This comes down to a matter of "gamer psychology" in my opinion.
I've always been interested in a system where when you downed someone in PvP, you get a "ransom". For example I kill Player A, I now have his gear, but he can pay to get it back. When he dies and I loot him, instead of his gear, I get an item I can turn into an NPC and Player A can go buy his stuff back. I get money and they get their gear. If he doesn't buy it back within a certain amount of time, then I get to keep the gear.
This I feel would make PvP rewarding, but not too punishing.
A full loot game promotes two negative things: Zerging and Salt.
The first is smart game play. In a world where you can lose it all, safety in numbers. But then on the reverse, you see zergs jumping solo or small group players in a fury of 5sec battles, then it's over. No one enjoys getting swarmed by a group of 30 players while out gathering. And honestly, how a fun and a profitable is it to jump a single guy with 29 of your friends. Then that person gets his guild, zergs you alone and the cycle continues without any true PvP happening because not enough people are willing to risk the gear they spent all week farming up. And therefore, the second thing is born, people get Salty.
Don't get me wrong, I think an MMO needs PvP rewards and consequence, but not at the expense of player satisfaction. Every full loot PvP game I've played is just a zerg-fest. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Instead, why not have a system where your inventory drops, or you drop some gold. Or perhaps one piece of gear drops. Maybe it's a ransom... :)
[quote quote=6753]This comes down to a matter of “gamer psychology” in my opinion.
I’ve always been interested in a system where when you downed someone in PvP, you get a “ransom”. For example I kill Player A, I now have his gear, but he can pay to get it back. When he dies and I loot him, instead of his gear, I get an item I can turn into an NPC and Player A can go buy his stuff back. I get money and they get their gear. If he doesn’t buy it back within a certain amount of time, then I get to keep the gear.
This I feel would make PvP rewarding, but not too punishing.
[/quote]
I sort of like this idea the problem with most open world games I've played recently is actually using the open world PvP system is way too punishing and gives very few rewards making it a non factor for the most part unless you really want to steal a farming spot or can pay to remove the negative value placed on your character afterwards depending on the game. Back a long time ago I liked runescapes system where I think you dropped 3 random items from your inventory on death or something like that? then include some sort of flag system maybe a bounty hunting board so common PvPers can be killed safely while making bonus profit on top of the item drop.
[quote quote=6748]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-743" rel="nofollow">coryyroc wrote:</a></div> anyone know if it will be full / partial loot? im really hoping they dont give into the carebears (+ nearly every mmo is designed around them), it ruins gaming i like the harsh penaltys on pvp but to put risks like that surely means high reward right? dont get me wrong ill still watch the developement if not but since i saw a post up about kickstarter id gladly pledge right now if there is finally a quality mmo with open full loot pvp.
stealing from houses?
also do we have any info on the combat system i saw it being tabtarget but more free to paraphrase. any idea if its more an assisted free aim? i just dislike how nearly all mmos use tab target, it removes most of the skill from the game :/
i apologize in advance if it any of theese have been answered but i dont have time to go digging recently.
</blockquote> Please dont tell me that action combat requires any kind of skill over tab-target. Action combat is just as easy as any other combat system unless you’re missing 80% of your brain cells. BDO was the best example of how bad action combat actually is, since it’s just braindead aoe spam simulator.
[quote quote=814]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-772" rel="nofollow">wpmaura wrote:</a></div> full loot is needed if you want to create any type of real sandbox economy
</blockquote> Not really, armour and weapon durability can easily do that even without full loot.
I’ve read so many times that full loot system makes games more intense and you feel the risk, but the be honest that’s just full of hogwash, what you do is you craft or make other craft friend/guild plenty of backup armour and weapons you just stash in your bank so you can easily refit when you lose everything. There are no risk whatsoever with full loot system when you have plenty of backup gear in bank, so just let that one go.
I know because I had a lot of backup gear in my bank in Darkfall, had a lot of ready to go fitted ships in EVE.
[/quote]
From the guy that obviously has never played a full loot game for more than 10 minutes. I've played them all and full loot makes your skin curl...love the feeling. We definitely need to have some risk reward and full loot is a great way to make that happen...very minimum we need partial loot in this game.
