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Microtransactions and the possibility of it ruining the game.

Hi everyone,

Heard about the game yesterday from LazyPeon and it looks like the perfect MMO most of us have been looking for for a long time.

As there is no search function, i couldn't find any similar topics so here it goes. Also i know it is still very early to talk about these things but all developers and publishers should be made aware of it.

Archeage was in my humble opinion the best sandbox MMO ever released until Trion gave in to their greed and turned the game into a P2W fest. You can never win by doing shady business such as lying to your customers either. Archeage would still be popular if it wasn't for Trion. They possibly made a ton of money in 3 years but their reputation is destroyed. The game could still be alive if they showed even a small bit of common sense but yeah we know how that went.

Your referral system motto is great, you are giving people cash back to be used in store but i suggest you keep it cosmetics and mounts only. The moment you start selling crafting related stuff (Assuming crafting will be a big part of the game) is the moment the game will collapse. You can make just as much money by selling very cool looking outfits.

I'm tired of seeing the games i like disappear because of poor microtransaction decisions and dishonesty.
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Comments

  • from what the dev's have told us so far "There will be no p2w market in Ashes. Only cosmetics, pets, mounts etc"
  • This is great to hear. Even LotRO, the one MMO that had purely cosmetic store for so long started selling stuff that lets you gear up fast so i'm afraid of this becoming the norm. Some see it as a quick way to make cash but they fail to realize it hurts the game in the long run.
  • I think the best F2P model out there is Warframe. You can obtain Virtually anything in the game for free as long as you are willing to grind a bit more than the paying player. The beast weapons in game cannot even be bought with in game currency but have to be farmed. Most of the grind doesn't even take long, you can obtain most things with 1-2 days worth of farming. They also give you random daily log-in bonuses that can range from useful items to a 75% discount on the currency store and often buying said currency doesn't feel like a scam. This currency is also tradeable for items only so it doesn't reach insane levels.

    If the devs can replicate or improve upon this business model I think this game will enjoy consistent success and player base just like Warframe
  • I think the Devs have a very strong view on not making the game P2W so I can feel sure that it will only be cosmetics and mounts available to buy, and from the referral system, that means that you can get these things for having friends. Great! So I think that there isnt much to worry about the game Devs running into the same trap as others to get more money
  • Ok, so we get cosmetics to buy, but will it be possible to sell them from one player to another? If so, it can still be abused in p2w, because people with money buy cosmetics, sell it for ingame currency and wola! he can buy all the gear he wants... so will it be a thing selling costumes from player to player? I haven't seen this clerified, so if you point me in the right direction I will be on my way!
  • Cosmetic stuff is OK in every game however a game with a monthly sub should never have anything in the market that is a "must have"
  • Agreed if it is cosmetics only and like @Martinik said; Warframe has (imo) the best in game store with everything in the store being obtainable normally in the game with a bit more grinding. Also some of the items being able to be payed for with in game currency. Only side effect will be the "gold sellers" as with every mmo that has a currency that can be traded. I hope they maintain their stance with cosmetic only for as long as they game runs.
  • My preference would be to have NO in game cash store with a subscription. Everything should be obtained with game play.

    However, I understand that MMOs these days want more income than a subscription provides, I just wish there was another way.
    People say costumes, and there goes a market for Tailors. Mounts, there goes a market for breeders. ETC.

    I'm an old MMO player who remembers the days before Cash Shops, longingly.
  • I'm just getting into Ashes of Creation, but from what I've read and seen in developers updates and such, I believe it will be balanced microtransactions.

    The developers are gamers themselves. They know that microtransactions are bad and shouldn't be in any game, but it is necessary to support the game, hence why they will have a cosmetic shop. I only hope that they truly understand that XP and currency (do AoC use gold?) boosts are P2W and not Pay for convenience. Especially in a game that is so dependent on player progression for how the world shapes.

