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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
[Feedback] Corruption
AirborneBerserker
Member, Alpha Two
The corruption system is a massive waste of time, and can NEVER be properly fixed. Shit can it and do something else.
Why? The corruption system relies on people killing the corrupt person. This necessary aspect means that for corruption system to work you must necessarily be able to kill the corrupted person. The punishment is when killed you drop gear. The quickest easiest work around is to have a friend/guild mate kill you right after you become corrupted pick up your stuff and give it back to you.
The only way to prevent this is to stop people from having their friends/guildmates from killing them, or more accurately described, you have to prevent the corrupted person from being killed by other people. I shouldn't have to explain why this is impossible.
You could make corruption persist through death, which would make no difference, they would just have their friend kill them multiple times.
You could make it so Guildmates/Friends can't attack each other, which would cause a whole host of other problems, and people would just drop the guild/friend long enough to complete the task.
You could add a timer so people can't just drop guilds/friends and pop back in/on the guild/friends list. Doesn't actually stop them for using the work around and they can still do all the things one might do in a guild. Also, punishes people who have done nothing wrong.
What you would have to do is remove the drop gear on death mechanic and replace it with something else. Either the gear is not dropped but instead destroyed, which will never happen because that would discourage OWPvP too much.
Or you remove the other person killing aspect, relying on the environment, which the person just has a friend stand next to them and pick there stuff up. Again easily worked around.
The other option is removing the death aspect all together, and instead coming up with a punishment based on some other aspect which would totally defeat the purpose of the corruption system, which is to encourage OWPvP while creating a risk vs reward decision.
Why? The corruption system relies on people killing the corrupt person. This necessary aspect means that for corruption system to work you must necessarily be able to kill the corrupted person. The punishment is when killed you drop gear. The quickest easiest work around is to have a friend/guild mate kill you right after you become corrupted pick up your stuff and give it back to you.
The only way to prevent this is to stop people from having their friends/guildmates from killing them, or more accurately described, you have to prevent the corrupted person from being killed by other people. I shouldn't have to explain why this is impossible.
You could make corruption persist through death, which would make no difference, they would just have their friend kill them multiple times.
You could make it so Guildmates/Friends can't attack each other, which would cause a whole host of other problems, and people would just drop the guild/friend long enough to complete the task.
You could add a timer so people can't just drop guilds/friends and pop back in/on the guild/friends list. Doesn't actually stop them for using the work around and they can still do all the things one might do in a guild. Also, punishes people who have done nothing wrong.
What you would have to do is remove the drop gear on death mechanic and replace it with something else. Either the gear is not dropped but instead destroyed, which will never happen because that would discourage OWPvP too much.
Or you remove the other person killing aspect, relying on the environment, which the person just has a friend stand next to them and pick there stuff up. Again easily worked around.
The other option is removing the death aspect all together, and instead coming up with a punishment based on some other aspect which would totally defeat the purpose of the corruption system, which is to encourage OWPvP while creating a risk vs reward decision.
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Comments
How? Exactly.
This would punish people to harshly. The whole point is to ENCOURAGE OWPvP not discourage it.
You are trying to fix a system that is knowingly not working as intended and does not even have all the mechanics in place yet. I seriously doubt people will even go red after just one PK so it makes little sense to pass total judgement on a system never working when we have not even seen yet.
I find it odd that you start by saying the entire system is a waste of time and can NEVER be fixed and then proceed to list potential fixes. 🤔
Even though it is intentionally over-tuned, just continue to provide feedback on what you see. Even if the current feedback is not valid for the actual system that will eventually be in place, it can be taken into consideration for that tuning.
Heres a senario: One group attacks another group they kill one person which causes then to turn corrupt two of them die in the ensuing battle. They lost two pieces of gear for some mats. It's a pure loss 100% of the time which you can't have.
Scenario 1:
Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each drop two pieces of gear that Group B steals.
Scenario 2:
Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each have one piece of gear deleted and each drop one piece of gear that Group B steals.
A1 and A2 lose the same amount of gear in both situations, right? Are you saying something different?
