Balancing around 1v1 vs group PvP

As someone who rarely engages in PvP in mmorpgs I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions on this. Often times class balancing revolves around either 1v1 or group play (very rarely can you do both). The question is, which do you prefer? Would you rather all classes be balanced around 1v1, meaning that any class can beat any other class based on skill level? Or would you prefer classes be balanced around group play?

Hypothetically of course, since we all know that true balance in games is both almost impossible and undesirable.

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Ishka

Hello there mates, I would prefer the classes to be "reasonably unbalanced" in 1v1. So the idea of the classes being perfectly balanced is bad & boring in my eyes. What would be better is all classes having strenghts & weaknesses, and the victory would be in the hand of the one who knows how to exploit these things.
I always felt it was necessary to have good & bad match-up against classes. When facing your counter, even if the defeat is unavoidable, the skill would permit do die honourably by giving a hell of a hard time to the opponnent.
I hope that in AOC the classes will be made in a way where even if the fight is hard, there is enough depth to the mechanics that you can make some sort of comeback. You see those fights were you wait for the one & only opportunity to overturn the situation and take the control of the fight are the best ones.

Regarding the group pvp, I can't think of a "balance" at all, what is a balanced group fight in your eyes ?

I mostly did group fights like 6*max vs X ennemies and very rarely large scale battles. And depending on the current situation & many aspects, it was different everytime.

To me the "group balance" would not depend on how the classes are made but how one is able to synergyse with it's teamates and make the best use of their tools. Be it like wombo combos, tactics, or even strategies in large scale battles.

To summ it up my view of balance would be that knowledges & mastery would bring greater power than things like bad match-ups, stats etc... So the classes would be balanced in the way they all provide very a high skill ceiling. Basicaly if you know the game & how to fight, then you may be able to win.

consultant

That is what Steve said in an older video maybe since then he has a different vision but definitely said it.

eragale

consultant wrote: »

That is what Steve said in an older video maybe since then he has a different vision but definitely said it.

at 40:15

https://youtu.be/ZnoHtzaQeMs?t=2415

consultant

it was a Q and A video were they were taking questions from community not content creators so...

unknownsystemerror

All very possible. Where early on we had very few sources of information and whatever Steven said was gospel and canon, that is no longer the case. They have gone on various podcasts, streams, and others without any sort of announcement or backup that many "clarifications of vision" have been missed by even the most dedicated Ashhole. And the understanding now that anything said before the Age of Maggie was just them talking out their ass and they get a mulligan is concerning also. In the end you will get what you get and you will play it, scream, rant, whisper all you like, it is not going to impact anything at this point.

consultant

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

All very possible. Where early on we had very few sources of information and whatever Steven said was gospel and canon, that is no longer the case. They have gone on various podcasts, streams, and others without any sort of announcement or backup that many "clarifications of vision" have been missed by even the most dedicated Ashhole. And the understanding now that anything said before the Age of Maggie was just them talking out their ass and they get a mulligan is concerning also. In the end you will get what you get and you will play it, scream, rant, whisper all you like, it is not going to impact anything at this point.

Not quite sure were you are comming from. Forums are designed to discuss things do not see screaming or ranting kind of like a child I suppose you were trying to implicate.

You will get it and you will play it Yes seen this type of post from you on numerous times. Most of the time bringing down the hammer on ideas that are contrary Ashes of Creation. Think you are on some Crusade to stand up for Ashes of Creation thing is no war going on here.

In my last post just wanted to say that I was not mistaken or fed this forum inaccurate information. He actaully did say that. Does not mean I am making demands or ranting or screaming. Maybe it is all that is in your head. I type one way and you read another way.

As far as it is not going to impact anything at this point heard that before I tried to to tell you this but you will not listen.

The point at which were most things do not have any impact is Beta By that time they are just polishing up the game making final tweets and testing it out on real servers. So No I do not expect to many changes at that pont.

Further more I like to add game balance is not finalized at luanch by any means. One of the devs said PvP game balance is an ongoing thing like for the next 50 years. It is not like asking for an undead campaign. PvP game balance is cheap and not so time consuming. It is all game mechanics.

So Even after launch posts like this could have an impact on the game and I will gaurantee you players will be posting about pvp gamebalance for the entire life the game.

