Meaningful trade and professions (thoughts on disparity between combat and trade systems)

TL;DR: I'd like to see a take on trade/profession systems in an MMO where progression and expertise are as lauded and rewarded (i.e., parity) with the quality of rewards given to combat and raiding proficiency.

Why are tooling and support systems for player to player transaction (excepting auction/trade) still effectively non-existent; particularly given the history of issues and resolution cost to players and game support alike?

Why can't I get the same kinds of rewards for being someone who reaches the pinnacle of my trade and profession as when I am at the pinnacle of my class or skill set? Where are the "end game" versions and why aren't they of similar "shiny"? [1]

Why is it that people who go (often extremely) out of their way to help OTHERS have fun in these games are less noted or rewarded than who is on the latest leader board? I have yet to see a game offer rewards to guild leaders and officers who maintain strong clans/guilds/alliances in these games. I'd like to see a game offering that both recognizes and rewards the people (and work) that goes into creating, nourishing, and growing a clan, guild, house, node, etc.

Seriously - how the heck can anyone expect people to want to value different things in these games when the mechanics never do?

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see trade and profession systems that offer tracks that do not require combat in the same way that getting "end game" gear doesn't require trade and profession.

I mean, after all, it's not really an apples to apples comparison given the focus on 'nodes' and 'building persistence and significance' therein, shouldn't this be changing for a game/world touting nodal progression along multiple paths?

If this game can offer trade and profession systems, support economic contracting and related reliability and reputation data [2], it would make me very happy indeed, and I suspect I'm not alone.

From where I sit, listing trades and professions and methods I'd enjoy would seem more fruitful if I felt any of the above was likely to change with this game (or any other within the MMO genre, frankly).

Also: Spellcrafting please. Happy to submit extensive PBI/stories to explicate if anyone 'upstairs' is interested.

[1] - Rhetorical question; combat has always been treated as "more important", even as everyone also readily admits that what keeps folks paying and playing when combat no longer delights are the social relations forged over time.

[2] - Eve Online's market for transport is likely one of the best examples I know, right down to being able to view the statistics of a given player/account over time for statistics of relevance to a potential shopper.

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T Elf

I know they are trying to make trades more integral to the game, as you will need crafted gear, and some professions like a master gatherer who will have the ability to loot bosses for materials. Decay is part of the game so gear will need repair and eventually replacement. (much like DAoC) To operate a ship you will need several professions to build, repair, and control. Just a few examples that have been mentioned to show that trades will be needed.

Caeryl

Crafted gear will be on par with boss-dropped gear, with some one/two-off exceptions

Crafting and World Bosses will be the main way to obtain high-level gear. There are some exceptions to this in the form of Legendary items (single server drops or discoveries), and other equipment that may drop wholesale, but we want Artisans and top tier raiding to produce the lion’s share of high level, high effectiveness equipment.[26] – Sarah Flanagan

There will be an in-built system for contracted crafting.

We're going to have a UI... you're gonna put the resources in or they're gonna put the resources in. It'll be like an escrow system and then once [the job] is complete you'll get the item they'll get the money.[46]

Recipes can be obtained through many means. The wiki lists everything from raiding, to social organization quests, to religious advancement, to becoming mayor, and even just for building on a freehold.

There are many different ways to achieve recipes. We want to take crafting and house the location of those recipes throughout different progression paths, so that not everything is pigeon-holed into one way forward.[11] – Steven Sharif

Though I can’t find the quote at this moment, only yesterday I read a quote by Stephen that says you can absolutely be an artisan only, and still have immense influence and success in Ashes. I don’t think there’s going to be anything to worry about insofar as crafting being recognized and rewarded.

tiltowait

Caeryl wrote: »

There will be an in-built system for contracted crafting.

We're going to have a UI... you're gonna put the resources in or they're gonna put the resources in. It'll be like an escrow system and then once [the job] is complete you'll get the item they'll get the money.[46]

This got me thinking. I love the idea, and what could go wrong? The usual, bane of crafting, the person with 5 alts or 100 bots, teaming up with the person who just loves their fellow players and would not think of making a profit from selling things in a game, but loves crafting too. These pieces of filthy excrement will compete to drive prices down to a couple copper profit for hard working capitalists.

Brainstorming solutions, one could be sellers guilds. Mechanic: in order to accept work or list on AH in an area, must join the guild. Guild collects dues, elects officers, and most importantly sets minimum prices for work/items.

