@Bajjer yes but I am trying to combat a stance here that doesn't allow even optional personal parsers, thus completely depriving a large group of people from major part of their game play. An improvement of their decks, detailed theory crafting and build development, for which parser is mandatory.
I do understand, and I get the frustration. I believe there will be this mechanic in the game, simply because people do like to do this and a lot of people like to min/max.
I also have a solid wish that min/maxing will be a waste of time as I am hoping with fingers, toes, arms, legs and eyes crossed that raiding will not be the endgame goal of Ashes and outside of raiding min/maxing holds little value.
Personal parsers in theory are a great idea. If you don't care about mathematics and increasing dps by 0.2% then you can just ignore the whole thing and happily play without a care in the world. Reality, though, is a dirty bastard and will come and slap that utopia into the ground once some talented people figure out a way to have them shared.
At that point, it is up to us as the community to do our best to foster an in-game social structure that does not reward this behaviour and does not widely adopt these artificial judgement mechanics.
I will be very disappointed the day that something like "gear score" or "achievement links" or "dps logs" are listed as requirements to either join guilds or groups. I know it will occur, no matter what we debate here, but I hope it is a long time coming and I hope by then that I have established a solid enough buffer against it to not only ignore what I see as one of the more toxic aspects of modern MMOs, but to be able to help others to be shielded from it also.
@Bajjer I was thinking more along the line of original The Secret World skill trees and deck management that allowed for amazing and meaningful theory crafting.
In original TSW deck building was so awesome that it didn't just mean 0.2% difference in your effectiveness, but you could literally have 500% difference in effectiveness depending how smartly you made your build, and applied it in practice.
In TSW skill and brain was 50 times more important then gear, and if you was smart and placed effort in your deck and play style you could have half weaker gear than other person, and be 300% more effective than him. And I'm not over exaggerating here.
But for that you need a game to well designed ability system (which by the looks of it Ashes will have), and you need a good parser to be able to work on builds.
You do not need group parser, but you DO need a personal one at least. Not having that, in a game with great skill system would just kill more than half of the fun and joy for me (and all others), that love to develop their builds and then feel the joy when they see their smarts and skills improve them, and not only what gear they wear.
@Bajjer I do also understand your point of view, and I'm glad that you are constructively arguing, and not just linking the meme of beating a dead horse like some people.
What I ideally want is to have Ashes a game where everyone can enjoy their own play style.
Facts are, we may be overreacting because we want to prevent abuse we previously experienced in other games or have seen or known people that suffered such abuse, but it is also a fact that you are simply ignorant.
If you say "it never happened to me so I am not affected, but I still want parsers and linkable achievements" you are in neutral ground and the final decision will not affect you in any way, yet you are technically spitting in everyones face that shared valid arguments why linkable achievements are a bad idea.
No hard feelings, just saying.
where did i stated that i want parsers or linkable archievments? tbh i dont care i can understand both sides. the ppl who want parsers because it gets annoying to wipe because someone is bad and ppl that dislike parsers because they want to play their way.
so why not make it optional ? if u dont want to min max then play with like minded ppl.
if u are elitist, play with ur elitist friends.
the only issue are random groups, because ppl are selfish.
if u get kicked out of a group because of bad dps/movement, and they cant clear the dungeon then look for another group that can carry u but dont waste the time of other ppl. ( and y here is the point where ppl are getting mad, and blame "elitism" but cant accept that they wasting time of other ppl)
- the EDIT button, it exists. Don't double post. - take personal matters into private messages
Actually here is a third thing in addition to the first one: READ before posting. If you actually read the discussion before giving your input on it, there should be no need to double post. You get triggered by one reply, then post a reply on it immediately to calm your rage and post a second reply once another post triggers you.
And if your next argument is that Intrepid won't do anything about third-party program users, take a hint from Square Enix.
Square-Enix said:
We
would also like to remind players that third-party tools that modify or
parse game data violate the User Agreement, and that players who are
found to be using these tools will be met with strict disciplinary
action.
Because people won't spam things without achievements, just look at Twitch chats!
