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Why were exploiters not simply permanently banned?

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Comments

  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    I think the punishment was fitting because while they can track all of the duped items, they may not necessarily be able to track all of the bad actors since some players made trades for dupes that they didn’t know were dupes.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? .

    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.

    Well, I appreciate you standing in the middle of the sewage processing plant that you want I suppose. Kudos. As I said above, you get the game that you want.

    Which is one that has fewer bugs.

    I am unsure why you want different.

    Keep in mind, punishment paradigm during alpha and after the game has released do not need to be consistent with each other. This is perhaps what some of you assume will be the case.

    I gotta figure you're willfully ignoring facts here. Exploiting a bug is in no way the same thing as finding it and reporting it. Again, no one has an issue with people finding bugs, it's a made-up argument. I would also point out that more once Steven pointed out that the current alpha is being used to gather information on all the systems in the game in his live stream today. So, it seems that he does see value in more than just server load.
  • Rym wrote: »
    You missed the entire point of the Alpha testing and went on to rant about your vision of how an Alpha should be run.

    Of course they weren't banned. They didn't do anything that was ban worthy. They received penalties and punishments according to what they did, and everyone moved on with their day.

    I gotta assume that you didn't understand my post, there was no punishment. The characters were deleted a few game days (4-8?) before a wipe was gonna happen and the money they stole from the bank (metaphor) was taken away. Neither of these things is a punishment. My guess is that it doesn't matter what they did to you, as the dupe wrecked the entire in-game economy for multiple servers and made node testing completely worthless.
  • I think the punishment was fitting because while they can track all of the duped items, they may not necessarily be able to track all of the bad actors since some players made trades for dupes that they didn’t know were dupes.

    This doesn't seem to be the case at all, considering that they just warned a massive group of players and then took the time to delete about 100. It seems very obvious that they could track the magnitude of the infractions. Unfortunately this is just soft-handed 'we don't wanna cause drama' CS and in the end it will hurt the game. When it happens again it'd be interesting to know how many of the first 'warned' group do it again, though i suspect we'll never know.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    I think the punishment was fitting because while they can track all of the duped items, they may not necessarily be able to track all of the bad actors since some players made trades for dupes that they didn’t know were dupes.

    This doesn't seem to be the case at all, considering that they just warned a massive group of players and then took the time to delete about 100. It seems very obvious that they could track the magnitude of the infractions. Unfortunately this is just soft-handed 'we don't wanna cause drama' CS and in the end it will hurt the game. When it happens again it'd be interesting to know how many of the first 'warned' group do it again, though i suspect we'll never know.

    That's not obvious at all?

    If a tester gets mistakenly deleted they will maybe be upset, but it's Alpha, they're testing, it's whatever. They don't have much incentive to even make a fuss, and minimal incentive to 'pretend it wasn't them' because Intrepid can just wave it off and ask them to re-test (and if they dislike this and give up, it's just like banning them_.

    If a tester gets mistakenly banned that's a much bigger deal.

    There has recently been a post specifically mentioning that a player got caught up in the duping deletes/lockdown while not being involved in the duping (by their viewpoint, anyway).

    This player asked for nothing. Their post complained about nothing. It was just 'hey devs you might have had a false positive, I've reported it'.

    I'm sure there will be some people who assume this is an error on their part, or some weird manipulation. As a person who has written these systems for a living, those people are invaluable, because 'tracking' is incredibly inconsistent. It's software. Computers do not in fact, just 'do what they're told' exactly, on very large scales, particularly not databases.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    The theme that is very prevalent here is that because the game is not finished exploiting bugs don't matter.
    No, the theme is that we are not here to play a game, we are here to test a product that will one day become a game.

    So, by that logic, you're against any type of discipline at all then right? .

    For an alpha test like this, anything short if causing the servers to drop, or carrying on with an activity after being told by the developer to stop, yes I am.

    This isn't a game, we are not here to play. We are here to break shit, so punishing people for breaking shit sends the message to nit break shit. Thst means less people breaking shit, less people finding bugs, and thus more bugs in the actual game when it is released.

    Well, I appreciate you standing in the middle of the sewage processing plant that you want I suppose. Kudos. As I said above, you get the game that you want.

    Which is one that has fewer bugs.

    I am unsure why you want different.

    Keep in mind, punishment paradigm during alpha and after the game has released do not need to be consistent with each other. This is perhaps what some of you assume will be the case.