I don't list potential fixes I point out that you can't fix the problem you can only push the workaround to a different location.
Because it's impossible to fix a system where the work around is to use every part of the system as intended.
You have to get a whole new system.
But you seem to lack the ability to think critically. Watch this...
You could add a timer to the ash pile so friends can't just pick up the lost gear and hand it back to thier friend.
That won't work, why?
Yes, even in situations where groups win the fight they instigate, losing even 1 piece of gear would end up being a net loss. Because of the egregous cost, both time and material, of creating gear.
You could lower the requirements for crafting gear, which won't work because now it's easier to just craft gear rather then fight over the opportunity to get gear. Which undermines the whole point of the system.
Again it needs to be shit canned and something else needs to be done.
I also think you misunderstand the corruption system. It is designed to DISincentivize PvP against non-flagged players, not incentivize it. It’s possible it’s too much disincentive right now, sure. But it’s supposed to be a disincentive.
I love it when replies start with lame personal attacks when someone points out something in their post. 🤣
Here let me help, you stated the 'corruption system' will NEVER work and needs to be canned and then pointed out ways you think will improve the corruption system. Backtracking and suggesting that it is no longer the corruption system because gear won't drop or you are removing the death aspect is weak.
Now back to my point, it is asinine to suggest a system that we have been told is not working as intended that we have not even fully seen yet is trash and needs to be tossed out.
If they wanted to disincentivize PvP then they need a system that doesn't rely on PvP to punish a person that wants to PvP.
It doesn't solve the problem because in cases where a group kills a single person then loses X people in the fight they lose X pieces of gear. Which means people wont PvP. Which is NOT what they want. They want OWPvP to happen. They don't want griefing.
None of the things you quoted would work.
Again you have a problem with critical thinking. If you had actually thought about why those wouldn't work rather just assuming the system will work you wouldnt have made any posts.
Also you need to reread the OP the phrase was not "fix" it was "fix properly".
Kerrai was very clear in stating that the corruption system is to disincentivize the killing of non-consensual combatants (which I agree with them on) and you twisted this into that they want to disincentivize PvP?
The system is not relying on PVP to punish a person that wants to PVP, the intent is to punish people that kill a non-combatant which Steven has repeatedly stated he wants to significantly decrease in this PVX game. We might be used to PK as a generic term for just killing another player but Steven has been using it for non-consensual pvp engagement deaths.
The primary issue currently is that as Steven has stated, the system is intentionally overtuned for alpha, is missing some mechanics, and currently has some issues to work out.
It is the fact that it is overtuned (red on one PK) and some of the bugs that need to be work out (such as going red when someone switched off combat mid fight and the pvp status falls off, or is positioning mounts so that the death of the mount results in red) that is the real issue right now in alpha.
Once Steven starts working on the corruption system where bugs are addressed and punishment is tweaked, our feedback on whether his vision of a corruption system will work is unreliable speculation based on not even seeing the actual system intended.
I LOVE pvp, but haven't attacked a single player in Alpha. I've been killed once by another player. The disincentives are so high, that the most fundamental element of PvX - ow pvp - is being avoided 95% of the time. That's just broke.
So, maybe it's worth pulling back corruption, xp debt, and material drops on death - just to help make pvp fun again, then figure out how to balance it with meaning / risk / reward. I know node wars would be a HELL of a lot more fun and attended if we could just pvp and not worry about what material aka significant gathering time and RNG we're losing. It would probably end mob-training overnight.
Just a thought...
They were YOUR suggestions, I simply quoted them.
In fact, I have not even provided an opinion of what I think will or will not work in this thread so you assuming I have is comical.
The only point I have made is that the system you have passed judgement on that you stated needs to be canned and something else needs to be done because it can NEVER be properly fixed, is a system that Steven has stated that we really have not even seen yet as the current system is intentionally overtuned, missing mechanics, and has some bugs to be worked out.
I won't stoop to your personal attacks but I would like to offer some sincere advice that might improve the quality of your posting here on the forum.
When posting, slow down and take time to read what you are typing and reread before hitting send.
