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Why were exploiters not simply permanently banned?

2

Comments

  • GizbanGizban Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlessedCRS wrote: »
    I don’t see the reason of permanent banning of someone playing a game when it’s the alpha the whole point is to fix and find bugs. Exploiting or not the game is not really meant to be fully enjoyable yet this is not the full release. Nothing matters in this alpha but finding bugs and issues and even our accounts will be wiped starting phase two. So who actually cares if someone is exploiting a bug right now as long as it’s being dealt with in the upcoming phases and full release.

    Because abusing an exploit alters the intended progression of facets of the game that still need to be tested: resource availability, craftinging interdependency, node progression timing, and so forth.
  • Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    people are SUPPOSED to find exploits

    You're punching at shadows here my friend. No one said that finding (and even testing) the bug should get the players banned. Find it, test it and then report it, that's 100% fine. The issue is that after they did that (or didn't report it), they continued to abuse it by using it thousands of times. No one has an issue with people finding bugs, this is a made-up argument. If you can't see the difference between finding a bug and exploiting it, then I guess we don't have much to talk about.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The issue is pretty simple, if someone found the bug, then exploited it or didn't report it (or reported it and then continued to exploit it) they don't have any interest in helping make a quality game. In that situation, I say show them the door.

    While I understand why you may have thst position, it is not a great one to have.

    First, literally all that matters is that the bug doesn't make it to live. Everything else is meaningless.

    Second, with how early we are in the testing cycle, you and I are in no position to say whether thise thst found the bugs were going to report them or not. The notion of not exploring a bug when found is how you end up with games thst are full of bugs. You want your testers thst find bugs tonpick and prod at them, to get as much information on them as possible, and then to report thst information.

    Third, even if the intent was to never report this bug, people capable of finding rhem are still exponentially more valuable as testers than people that think, for example, an ewrly alpha test has an economy that needs to be considered.

    If developers know the people that find these bugs, they can easily just check up on those people periodically to observe what new bugs they have found. There is no specific need for them to be reported in order for Intrepid to be made aware of them.

    Banning people that have shown you that they are good at finding bugs, at a point in development where you want to find bugs, is bad for the game. People that think banning these people is the right thing to do clearly don't have any interest in making a quality game - they are clearly ok with testers (and by extention Intrepid) finding fewer bugs.

    Dude, this is a100% made up argument. In no way do I (or anyone else) think that people who find bugs should be banned. The issue isn't finding the bug, or even testing it and then reporting it. It's the continued use afterwards (players used it thousands of times) that's the issue.

    Also, you seem to think that 'early in the test cycle' is an excuse for exploiting and damaging concurrent testing. It's actually worse, no one is new to MMOs in this alpha, we all know what we're doing, and if we cross a line at this point then we've got no issues doing it going forward. These are not the kinda people you want in your game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The issue isn't finding the bug, or even testing it and then reporting it. It's the continued use afterwards (players used it thousands of times) that's the issue.

    Why is that an issue?

    The economy isn't important at this stage. No one is testing anything important with the economy at this stage. The most valuable testing done so far is load testing on the server, followed by finding this bug.

    The fact that they "exploited" it is meaningless. It is meaningless because they stood to gain nothing, and others stood to lose nothing - because the economy doesn't matter.

    You may well be right that these are not people you want in your game.

    However, they are EXACTLY the people you want in your test.

    Again, the people you don't want in your test are the people that treat it as a game - the kind of people that think it's an issue that the economy got messed up. These people have almost nothing of value to bring to a test.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The issue isn't finding the bug, or even testing it and then reporting it. It's the continued use afterwards (players used it thousands of times) that's the issue.

    Why is that an issue?

    The economy isn't important at this stage. No one is testing anything important with the economy at this stage. The most valuable testing done so far is load testing on the server, followed by finding this bug.

    The fact that they "exploited" it is meaningless. It is meaningless because they stood to gain nothing, and others stood to lose nothing - because the economy doesn't matter.

    You may well be right that these are not people you want in your game.

    However, they are EXACTLY the people you want in your test.

