobody said anything about PvP. We're talking about the experience gained from monsters. It is clearly possible to reduce stats for PvE but not for PvP.

Crotchless

Tenguru wrote: »

TLDR: Lower level players shouldn't be punished for partying with higher leveled ones, definitely not as drastically as they are at the moment. I'm not saying to let the low levels get much benefit from it either, power leveling is still something that should be avoided, but if there are just ways to nerf/debuff the higher level player without hindering the lower leveled ones that'd be great.

i had this same concern, but a couple points to make first. i disagree that you should be able to speed up an underleveled player to have them catch up in anyway. that is the definition of powerleveling and AoC doesnt want that. you may, but the community doesnt.

second, the punishment for offset levels is fair to much with the new patch.

third, and most importantly, steven said in his recent interview with pirates that this was infact a bug, we are not meant to take that big of a penalty and it will be patched for the weekend(hopefully)

Personally, i say no XP dampening for any party members that are within 3-4 levels of each other. then after that apply a dampened XP gain for the LOW level players. because the fact is, the low level players are getting carried and shouldn't get more xp for doing content quicker than theyre intended to

Tenguru

Crotchless wrote: »

i disagree that you should be able to speed up an underleveled player to have them catch up in anyway. that is the definition of powerleveling and AoC doesnt want that.

I absolutely agree with this, which is why I'm asking for the higher level to be nerfed down to the lower level's power level. This way the lower level is not getting extra fast leveling, they're just getting normal leveling.

Basically if I'm a lvl 25, and I want to help my lvl 8 buddy grind, if I join his party, make me as strong as a lvl 8 would be. That way they aren't getting power leveled, they're just getting a normal speed grind for their level.

Dezemi

While I am not too happy with the change either, I realize its not as easy to resolve as in many PvE MMORPGs (such as GW2 or WoW) because of the PvP aspects.

IF you would scale everything down to the lowest level, then as Songcaller stated, PvP will suck. PvP communities will have to place very high benchmarks for PvP participants to not nerf themselves, ultimately making PvP harder to access for the non-hardcore crowd. Which obviously does not seem right.

But at the same time, we (my small alpha 2 community) have the issue that some of us like to play solo while some just want to tag along every now and then. With the current system, these people investing less time will simply not have a place after a very short while; they'll fall further and further behind and being gate-kept from playing with friends will definitely lead to them quitting. (Obviously, the solution "just play solo" does not work for some people, especially people with busy schedules :] )

Githal

High level players should not be given reasons to be in a low level farming areas.
If you want to play with your lower level friend you can make an alt character.

Vhaeyne

If they really wanted to entertain the idea of party scaling. I would encourage them to do it the FFXI way over the WOW way.

The basic concept in FFXI is that when you "sync" your party. You pick a member. In the case of what Tenguru said the level 25 would pick the level 8 as the sync target. The game then essentially makes Tenguru temporary level 8. With level 8 gear, abilities, and XP gains. In every aspect Tenguru becomes level 8 temporary.

The reason why I would want this over the WOW way is because it would help to maintain the PvX nature of the game. You are accepting the risk of vulnerability for the reward of being able to help your friend.

There would also have to be timers on jumping in and out of sync to prevent abuse in PVP.

WOW sync method is kinda the opposite. The mobs just act as if you are on level and take and deal proportional damage as if you were the level of the mob. You get to be level 25 While fighting level 8 mobs. While I think the WOW system is less difficult to implement. It also means that a level 8 will be protected by a level 25. The integrity of low level pvp would be lost.

I am not really for any scaling. I would just like it to be around 10 levels for level range in groups. If they really want to try it. FFXIs method makes the most sense to me for Ashes.

Forgive me if my brief summary of these systems is not perfect.

Xeeg

Tenguru wrote: »

But I'm asking for the higher level player to be nerfed down to the lower level's power. That way you remove the benefit of them partying with someone at a higher level and they don't get left behind just cus they missed a weekend or something.

