Should players be encouraged to improved?

This is something I've been debating in my mind for quite some time, and I'd like your opinion on it. When players in mmorpgs hit a difficult moment (e.g. a raid boss that refuses to die), the developers have 2 options:

1. Help the players overcome the challenge
2. Leave the players the overcome the challenge on their own

Which of these options is better for the game and the players? On the one hand, if a player hits a wall and can't overcome it, chances are they will just quit the game (no developer wants that), so helping the player overcome the challenge makes sense from a business perspective.

On the other hand, if you constantly help the players whenever they struggle, either by increasing their power or by making the challenge easier, the players will never learn and improve. Now, I know there are some people who will say that they play games to relax, and shouldn't have to spend hours upon hours improving their skills.

So, the question is, if you were a games developer and your players were facing a difficult challenge, do you artificially help them overcome the challenge, or let them figure it out on their own?

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Jjampong

I think a MMO has to be developed in such a way that it encourages players to help each other. The more reasons the developers give players for interacting with each other, the more likely this is to occur.

for that reason I think features like group finders shouldn't be a thing. Players could also be encouraged to search for parties or groups, for instance through hard content, bonus rewards, etc... etc...

StreetCornerPoet

It depends on why the wall exists and what the overall player percentage is.

If the numbers on a given boss for everyone that are in the range to do it are excessively small, maybe they need to look at the boss. Is there an ability that isn't tuned properly for the level of difficulty they want? Did they try some fancy mechanic or puzzle during the fight that isn't quite working the way they want to? There are a lot of reasons they might have to change the boss fight in that case.

Now if we look at the boss again and guilds that are set as raiding and endgame guilds are getting through and it is teachable mechanics with the right level and gear they shouldn't touch the boss outside of actual bug fixes.

But there are so many factors you have to look at and decide on from a developer perspective and behind the curtain numbers that we don't see as players to make that choice on whether to change content or not.

So I would say that it needs a case by case examination. However, I'm would rather them not just make something easier so that everyone can do it.

I would like to see instanced content have some sort of story mode where you don't really get gear rewards outside of very basic and common stuff, but where more casual players could still say they've seen the content and seen the quest/story chain for everything even if it involves easier or toned down mechanics, but you shouldn't be rewarded for something like that outside of "Yeah I got to see the end of X quest chain or story."

grisu

Assuming the game is balanced as intended, fregging leave it the way it is.
You can make multiple difficulties with different levels of rewards, but don't help after the fact is done.
I loathed the inevitable permanent nerfes in WoW raiding.
Being part of twinkraids or raids that aren't focused on clearing it as fast as possible doesn't mean they didn't want to experience the intended difficulty. Maybe they want to play in other classes but can't in the main raid or simply want to experience other roles in the raid. There are a lot of reasons.

If you don't want the challenge and play to relax it is simple. That part of the content isn't appropriate/made for you. I don't like people like that and I don't like "arguments" like that. If you don't want the challenge, why would you even need the rewards intended to go for even bigger challenges? 'Cause they look cool? Well it's a reward for overcoming something difficult.
"I want everything but I don't want to do anything for it"-attitude can fragg off if you ask me. It's an attitude that should be eradicated in whatever way possible, not encouraged.

I'm clearly for number 2 make it a combi with a bucket to gather all the inevitable salt.

Dygz

Depends on how badly that boss is debilitating the servers, how many servers are struggling - and for how long.
If that Ice Dragon is causing an eternal winter for several real life months on all servers - the devs should probably step in to help in some fashion.
If one server can defeat the Ice Dragon on their own, it’s probable that the other servers can figure it out without dev intervention, too.

Wandering Mist

muridious wrote: »

I think a MMO has to be developed in such a way that it encourages players to help each other. The more reasons the developers give players for interacting with each other, the more likely this is to occur.

for that reason I think features like group finders shouldn't be a thing. Players could also be encouraged to search for parties or groups, for instance through hard content, bonus rewards, etc... etc...

This is by far the hardest thing to do. In my experience players are more likely to just abandon the group rather than help someone who is struggling, even when just a couple of words can make a big difference and cause the group to succeed.

Jjampong

wanderingmist wrote: »

muridious wrote: »

I think a MMO has to be developed in such a way that it encourages players to help each other. The more reasons the developers give players for interacting with each other, the more likely this is to occur.

for that reason I think features like group finders shouldn't be a thing. Players could also be encouraged to search for parties or groups, for instance through hard content, bonus rewards, etc... etc...

This is by far the hardest thing to do. In my experience players are more likely to just abandon the group rather than help someone who is struggling, even when just a couple of words can make a big difference and cause the group to succeed.

@wanderingmist I do agree that this is the hardest. However, it's also the best option in my opinion. The more mechanics encourage players to interact, the better this would work. Which is why I think / hope Ashes might be able to pull it off as, even for an MMO, I think they are very focused on getting players to cooperate.