    Again, the people you don't want in your test are the people that treat it as a game - the kind of people that think it's an issue that the economy got messed up. These people have almost nothing of value to bring to a test.

    Last I checked you aren't intrepid? You don't think intrepid is gathering data? What about people submitting bug reports about not being able to find copper i.e. to save their life. meanwhile they go and look and see that 4,000 legendary copper was generated yesterday - must be working as intended :)
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The issue isn't finding the bug, or even testing it and then reporting it. It's the continued use afterwards (players used it thousands of times) that's the issue.

    Why is that an issue?

    The economy isn't important at this stage. No one is testing anything important with the economy at this stage. The most valuable testing done so far is load testing on the server, followed by finding this bug.

    The fact that they "exploited" it is meaningless. It is meaningless because they stood to gain nothing, and others stood to lose nothing - because the economy doesn't matter.

    You may well be right that these are not people you want in your game.

    However, they are EXACTLY the people you want in your test.

    Again, the people you don't want in your test are the people that treat it as a game - the kind of people that think it's an issue that the economy got messed up. These people have almost nothing of value to bring to a test.

    Last I checked you aren't intrepid? You don't think intrepid is gathering data?

    I do think Intrepid is gathering data. Mostly data relating to server performance.

    I also think the data on the exploit that they gathered will be of value to them.

    I do not think they have been gathering random data on the games economy at present, or at least nit data they care about.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    kadimir wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The issue isn't finding the bug, or even testing it and then reporting it. It's the continued use afterwards (players used it thousands of times) that's the issue.

    Why is that an issue?

    The economy isn't important at this stage. No one is testing anything important with the economy at this stage. The most valuable testing done so far is load testing on the server, followed by finding this bug.

    The fact that they "exploited" it is meaningless. It is meaningless because they stood to gain nothing, and others stood to lose nothing - because the economy doesn't matter.

    You may well be right that these are not people you want in your game.

    However, they are EXACTLY the people you want in your test.

    Again, the people you don't want in your test are the people that treat it as a game - the kind of people that think it's an issue that the economy got messed up. These people have almost nothing of value to bring to a test.

    Last I checked you aren't intrepid? You don't think intrepid is gathering data?

    I do think Intrepid is gathering data. Mostly data relating to server performance.

    I also think the data on the exploit that they gathered will be of value to them.

    I do not think they have been gathering random data on the games economy at present, or at least nit data they care about.

    The data was gathered by tons of players who didn't exploit the bug, who found it and then went back to playing. You're conflating two things have nothing to do with each other. The fact that you don't see a difference between finding a bug and actively exploiting it to the detriment of the server and game is wild. I guess you get the game you want then.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 24
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The data was gathered by tons of players who didn't exploit the bug
    I'm confused.

    I was asked if I thought Intrepid were gathering data, I said yes, on some specific things, and you come back saying that it was players gathering data.

    Which data are you talking about, data that Intrepid is gathering, or data that players are gathering?
    he fact that you don't see a difference between finding a bug and actively exploiting it to the detriment of the server and game is wild.
    The game isn't out yet, how can anything that has been done on a test server have a negative impact on the game?

    These people found a bug, that bug now won't be in the game when it is released. That is a benefit for the game, when the game is released. Keep in mind, we do not currently have a game right now, we have a test - a thing we are supposed to try and break.

    There is no data of value that players can gather from the test right now - but breaking something right now has value.

    You really do seem to think that we have a game now - that seems to be the cornerstone of your issue, it seems to be why you (and a few others) think this is an issue and many of the rest of us just don't. if players did this when the game was live, I'd agree on a full credit card, IP and MAC address ban (not much more you can do than that) - but this is a test environment that we are supposed to break.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    You asked me if I thought Intrepid were gatheringdata, I said yes, on some specific things, and you come back saying that it was players gathering data.