I see what you mean. Makes sense. With an opt-in function and some cooldown/use restrictions.

xenith_terrek

there was an mmo that did this where a high lvl could group with a low lvl group and choose to down lvl and everyone got xp/gear. thought that was a good system

KingHeadshotTV

Its going to be difficult to achieve but it almost seems like if you are in a party with a large level disparity you should only be allowed to attack and damage "blue mobs" or "greyed out mobs" for a percentage base of damage, almost like a mentor buff.
this way, you are not one shotting them, receiving xp or drops personally through this buff.
but you are still only hitting the average percentage base dmg of the lowest level party member within the party towards non-player targets.

However, this would effect the healing aspect of things as well, standalone healing should be fine imo. unless in an "instanced" dungeon

Ryliah

I don't like the idea of a level limit between party members where you get less exp when it is reached.
Imagine we have a limit of 3 levels and a party with a member at level 5 with 99% exp to the next level, one at level 2 with 0% exp and some members between. As soon as the level 5 player has his levelup he's 4 level above the level 2 player and the level 2 player gets less exp. How is that player supposed to catch up?

A forced downscale of the higher level players to the lowest player in the group has also it's problems. If the scaling is for everything there is no point in having lowlevel players in PVP events. But even if the scaling is only in PVE. What about a lowlever player farming with a highlevel player. Some midlevel players could attack lowlevel players for recources but not that team. There is no downside to having a highlevel player guard the lowlevel player from PVP attacks.

Getting less exp against monsters that are way above your level (when you are in a party with a way higher level player) doesn't solve the problem of the highlevel player easily killing monsters on the level of the lowlevel players.

Splitting the exp by actual contribution can have similar problems like the level limit.

I like the idea of an opt-in downscale with cooldowns combined with the level limit.
For example the groupleader can choose if it is ON or OFF. When it's ON all party member are automaticly downscaled to the highest level in the limit to the lowest level player. When toggled it needs some time bevor the level change applys and it is canceld if in fight. If OFF the players below the level limit to the higherst level player get less exp.
What do you think of that idea?

SloanEQ

Just increase the level spread and don't penalize the exp, but once that level spread difference is hit there is no exp gained at all. Make it 6 or 7 lvls instead of 3 or 4. No reason to not let somewhat higher lvl people group with somewhat lower level.

No scaling at all please, this isnt WoW or ESO or any other themepark mmo.

Tenguru

Ryliah wrote: »

A forced downscale of the higher level players to the lowest player in the group has also it's problems. If the scaling is for everything there is no point in having lowlevel players in PVP events. But even if the scaling is only in PVE. What about a lowlever player farming with a highlevel player. Some midlevel players could attack lowlevel players for recources but not that team. There is no downside to having a highlevel player guard the lowlevel player from PVP attacks.

So I'm really only concerned when it comes to the PvE part, as that's where I'd for example help my friend level up and progress to be able to eventually join me at higher level content. So I'm all for it only effecting PvE stuff.

And on your first point you mentioned what if a low level players joins higher levels to do higher level farming. That I'd argue would be power leveling, which I'm kind of trying my best to avoid here. If a lvl 10 joins a party of lvl 30s, and they go and try to do lvl 30 content, they should get wiped as if they were all lvl 10s in my opinion.

If all the high level player is doing is "guarding" the lower level from PKers, honestly I don't even think they should be partied up to begin with.

Ryliah wrote: »

I like the idea of an opt-in downscale with cooldowns combined with the level limit.
For example the groupleader can choose if it is ON or OFF. When it's ON all party member are automaticly downscaled to the highest level in the limit to the lowest level player. When toggled it needs some time bevor the level change applys and it is canceld if in fight. If OFF the players below the level limit to the higherst level player get less exp.
What do you think of that idea?

Absolutely happy to have lots of options and cooldowns or auto-off toggles and other things like that. Anything to make it simpler and easier for newer players to join a grinding party.

Flashfirez23

The change made to prevent power leveling just made the game way less social and fun. I’d argue that it was a step backwards overall. I feel like not being able to play with friends or guild members due to this arbitrary change. Is not worth going this extreme in trying to prevent power leveling. The gaps in player levels are only going to get larger and only being able to group up with player 3 levels apart from you is insane! This is promoting antisocial behavior that is corrosive to Ashes’ vision. There needs to be ways higher level players and lower level players can play together without being punished or else this game is going to have some serious problems.

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