Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Open letter to Mr. Sharif for the problems of casual players
Sentani
Member, Alpha Two
Dear Mr. Sharif
First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.
My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?
We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.
It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.
(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)
And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?
Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.
Risk against rewards – not for us.
The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.
The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.
AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.
We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.
Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.
For all power leveling and PvP players:
Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.
Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.
My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.
I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.
And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.
Regards
Sentani
(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)
First of all: I am a casual player. A gatherer, farmer and builder.
My guild and I are actually looking forward to building something in a game like AoC, but why?
We are at a massive disadvantage compared to power leveling players and PvP guilds.
It only takes about 70 hours of play to get to level 25 within a group.
(See the "Ultimate Level Guide" on youtube)
And as gatherers and crafters – what can we achieve in 70 hours?
Maybe 2 professions at Level 2 and level 10 in Fighting.
Risk against rewards – not for us.
The more time we invest in building a node, the higher the risk that a 50-man PvP guild at a high level will tear everything down and destroy hundreds of hours of game time.
The more successful we are as a building guild, the bigger the target on our backs.
AoC forces us to either join a very large guild or work as slaves in (or for) a PvP guild. Diplomacy alone will not save us.
We haven't even started playing and we're already screwed.
Rewards - for PvE players? Nope - only risk.
For all power leveling and PvP players:
Normally, players like my friends and I are the backbone of all MMO games, we build, we make high-quality weapons and armor, etc... But in AoC we are just victims or slaves. This cannot work in its current form, as we are deprived of any motivation to build something as a smaller guild. I ask for your understanding that even smaller guilds and casual players in AoC should not only be defenseless targets.
Conclusion:
As a casual player, gatherer and crafter, I have no rewards to expect, only risk.
My node, my freehold and my caravans are only targets for PvP players.
I would like to ask you to rethink some game mechanics.
And no - i don't have a good solution. And yes - i think that most of us will leave this game if our node and freeholds are destoyed and we had played so many time for nothing.
Regards
Sentani
(English is not my native language sorry for the Google translation)
0
Comments
Here is your first learning point.
Ashes isn't a game where you can ignore PvP and PvE and just do Artisan. You're going to need to do all three. Maybe not in equal portions, but you'll need to engage in all of them.
Once you've really taken in that point, you'll see that the rest of your letter answers itself.
How are you NOT a "slave" in all the other mmos where you're building weapons and armor?
Are you making those only for yourself in other games? And then what exactly stops you from doing the literal same in Ashes? I soloed as a multi-artisan in P1. I mined metals/rocks, chopped wood, processed and crafted a ton of different stuff. I wasn't anyone's "slave" while doing all of that.
So I fail to see how exactly is you being a casual in other games, where everyone who's not a casual is stronger than you, is any different from Ashes, where it's gonna be the exact same situation.
You do realize that hardcore players will be in the same situation, right? Except they will invest even more time and effort into their part of the node, freehold, caravans.
You're not special here. But you are casual (as you say yourself), and freeholds are a hardcore part of the game. Caravans are a hardcore part of the game. And nodes are shared across, potentially, hundreds of people, so it's not just YOU who will lose things.
Ashes is not against casuals. Ashes is simply a more hardcore game than something like Palia. If you're not ok with potentially losing progress - the game might not be to your liking, but that has nothing to do with you being casual or hardcore.
Ashes isn't a game where you can ignore PvP and PvE and just do Artisan. You're going to need to do all three. Maybe not in equal portions, but you'll need to engage in all of them.
Once you've really taken in that point, you'll see that the rest of your letter answers itself.
I understand that, but our time investment as casual players (and gatherers, crafters) is much higher than for hardcore PvP players. Our losses are greater, our rewards are smaller.
And nodes are shared across, potentially, hundreds of people, so it's not just YOU who will lose things.
Ashes is not against casuals. Ashes is simply a more hardcore game than something like Palia. If you're not ok with potentially losing progress - the game might not be to your liking, but that has nothing to do with you being casual or hardcore.
Yes - I know that I don't lose any progress, but here too I lose more in invested playing time than I get in "rewards". And please don't misunderstand me, in a node war the entire node can be destroyed.
For smaller guilds (smaller nodes) this can be the end of the game.
So I repeat my statement that smaller guilds that focus on casual play are only targets for hardcore guilds and have little protection
I don't think I can make that point any more clear than that.
if you are convinced that Ashes is the game for you, that you want to be involved in building something in this game, then by far your best option is to find a large but generally mature guild, put to them what you plan on putting in to the gam, what you want out the game and how that could be of benefit to them, and then either become a part of their guild, or affiliated with it.
