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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Crafting/Gathering deadlock and how to fix it [Feedback and sugestions]
Kaban
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Hello everyone,
So as everyone has probably noticed high congestion with inadequate map area means crafting is really stunted at this time. This is further fuelled by the problem with higher tier materials spawning on top of lower tier materials. Right now donating copper or zinc to progress nodes is almost impossible and deters all gatherer's/crafters from doing so as the materials are way too scarce and people feel its better to either stash them for later or sell for giant profit. Compared to Phase 1 experience right now is just atrocious. And I know intrepid said they want feedback not solutions so if you are Intrepid staff member feel free to stop reading here. If you are not held at a gunpoint and ready to parlay please do continue on.
First thing i want to mention is that Tailoring again was given zero overhaul the problems related to it can be found in this god forsaken thread of mine: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/64209/tailoring-and-all-that-is-wrong-with-it#latest
Second thing is an overhaul needed for item rarities. I do agree items before might have been overpowered a tad but the nerfs made it literally useless to try and craft something above rare/heroic rarity as the increases are miniscule compared to crafting costs. Lets take Forsaken blade (lv.10 2-handed sword) as an example I will only apply maximum values here:
Common: 164 power rating; 41 speed rating
Uncommon: 177 power rating; 45 speed rating; 12 phys pen
Rare: 197 Power rating; 50 speed rating; 16 phys pen; 4 stam
Heroic: 224 power rating; 56 speed rating; 21 phys pen; 5 con; 3 str
Epic: 250 power rating; 63 speed rating; 27 phys pen; 6 con; 6 str
Legendary: 290 power rating; 73 speed rating; 35 phys pen; 8 con; 10 str
Lets now break it down shall we?
Stat improvement against basic version in ascending rarity:
U: 7.92% Power rating; 9,75% speed rating
R: 20,12% Power Rating; 21,95% speed rating
H: 36,58% Power Rating; 36,58% speed rating
E: 52,43% Power Rating; 53,65% speed rating
L: 76,82% Power Rating; 78,04% speed rating
Can't elaborate on phys rating as these stats are quite ambiguous but lets look things we can decipher:
8 con = 80 health increase
10 str = ~30 power rating
Power rating increase by nearly 77% against base version might seem a serious but now lets not forget that skills/damage scales of POWER not "Power Rating" on average 3 power rating constitutes to 1 power. Which means the actual damage increase from legendary weapon is about a third of that. Equipping legendary variant will increase your power rating (including STR bonus) by 95,12% which in turn increases your damage dealt by roughly 31,7% added a few % towards penetration but that's highly variable depending on target's armour which in case of unarmoured targets will probably have no effect at all (penetration is measured against mitigation so I assume it can't go into negative values).
So in order to gain a 31% increase in damage you have to craft (perfect) item that is made of scarce materials it might still seem big improvement but only to the point you compare it against heroic grade item, now the improvements aren't that great anymore.
Epic and Legendary vs Heroic (including STR bonus):
E: Power Rating 15,02%; Speed Rating 12,5%
L: Power Rating 37,33%; Speed Rating 30,35%
Third thing is a possible solution material spawning problem. As we know gathering from one node sends a letter to RNGesus to respawn the node as everything from the given pool. To my understanding atm every single material within category is in the same pool. So gathering a herb node can spawn any herb, mining stone can spawn any stone/metal, killing a mob can spawn it as huntable and it feels wrong that a placeholder hunting seems to be more consistent than way more fleshed out mining or herbalism. Where mining zinc can spawn iron and lock out the spawn. Possible solution I had in mind for some time is to tie spawns with node progression exclusively. If a node builds a building that allows you to progress gathering, lets say stonemasons for instance, then the area will start spawning said materials and influences neighbouring nodes with these spawn rates..
For example lets assume that Winstead builds stonemasons it then unlocks spawn pool for tier 2 materials within Winstead influence area and these would then spawn at half of the rate in its neighbouring areas. So lets just assume a few things for a moment:
We divide spawn tables into 2 - Common minerals (Granite, Basalt, Slate...), Rare minerals (Copper, Zinc, Ruby, Tin...)