    Actually, nobody asked you if intrepid was gathering data, you just decided to give your opinion of what you think intrepid is doing, which is obviously incorrect. So any "asks" you might get are probably rhetorical.
    Noaani wrote: »
    There is no data of value that players can gather from the test right now

    You're absolutely out of your mind. Value is defined by usefulness, and all of the data they are gathering has use. Are you that brainless that everytime you run out of something in your fridge you drive to the store and by the 1 thing and drive home? No - you not only wait until there's a few things you need to pick up, but you might even wait for OTHER errands nearby the grocery store to maximize your trip.

    we don't have 3 months each phase to test each individual facet of the game 1 at a time, or all the memes would be true and the game will come out in 2084. If you can't figure out how to use the data then you have 0 use giving input on anything.
    Noaani wrote: »
    You really do seem to think that we have a game now - that seems to be the cornerstone of your issue, it seems to be why you (and a few others) think this is an issue and many of the rest of us just don't.

    what is all this "you" seem to think it's an issue? "rest of us dont"??? My friend obviously STEVEN SHARIFF HIMSELF has an issue because CLEARLY he actually knows what the hell is going on behind closed doors with HIS testing, thus he came up with a VERY different response to HIS problem that YOU dont think YOU have, because YOU aren't intrepid, and HE is. At this point, it's not up for debate on the importance of testing without exploiting - the actual stance from the developer not only CONFIRMS this; but pay attention to HOW they had to fix it. They could have just wiped the servers, but they went through by HAND and tried to remove/revert as much of the damage as they could to try to salvage the test environment. That is actually insane how much more effort and resources they had to spend undoing the damage the exploiters caused rather than just wiping the servers. Actions speak a lot louder than words, and right now your words aren't backed by reality - while the opposition is not only backed by reality, but the words of the team and the man in charge himself. At what point are you able to actually reflect and realize that everyone else isn't wrong, that maybe - just maybe it's you that is out of depth.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    Actually, nobody asked you if intrepid was gathering data
    I mean...
    kadimir wrote: »
    You don't think intrepid is gathering data?
    Rhetoric doesn't come across via text, so if you type out a given set of words, people have to assume you mean those words. If you mean words other than those you type, that really is on you, my dude.
    Value is defined by usefulness
    Indeed.

    And players gathering data now on a game where we are going to see almost nothing make it through to late beta testing - I'm comfortable saying players are not gathering useful data right now.

    In terms of the games economy (the only thing that matters in this situation), I am 100% certain that this is true.

    You are right that we don't have three months to test each aspect of the game - however, there is no point in testing things that aren't actually implemented yet. The economy is not yet implemented.

    You comment about actions speaking louder than words is an interesting one. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the point of discussion in this thread is in relation to the people that found a given bug, and the actions Intrepid took on them.

    Speaking of those actions, how many accounts were terminated?
    At what point are you able to actually reflect and realize that everyone else isn't wrong
    From what I can see, there are only you and the OP in this thread that have the opinion you have. I am in the somewhat unfamiliar territory of being in the majority opinion here.

  • Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The data was gathered by tons of players who didn't exploit the bug
    I'm confused.

    I was asked if I thought Intrepid were gathering data, I said yes, on some specific things, and you come back saying that it was players gathering data.

    Which data are you talking about, data that Intrepid is gathering, or data that players are gathering?

    [

    I can't believe I have to spell this out, but obviously both are happening at the same time. You seem to be stuck on this idea that because the game isn't finished no useful information can be gained, you said it a bunch of times. I guess I would ask then, what's the point of the testing? Do you think they're only interested in server stability (despite all the recent patch changes that have altered fundamental systems within the game)?

    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter. I would disagree as it's showing a very real problem in the community that is forming and creating problems where they don't need to be.

    However, after doing more reading and speaking to some people on the server which seems to have exploited the most, the genuine fear is that almost the whole server woulda been banned. All of a sudden, the push back makes a lot more sense, this isn't a philosophical disagreement anymore, in a lot of cases it's just self-preservation. Steven decided to slap them on the wrist and wag his finger at the exploiters, I think in the end it'll be something that the game development cycle will suffer from. Bummer.

  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    So too dense to understand rhetorical questions and now you think only myself and the OP have that opinion despite multiple threads about the incident with the majority being in favor of bans - combined with Stevfn himself writing his opinion both in word and in action.

