Risk, Reward, Difficulty & FUN: What Intrepid is Missing

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

In PvP, you are fighting the player. That doesn't really change all that much from game to game. The combat/PvP system is in there, but it is really the other player you are fighting. PvP players are always fighting with the developers to make the combat system matter less and the player matter more (via saying they want skill to matter more). This is literally asking for developers to make games where you are playing against the same players as in every other PvP MMO.

The thing is, this is what PvP players want. They want player skill to matter more, meaning the games combat system matters less, meaning you are primarily playing against the rival player - making PvP across all games essentially the same.

Yes. Which is great for an FPS, where player skills should be most important.
But, in an RPG, character skills should be most important.

Azherae

(only responding to the 'ping', no intention to derail, because it only helps the discussion if people actually have all the information)

Nebula Island?

iccer

Azherae wrote: »

(only responding to the 'ping', no intention to derail, because it only helps the discussion if people actually have all the information)

Nebula Island?

I did quit long before that update, so it was based on my experience from the first ~3 months after the game released.

From what I've seen, Nebula island feels like a separate zone, disconnected from the main continent - almost like an instanced area. Like most things in the game, where you just teleport to it, rather than traveling through the world to get to it - or rather, without giving you an option to just run into it out there in the world.
You can correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't played it, that's just the feeling I get from a few videos I've skimmed through.


I am downloading the game again, because I really do want to like it, so we'll see how it goes

I say I do want to like it, because it almost does stuff the way I would prefer them, but it just fails with the execution in certain areas.

Azherae

I don't think you will like it. Your understanding of Nebula is correct.

Throne and Liberty is still, and will continue to be, a game for a demographic that is adjacent to, but does not generally overlap with, the demographic that wants to play Ashes of Creation.

But neither TL nor Ashes is 'where they should be' yet. TL needed things like Nebula Island just as much as Ashes needs to not have them. TL needed their Housing update, to match all those people who want to decorate their house but don't want to deal with what that means in Ashes.

On issues of things like 'Economy Type' and 'Enhancing/Enchanting' the two games could be the same, or there could be a third game that splits the difference (I can't say I know of anyone from either side who would be the target audience of that game since I haven't met anyone who thinks Ashes economy/enhancing is good, but I assume those people are just silent).

There's no reason I can think of for you to go back to/retry TL. Everything I understand says 'that game is not for you, and that's ok'.

Azherae

What I will add is some Nebula Island information just so that we do not think that a certain approach is a solution.

Nebula Island has multiple sections, 1 Peace, 4 PvP always. You can navigate freely from the 'Peace' one to three of the others. The last one has a gate so 'winner takes all' for a time.

You can flee from the edge of the PvP ones into the peace one, even enough so that there is a bit of PvE to be had.

Most areas have the same drops, but the Peace area's mobs are sparse compared to the PvP areas.

All of that works. Because if you find a time you are alone or your party is the only party in Peace area, you do almost as well as you would in the PvP area. If the PvP area is clear, you can PvE farm it and maybe form up with people around who don't want to PvP you and would rather cooperate. If you choose one of the easier navigation points you can PvP area and when you lose fall back to the PvE area, catch your breath, then dive in again for another chance at PvP-ing whoever is there.

The mobs are basically no challenge except stacked up (I can solo the entire PvE camp next to the PvP area) but this is 'fine' because the drops aren't great anyway in either area.

And yet, this still didn't work for the reason iccer stated. Big guilds monopolizing. You can only spend X hours per WEEK in this area, Peace or PvP. But they used to have recharge stones you could sell on AH, and that was how it happened.

Now those can't be purchased. There is no matchmaking, but it's at least clear that if you get pushed out of an area, calling your whole guild to stop whatever they are doing to teleport in to help you push out someone else at the cost of their own time isn't ideal.

This is the 'equivalent' of 'the disincentive to travel' found in games like BDO and maybe one day Ashes. TL also now has bigger dungeons that are too big to lock down (and not necessarily worth it), but I'd bet that as soon as the next expansion releases, the first dungeon to open in that zone will be monopolized every ingame night by whatever guild wins, unlike now, where I can see shouts for grouping in dungeons during game night-time (disclaimer, I don't play on the most cutthroat server of the region obv).

tl;dr - The only difference between Nebula Island working (for what it was) and not working, was 'the ability of strong guilds to sit there indefinitely and lock out others', and they did this even when it cost them money, to the point where I have heard that some players would 'swipe' just to pay to stay longer. Bear in mind this game has PvP events that do encompass whole zones, WarGames, and arenas. This was not 'Oh I came online and I want to PvP but can't find a place to do it'.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In PvP, you are fighting the player. That doesn't really change all that much from game to game. The combat/PvP system is in there, but it is really the other player you are fighting. PvP players are always fighting with the developers to make the combat system matter less and the player matter more (via saying they want skill to matter more). This is literally asking for developers to make games where you are playing against the same players as in every other PvP MMO.

The thing is, this is what PvP players want. They want player skill to matter more, meaning the games combat system matters less, meaning you are primarily playing against the rival player - making PvP across all games essentially the same.

Yes. Which is great for an FPS, where player skills should be most important.
But, in an RPG, character skills should be most important.

Absolutely.

The more I look at and discuss the notion of PvP focused MMORPG's, the more I think they just don't work. The core of what makes an MMO good and the core of what makes PvP good are not entierly compatible. PvP makes sense in an MMORPG in the same way crafting makes sense - it can and probably should be an important part of the game, but it should never be the focus.

It should be a support player, not the main character.

Aszkalon

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

this thread became a chat

Jepp. Kinda at least.

This reminds me, like out of the Blue -> i follow right now at least THREE cool and promising looking Games and they are still in Development. none of them is finished yet.

One is Enshrouded. (<- AWESOME Game)

One is "The forever Winter". Cold, harsh. Cruel, apocalyptic. Depressing yet amazing. A horrifying ingame World with it's own Charme.

And the last One is Ashes of Creation. The Game that will have what no other MMO has until now, i think. It will definitely be awesome.