[quote quote=853]This is a tough topic for me. With 100% loot on PKs, I’m afraid that 90% of people will have “generic” gear that achieves a certain ROI (return on investment). Gear that costs 50% of “elite” gear and yield 80-90% of the effect. There will, of course, be tiers of this generic gear based on levels, but nonetheless it will be generic. Think of Runescape, back in the day; milthril, adamantine, rune. In this case, gear becomes of little value or significance, except for the ultra-elite PKers on the hunt or siege based guild combat. While some would say this is what PvP should be, I believe it could alienate “carebears” or “casuals” who would just stop trying, since they couldn’t compete. Implementation of a Mystic Forge as in Guild Wars 2 could perhaps lend value to masses of generic gear, and then elite gear could be had via crafting or Pking the generic gear, throwing it into a lottery, and winning a certain amount of time. Then again, this sounds like a boring version of gear recycling.
With limited loot, say 75%, or perhaps certain levels of gear being “safe,” players have a goal of of at least acquiring some elite pieces through grinding that they wouldn’t lose in an instant to a higher level PKer. Perhaps players could select which pieces are “safe,” but that number either disappears or is diminished when they flag. There would be the possibility of a player forgetting to secure certain gear, or having more nice pieces than can be protected. Or there might be even more PvP against those that are known PvPers that might have their spoils still on their character at any given time.
[/quote]
You talk as if this elusive thing called full loot has never been tried. LOL. There are multiple games that have succeeded and implemented it. If you think people will just wear junk that isn't true at all. If the pvp is skillful which still remains to be seen in AOC the person that continually wears junk gear will continually get beat by the person wearing good gear unless they are just a much more skilled player. You will have times where you will want to dress up and be the strongest and there will be times that you simply want to just farm and not risk a perfect set of armor, but you will know that if you go out in scrub gear you will be at a severe disadvantage.
[quote quote=6983]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-853" rel="nofollow">Nlytnd wrote:</a></div> This is a tough topic for me. With 100% loot on PKs, I’m afraid that 90% of people will have “generic” gear that achieves a certain ROI (return on investment). Gear that costs 50% of “elite” gear and yield 80-90% of the effect. There will, of course, be tiers of this generic gear based on levels, but nonetheless it will be generic. Think of Runescape, back in the day; milthril, adamantine, rune. In this case, gear becomes of little value or significance, except for the ultra-elite PKers on the hunt or siege based guild combat. While some would say this is what PvP should be, I believe it could alienate “carebears” or “casuals” who would just stop trying, since they couldn’t compete. Implementation of a Mystic Forge as in Guild Wars 2 could perhaps lend value to masses of generic gear, and then elite gear could be had via crafting or Pking the generic gear, throwing it into a lottery, and winning a certain amount of time. Then again, this sounds like a boring version of gear recycling.
With limited loot, say 75%, or perhaps certain levels of gear being “safe,” players have a goal of of at least acquiring some elite pieces through grinding that they wouldn’t lose in an instant to a higher level PKer. Perhaps players could select which pieces are “safe,” but that number either disappears or is diminished when they flag. There would be the possibility of a player forgetting to secure certain gear, or having more nice pieces than can be protected. Or there might be even more PvP against those that are known PvPers that might have their spoils still on their character at any given time.
</blockquote> You talk as if this elusive thing called full loot has never been tried. LOL. There are multiple games that have succeeded and implemented it. If you think people will just wear junk that isn’t true at all. If the pvp is skillful which still remains to be seen in AOC the person that continually wears junk gear will continually get beat by the person wearing good gear unless they are just a much more skilled player. You will have times where you will want to dress up and be the strongest and there will be times that you simply want to just farm and not risk a perfect set of armor, but you will know that if you go out in scrub gear you will be at a severe disadvantage.