The thing is, what appear from your perspective as being issues with the games design are actually features of the game.
And don't worry too much about what people say.
Is that all you can think of?
The game is not suitable for players like me?
Join a large guild - we don't want small guilds?
At the moment, only the law of the strongest applies in AoC.
As a high-level PvP guild, you can do anything in this game.
As a smaller casual guild, you can't, quite the opposite. You are a victim or a slave because you can lose everything you have built up.
I want to point that out with my statement.
But you are right
Now I play hardcore with my small guild, look for an alliance with like-minded people and use weaker guilds and nodes as loot boxes.
If that's what you want, then that's how it is.
Also, does not appear to be designed for Casual Time players. Especially since Steven does not even acknowledge Casual Time as a thing.
Keep in mind that Alpha 2/Phase 1 is primarily a stability test.
Professions may feel better by Alpha 2/Phase 3.
Especially if you're not playing on a PvP server.
Probably likely to feel like a slave when playing Lineage 2, EvE or ArcheAge, sure.
I invite you to read this article and tell me what you think.
https://pcgamer.com/eve-online-player-thinks-no-one-will-notice-if-he-hauls-dollar5000-worth-of-items-is-wrong/
Reasonable.
It isn't how I would want the game to be, but I am not making the game.
The game is designed around a few players having a lot of influence - that is kind of the point of the game as a whole. With an eye on the goal being that a few players have all the influence, things like crafting (at least at the top end) need to be able to be kept under those players thumb. You cant have all the influence concentrated to a few players if those same players do not also control character power in some way.
This is why, imo, the best thing you can do as a smaller guild is to be associated with one of these influential players.
Again, I'm not saying it's what I want, it's just how it is. Pointing it out as a flaw when in fact it is anpaet of the games basic design isn't going to get anywhere, unfortunately. I would also think that just agreeing with you that it sucks without also pointing out why it is how it is, and giving you a suggestion for how you could move forward seems equally as unhelpful.
Yeah man, thats hardcore
In Nodewars you can destoy the Node and the freeholds - the work of hundred hours of playtime.
When I read all the comments I come to the conclusion that I am wrong with my post.
I think my friends and I will specialize in hardcore PvP. The rewards are greater and the risk for high-level characters with high-quality weapons and armor will be lower.
Thank you for the comments - I have learned something new again
Assuming this isn't sarcastic, then welcome to Ashes of Creation. (I'm not being sarcastic either).
If you and your friends can work together well and get good at PvP, along with all the stuff you normally do, then you are almost exactly the target 'casual' audience of Ashes of Creation.
Know your rank, pick your battles, and don't get too attached to the specific current state of your chosen node, and I'm sure you will be able to enjoy it for years to come.
I'll just point out again that you're probably going to want to engage in all sides, rather than focusing on just the one.
You should be assuming any effort towards a town is forfeit in the long run. Its like giving money to a friend.... there's a chance you will get paid back, but they have no actual obligation to pay you back. Think of it more as an investment, either it will go up or down.
Second note, why should players who properly engage in all aspects of the game bend the knee to someone who wants to ignore half the systems in the game?
If I dont like using skills in combat, should I be able to light attack players to death?
I'm for skill based fluid combat, mechanic counterplay, and player+build individuality.
Theorycrafter, Engineer, Car+Engine Designer/tuner. Learning UE5
AOC Fighter Main
* focusing only on gathering/building is not the intended way to play the game (not that you cant), The intended way is to do everything the game provides - PVE/PVP/Gathering and ect.
* Why is your guild consisted of gatherers and crafters only? When you watch some streamers talking about their guilds they saying that X amount of players in the guild will be gatherers, Y will be crafters/ PVPers that will defend them and will help them with caravan runs / PVEers that kill bosses for rare materials from bosses needed by the crafters and so on.. And yes with small guild this is not that realistic approach, but thats why you have the alliance system. Ally with 1 guild of pvpers, You give them mats and craft items, they help you protect the node, and defend your caravans.
Think of it as a country. You have the average citizen that develops the economy, And they pay taxes for protection, health care, politics and ect.
I am a bit confused.
It sounds like you have a guild and want to focus on crafting instead of leveling and are complaining about not getting the levels others are getting that are focused more on leveling?
Should all those focused on leveling complain about you for being ahead of them in crafting and gear and weapons?
How about working on both as this seems to be more about wanting to have your cake and eating it too.
For the record, I kept up progression by leveling in small groups, sometimes as small as 3. It does not take a huge guild to level at a fairly quick rate and it sounds like you have a guild and others to play with to do this. If people elect to focus on crafting and gathering rather than leveling, that is a choice people are intentionally making.