    I've come to the conclusion that you can't read, can't understand social cues and you can't count.

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    So too dense to understand rhetorical questions
    I understand rhetoric just fine.

    I also understand the notion that it is not something that translates to text at all - so one could say I understand rhetoric better than you.

    The only two times rhetoric can be communicated as such in text is if the reader and writer are already familiar with each other (why it can work at times in a novel), or if the writer specifically denotes the text as rhetoric. Someone with an actual understanding of rhetoric would know these things.

    I mean, if I were to take everything that could seem to be rhetorical as being actually rhetorical, I'd assume most of your posts were. Asking, for example, if people that find exploits in an alpha test of a game should be excluded from that alpha comes across as rhetorical moreso than what you intended to be rhetoric.
  • LodrigLodrig Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    From what I can see, there are only you and the OP in this thread that have the opinion you have. I am in the somewhat unfamiliar territory of being in the majority opinion here.

    The majority of people are indeed Deep in Dunning-Kruger territory like you are. But the majority opinion on this subject has been for harsh punishment of dupers, maybe not to the level of a perma BAN, but ceratinaly no majority exists for ANY punishment less then what they got.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    From what I can see, there are only you and the OP in this thread that have the opinion you have. I am in the somewhat unfamiliar territory of being in the majority opinion here.

    The majority of people are indeed Deep in Dunning-Kruger territory like you are. But the majority opinion on this subject has been for harsh punishment of dupers, maybe not to the level of a perma BAN, but ceratinaly no majority exists for ANY punishment less then what they got.

    Sure.

    My point is that they are the kind of people a developer want in a test.

    They are still in this test.

    I have no opinion on punishment past that.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? Because until the product is out of test and into production it just doesn't matter? I'd disagree with that opinion, but at least it would be consistent.

    The bummer is, these players that are ok with exploiting the Alpha, will be find doing the same thing in the Beta(s) and then in finished product. When they're removed at that point and all the damage is done (unless you believe that the game will launch with no bugs or exploits) I guess we can revisit my opinion that getting rid of these types of players is better when you do it asap.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    First, literally all that matters is that the bug doesn't make it to live. Everything else is meaningless.
    Tell me you aren't a dev without telling me you aren't a dev.


    Noaani wrote: »
    Second, with how early we are in the testing cycle, you and I are in no position to say whether those that found the bugs were going to report them or not. The notion of not exploring a bug when found is how you end up with games that are full of bugs. You want your testers that find bugs to pick and prod at them, to get as much information on them as possible, and then to report thst information.
    The people that got banned didn't mere;y test the bug - that would have been fine.
    The people who got banned blatantly exploited the bug - even after receiving warnings.
    It's not unusual for games to release with known bugs. Just because bugs are in the released game does not necessarily mean those bugs in the game were not found and reported.


    Noaani wrote: »
    Third, even if the intent was to never report this bug, people capable of finding them are still exponentially more valuable as testers than people that think, for example, an early alpha test has an economy that needs to be considered.
    That's irrelevant. The people who were banned cared more about playing selfishly (and helping others selfishly play), rather than testing bugs. Many of the people who were banned didn't find the bug, rather they exploited the bug after their friends taught them the steps for reproducing the exploit.


    Noaani wrote: »
    If developers know the people that find these bugs, they can easily just check up on those people periodically to observe what new bugs they have found. There is no specific need for them to be reported in order for Intrepid to be made aware of them.
    Sure. But, that has nothing to do with exploiters.


    Noaani wrote: »
    Banning people that have shown you that they are good at finding bugs, at a point in development where you want to find bugs, is bad for the game. People that think banning these people is the right thing to do clearly don't have any interest in making a quality game - they are clearly ok with testers (and by extention Intrepid) finding fewer bugs.
    Again... most of the people banned for duping did not find that bug - their friends taught them how to reproduce the exploit. No one got banned for finding a bug.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Not surprised folks respond with dismay about bad testers being banned. I just chalk that up to inexperience with product testing than from anything else. White hat testers may identify a bug, then exploit it to explore the downstream impacts, but it's then written up extensively so it can be understood and prioritized accordingly. Bad faith testers will identify the bug, exploit the bug, communicate the bug to others, and report nothing. No one in the system benefits from bad faith testing, so removing them is the most sensible response.