[/quote]
People think of gear today as Do dungeons 50 times to get gear, or PVP arenas 100 times which is where you wouldnt want full PVP loot. Honestly they make full PVP loot a lot of players will not play and they really need players; we cannot be a game like Darkfall or Albion Online
I loved the insurance idea.... that could make another big impact in the meaning of sandbox: The economy is build around the player based market which means the items or services offered could also include more complicated systems like insurances or medical services or estate agencies. On top a bounty system which brands you as a murder and the more often u kill the more information will be leaked. Kind of like: - u killed once outside regular pvp just for the killing or the loot your general appearance will be leaked in form of bounty posters but still without name.... (realistic) NPC Police will look for you but wont take it very serious - u killed twice for lower reasons the posters will leak your name and it will be shown over your head when passed by, Police NPC will start to patrol the areas around the kills - u killed three times out of greed or passion the poster will leak a general description where to find you and it will be updated dayly, NPC will now call the Police and call for help into the chat in that area which could be just as big as the original node - at four kills your player name will be depicted red even outside regular pvp and the depiction on the posters is pretty accurate as well as the location is updated every hour, NPC Police will now use dogs which increase their radius of sight and will give away your location in chat - when u managed to survive until the fifth kill players will be even allerted when within your highest spellrange, Police will now spawn when u have been seen by either NPC or players and will help to take you down ... of course on every stage the police will become stronger and bigger groups When caught all items which are not sold to dealers or other players. If u just stole stuff, the stages will be the same but without being killed for it by the police and players will have the option to take you to the police or kill you which would have a penalty as well. Then ofc breaking in and stealing should be an option even between players. There insurances come in and the skills of the victim in securing doors and windwos could also be part housing and/or a profession. Banks should be pretty safe and only be able to be cracked by a group of players with different skills, but the loot is bigger then... so is the penalty system. There should also be player driven banks which scurity can be increased by investing currency into perks.
There's about 0 chance that they will do full loot or even partial loot really, that said there's nothing quite like calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a carebear to facilitate a meaningful discussion.
PVP looting has never been done right in my opinion. It is my belief that every player should have a timer that once a week goes off randomly without them knowing when it will be. If they are killed they lose one random item. It could be something they are wearing or it could be something in their bags. It offers a chance at a reward but doesn't break the bank. Not entirely sure this would work though because I think their is players who would simply quit if they lost their best piece by chance. I have always thought it would be a cool way to do it though.
[quote quote=6982]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-814" rel="nofollow">Maurgrim wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-772" rel="nofollow">wpmaura wrote:</a></div> full loot is needed if you want to create any type of real sandbox economy
</blockquote> Not really, armour and weapon durability can easily do that even without full loot.
I’ve read so many times that full loot system makes games more intense and you feel the risk, but the be honest that’s just full of hogwash, what you do is you craft or make other craft friend/guild plenty of backup armour and weapons you just stash in your bank so you can easily refit when you lose everything. There are no risk whatsoever with full loot system when you have plenty of backup gear in bank, so just let that one go.
I know because I had a lot of backup gear in my bank in Darkfall, had a lot of ready to go fitted ships in EVE.
</blockquote> From the guy that obviously has never played a full loot game for more than 10 minutes. I’ve played them all and full loot makes your skin curl…love the feeling. We definitely need to have some risk reward and full loot is a great way to make that happen…very minimum we need partial loot in this game.
[/quote]
Incase you missed it, I sead I've played Darkfall first one for over a year, and I play EVE on and off since may 2003, so yeah been there done that and no my skin don't curl, fun yes for sure it is, but not really a risk of losing anything when I have crapload off backup armour/weapon/ships.
Comments
I've always been interested in a system where when you downed someone in PvP, you get a "ransom". For example I kill Player A, I now have his gear, but he can pay to get it back. When he dies and I loot him, instead of his gear, I get an item I can turn into an NPC and Player A can go buy his stuff back. I get money and they get their gear. If he doesn't buy it back within a certain amount of time, then I get to keep the gear.
This I feel would make PvP rewarding, but not too punishing.
A full loot game promotes two negative things: Zerging and Salt.
The first is smart game play. In a world where you can lose it all, safety in numbers. But then on the reverse, you see zergs jumping solo or small group players in a fury of 5sec battles, then it's over. No one enjoys getting swarmed by a group of 30 players while out gathering. And honestly, how a fun and a profitable is it to jump a single guy with 29 of your friends. Then that person gets his guild, zergs you alone and the cycle continues without any true PvP happening because not enough people are willing to risk the gear they spent all week farming up. And therefore, the second thing is born, people get Salty.
Don't get me wrong, I think an MMO needs PvP rewards and consequence, but not at the expense of player satisfaction. Every full loot PvP game I've played is just a zerg-fest. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Instead, why not have a system where your inventory drops, or you drop some gold. Or perhaps one piece of gear drops. Maybe it's a ransom... :)
I’ve always been interested in a system where when you downed someone in PvP, you get a “ransom”. For example I kill Player A, I now have his gear, but he can pay to get it back. When he dies and I loot him, instead of his gear, I get an item I can turn into an NPC and Player A can go buy his stuff back. I get money and they get their gear. If he doesn’t buy it back within a certain amount of time, then I get to keep the gear.