FYI: It's likely not that great or fun of a group anyways if members just abandon it. :'(

Varkun

Honestly, I don't think you want the devs to be too fast on helping out so to speak. There needs to be a good amount of challenge with encounters especially raid type encounters its part of what MMO raiders love. It could just be more about a gear check or skill check as much as anything.

I would honestly be fine if some of the raid bosses took years to take down though I guess in ashes some raid content may not be available all that long as the world evolves.

Azryil

Players should always be encouraged to improve themselves to rise to the challenge. When it comes to a seemingly unkillable boss it is still the responsibility of the developers to know why the players are unable to kill the boss. If the players are missing a mechanic or are under geared for the encounter the devs shouldn't get involved and allow the players to figure it out on their own, online forums and discords are a great place for many players from different servers and guild to come together and discuss strategy and determine what they're missing. However if they can kill the boss because of poor design or a bug then the developers need to step in and correct the flaw that is preventing the boss from being killed.

Rem_

If the bosses are beatable I would suggest not to help the players. If it's a case where the boss is LITERALLY UNBEATABLE than nerfs to the boss would be the right thing. I wouldn't say giving a player more powerful items would be the answer, and I would only say NERF the boss when it's literally unbeatable.

I'm sure the normal bosses won't be that incredibly hard, maybe just a select few. I think that will become a problem in the super high end boss encounters and stuff. If players at that height find problems the devs could look into it and see if it's too hard. I don't think new players will be turned away because I doubt raiding will be the first thing you do.

Ferryman

dygz wrote: »

Depends on how badly that boss is debilitating the servers, how many servers are struggling - and for how long.

I was thinking that too. Maybe developers should not run straight away help for players and nerf the content. They should give players a little bit more time to handle the situation by themselfs, but if it really turns to be isuberable obstacle then ofc the content might be just too hard and needs some actions.

Azryil

Ferryman wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

Depends on how badly that boss is debilitating the servers, how many servers are struggling - and for how long.

I was thinking that too. Maybe developers should not run straight away help for players and nerf the content. They should give players a little bit more time to handle the situation by themselfs, but if it really turns to be isuberable obstacle then ofc the content might be just too hard and needs some actions.

Because some encounters are created due to the level of a nearby node I could see a boss spawning that players have not reach the appropriate gear level to fight as soon as it's available. I don't think this should require the devs to intervene, after a couple guilds attempt the fight and get promptly curb stomped it should be clear that their current gear levels aren't good enough for the encounter.

Damokles

We saw, what happens to games that pander too much to their players (WoW for an example).
Players have to put some training in to actually become good in my opinion.
If they are not good enough to raid, then they either have to put some sweat into it or let it be and do something else, AoC gives them many different things to do.
(This does not mean, that specific bosses should not be patched, if they are just not killable after a number of months xD)

Wandering Mist

Damokles wrote: »

We saw, what happens to games that pander too much to their players (WoW for an example).
Players have to put some training in to actually become good in my opinion.
If they are not good enough to raid, then they either have to put some sweat into it or let it be and do something else, AoC gives them many different things to do.
(This does not mean, that specific bosses should not be patched, if they are just not killable after a number of months xD)

As with many things, WoW is the classic example of this behaviour, not only with raids but with lots of different content.

Wandering Mist

arzosah wrote: »

Players should always be encouraged to improve themselves to rise to the challenge. When it comes to a seemingly unkillable boss it is still the responsibility of the developers to know why the players are unable to kill the boss. If the players are missing a mechanic or are under geared for the encounter the devs shouldn't get involved and allow the players to figure it out on their own, online forums and discords are a great place for many players from different servers and guild to come together and discuss strategy and determine what they're missing. However if they can kill the boss because of poor design or a bug then the developers need to step in and correct the flaw that is preventing the boss from being killed.

Naturally, if a boss is unkillable due to a bug then that should be a priority for fixing. And yes we have seen bosses in the past that were mathematically impossible to kill and had to be nerfed.

These are quite rare situations though, and more often than not bosses a nerfed even though they have been killed already by the players. It's not just about raiding though. Any content can be nerfed or altered to help struggling players. For example, when TERA was first released in 2011, players apparently complained that the leveling was too hard. The developers responded by introducing Avatar weapons in 2013, which were super powered weapons that allow a player to 3-shot any mob their own level.

I was honestly shocked when I encountered these weapons for the first time and so asked on the forums if this was normal and if it was going to be like this for the entire leveling process. I was told yes to both questions, and I uninstalled the game that day.