Really do not know where you get this do not post does not make a difference mentallity. Cause it has already been decided. Seen you do those types of posts before. I remember you making a post about how people sound like cry babies too or something like that to just take the game as is. Maybe it is in your mind.

Really which posts do think are ranting and screaming. Now before you answer you will not be telling anything about the posts you will only be telling me How your mind perceives what you read.

unknownsystemerror

consultant wrote: »

Well Steve said a while ago that pvp balance was going to be around the 3v3 bracket.
Technically each bracket although similar is a differtent game. For example a class could be over powered in 1v1 an not in 5v5 or 3v3. Oddly enought just going from 2v2 to 3v3 brackets requires a jump in skill and different strategies.

So Ideally there should be pvp game balance per bracket. So the class that is great and over powered in 1V1 will be nerfed in 1v1 but since it would be impractical to have the same class as part of your 3v3 then they would get buffed in 3v3. But this gets into a lot of game mechanics. Same thing for bigger maps like 100vs100
Whatis true in 100vs100 might not be true in 3v3 as far as comps and which is best class to have.

But think Steves statement about balancing pvp around the 3v3 bracket is a sound choice without getting over involved with game mechanics.

You made this statement about balance being around 3v3 brackets. While they have said multiple times that balance is going to be a constant process and that they plan on basing it on group dynamics, no one else remembers it being "3v3 brackets". You were asked to provide a citation and gave the "I know I heard that before." excuse. Now if you can find it I will admit that is something I and many others may have missed, but I think like usual you are just spinning shit to fit the narrative you want to happen. The problem that is to be avoided is newer people looking for information then quote you and bullshit takes on a life of its own.

Jahlon

consultant wrote: »

Well Steve said a while ago that pvp balance was going to be around the 3v3 bracket.
Technically each bracket although similar is a differtent game. For example a class could be over powered in 1v1 an not in 5v5 or 3v3. Oddly enought just going from 2v2 to 3v3 brackets requires a jump in skill and different strategies.

So Ideally there should be pvp game balance per bracket. So the class that is great and over powered in 1V1 will be nerfed in 1v1 but since it would be impractical to have the same class as part of your 3v3 then they would get buffed in 3v3. But this gets into a lot of game mechanics. Same thing for bigger maps like 100vs100
Whatis true in 100vs100 might not be true in 3v3 as far as comps and which is best class to have.

But think Steves statement about balancing pvp around the 3v3 bracket is a sound choice without getting over involved with game mechanics.

Can we get citation for this 3v3 bracket being what balance is based around?

I have most citations, but I don't have this one.

bloodprophet

Did they not say group size was "tentatively 8" and balance was around the group vs 1v1?

Wandering Mist

bloodprophet wrote: »

Did they not say group size was "tentatively 8" and balance was around the group vs 1v1?

That's for instanced-based PvE, but I don't know if that will apply to PvP or not.

consultant

Sorry not going to go through loads of videos just because you question my integrity. Was just trying to answer your question from what I know. Do not see my posts as spinning things. Pretty much take the matter of fact approach. Look for it yourself.

Also was talking ablout pvp game balance in the 3v3 bracket unless Steve is going to have seperate rules for pvp and pvp then that crosses over to pve no way around it.

And if he tries to pve OR class balance in general at the eight man level then no PvP game balance for 3v3 Involves game mechanics like healer designed for 8 man group but playin in 3v3 arenas. I posted Extensively about this subject but now is archived.

Problem could easily be solved by having seperate systems as for as game balance go pve and pvp.

Dygz

Combat balance is no different for PvP than it is for PvE.
And it's balanced rock-paper-scissors even in 1v1 PvP.
I doubt sieges are going to have uses for every utility ability. As in, I don't think there will always be a need for Clerics to use Cleanse as often as there will be in dungeons and raids.

consultant

dygz wrote: »

Combat balance is no different for PvP than it is for PvE.
And it's balanced rock-paper-scissors even in 1v1 PvP.
I doubt sieges are going to have uses for every utility ability. As in, I don't think there will always be a need for Clerics to use Cleanse as often as there will be in dungeons and raids.