As a Fellow casual player, I accept fully that I will never even be remotely close to on parr with the people who can play 8 hours a day. I take my time, I explore, I level in the time I can, and even after all these weekends I did not even reach level 20. and that is OK. I should make it on phase 2. If you want to hang with the best, you kinda gotta play on their level too.
Only thing I hope is that they will bring back some of the power spike on crafting to make crafters feel appreciated. That is golden.
Every MMORPG in the world tend to be split between the super hardcore and the casual where casual play the game their way and the hardcore play it theirs. Why do we as casual players need to compete with the hardcore?
I understand the concern you have, yet I believe you are miscalculating the risk of your enemies. Remember that as a casual/smaller guild, the risk of you getting a target on your back from anything other than opportunists is relatively small. Especially after launch when the map is huge.
The Apex guilds, filled with those hardcore people, will be much more likely to be bumping heads with each other. Both to reap the rewards from loot, but primarily to keep each other in check.
At the beginning of my journey in AoC, I too was very scared of being in a small community in a large guild's world - but as time has gone by, I realized I think there is significant less risk to smaller communities...
* Smaller communities can much easier be sneaky as they transfer materials or other belongings long distances. Sure, large guild can run bigger caravans; but they will also be targeted much more frequently. Especially as they try to organize them.
* Freeholds in slightly smaller quantities seem very accessible to smaller guilds' pooling resources. Node politics are of course for bigger guild's/alliances, and here you'll have to choose carefully if you want to remain smaller and independent, or risk getting involved in higher stakes of warfare. As for nodes in themselves... Well, literally each and every singular player has the same risk/reward here, regardless of community.
All in all, right now I believe the game's vision works fine. Bigger and wealthier guilds = *potentially* more resources, but bigger target on your back. Smaller and independent guilds = steady income with less conflict.
This is not entirely true. Steven has said this game will have content for casual players. It just will be harder to do then other games. Things were mentioned about some classes will solo better because of the role and tool kit they have. Rangers are awesome ay soloing. I'm sure Summoners will as well. World events will be great place for casual players, blending into the background. It just requires more thought.
I haven't played yet, but I do have an idea:
If you guys are focused on PvE, can't you balance that by teaming up/allying with a group focused on PvP?
Theoretically, this would allow both of your groups to improve at a FASTER rate than the people trying to do everything at once.
Doing PvE, there must be some sort of PvE-only assets/resources that you will acquire. Similarly, doing PvP likely has PvP-only resources-- in your case you'd be looking for combat power.
Offer to share your PvE resources in exchange for protection.
This is the same as real life. If you have something of value, someone else would benefit from having it. If there are no rules, they may try to take it.
Can you defend your assets by yourself? If not, you should hire someone who can. You can either lose a little profit and gain protection, or keep the whole profit but risk losing it all.
In an MMORPG this should be obvious, but maybe I'm missing a mechanic. Again, I have yet to play the game.
It sounds like the definition of casual is being twisted here to mean 'not interested in PvP' rather then 'low and inconsistent playtime per week'. It is perfectly possible to be a Hardcore Crafter or Hardcore PvE player.
And their ARE already hardcore artisan guilds who do their artisan grind already. They are spreadsheeting and making tables and assigning people to chop 10k wood to feed to the next man on the chain, treating crafting with the same ruthlessness that PvP players treat combat with.
The markets are hardcore PvP.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
That said, I think Intrepid has stated several time and tried to make it clear that this game will not be for everyone. I'm still not 100% sure it's going to be for me, but I'm going to give it a try. I'm not saying that people shouldn't express their concerns. They should, especially now while the game is still in development.
Also, this is an Alpha. I'm not in the Alpha - for now - but I understand what they are about. They are basically about testing and pushing things to see if, when, and how they break. This also means that not every system will be up and functional. The version of game that is being "played" is not the version of the game that will be released. Everything has to be tested and feedback has to be given and evaluated. Yes, you can make educated guesses as to what things will be like when the game is released and live, but until then we really don't know how things are going to actually be when things go live. It seems that their are people, and I'm not saying the OP is one of them, that thinks Alpha Test = early entry to a finished game.
I still have my concerns, I am content to voice them and wait. I think I will probably be able to scratch out a niche for myself - on the right server with the right guild. So, the community around me - and the people I choose to have around me - will be important. Intrepid has been very upfront that community and group interact are part of the game, and player that AOC is not aimed at solo player play style. You aren't going to be able to play in a private bubble. So has cool as the game looks like it will be, you really need to think about that before you invest too much of your time in it.