Azryil

wanderingmist wrote: »

arzosah wrote: »

Players should always be encouraged to improve themselves to rise to the challenge. When it comes to a seemingly unkillable boss it is still the responsibility of the developers to know why the players are unable to kill the boss. If the players are missing a mechanic or are under geared for the encounter the devs shouldn't get involved and allow the players to figure it out on their own, online forums and discords are a great place for many players from different servers and guild to come together and discuss strategy and determine what they're missing. However if they can kill the boss because of poor design or a bug then the developers need to step in and correct the flaw that is preventing the boss from being killed.

Naturally, if a boss is unkillable due to a bug then that should be a priority for fixing. And yes we have seen bosses in the past that were mathematically impossible to kill and had to be nerfed.

These are quite rare situations though, and more often than not bosses a nerfed even though they have been killed already by the players. It's not just about raiding though. Any content can be nerfed or altered to help struggling players. For example, when TERA was first released in 2011, players apparently complained that the leveling was too hard. The developers responded by introducing Avatar weapons in 2013, which were super powered weapons that allow a player to 3-shot any mob their own level.

I was honestly shocked when I encountered these weapons for the first time and so asked on the forums if this was normal and if it was going to be like this for the entire leveling process. I was told yes to both questions, and I uninstalled the game that day.

I fundamentally disagree with nerfs made in this way, I find that trivializing gameplay to such a strong degree takes away from the adventure of an MMO. If you take away the challenge of a game you take away the reason to play it.

Azryil

A seemingly unkillable boss especially if it's a world boss can exist as a goal for players to strive for, every player wanting to be part of the group to finally take down this big baddie that has been crushing every group that attempts it.

amuria

Usually people play games they enjoy, this enjoyment very often comes from achieving something. Though it is a very difficult balance helping a player in his advancement is crucial, so he continues playing and doesn’t get frustrated. Staying in the middle of too difficult and too easy is called “flow”. “Flow” describes the moment when you just have gamed 4 hours, but it felt like 30 minutes.

The issue with helping players is that they would feel less enjoyment if the game helped them, usually they want to do it themselves. Another issue is the sense of accomplishment if every player can reach a goal because your game helped him, other players will most likely feel dejected when others easily achieve their achievements.

Personally, I would aim for an invisible guiding hand as a helper. Instead of making the actual encounter easier make sure the player actually has the tools for the encounter.
This would be a quest chain which leads up to the big dungeon slowly increasing difficulty but also reward the gear to be able to do the dungeon. The player learns the required mechanics step by step. In the end the boss combines these mechanics and the farmed gear of your quest makes sure you player didn’t just run into a level 30 raid with starting gear.

Wandering Mist

amuria wrote: »

Usually people play games they enjoy, this enjoyment very often comes from achieving something. Though it is a very difficult balance helping a player in his advancement is crucial, so he continues playing and doesn’t get frustrated. Staying in the middle of too difficult and too easy is called “flow”. “Flow” describes the moment when you just have gamed 4 hours, but it felt like 30 minutes.

The issue with helping players is that they would feel less enjoyment if the game helped them, usually they want to do it themselves. Another issue is the sense of accomplishment if every player can reach a goal because your game helped him, other players will most likely feel dejected when others easily achieve their achievements.

Personally, I would aim for an invisible guiding hand as a helper. Instead of making the actual encounter easier make sure the player actually has the tools for the encounter.
This would be a quest chain which leads up to the big dungeon slowly increasing difficulty but also reward the gear to be able to do the dungeon. The player learns the required mechanics step by step. In the end the boss combines these mechanics and the farmed gear of your quest makes sure you player didn’t just run into a level 30 raid with starting gear.

Ensuring that a player has good enough gear to do a piece of content is relatively easy. It's far harder to make sure a player has the skill to do that content. Part of the problem is most mmorpgs are designed around your character always getting stronger (either with levels or gear) and overcoming challenges regardless of what the player does. This creates a mindset in some players that all they have to do is play for a longer period of time to get either better gear or a higher character level in order to overcome the challenge. If a dungeon or raid encounter is designed so that players can overgear it, that encourages players not to improve their skills, but just to get more gear.

Azryil

I don't think there is anything wrong with power from gear eventually increasing to the point where the content becomes easy enough for less skilled players to eventually complete, but that power should never be artificially increased by dev interference.

amuria

wanderingmist wrote: »

Ensuring that a player has good enough gear to do a piece of content is relatively easy. It's far harder to make sure a player has the skill to do that content. Part of the problem is most mmorpgs are designed around your character always getting stronger (either with levels or gear) and overcoming challenges regardless of what the player does. This creates a mindset in some players that all they have to do is play for a longer period of time to get either better gear or a higher character level in order to overcome the challenge. If a dungeon or raid encounter is designed so that players can overgear it, that encourages players not to improve their skills, but just to get more gear.

You might have missed it but providing a player with increasingly difficult encounters to lead up to the final test (raid dungeon) also improves skills, unrelated to gear. Playing longer also increases your handling of your class so to a certain extent even without gear progression time will get you forward. Practice makes perfect.

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