    I will never complain about microtransactions for pure cosmetic items. I will however stand up if they add special boosts to shop cosmetics. For example, mounts has 10% more movement speed compared to same rarity mounts found in the game. Or certain costumes add more HP and MP.
  • I hope the devs will follow Riot's example with League of Legends, where the only things you can't buy with the in-game currency are cosmetic skins. Sure you can pay real money to avoid a bit of grinding, but that isn't really an issue once you get to max level.
  • Some players fear the worst that a game can become as illustrated in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0">Extra Credits vid on Bad Monetization</a>. Because of the bad designs F2P has gotten a bad stigma (as rightly so in many cases).

    Tho' come to think of it, the "money bomb" talked about would be fun if kept to holidays and similar events.

    Anywhooo, ESO had a sub based model and it has changed to a hybrid sub and/or cash shop model. If a franchise with many games and a built-in fan base had to change then it doesn't bode well for the sub model. Hopefully we'll see enough players subscribe to keep AoC afloat without having to resort to anything beyond cosmetics and mounts.
  • With all the features this game has even at this early stage, i'm almost certain it will attract a huge amount of players who were let down by so many other MMOs, so if they can stay on the right track the revenue they get from subs should be pretty high. I'm also wondering what the VIP package will include but it's probably not the time to discuss that matter 4-5 years prior to launch :P
  • <strong>Most people dont even understand why p2w is all over the place in Asian MMO's. </strong>

    If you're living in Asia especially in Korea you would not complain at all about p2w cash shops. Why?

    1. You can link your CreditCard to a certain game/company. Every time you spend money on something no matter what it is you will get a certain % of the money you've spend as cash shop currency for a certain game or for your game account.

    2. 90% of the time when you order food you will get a shit ton of coupons. However while in EU/NA you usually get food Gift certificates when ordering food (or if you purchase stuff online) you will get a lot of game codes in Asia/Korea instead.

    3. They love gambling. RNG crates are in literally every single game no matter what genre. No idea why but it seems like they dislike games without RNG crates.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Once an Asian game gets released in EU/NA no matter what publisher it is - they usually dont have the power over the cash shop. It's the asian developer who decides what items will be on the cash shop not the EU/NA publisher. The only thing they can do is simply tell them what the community is asking for - however they usually dont care at all about the community since it's just an easy and quick way for them to earn even more money if they release there games in EU/NA.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Since AoC is made and published by a western company i'm actually 90% sure that we wont see any p2w in the cash shop at all. Not to mention that the devs clearly dislike p2w.

    Asian games have a 100% chance to be p2w within the first 6 months after release.
    ArcheAge - Black Desert - Tera - Revelation - Bless - ect ect

    They all baited players with little to no p2w at the start and then suddenly turned into cash grab games.
    At least most people where smart enough to refund there entire money once these games went p2w mode.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    On the other hand you have several MMO's who where mostly made in EU/NA that have barely any p2w elements and generated by far a much higher playerbase because of that.

    WoW: 10 million active accounts after almost every single new Addon
    ESO: 8 million active accounts across all platforms in 02.17 after the Addon announcement
    GW2: No official numbers but it's far away from beeing a dead game

    <em>And then you have Asian MMO's..</em>

    Other than FFXIV they are all so low when it comes to player population BDO has 250k in 2k17 and i dont even want to now the amount of<strong> active players</strong> for most other MMO's.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    If done right a fair b2p or p2p MMO with a decent cash shop like GW/ESO will be more successful in the long run.

    i f d o n e r i g h t
  • P2W is a devastating game model that does seem to destroy a game's community. It does not dissuade the hardcore base players in my experiences though. I think it's a terrible idea, and I am hugely relieved to hear that they have no intention to implement this.