    If that triggers you, it might be worth asking whether this phase of testing is appropriate to participate in, versus waiting for a more complete version of the game in Beta.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Not surprised folks respond with dismay about bad testers being banned.

    Just so everyone is clear, nobody was banned for this - their accounts were completely wiped so they had to reroll from the ground up.
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Bad faith testers will identify the bug, exploit the bug, communicate the bug to others, and report nothing. No one in the system benefits from bad faith testing, so removing them is the most sensible response.

    Outside of some fringe 200iq strat of identifying people who will absolutely exploit when given the chance for future moderation flagging, it most certainly takes more work trying to undo the damage they do to the testing environment than it would be to remove them completely next time - now that the proper warning shot was fired.
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    Just so everyone is clear, nobody was banned for this - their accounts were completely wiped so they had to reroll from the ground up.

    Huh. Intrepid is much more forgiving than me, but I'm in a different industry. I think the warning needs to stand out for those folks and as the only warning for future testers. Agree on the effort to unwind the impact of exploiters v. the effort to ban & replace.

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 26
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? .

    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 26
    CROW3 wrote: »
    White hat testers may identify a bug, then exploit it to explore the downstream impacts, but it's then written up extensively so it can be understood and prioritized accordingly. Bad faith testers will identify the bug, exploit the bug, communicate the bug to others, and report nothing.
    To me, this depends on the testing environment.

    If I was conducting a professional test, I would 100% exclude those bad faith testers. However, for a test that is not professional, I wouldn't really expect those testing to understand the difference.

    To me, the line I would draw there is if I have a bug bounty or not. If I have one, I expect professional conduct from my testers. Without one though, I have no such expectation, and indeed would expect some of these non-professional testers to disrupt things from time to time.
  • LodrigLodrig Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.

    Not using explioits has ALWAYS been a comandment from Intrepid, so yes they DID infact "carry on with activities after being told by the developers to stop". And 'break things' dosn't mean break the testing environments economy.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 26
    Lodrig wrote: »
    And 'break things' dosn't mean break the testing environments economy.
    The test environment doesn't have an economy.

    Also, standing instruction and specific instruction are different things.

    As I said in my post above, in a non professional test environment, the expectation has to be that people will break things. You can't really punish them for that. You can give them a slap on the wrist and try and guide their behavior for next time, but that is about it.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    I beg you guys not to waste your oxygen anymore with him.

    "Also, standing instruction and specific instruction are different things"

    He's literally trying to argue about HOW the people were told to stop. He as almost 16,000 forum posts for a game no where close to out and I'm convinced he's just farming post count at this point.
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  • Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? .

    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.

    Well, I appreciate you standing in the middle of the sewage processing plant that you want I suppose. Kudos. As I said above, you get the game that you want.
  • kadimir wrote: »
    I beg you guys not to waste your oxygen anymore with him.

    "Also, standing instruction and specific instruction are different things"

    He's literally trying to argue about HOW the people were told to stop. He as almost 16,000 forum posts for a game no where close to out and I'm convinced he's just farming post count at this point.

    Yeah, in the previous post they said that there shouldn't be any punishment at all cause "It's not the full game yet". My guess is that they've got connections with individuals they don't wanna see banned. All good.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? .

    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.

    Well, I appreciate you standing in the middle of the sewage processing plant that you want I suppose. Kudos. As I said above, you get the game that you want.

    Which is one that has fewer bugs.

    I am unsure why you want different.

    Keep in mind, punishment paradigm during alpha and after the game has released do not need to be consistent with each other. This is perhaps what some of you assume will be the case.
  • RymRym Member, Alpha Two
    You missed the entire point of the Alpha testing and went on to rant about your vision of how an Alpha should be run.

    Of course they weren't banned. They didn't do anything that was ban worthy. They received penalties and punishments according to what they did, and everyone moved on with their day.

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