You might want to watch your wording and refrain from starting a sentence with 'what you would have to do' or 'the other option' as it leads to the appearance you are contradicting yourself. Even this last post, you take statements you have made that I simply quote to show how it appears you are contradicting your initial statement that the system can NEVER be fixed and needs to be canned, and you somehow twist it into me having a stance on the validity of the statements you made when I never shared any opinion on this? 🤔
Also, I suggest focusing on replying to actual points people have made rather than twisting their words for your own agenda as it just looks silly.
The fact that you literally twisted Kerrai's statement to almost the exact opposite to fit your narrative and talking points didn't surprise me entirely, it just made me laugh out loud.😉
I am curious, when you say you have not attacked a single player, are you referring to attacking a non-combatant that does not wish to pvp or anyone, even a flagged player?
I love pvp as well and I have not had an issue finding it, nor have I gone red once. I am curious to why you are not finding pvp when so many players flag up in the open world?
Yes it does. the system literally doesn't work at all without PvP, you need to PvP to kill the corrupted person. If you don't then there is no punishment.
It is the fact that it is overtuned (red on one PK) and some of the bugs that need to be work out (such as going red when someone switched off combat mid fight and the pvp status falls off, or is positioning mounts so that the death of the mount results in red) that is the real issue right now in alpha. [/quote]
No this goes beyond that. Even if you get the system working exactly as described it will still have loop holes that allow people to never get punished, and pitfalls that punish people which shouldn't be punish.
No it wont.
Look I'm going to break this down for you.
Corruption works like this. Person A attacks person B. Person B doesn't fight back and dies. Person A is now corrupt. Person A is punished when ANY person attacks and kills them.
The system needs; the ability for ANY person to kill the perpetrator, and the ability for that person to loot the gear immediately.
Every single person in the game falls into that category including people that will give you all your gear back.
Any light restriction will be easily circumvented.
Any heavy restriction, like restricting it to just bounty hunters will cause people to track where they are and only engage in the behavior while they aren't around, assuming they are again not a friend that can just hand them their gear back.
Which is why this system will NEVER work, because the punishment can ALWAYS be circumvented.
Honestly they need to come up with a completely new system, not an overly complex flagging system.
Neither. Mainly because most of my testing involves gathering / crafting. So when I'm out on a resource run, I don't want to risk losing a chunk of my gatherables (which typically has at least a few purple / orange). It's all downside for me, and "fun pvp" isn't part of the equation. It's also pretty rare to see a flagged player where I'm gathering as well - so initiating combat would be 95% on greens.
You cannot fix that, the gear needs to be transferable, the gear also needs to exist.
You are literally forming your own arguments and debating them with yourself again. 🤣
I cannot follow you down your rabbit hole as I do not have the patience for attempting to have productive discussions with people that either skirt having them, or are incapable of having them.
Just go back and re-read my point that you are passing a complete fail judgement on a system that we have been repeatedly told is a work in progress and is not working as intended, instead of turning around and stating 'if the system is working exactly as described' 🤦♀️
While I won't follow you down your rabbit hole, I will address one statement you made:
Currently, a corrupted player is punished in a variety of ways for going corrupt. Even if there were no other players on the server or anyone to pvp, the corruption would still negatively impact the player with a status effect so your statement that without pvp there is no punishment is not accurate. A corrupted player will be attacked by guards in nodes making normal game play more difficult with potential limited access to things such as storage, specific vendors, the marketplace ect. The player may have stat dampening on things like lower hp, mana and damage, making it more difficult or slower to work off the corruption by killing mobs. The dampening effects could result in higher chance of death while working off the corruption by killing mobs and loss of gear by not being able to get back to the death loot pile in time or difficulty of access of it by dying at the feet of a crystal golem. A player not being able to change to non-combatant status and subsequently being targeted by others players and potentially dropping gear is currently a major part of the overtuned system, but it is not the only penalty.
We are currently testing a very crude form of the corruption system and the devs are aware of players killing each other to work off the corruption quicker, but that does not suggest that this path removes all negative impact as xp debt will still occur.