    I gotta figure you're willfully ignoring facts here. Exploiting a bug is in no way the same thing as finding it and reporting it. Again, no one has an issue with people finding bugs, it's a made-up argument. I would also point out that more once Steven pointed out that the current alpha is being used to gather information on all the systems in the game in his live stream today. So, it seems that he does see value in more than just server load.

    No, we get it.

    What you don't get is that in a test environment, there is no exploiting.

    An exploit requires gain, and since a test server is going to be wiped with absolutely nothing carrying over (no gear, no stats, no nothing), there is no gain to be had, thus the term exploit simply doesn't fit.

    A disruption would be a better term, not an exploit.

    This action would absolutely be an exploit if the game were live, and permanant bans would be 100% valid. However, it is this test environment that means it simply isn't actually an exploit.
  • LodrigLodrig Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »

    What you don't get is that in a test environment, there is no exploiting.

    An exploit requires gain, and since a test server is going to be wiped with absolutely nothing carrying over (no gear, no stats, no nothing), there is no gain to be had, thus the term exploit simply doesn't fit.

    A disruption would be a better term, not an exploit.

    This action would absolutely be an exploit if the game were live, and permanant bans would be 100% valid. However, it is this test environment that means it simply isn't actually an exploit.

    Tell that to Steven, he's repeatedly called them exploits and the people who do them exploiters.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 28
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    What you don't get is that in a test environment, there is no exploiting.

    An exploit requires gain, and since a test server is going to be wiped with absolutely nothing carrying over (no gear, no stats, no nothing), there is no gain to be had, thus the term exploit simply doesn't fit.

    A disruption would be a better term, not an exploit.

    This action would absolutely be an exploit if the game were live, and permanant bans would be 100% valid. However, it is this test environment that means it simply isn't actually an exploit.

    Tell that to Steven, he's repeatedly called them exploits and the people who do them exploiters.

    Sure he is.

    As I said earler, any punishment that is in the public eye is done for the benefot of the public, not as a punishment. Actual punishment is done behind closed doors.

    He is appeasing people that have no idea - as is his job.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    What you don't get is that in a test environment, there is no exploiting.

    An exploit requires gain, and since a test server is going to be wiped with absolutely nothing carrying over (no gear, no stats, no nothing), there is no gain to be had, thus the term exploit simply doesn't fit.

    A disruption would be a better term, not an exploit.

    This action would absolutely be an exploit if the game were live, and permanant bans would be 100% valid. However, it is this test environment that means it simply isn't actually an exploit.

    Tell that to Steven, he's repeatedly called them exploits and the people who do them exploiters.

    Sure he is.

    As I said earler, any punishment that is in the public eye is done for the benefot of the public, not as a punishment. Actual punishment is done behind closed doors.

    He is appeasing people that have no idea - as is his job.

    Ahhh, yes, the conspiracy brain appears! At this point it's impossible to argue with you, cause all roads lead to wherever you want them to. If no one is banned it's because "There are no exploits in an alpha", but if the game director punishes people and says there are exploits it's because "They have to appear to care.". This isn't a discussion, it's playing whack-a-mole with crazier and crazier conspiracies. GG.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    people are SUPPOSED to find exploits

    Exactly.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited November 28
    Wrennardx wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    What you don't get is that in a test environment, there is no exploiting.

    An exploit requires gain, and since a test server is going to be wiped with absolutely nothing carrying over (no gear, no stats, no nothing), there is no gain to be had, thus the term exploit simply doesn't fit.

    A disruption would be a better term, not an exploit.

    This action would absolutely be an exploit if the game were live, and permanant bans would be 100% valid. However, it is this test environment that means it simply isn't actually an exploit.

    Tell that to Steven, he's repeatedly called them exploits and the people who do them exploiters.

    Sure he is.

    As I said earler, any punishment that is in the public eye is done for the benefot of the public, not as a punishment. Actual punishment is done behind closed doors.

    He is appeasing people that have no idea - as is his job.

    Ahhh, yes, the conspiracy brain appears!

    What conspiracy?

    Ask any MMORPG developer or in game security. 90%+ of all punishment is dealt with behind the scenes, the only time it's made public is when the public has a reason to know.

    The thing you need to keep in mind with Steven is that he isn't PR. his comments are not parsed through PR. He will call that action an exploit because 99% of the time it is one.

    The fact that this is an alpha test as so there technically isn't any exploitation possible (due to the requirement of a gain existing) isn't necessarily something he will consider when communicating with the player base.