Seriously
though, the fact that serious progression raiders still use third party
parsers in FF14 despite the risk should tell you how important they are
for maximizing personal and group performance.
It this really getting old with you people and your excuses to get your elitist tools.
We want tools to support a playstyle that maximizes personal performance. You give us labels with negative connotations in an effort to handicap our preferred way of playing when it would cost you almost nothing if parsers were part of the game. One of these behaviors is tiring to see repeatedly. Hint, its the one with insults.
Facts are, we may be overreacting because we want to prevent abuse we previously experienced in other games or have seen or known people that suffered such abuse, but it is also a fact that you are simply ignorant.
I've been kicked from a raid because I didn't have large enough numbers on a parser. Instead of whining about parsers, I left that guild and found a better fit. I've also seen guild leaders use parsers to carefully analyze what is happening in a fight, so that an optimal strategy can be formed and the guild can progress in the raid. Rather than fight against parsers because of the first experience, I want to enable the second kind of player that uses parsers to improve the playing experience.
If the goal is to prevent abuse, we might as well as go farther and take out the chat system entirely, as that is a frequent vector for toxicity, and our modus operandi is removing tools that allow for abuse. Or, more reasonably, we can realize that preventing abuse is a stupid reason to handicap an entire way of playing this game, and either provide a parser or, more simply, provide parsable logs so that parsers can be made.
She bowed under the pressure, hated the new
style and ended up leaving the guild. Due to this approach 5 or so other
players also left around the same time and the guild floundered after that.
Yes
it was the guild’s prerogative to do this, their guild after all, but they
destroyed their own community because they believed they needed to do what
other guilds were doing.
I don't see the problem in this anecdote. Perhaps she should have left sooner instead of caving, if the guild's refocused interests didn't still align with hers then its no longer a good fit and staying was going to inevitably lead to grief. Other than that, it feels like what should happen any time guild leadership changes its focus to something the veteran members don't support.
Not really seeing the downside if things are optional tbh, having a basic requirement to see if you qualify as simply being able to compete in a dungeon/raid makes sense for everyone involved.
Basic req. score: 100 Average score of players at the raids level: 300
^ simple example but you can see how basic "basic" actually could be to reduce an inevitable wipe against a difficult raid/dungeon/event/situation.
Not sure where the whole issue with 'elitists' comes in either tbh, every part of competitive society has entry requirements whether it be job interviews, higher education, physical performance tests, mandatory on the job training. The more time and effort people put into things the further ahead they're likely to get, and then some people just have natural talent and shoot to the top, are they elitist or simply just better at that particular aspect of their life? I get that some people are idiots and abusive but those roles aren't limited to "elitists" by a long shot. It's common sense to have a system in place that prevents new players getting ahead of themselves or having the basic qualification and knowledge to contribute and therefore actually experience the game and have fun.
Could another limiter system be used instead? Possibly but seems practical for parsers to be used as an information gathering tool, maybe limit it to a guild feature where high rank officers hosting parties can use it for training purposes (or even recruitment, nothing wrong with a top tier organisation wanting top tier participants). This would allow those people with a so-called "elitist" play style to have fun too, some people are competitive by nature, it's natural so accept it and just avoid if it's not your thing, plenty others to go play with.
Personal example time, I've been rejected from parties in the past, sometimes people were rude and other times when I asked why? how can I improve? People took the time to explain. Once I got an understanding that I was under par and that those players had needs to want to perform well, I accepted it, and me being part of that group wouldn't benefit them (or me realistically, as I'd just be leeching and not really playing) and I could either a) improve and try again later or b) find other players more suited to my current play style and needs. At the same time I've also refused people entry to sporting activities irl simply because their competing level wasn't high enough which would've been a risk to themselves but also where's the fun in a novice competing against an expert on a tournament level? Fair enough in practice depending on the difference in skill for educational purposes but not when people are actively trying to be the best. Am I an elitist for taking that approach? Not really, I just apply common sense and act appropriately depending on the situation and I respect that some people are just driven to disregard anyone low level or weak and achieve, achieve, achieve but if that's their play style so be it.