1. T1 materials (Basalt, Granite, Copper, Rubies and Zinc) populate the whole world
2. Common T1 (Basalt and Granite) spawns are area locked (some parts of map have basalt the others have granite and they spawn at 80% rate.
3. Rare T1 (Copper, zinc and rubies) spawn at 20% rate and are not geolocked they simply can spawn instead of Common T1.
4. Mining Rare T1 has 30% chance to respawn it as a Rare T1 and 70% chance as Common T1
5. Winstead builds stonemasons
6. T2 Materials (Slate, Tin, Emerald, Halcyonite) enter spawn tables shifting the rates slightly towards T2 spawn.
7. Common T1 when mined has now 30% chance to spawn as Common T2, 15% Rare T1 and 55% as Common T1
8. Rare T1 has 30% chance to spawn as Rare T2 and 15% as Rare T1 and 55% as Common T1
9. Rare T2 has 30% chance to respawn as Rare T2, 15% as Common T2 and 55% as Common T1
10. Common T2 has 30% chance to respawn as Common T2, 15% as Rare T2 and 55% as Common T1
11. Any adjacent nodes are affected by 50% of the effect if they DO NOT HAVE same building constructed. Modifiers native to the node override neighbouring effects.
12. The moment node progresses to Journeyman lvl within said gathering spec T1 will no longer spawn and will instead make room for T2 and T3 at the same ratio.
13. Nodes that NOT NATIVE and are only influenced by said rate changes will always keep their T1 spawns at no less than 50% of their original value.
I know it was a long post and plenty of you probably go tl;dr on it but if you made it till the end and like the idea thinking it might solve our problems please do create some noise and maybe someone will finally listen.
Cheers,
SlaptonTheWhaler
So as everyone has probably noticed high congestion with inadequate map area means crafting is really stunted at this time. This is further fuelled by the problem with higher tier materials spawning on top of lower tier materials. Right now donating copper or zinc to progress nodes is almost impossible and deters all gatherer's/crafters from doing so as the materials are way too scarce and people feel its better to either stash them for later or sell for giant profit. Compared to Phase 1 experience right now is just atrocious. And I know intrepid said they want feedback not solutions so if you are Intrepid staff member feel free to stop reading here. If you are not held at a gunpoint and ready to parlay please do continue on.
First thing i want to mention is that Tailoring again was given zero overhaul the problems related to it can be found in this god forsaken thread of mine: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/64209/tailoring-and-all-that-is-wrong-with-it#latest
Second thing is an overhaul needed for item rarities. I do agree items before might have been overpowered a tad but the nerfs made it literally useless to try and craft something above rare/heroic rarity as the increases are miniscule compared to crafting costs. Lets take Forsaken blade (lv.10 2-handed sword) as an example I will only apply maximum values here:
Common: 164 power rating; 41 speed rating
Uncommon: 177 power rating; 45 speed rating; 12 phys pen
Rare: 197 Power rating; 50 speed rating; 16 phys pen; 4 stam
Heroic: 224 power rating; 56 speed rating; 21 phys pen; 5 con; 3 str
Epic: 250 power rating; 63 speed rating; 27 phys pen; 6 con; 6 str
Legendary: 290 power rating; 73 speed rating; 35 phys pen; 8 con; 10 str
Lets now break it down shall we?
Stat improvement against basic version in ascending rarity:
U: 7.92% Power rating; 9,75% speed rating
R: 20,12% Power Rating; 21,95% speed rating
H: 36,58% Power Rating; 36,58% speed rating
E: 52,43% Power Rating; 53,65% speed rating
L: 76,82% Power Rating; 78,04% speed rating
Can't elaborate on phys rating as these stats are quite ambiguous but lets look things we can decipher:
8 con = 80 health increase
10 str = ~30 power rating
Power rating increase by nearly 77% against base version might seem a serious but now lets not forget that skills/damage scales of POWER not "Power Rating" on average 3 power rating constitutes to 1 power. Which means the actual damage increase from legendary weapon is about a third of that. Equipping legendary variant will increase your power rating (including STR bonus) by 95,12% which in turn increases your damage dealt by roughly 31,7% added a few % towards penetration but that's highly variable depending on target's armour which in case of unarmoured targets will probably have no effect at all (penetration is measured against mitigation so I assume it can't go into negative values).