If you feel that changes should be made to what you are seeing, it would be more productive to submit the feedback without dooming an entire system we have not even fully experienced yet. Anyone with experience in testing games, knows how this work. We supply feedback on what we see but if a dev has taken the time to tell us the system currently in place is intentionally overtuned and not working as intended, try to keep it in mind when submitting the feedback and refrain from demanding the entire system has to go. 😲
The corruption system will be worked on but I do not expect that focus anytime soon as steven wants PKing of non-combatants minimized for alpha. I have submitted my feedback for immediate improvements to lesson the chance of players unintentionally going red (what I feel is the greatest issue at this point) and this should help encourage more open world pvp.
Am I as bent out of shape as you about guilds or friends being able to kill someone to work off their corruption and pick up their gear, no. The person is still negatively impacted and inconvenienced as are those around him that need to run to him to grab gear or help work off the corruption and the player will still be losing xp ect.
It is extremely unlikely that one kill of a non-combatant will turn anyone red down the road. It is also unlikely that gear will drop with the first level of corruption down the road or if it does, a limitation on the number of drops and less focus on weapons ect. It is likely that everything from how corruption is worked off to what can drop will eventually be tweaked.
Ah okay this makes sense. I see a lot of flagged players and have no issue flagging up for combat but it makes sense you would not see as much if you are out gathering or crafting. It also makes sense that you are not intentionally flagging as you do not want to lose resources so you are using the overtuned corruption system to prevent deaths. The fact that you have only experienced one death, shows that the system is working as Steven intended for alpha, even if friends and/or guildies can assist corrupted players with retrieving lost gear and working off the corruption.
The system is currently overtuned and in your favor right now. Steven wants to minimize people killing players that have no desire to pvp (for whatever reason) and is trying to balance his PVP and PVE playerbase.
Currently, PVP players are complaining that it is overtuned (we know it is and it is intended) and about the bugs and issues that result in consensual pvp (two players flagged) ending up in corruption and harsh penalties. Although I do not think there is a big shortage of pvp for people that enjoy it and look for it, I do think there is definitely less PKing of non-combatants. I believe that once some of the bugs are worked out that result in corruption outside of intentionally engaging and killing a non-combatant, open world consensual pvp will definitely rise.
My biggest concern is that because it is so overtuned right now for alpha, the PVE playerbase will have difficulty once the system is worked on and bugs and issues are removed and players no longer go red after one non-combatant kill so more non-consensual interaction between PVE and PVP players will be taking place.
Before adding any more penalty such as gear deletion on death, there needs to be an option to 100% guarentee never ever to go corrupt (so if you check it, you can never accidentally go corrupt). Going corrupt should be a deliberate choice, not some jank mechanics that can make you lose an item that cost you a ton of time and mats to craft.
The only way to 100% guarantee not getting flagged is abstinence. Sorry.
I agree, bugs and issues need to be worked out as players should not go corrupt from engaging with someone else that is in a combatant status at the time of engagement.
Whether this unintentional corruption results from mounts being used in combat or someone that changes status during combat, this needs to be addressed.
I have suggested a timer where once someone is in combatant status and engaged, that status cannot fall off until 'x' amount of time after combat ceases.
Let's say the timer is 30 seconds or 1 minute. In your situation where the person crossed out of lawless during a fight, if you were still pursuing and doing any damage where they could not stay out of combat for a full 30 seconds or a minute, their combat status could not change. Same if someone decided to ALT f during combat, their status would not change until actually out of combat for that 30 seconds or a minute
There are plenty of players flagging up now but I think the amount would be much greater if a couple of these issues are worked out.
Not getting flagged or not getting corrupted?
Part of my feedback came from flagging and experiencing issues but that is the thing about testing, we need to actually engage in the systems and mechanics to find issues, offer valid feedback and improve the game.
Even knowing the risk, I still flag
Yep, it's not like re-inventing the wheel either. Ultima Online has worked like this forever; 2 people engaged in PVP will stay combattant flag to each other as long as the fight keeps going. I would be surprised if this wasn't the direction the game is taking and current system still has placeholder jank atm.
Not getting corrupted.