    I do not really have anything against microtransactions though. The reason they are so popular is because of how much revenue they can generate for the game. If this leads to a decreasing (or no) subscription costs, even better!
  • Skullflower reminded me about RNG Drop Boxes.....please, by all that is holy, don't have these in Ashes.
  • My worry is that there will be the really cool cosmetics on the shop, and then the moderate to bad ones in the game. I would also prefer having different armors in the game that have unique and cool looks, especially the hard to get endgame ones rather then cosmetic costumes being the only way to change your look. Although im not completely against the idea of being able to get costumes to "transmog" the gear you have. I am also worried about how hard it is to get cosmetics in game. I would rather it not be super grindy and tedious to get any cool cosmetics in game, or you can just pay 20$ and get an even better looking cosmetic.
  • [quote quote=7665]My worry is that there will be the really cool cosmetics on the shop, and then the moderate to bad ones in the game. I would also prefer having different armors in the game that have unique and cool looks, especially the hard to get endgame ones rather then cosmetic costumes being the only way to change your look. Although im not completely against the idea of being able to get costumes to “transmog” the gear you have. I am also worried about how hard it is to get cosmetics in game. I would rather it not be super grindy and tedious to get any cool cosmetics in game, or you can just pay 20$ and get an even better looking cosmetic.

    [/quote]

    It's been said that the same cosmetics in the shop will be available in game as well. Honestly, as I get older, I'm able to just shell out the $20 because I have more money, but less time to grind. Some people I know actually enjoy grinding, and others are into it by necessity. When I was in college playing Lineage 2, all my money went to books (beer) and food (craft beer) so I given the option between paying and grinding, i took grinding.

    I'm glad we have an option here, and that we aren't forced into a situation where we are forced to grind vs pay for anything that's not cosmetic.
  • So by the sounds of it, it'll be a "pay 4 convenience " style which is ok I think.

    I generally thumb my nose at B2P/Subscription games with cash shops. More so B2P because they sneak in items such as boosters and the sorts. The cash shop here seems it'll be "well you can grind this fancy looking cosmetic or just pay up front". Of course it's great on paper but we'll see how it's executed. Hopefully it'll be something not TOO tedious to where it'll be a "well just throw money at it I'll never get it" and the sorts.
  • [quote quote=7383]from what the dev’s have told us so far “There will be no p2w market in Ashes. Only cosmetics, pets, mounts etc”

    [/quote]

    I hope that they will stand by that.
    Micro transactions have ruined games many times over.
    I sincerely hope they will limit it do that.
  • [quote quote=7665]My worry is that there will be the really cool cosmetics on the shop, and then the moderate to bad ones in the game. I would also prefer having different armors in the game that have unique and cool looks, especially the hard to get endgame ones rather then cosmetic costumes being the only way to change your look. Although im not completely against the idea of being able to get costumes to “transmog” the gear you have. I am also worried about how hard it is to get cosmetics in game. I would rather it not be super grindy and tedious to get any cool cosmetics in game, or you can just pay 20$ and get an even better looking cosmetic.

    [/quote]

    I also would prefer to have at least a certain amount of extravagant looking armors (depending on the style of the game overall) and if you want more pay for it.

    Additionally it would be cool not to mix cash shop and ingame costumes like ArcheAge did. I mean it's pretty stupid to offer the same "skin" in a gambling box or grind a few weeks for it.
  • The implementation of micro-transaction/p2w is a challenge, not the least why is due to everyone having different definitions of what constitutes it. And that's on top of making sure the game is even sustainable in the first place.

    Having observed how it was done with AA (and hearing 2nd hand about BDO), it seems like one of the causes of issues for people is if there's a dramatic change to it. "It was fine until you added X" or "you said you wouldn't do it and then you did it" seem common.

    Cosmetics only is a big promise and one I hope that isn't too difficult to stick to.
  • All games you talk about are KR games... Almost all KR games are p2w :)
  • [quote quote=7393]I think the best F2P model out there is Warframe. You can obtain Virtually anything in the game for free as long as you are willing to grind a bit more than the paying player. The beast weapons in game cannot even be bought with in game currency but have to be farmed. Most of the grind doesn’t even take long, you can obtain most things with 1-2 days worth of farming. They also give you random daily log-in bonuses that can range from useful items to a 75% discount on the currency store and often buying said currency doesn’t feel like a scam. This currency is also tradeable for items only so it doesn’t reach insane levels.