This I feel would make PvP rewarding, but not too punishing.
[/quote]
I sort of like this idea the problem with most open world games I've played recently is actually using the open world PvP system is way too punishing and gives very few rewards making it a non factor for the most part unless you really want to steal a farming spot or can pay to remove the negative value placed on your character afterwards depending on the game. Back a long time ago I liked runescapes system where I think you dropped 3 random items from your inventory on death or something like that? then include some sort of flag system maybe a bounty hunting board so common PvPers can be killed safely while making bonus profit on top of the item drop.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-743" rel="nofollow">coryyroc wrote:</a></div>
anyone know if it will be full / partial loot? im really hoping they dont give into the carebears (+ nearly every mmo is designed around them), it ruins gaming i like the harsh penaltys on pvp but to put risks like that surely means high reward right? dont get me wrong ill still watch the developement if not but since i saw a post up about kickstarter id gladly pledge right now if there is finally a quality mmo with open full loot pvp.
stealing from houses?
also do we have any info on the combat system i saw it being tabtarget but more free to paraphrase. any idea if its more an assisted free aim? i just dislike how nearly all mmos use tab target, it removes most of the skill from the game :/
i apologize in advance if it any of theese have been answered but i dont have time to go digging recently.
</blockquote>
Please dont tell me that action combat requires any kind of skill over tab-target. Action combat is just as easy as any other combat system unless you’re missing 80% of your brain cells. BDO was the best example of how bad action combat actually is, since it’s just braindead aoe spam simulator.
[/quote]
Well said.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-772" rel="nofollow">wpmaura wrote:</a></div>
full loot is needed if you want to create any type of real sandbox economy
</blockquote>
Not really, armour and weapon durability can easily do that even without full loot.
I’ve read so many times that full loot system makes games more intense and you feel the risk, but the be honest that’s just full of hogwash, what you do is you craft or make other craft friend/guild plenty of backup armour and weapons you just stash in your bank so you can easily refit when you lose everything.
There are no risk whatsoever with full loot system when you have plenty of backup gear in bank, so just let that one go.
I know because I had a lot of backup gear in my bank in Darkfall, had a lot of ready to go fitted ships in EVE.
[/quote]
From the guy that obviously has never played a full loot game for more than 10 minutes. I've played them all and full loot makes your skin curl...love the feeling. We definitely need to have some risk reward and full loot is a great way to make that happen...very minimum we need partial loot in this game.
With limited loot, say 75%, or perhaps certain levels of gear being “safe,” players have a goal of of at least acquiring some elite pieces through grinding that they wouldn’t lose in an instant to a higher level PKer. Perhaps players could select which pieces are “safe,” but that number either disappears or is diminished when they flag. There would be the possibility of a player forgetting to secure certain gear, or having more nice pieces than can be protected. Or there might be even more PvP against those that are known PvPers that might have their spoils still on their character at any given time.
[/quote]
You talk as if this elusive thing called full loot has never been tried. LOL. There are multiple games that have succeeded and implemented it. If you think people will just wear junk that isn't true at all. If the pvp is skillful which still remains to be seen in AOC the person that continually wears junk gear will continually get beat by the person wearing good gear unless they are just a much more skilled player. You will have times where you will want to dress up and be the strongest and there will be times that you simply want to just farm and not risk a perfect set of armor, but you will know that if you go out in scrub gear you will be at a severe disadvantage.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-853" rel="nofollow">Nlytnd wrote:</a></div>
This is a tough topic for me. With 100% loot on PKs, I’m afraid that 90% of people will have “generic” gear that achieves a certain ROI (return on investment). Gear that costs 50% of “elite” gear and yield 80-90% of the effect. There will, of course, be tiers of this generic gear based on levels, but nonetheless it will be generic. Think of Runescape, back in the day; milthril, adamantine, rune. In this case, gear becomes of little value or significance, except for the ultra-elite PKers on the hunt or siege based guild combat. While some would say this is what PvP should be, I believe it could alienate “carebears” or “casuals” who would just stop trying, since they couldn’t compete. Implementation of a Mystic Forge as in Guild Wars 2 could perhaps lend value to masses of generic gear, and then elite gear could be had via crafting or Pking the generic gear, throwing it into a lottery, and winning a certain amount of time. Then again, this sounds like a boring version of gear recycling.