    You want to know how we know that this wasn't an exploit though? No accounts were banned. If those players were trying to gain some actual advantage that carried over to the live game, you can be fairly confident their accounts would be terminated.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    The thing you need to keep in mind with Steven is that he isn't PR. his comments are not parsed through PR. He will call that action an exploit because 99% of the time it is one.

    The fact that this is an alpha test as so there technically isn't any exploitation possible (due to the requirement of a gain existing) isn't necessarily something he will consider when communicating with the player base.

    You want to know how we know that this wasn't an exploit though? No accounts were banned. If those players were trying to gain some actual advantage that carried over to the live game, you can be fairly confident their accounts would be terminated.

    8llij2roamjv.png

    You nor I don't need to consider anything, the person running the show has been consistent, loud, and clear. Steven *JUST MIGHT* know more about the development of his game than you, a literal nobody. This dead horse has already been beat dude, If steven showed up at your house with the entire intrepid studio staff and they all unanimously chanted the truth you'd still try to spread wild speculation to the contrary of reality.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    You nor I don't need to consider anything, the person running the show has been consistent, loud, and clear.

    Indeed.

    People need to take note of the part where he said "the goal here isn't to play, it's to test".

    That is my point. People are complaining about exploits and such as if they are playing Ashes - but the goal here is not tonplay, it is to test.

    You seem to keep trying to say that my take here is different to Steven's, but mine literally is the same as his.

    I never said the results of what would be considered exploits should be left in place, I said the goal right now is to test, and those thst find bugs are exactly the kinds of people you want testing.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    I was waiting to see if you would take the bait.

    You're either a troll or write propaganda pieces that cite and ignore all data it cites
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    kadimir wrote: »
    I was waiting to see if you would take the bait.

    You're either a troll or write propaganda pieces that cite and ignore all data it cites

    I would say the same of you.

    You are trying to say my take on things is at odds with Steven's take, despite the fact that (for a change) I am on the same page thst he is on.
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    edited December 1
    You agree with 1 statement despite the entire context of the statement contradicting your entire argument? He's literally going to punish the people who abused an error on their part this time by rolling those players back. What about this makes you think there are no exploits in the eyes of intrepid during alpha?

    Put your money where your mouth is and abuse every bug to the fullest, surely it's not playing it's testing - and thus you've extrapolated that there is no punishment because it's just an alpha.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 1
    kadimir wrote: »
    You agree with 1 statement despite the entire context of the statement contradicting your entire argument? He's literally going to punish the people who abused an error on their part this time by rolling those players back.
    I have not said I have an issue with a rollback at all.

    A ban is what I have said is counter productive, because we are here to test, not to play.

    Which part of that is contradictory to what Steven is saying?
  • LodrigLodrig Member, Alpha Two
    Characters were not simply 'rolled back' to before their exploit gains. They were DELETED, which by defintion is MORE then simply undoing the exploit gains. You are simply flatly denying what was done to suit your narrative.

    Again Noaani you take the cake as the most out of touch spewer of BS I think I've ever seen on these forums.
  • IskiabIskiab Member, Alpha Two
    You're right. In fact, not taking actions now is a form of condoning doing it later. People have become used to not being punished for exploiting, IF ashes is going to be different, they'll have to act different. Bans should come down hard now to prevent headaches later.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Lodrig wrote: »
    Characters were not simply 'rolled back' to before their exploit gains. They were DELETED, which by defintion is MORE then simply undoing the exploit gains. You are simply flatly denying what was done to suit your narrative.

    Again Noaani you take the cake as the most out of touch spewer of BS I think I've ever seen on these forums.

    Take note, my comment was that I have not said that I have an issue with a roll back. I didn't claim there was a roll back, I made the statement that I have not said I have an issue with a roll back.

    It was Kadimir that mentioned a roll back - why you are taking something they said that I only stated I had no issue with, and trying to make it out like that is what I said is beyond me.

    My point from the start of this thread - as I said in the post above, is that a ban for these players is counter productive. Intrepid agree, which is why they were not banned. How you think that means I am out of touch is beyond me.

    The funny thing is - when it comes to a test server, what you are saying by deleting characters is "here, test that again".
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 1
    Iskiab wrote: »
    You're right. In fact, not taking actions now is a form of condoning doing it later.

    This is only applicable to people that don't know the difference between a testing environment and a live game - which very much seems to be everyone that has an issue here.

    Anyone that is aware of the difference is more than aware that actions or inactions now have no bearing at all on what actions or inaction would be taken for the same activity once the game is live.
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