    If the devs can replicate or improve upon this business model I think this game will enjoy consistent success and player base just like Warframe

    [/quote]

    You cannot have a F2P MMO without making it P2W. So no It either stays P2P or countless people leave the game period and it becomes nothing but ArcheAge because you need Whales to paying for people who dont pay. There is no Improvement upon a P2P because you either pay or go somewhere else.
  • The game needs to be subscription based. It'll help a lot with keeping micro transactions void.
  • Please no sub within the sub like extra inventory for a month for this much $$$. NO CONVENIENCE ITEM AS WELL because that shit becomes an advantage to most people who are willing to take advantage of the system. Other than that, if they stick to cosmetics only, I wouldn't mind at all.
  • Honestly they should just skip the cash shop.
    Having both a cash shop AND a sub-fee was one of the major arguments against The Secret World when it launched (not to mention all the other issues), and as a result it was doomed to failure.

    Just take whatever you where going to put in the cash shop and let players craft it instead. If you want more long-term cash you should make DLCs or even better full expansions for it.

    Oh and for the love of god don't sell life-time subscriptions because all the dedicated players will buy them and eventually you will lose most of your future revenue.
  • I believe a cash shop is not evil as most of us mentioned if it's there exclusively for cosmetics and mounts. Yes it destroys some crafting possibilities for players but it's a reliable way for us to show our support. Keeping sub numbers high at all times i don't think is very feasible in an f2p game. The only issue is most devs or publishers give in to their greed and pretty much transform their cosmetic cash shop into a p2w one.
  • [quote quote=9745]Honestly they should just skip the cash shop.
    Having both a cash shop AND a sub-fee was one of the major arguments against The Secret World when it launched (not to mention all the other issues), and as a result it was doomed to failure.

    Just take whatever you where going to put in the cash shop and let players craft it instead. If you want more long-term cash you should make DLCs or even better full expansions for it.

    Oh and for the love of god don’t sell life-time subscriptions because all the dedicated players will buy them and eventually you will lose most of your future revenue.

    [/quote]

    I agree with every part of this.
    I simply don't trust a cash shop and what it could become, no matter how good the intentions are from Intrepid. I get that if the game ends up not doing so well they might have to go the Microtransaction route and they'll already have a shop set up, hopefully that doesn't happen. I would rather they trust their sub model and build upon that.
    The idea of lifetime subscriptions can really backfire on them if regular subs decline and a large part of your player base is pretty much playing for free This kind of happened with Lotro and they ended up having to go f2p. I haven't seen many lifetime subs offered in other games and I reckon there's a good reason for that.
    Ultimately I'm delighted Ashes will be a sub game and that's the most important thing for me.
  • My vote would be for a subscription as well. I'm fine with cash shop but I differ a little from others here in that I think there is a hybrid model I will call P2CUA (pay to catch up - almost). What happens in many games of this ilk is that after a few months, it can feel to new players that they will never be able to catch up to the front of the curve without day and night grinding for weeks on end. So how does a more casual player not feel hopelessly behind? Take EVE for example...the mountain in front of a new player who is ambitious must seem like the Great ice Wall of GoT.

    Once a substantial portion of the player base has achieved certain levels (or whatever the metric that most makes sense is) I think it is okay to have items like exp boosts that only help lower levels advance more quickly and only to a point still a ways below the top of the curve. I think GW2 has something like this, where they only work for characters below a certain level and only add a helpful but not game-breaking amount of benefit.

    I'm by no means sure this is a good thing, but at the moment, I wouldn't be opposed to it showing up slowly over time as it would still require players to do the last 20% (based on wherever the end-line is) on their own with no help. But it would generate revenue (which, believe it or not is very important) for the developer/publisher and help keep the influx of new players more steady since the carrot doesn't continue to move farther away with each passing month.
  • Purely cosmetic microtransactions won't have a huge impact, I'm on the fence about it, as I know Dev's need to eat but considering the alpha isn't even out yet, I suppose we'd best wait awhile before we can start even thinking to make speculation.
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