Either way competitive groups will form from the get go and if the game is as driven towards community as people are hoping then there'll be few individuals pushing abusive views and it'll be mainly the groups that have selective recruitment, so mark and avoid if you don't like. If you're seeking confrontation on this issue then you have to ask yourself why, are you secretly wanting to be accepted by the top-tier players who look down on you? is it jealousy? are you a closet elitist?! If the answers no then present a suggestion/opinion and move on as there seems to be a lot of people repeating themselves in this thread.
TLDR;
- Basic requirements are a way of life and allow people to make informed decisions (welcome to the adult world) - There are possibly other options available (put them out there if you want to counter-argue) - Parsers can be useful as an information tool for competitive players/groups, why deny that play style, devs just need to be smart about it and monitor its use - I've experience on both sides of the argument and can honestly say that "elitists" aren't bad, abusive individuals are so ignore them or to use a well known statement "get good". - Accept you secretly want to be one of the top tier, or "let it go... let it go..." and move on.
I think a combination is a good middle ground. I personally have been, and currently am, a person who does high end content in WoW and metrics is not only how I rate the ability of my guildies (I run the logs) but also how I am doing myself. It allows me to improve myself and help others. However I understand the catch 22 of then blocking off content for people who "don't meet the standards". It will be interesting to see how the game handles this. Without metrics it has potential to improve overall social cohesion, I.E. you will friend people who you feel are good and pick them to run parties over others.
Comments
I also have a solid wish that min/maxing will be a waste of time as I am hoping with fingers, toes, arms, legs and eyes crossed that raiding will not be the endgame goal of Ashes and outside of raiding min/maxing holds little value.
Personal parsers in theory are a great idea. If you don't care about mathematics and increasing dps by 0.2% then you can just ignore the whole thing and happily play without a care in the world. Reality, though, is a dirty bastard and will come and slap that utopia into the ground once some talented people figure out a way to have them shared.
At that point, it is up to us as the community to do our best to foster an in-game social structure that does not reward this behaviour and does not widely adopt these artificial judgement mechanics.
I will be very disappointed the day that something like "gear score" or "achievement links" or "dps logs" are listed as requirements to either join guilds or groups. I know it will occur, no matter what we debate here, but I hope it is a long time coming and I hope by then that I have established a solid enough buffer against it to not only ignore what I see as one of the more toxic aspects of modern MMOs, but to be able to help others to be shielded from it also.
In original TSW deck building was so awesome that it didn't just mean 0.2% difference in your effectiveness, but you could literally have 500% difference in effectiveness depending how smartly you made your build, and applied it in practice.
In TSW skill and brain was 50 times more important then gear, and if you was smart and placed effort in your deck and play style you could have half weaker gear than other person, and be 300% more effective than him. And I'm not over exaggerating here.
But for that you need a game to well designed ability system (which by the looks of it Ashes will have), and you need a good parser to be able to work on builds.
You do not need group parser, but you DO need a personal one at least. Not having that, in a game with great skill system would just kill more than half of the fun and joy for me (and all others), that love to develop their builds and then feel the joy when they see their smarts and skills improve them, and not only what gear they wear.
What I ideally want is to have Ashes a game where everyone can enjoy their own play style.
so why not make it optional ?
if u dont want to min max then play with like minded ppl.
if u are elitist, play with ur elitist friends.
the only issue are random groups, because ppl are selfish.
if u get kicked out of a group because of bad dps/movement, and they cant clear the dungeon then look for another group that can carry u but dont waste the time of other ppl.
( and y here is the point where ppl are getting mad, and blame "elitism" but cant accept that they wasting time of other ppl)
- the EDIT button, it exists. Don't double post.
- take personal matters into private messages
Actually here is a third thing in addition to the first one: READ before posting. If you actually read the discussion before giving your input on it, there should be no need to double post. You get triggered by one reply, then post a reply on it immediately to calm your rage and post a second reply once another post triggers you.
Seriously though, the fact that serious progression raiders still use third party parsers in FF14 despite the risk should tell you how important they are for maximizing personal and group performance.
We want tools to support a playstyle that maximizes personal performance. You give us labels with negative connotations in an effort to handicap our preferred way of playing when it would cost you almost nothing if parsers were part of the game. One of these behaviors is tiring to see repeatedly. Hint, its the one with insults.