So in order to gain a 31% increase in damage you have to craft (perfect) item that is made of scarce materials it might still seem big improvement but only to the point you compare it against heroic grade item, now the improvements aren't that great anymore.
Epic and Legendary vs Heroic (including STR bonus):
E: Power Rating 15,02%; Speed Rating 12,5%
L: Power Rating 37,33%; Speed Rating 30,35%
Third thing is a possible solution material spawning problem. As we know gathering from one node sends a letter to RNGesus to respawn the node as everything from the given pool. To my understanding atm every single material within category is in the same pool. So gathering a herb node can spawn any herb, mining stone can spawn any stone/metal, killing a mob can spawn it as huntable and it feels wrong that a placeholder hunting seems to be more consistent than way more fleshed out mining or herbalism. Where mining zinc can spawn iron and lock out the spawn. Possible solution I had in mind for some time is to tie spawns with node progression exclusively. If a node builds a building that allows you to progress gathering, lets say stonemasons for instance, then the area will start spawning said materials and influences neighbouring nodes with these spawn rates..
For example lets assume that Winstead builds stonemasons it then unlocks spawn pool for tier 2 materials within Winstead influence area and these would then spawn at half of the rate in its neighbouring areas. So lets just assume a few things for a moment:
We divide spawn tables into 2 - Common minerals (Granite, Basalt, Slate...), Rare minerals (Copper, Zinc, Ruby, Tin...)
1. T1 materials (Basalt, Granite, Copper, Rubies and Zinc) populate the whole world
2. Common T1 (Basalt and Granite) spawns are area locked (some parts of map have basalt the others have granite and they spawn at 80% rate.
3. Rare T1 (Copper, zinc and rubies) spawn at 20% rate and are not geolocked they simply can spawn instead of Common T1.
4. Mining Rare T1 has 30% chance to respawn it as a Rare T1 and 70% chance as Common T1
5. Winstead builds stonemasons
6. T2 Materials (Slate, Tin, Emerald, Halcyonite) enter spawn tables shifting the rates slightly towards T2 spawn.
7. Common T1 when mined has now 30% chance to spawn as Common T2, 15% Rare T1 and 55% as Common T1
8. Rare T1 has 30% chance to spawn as Rare T2 and 15% as Rare T1 and 55% as Common T1
9. Rare T2 has 30% chance to respawn as Rare T2, 15% as Common T2 and 55% as Common T1
10. Common T2 has 30% chance to respawn as Common T2, 15% as Rare T2 and 55% as Common T1
11. Any adjacent nodes are affected by 50% of the effect if they DO NOT HAVE same building constructed. Modifiers native to the node override neighbouring effects.
12. The moment node progresses to Journeyman lvl within said gathering spec T1 will no longer spawn and will instead make room for T2 and T3 at the same ratio.
13. Nodes that NOT NATIVE and are only influenced by said rate changes will always keep their T1 spawns at no less than 50% of their original value.
I know it was a long post and plenty of you probably go tl;dr on it but if you made it till the end and like the idea thinking it might solve our problems please do create some noise and maybe someone will finally listen.
Cheers,
SlaptonTheWhaler
2
Comments
Glory to Arioch
Glory to Winsted
For my mana addicted brothers:
For the Glory of Quel'Thalas
With regards to equipment levels, small incremental improvement is kind of always the name of the game. Item with 3% haste might be worth a million game bucks, but the upgrade with 5% is worth 20 million. I don’t think every single step needs to be a giant leap, otherwise the starting point needs to be lowered to accommodate.
I think crafting outcomes/material requirements aside, we need to solve the copper problem before we can have a real insight into the rest of crafting. (outside of tailoring, that one is sideways and needs jesus).
if im reading that right, someone with 12 legendary pieces is 31% stronger accross the board?
idk, ragardless of wha tyou think the power increase should be. i LOVE the fact that after 2 weeks we dont have everyone their mothers, and their mothers dog running around in full legendary gear.
its MEANT to be LEGENDARY.