Do not see how this could be. Need more of an explaination than rock paper scissors.
Or this class has x strength and has y weakness. Or every class has a counter class.

Need to know things like are hit points dps ratios going to be looked at.

Is the amouont of burst dps going to equalized per class.

Will self heals be balanced to the average dps so hps are is not more than incoming dps. Talking about dpsers not healers.

Will healers be more powerfull than raid bosses in arenas.

How much is better gear going to affect arenas.

Will classes mobility be equalized in pvp in arenas in battlegrounds. For melee class if you cannot catch me you cannot hurt me especially if i go in and out of range.

Will melee ranged abilites like harppoon. have the same range as arrows and spells has to do with kiting.

Will each class be balanced as far as utility spells or abilities. In WoW Warlocks would get picked over other class just cause of utility but applies more to pve.

Are racial traits going to be looked at as far as ladder system pvp is concerned.
Does this mean racials traits could be nerfed for arenas.

Will there be different rules for abilites in pvp and pve when needed.

I really could not imagine every piece of gear in the game suited for arenas so what type of items will not be allowed in arenas.

Actually pretty small list. Some other things include things like pet abilities being on their own seperate gcd or will it cause a gcd for the player also. What type of abilities if any are going to be off the global cool down and is that something you are going to regulate per class has to do with using too many abilities at ounce.

Just go to some of the MMORPGS that are already out there and see the hundreds of pages of posts on pvp game balance. There is lot more than just rock paper and scissors.

Dygz

We are talking about Ashes; not other games.
You are the one talking about some Steven quote no one else is aware of stating Ashes will balance for 3v3.
So, you need to go find that quote so we have a better understanding of what you're talking about.

Ashes is a PvX game. There is no difference between PvP gear and PvE gear.
And the combat is going to be balanced around PvX.
If you need more details, read what's available in the wikis and/or ask the devs to provide more details.

Azathoth

I am still not sure why there is a need for PvP stats/gear separate from PvE stats/gear. If the game comes down to gear scores IS failed. If stats can't be equal in PvE and PvP then IS failed making an Open World PvX.

If a PvP focused player thinks they can't PvP "fairly" because of the gear another player has, they are either out of their league or need more practice. Again, you will likely be able to buy equivalent gear or do PvE activities to find some just like everyone else.

Azryil

A lot of games use PvP specific stats as a way balance damage against other players. This was used heavily in WoW because damage in PvE was pretty insane to the point where if players could do that much damage to other players they could easily global each other.

consultant

Actually Steve also said that PvP will not be balanced at the one vs one bracket. As far as Balancing for pve well that is actually not to difficult. If another class is slightly overpowered or does more dps well just means you kill the boss faster. Unless one class is highy prefered over all the others then PvE game balance will be fine. Do not see to many people complaining about pve game balance for classes unless one class is doing insane dps. Plus this game only has one tank class one healer class so no need to balance those out since there is only one . So as far as PvE DPS classes will need to be balanced which will be fairly easy in my opinion.

You guys can look for the quote yourselves. I already watched that vidoe so....maybe it is time for you to watch it.

Plus if he was talkign about group balance probably not talking about arenas cause group is 8 persons

Dygz

There's a trinity - but, I haven't heard the devs say there is only one tank class and only one healer class.
Specifically, we will have to see if Bard has any healing abilities.

Sarevok

When you say one class, you mean the primary classes: Tank and Cleric?

Luckily, we'll have plenty of variations of a tank and healer to hopefully fulfill multiple scenarios. PvE and PvP alike.

Sarevok

Just hypothetically speaking here, I can see an Argent being the main or off tank while able to provide support for himself and his allies with songs of heroism and battle, a paladin that maybe has access to holy/divine spells for self healing or self support and strong vs undead, a Knight being able to provide better offensive abilities but reliant on a healer, a Spellshield with offensive and defensive magic to support his tanking abilities, a Warden may have some great skills for pulling or aggro ranged targets (I hope they aren't as ridiculous as Stone Arrows from ArcheAge), a Nightshield may have access to shadows or evasion abilities making him difficult to hit, a Keeper may be able to summon his own mini tanks to help soak up the damage and last but not least - The Guardian - the true meatshield. The possibilities are endless at this point until we get to see how augments work.

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