Then when the filthy under cutters establish their own city you have a new problem. Maybe some central 'princes of commerce' organization that oversees all commerce, and that could levy taxes/tarrifs against cities that are practicing bad-faith business practices (selling in the red). Taxes could be bleed-over into other game systems (caravan runs giving less profit, scouting/knowledge radius reduced, etc).

wow that got complex fast...

neuroguy

ekadzati wrote: »

Why can't I get the same kinds of rewards for being someone who reaches the pinnacle of my trade and profession as when I am at the pinnacle of my class or skill set? Where are the "end game" versions and why aren't they of similar "shiny"? [1]

The problem with pulling this is off is that "reaching the pinnacle" of crafting is just sinking enough gold and time in it to level it up sufficiently. It takes very little "skill" per se, is almost impossible to fail, and can be achieved by anyone willing to put in the time and gold. Pinnacle of class in terms of combat requires coordination between players (raids) has many paths to achieve (skill, time investment, etc). In general, the way crafting is designed is simply too trivial and non-skill based to justify making crafted gear on equal terms with raid acquired gear which requires coordination, skill, time investment etc.

If they make a skill-based crafting system, I think this would be great. Then the question becomes how do you make a skill-based crafting system that feels comparable in achievement as raiding? Well I'd say the variable resource stats, the need for caravan transports, skill-based crafting mini-games and specific environmental factors (e.g. making stronger +frost gear in the winter, and close to some mountain peak) that would hit all the checkmarks. It adds some RNG (variable resource stats), it adds the coordination of many players, you need the master gatherers, the caravan merchants, and crafters and organizing them all (yes, it's less involved than raiding, so room to improve here I guess), and there is temporal restraints (requiring certain times and places to make the best possible item is kind of like having raid lock outs, limited world boss spawns etc).

Edit: these are ideas taken from the crafting thread https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42624/what-system-would-you-like-to-see-in-crafting

In summary, if making a piece of gear on par with raid quality drops requires a similar amount of RNG, effort and occurs with a similar frequency as the raid quality gear, perfect. Otherwise one will always be better than the other.

ekadzati wrote: »

Why is it that people who go (often extremely) out of their way to help OTHERS have fun in these games are less noted or rewarded than who is on the latest leader board? I have yet to see a game offer rewards to guild leaders and officers who maintain strong clans/guilds/alliances in these games. I'd like to see a game offering that both recognizes and rewards the people (and work) that goes into creating, nourishing, and growing a clan, guild, house, node, etc.

Seriously - how the heck can anyone expect people to want to value different things in these games when the mechanics never do?

Because it's very hard to quantify those things. What does it mean to do them well? What is the criterion for being rewarded? I'd argue that the reward for managing a good guild is that you have a good guild to accomplish your goals lol. Sounds round-about but... you need to define "good" and presumably it means capable of getting something done well. So getting that thing done well is the reward.

Noaani

I'd like to see a crafting/trade system on par with a combat system in an MMO.

My big problem is, if combat rewards players with gear for combat, shouldn't sucha crafting/trade system reward players with gear for crafting/trade?

If a crafting system rewards players with combat gear, all that will do is cause every combat oriented player to become a crafter, meaning actual crafters will have hardly any customers.

On the other hand, if a crafting system rewards players with gear for crafting, that crafting system needs to be impossible without that gear. Why bother going to any sort of effort for gear that doesn't matter?

So basically, in order to have a game with a crafting system that is on par with it's combat system, it needs to have a full progression within itself. Rather than being a simple case of getting your crafting profession to the level cap and then basically being done, it needs to function like a combat system in that you get to the level cap, and then are able to actually start playing.

Azathoth

"Brainstorming solutions, one could be sellers guilds. Mechanic: in order to accept work or list on AH in an area, must join the guild. Guild collects dues, elects officers, and most importantly sets minimum prices for work/items."

I would be against a guild house, or collection of guilds, being able to control who crafts and sells what/where and for how much through in game mechanics.

If you want to undercut their supply, go for it.
If you want to do a KOS order for their suppliers, go for it.
If you want to 'threaten' or 'rough-em up' go for it.

I would even be down with guild perks that allow you priority listings (like google search results) in the Auction House. Or guild perks that allow you to identify merchant suppliers (gatherers) in the node.

But having IS implement guild controlled buyer/seller's lists in Ashes, no way.

georgeblack

I have seen only one way in which crafting/gathering is as powerful as combat.

Crafting/gathering classes are not good at PvP, Pve tank/heal/dps/support.
Crafters and gatherers are rich and loved by their guilds.

Also I have seen BDO and I quit because it felt like a second job.

Dygz

A lot of the PvP in Ashes is objective-based, so Crafters don't necessarily have to be great at direct PvP combat - they can still have significant utility with regard to completing the objectives for indirect PvP combat - like building and destroying siege engines.

Since we've been told that Master Gatherers will be required to spoil the best loot from World Boss corpses, it seems likely that Crafters will need to be wearing gear that will help them survive World Boss combat - at least armor, if not weapons. We will have to see if tools are required for crafting similar to weapons being required for combat.
It seems likely that Crafters will use the same stats on armor that Adventurers would - especially when it comes to INT or STR or STA or AGI. Crafting might also benefit from stats like HASTE or MASTERY or CRIT or POTENCY or DOUBLECAST.