I've been kicked from a raid because I didn't have large enough numbers on a parser. Instead of whining about parsers, I left that guild and found a better fit. I've also seen guild leaders use parsers to carefully analyze what is happening in a fight, so that an optimal strategy can be formed and the guild can progress in the raid. Rather than fight against parsers because of the first experience, I want to enable the second kind of player that uses parsers to improve the playing experience.
If the goal is to prevent abuse, we might as well as go farther and take out the chat system entirely, as that is a frequent vector for toxicity, and our modus operandi is removing tools that allow for abuse. Or, more reasonably, we can realize that preventing abuse is a stupid reason to handicap an entire way of playing this game, and either provide a parser or, more simply, provide parsable logs so that parsers can be made.
I don't see the problem in this anecdote. Perhaps she should have left sooner instead of caving, if the guild's refocused interests didn't still align with hers then its no longer a good fit and staying was going to inevitably lead to grief. Other than that, it feels like what should happen any time guild leadership changes its focus to something the veteran members don't support.
Basic req. score: 100
Average score of players at the raids level: 300
^ simple example but you can see how basic "basic" actually could be to reduce an inevitable wipe against a difficult raid/dungeon/event/situation.
Not sure where the whole issue with 'elitists' comes in either tbh, every part of competitive society has entry requirements whether it be job interviews, higher education, physical performance tests, mandatory on the job training. The more time and effort people put into things the further ahead they're likely to get, and then some people just have natural talent and shoot to the top, are they elitist or simply just better at that particular aspect of their life?
I get that some people are idiots and abusive but those roles aren't limited to "elitists" by a long shot.
It's common sense to have a system in place that prevents new players getting ahead of themselves or having the basic qualification and knowledge to contribute and therefore actually experience the game and have fun.
Could another limiter system be used instead? Possibly but seems practical for parsers to be used as an information gathering tool, maybe limit it to a guild feature where high rank officers hosting parties can use it for training purposes (or even recruitment, nothing wrong with a top tier organisation wanting top tier participants). This would allow those people with a so-called "elitist" play style to have fun too, some people are competitive by nature, it's natural so accept it and just avoid if it's not your thing, plenty others to go play with.
Personal example time, I've been rejected from parties in the past, sometimes people were rude and other times when I asked why? how can I improve? People took the time to explain. Once I got an understanding that I was under par and that those players had needs to want to perform well, I accepted it, and me being part of that group wouldn't benefit them (or me realistically, as I'd just be leeching and not really playing) and I could either
a) improve and try again later or
b) find other players more suited to my current play style and needs.
At the same time I've also refused people entry to sporting activities irl simply because their competing level wasn't high enough which would've been a risk to themselves but also where's the fun in a novice competing against an expert on a tournament level? Fair enough in practice depending on the difference in skill for educational purposes but not when people are actively trying to be the best. Am I an elitist for taking that approach? Not really, I just apply common sense and act appropriately depending on the situation and I respect that some people are just driven to disregard anyone low level or weak and achieve, achieve, achieve but if that's their play style so be it.
Either way competitive groups will form from the get go and if the game is as driven towards community as people are hoping then there'll be few individuals pushing abusive views and it'll be mainly the groups that have selective recruitment, so mark and avoid if you don't like. If you're seeking confrontation on this issue then you have to ask yourself why, are you secretly wanting to be accepted by the top-tier players who look down on you? is it jealousy? are you a closet elitist?! If the answers no then present a suggestion/opinion and move on as there seems to be a lot of people repeating themselves in this thread.
TLDR;
- Basic requirements are a way of life and allow people to make informed decisions (welcome to the adult world)
- There are possibly other options available (put them out there if you want to counter-argue)
- Parsers can be useful as an information tool for competitive players/groups, why deny that play style, devs just need to be smart about it and monitor its use
- I've experience on both sides of the argument and can honestly say that "elitists" aren't bad, abusive individuals are so ignore them or to use a well known statement "get good".
- Accept you secretly want to be one of the top tier, or "let it go... let it go..." and move on.