With limited loot, say 75%, or perhaps certain levels of gear being “safe,” players have a goal of of at least acquiring some elite pieces through grinding that they wouldn’t lose in an instant to a higher level PKer. Perhaps players could select which pieces are “safe,” but that number either disappears or is diminished when they flag. There would be the possibility of a player forgetting to secure certain gear, or having more nice pieces than can be protected. Or there might be even more PvP against those that are known PvPers that might have their spoils still on their character at any given time.
</blockquote>
You talk as if this elusive thing called full loot has never been tried. LOL. There are multiple games that have succeeded and implemented it. If you think people will just wear junk that isn’t true at all. If the pvp is skillful which still remains to be seen in AOC the person that continually wears junk gear will continually get beat by the person wearing good gear unless they are just a much more skilled player. You will have times where you will want to dress up and be the strongest and there will be times that you simply want to just farm and not risk a perfect set of armor, but you will know that if you go out in scrub gear you will be at a severe disadvantage.
[/quote]
People think of gear today as Do dungeons 50 times to get gear, or PVP arenas 100 times which is where you wouldnt want full PVP loot. Honestly they make full PVP loot a lot of players will not play and they really need players; we cannot be a game like Darkfall or Albion Online
that could make another big impact in the meaning of sandbox:
The economy is build around the player based market which means the items or services offered could also include more complicated systems like insurances or medical services or estate agencies.
On top a bounty system which brands you as a murder and the more often u kill the more information will be leaked.
Kind of like:
- u killed once outside regular pvp just for the killing or the loot your general appearance will be leaked in form of bounty posters but still without name.... (realistic) NPC Police will look for you but wont take it very serious
- u killed twice for lower reasons the posters will leak your name and it will be shown over your head when passed by, Police NPC will start to patrol the areas around the kills
- u killed three times out of greed or passion the poster will leak a general description where to find you and it will be updated dayly, NPC will now call the Police and call for help into the chat in that area which could be just as big as the original node
- at four kills your player name will be depicted red even outside regular pvp and the depiction on the posters is pretty accurate as well as the location is updated every hour, NPC Police will now use dogs which increase their radius of sight and will give away your location in chat
- when u managed to survive until the fifth kill players will be even allerted when within your highest spellrange, Police will now spawn when u have been seen by either NPC or players and will help to take you down
... of course on every stage the police will become stronger and bigger groups
When caught all items which are not sold to dealers or other players.
If u just stole stuff, the stages will be the same but without being killed for it by the police and players will have the option to take you to the police or kill you which would have a penalty as well.
Then ofc breaking in and stealing should be an option even between players. There insurances come in and the skills of the victim in securing doors and windwos could also be part housing and/or a profession.
Banks should be pretty safe and only be able to be cracked by a group of players with different skills, but the loot is bigger then... so is the penalty system.
There should also be player driven banks which scurity can be increased by investing currency into perks.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-814" rel="nofollow">Maurgrim wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/pvp-full-loot/#post-772" rel="nofollow">wpmaura wrote:</a></div>
full loot is needed if you want to create any type of real sandbox economy
</blockquote>
Not really, armour and weapon durability can easily do that even without full loot.
I’ve read so many times that full loot system makes games more intense and you feel the risk, but the be honest that’s just full of hogwash, what you do is you craft or make other craft friend/guild plenty of backup armour and weapons you just stash in your bank so you can easily refit when you lose everything.
There are no risk whatsoever with full loot system when you have plenty of backup gear in bank, so just let that one go.
I know because I had a lot of backup gear in my bank in Darkfall, had a lot of ready to go fitted ships in EVE.
</blockquote>
From the guy that obviously has never played a full loot game for more than 10 minutes. I’ve played them all and full loot makes your skin curl…love the feeling. We definitely need to have some risk reward and full loot is a great way to make that happen…very minimum we need partial loot in this game.
[/quote]
Incase you missed it, I sead I've played Darkfall first one for over a year, and I play EVE on and off since may 2003, so yeah been there done that and no my skin don't curl, fun yes for sure it is, but not really a risk of losing anything when I have crapload off backup armour/weapon/ships.