Wandering Mist

noaani wrote: »

I'd like to see a crafting/trade system on par with a combat system in an MMO.

My big problem is, if combat rewards players with gear for combat, shouldn't sucha crafting/trade system reward players with gear for crafting/trade?

If a crafting system rewards players with combat gear, all that will do is cause every combat oriented player to become a crafter, meaning actual crafters will have hardly any customers.

On the other hand, if a crafting system rewards players with gear for crafting, that crafting system needs to be impossible without that gear. Why bother going to any sort of effort for gear that doesn't matter?

So basically, in order to have a game with a crafting system that is on par with it's combat system, it needs to have a full progression within itself. Rather than being a simple case of getting your crafting profession to the level cap and then basically being done, it needs to function like a combat system in that you get to the level cap, and then are able to actually start playing.

Perhaps, although there are other ways of having progression in a crafting system. In Runescape there are various guilds that are linked to skills, such as crafting, cooking and farming. These require players to reach a certain level in the the relevant skill in order to enter, and contain high level ingredients and further means of progression that aren't open to others:

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Farming_Guild

So progression in crafting doesn't necessarily need to be tied directly to gear. You can of course have similar things for combat skills. Again, going back to Runescape, players can only access the Legends Guild after completing a certain high level quest. Inside the guild is a merchant that sells keys to access high level dungeons. Honestly it's a really nice way of progressing that I wish more games would adopt.

tiltowait

A material system would be an interesting end-game for crafters. Where combat-specs get new dungeons to progress through, a new resource may come out for crafters (dragon-spider silk say). But instead of finding a new recipe or 2 that uses it, they can incorporate it into existing recipes to modify them. But only after they progress/learn the ways of it, through whatever (quests/grinding/crafting)

I'd like to see endgame for crafters with multiple paths to the same goal (best crafted items, or biggest possible bonus to over-enchanting). So if you are a crafter from regionA, you have worked on your dragon-spider silk crafting among other things to max, and you can do the best stuff in the game... but if you move to regionB where dragon-spider silk is scarce you might have to learn how to work with wolfsnot silk instead.

Ultimately I think game content needs risk to make it fun. If crafting is like many games, where X+Y=Z with no chance of failure, then it becomes a boring grind. If there is some RNG in the loop, where you have a chance of failure all of a sudden you have push your luck, calculating probabilities, and a degree of skill enters the system. Do I spend 50% resources for a 75% chance, or go to 100% for a 90% chance, or YOLO with 25% for a 50% chance.

Dygz

Max level Crafters should still have plenty of new crafting to learn via Node progression, racial progression, religious progression and social progression.

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

Max level Crafters should still have plenty of new crafting to learn via Node progression, racial progression, religious progression and social progression.

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Azathoth

I don't think those things would only unlock at max level. Hopefully they can't be 'completed' so there is always something new to do. If the racial/religious progression can be completed, it would be nice if it takes longer to do that than to reach max level.

Seems to be a huge push to find end game content in a game where the devs are trying to avoid end game content. Weird.

Dygz

noaani wrote: »

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Max level content. Ashes doesn't have an endgame.

Nagash

dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Max level content. Ashes doesn't have an endgame.

and EA doesn't have loot boxes its surprise mechanics

Wandering Mist

nagash wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Max level content. Ashes doesn't have an endgame.

and EA doesn't have loot boxes its surprise mechanics

Ooh, like Kinder Eggs? I love Kinder Eggs!!!!

Nagash

wanderingmist wrote: »

nagash wrote: »

dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Max level content. Ashes doesn't have an endgame.

and EA doesn't have loot boxes its surprise mechanics

Ooh, like Kinder Eggs? I love Kinder Eggs!!!!

They are tasty

Noaani

dygz wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Oh hey, end game content for crafters!

Max level content. Ashes doesn't have an endgame.

The act of not calling something by it's name (or lack of act) does not automatically mean that it is not the thing that it is.

If there is content that opens up at the level cap (such as a quest to receive an augment for a max level spell), then Ashes has end game content.

If there is content that can not be reasonably expected to be defeated by characters until they have reached the level cap, then Ashes has end game content.

The statement of Ashes not having end game content was in reference to Ashes not having a single path towards a single end at the end game like many other MMO's have, it was not about Ashes having or not having end game content as a whole.

T Elf

Wouldn't it be more enlightening to call it "high level content" so there would be less confusion?

Noaani

elf wrote: »

Wouldn't it be more enlightening to call it "high level content" so there would be less confusion?

It may have been, though in 20 years, I've only ever come across one person that didn't get it - and that was purely due to stubbornness rather than confusion.

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