How many MMO fanatics, like myself are disgusted at this 'alpha' drive?!

Sorry, as a LONG time MMO player (since AC1 in 98?!), I've played more than 40 MMO's through the years. I've been following this because of Steve alone. He's essentially me, I feel. We have a common game history and outlook on what we want in an MMO. But this Arena crap is horrid. The Idea that I have to struggle through this to validate my belief in the REAL game is just a horrible idea that's going to turn SO many players like myself. If this is what I have to do to get 'rewards'. No thank you. I'm now honestly on the fence about this game. A game I've been preaching to my friends about. C'mon guys, You cant make us go through this horrid experience to show our support.

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mcstackerson

ferryman wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

What system specifically are you referring to when you claim APOC systems can’t transfer to the MMO?

The combat is not what will be in the MMO. There will be action combat but it’s not going to be identical to what’s in APOC.

...I’m expecting you have more than that, surely?

But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all.

In addition, NO game needs another game to be finished. It would be much more efficient to focus just on one game at the time.

Of course IS tries to justify their actions with different kind of explanations, but it is a totally different thing who buys these excuses. Obviously, Apoc is more about a business strategy change rather than anything else.

Best regards,

Engineer..

The combat will be the same, just not in the way you think of combat.

The ability mechanics will be the same, not the whole combat design which seems to be what some don't get. The combat is there to test how it feels when you use a weapon or ability, to make sure it hits when it's supposed to, and make sure it applies any effects. In addition to making sure abilities do what they are supposed to it is there to help optimize them. It was never here to test balance for the MMO.

Actually most developers do make other "games" to test mechanics in their game, they just don't release them. Instead of making one giant game, they make little modules, similar to APOC, that allow them to test different things in the game.

I understand people don't like where we are at in development but it makes sense that before you spend a lot of time creating all of your class abilities, you would wont to test the mechanics you are going to use to create all of them.

I bolded few sentences, which are exactly one portion of my point. Apoc is not the whole combat design and not meant to test balance for the MMO. Focusing to design the combat for the MMO would automatically include these parts.

There is a huge difference between modules/testing environments when compared releasing it as an own game. We should remember that.

And for the last chapter, I do not understand the point at all, they are not forced to create all abilitites at once even it is about the MMO.

So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design. I disagree with that. I feel like you are undervaluing mechanics/optimization and how critical they will be to the overall game. For the most part, we are testing the MMO portion of the MMORPG. If they really want massive battles they claim, they need to get ahead of the curve on optimization. Making balance changes is easy but the longer they wait to optimize, the more they will build on top of it, which means the longer it would take to go back and fix.

The amount of time depends on the game. BRs are simple games. We are talking about a game mode that drops you into a map with a bunch of other people and allows you to kill eachother. Not a lot to that. The combat was already developed and being tested internally. For the most part, they just tie ability unlocks to gear, set up the map, and made it so people could drop into it. This also didn't require the whole team. It probably took at most 2 artists to make all the unique assets and a dev or 2 to put it all together.

My point is if they would want to give classes more abilities then what we have in BRs and make sure they fit the theme of the class. The abilities in the BR are all testing different mechanics and I don't think they could just distribute them all to different classes and people would be happy.

Ferryman

@mcstackerson I have not said anything like: "So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design."

So you commented on something, which does not exists...

Caeryl

ferryman wrote: »

@mcstackerson I have not said anything like: "So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design."

So you commented on something, which does not exists...

Except you did

"But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all."

You said if combat isn't there in its entirety, then the testing is useless, which is simply incorrect.

Edit: And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO, if you don't even try to offer an example of what those systems are. Even the rewards system from APOC will probably be used in progression tracking for in-game awards or titles.

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@mcstackerson I have not said anything like: "So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design."

So you commented on something, which does not exists...

Except you did

"But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all."

You said if combat isn't there in its entirety, then the testing is useless, which is simply incorrect.

Edit: And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO, if you don't even try to offer an example of what those systems are. Even the rewards system from APOC will probably be used in progression tracking for in-game awards or titles.

What??? Firstable, I have NOT said the testing is useless, so do not put words in my mouth! And for clarification, it is argued, that Apoc exists so the combat can be tested. However, the combat is not the same what we will see in MMO. It is action combat, which is designed to fit also in BR genre. Tab -targeting part is not there and it is not something you can just throw in and then you have hybrid.

EDIT: also

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO..

And when I have claimmed, that APOC is full of systems that can not be transfered?

mcstackerson

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@mcstackerson I have not said anything like: "So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design."

So you commented on something, which does not exists...

Except you did

"But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all."

You said if combat isn't there in its entirety, then the testing is useless, which is simply incorrect.

Edit: And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO, if you don't even try to offer an example of what those systems are. Even the rewards system from APOC will probably be used in progression tracking for in-game awards or titles.

What??? Firstable, I have NOT said the testing is useless, so do not put words in my mouth! And for clarification, it is argued, that Apoc exists so the combat can be tested. However, the combat is not the same what we will see in MMO. It is action combat, which is designed to fit in BR genre. Tab -targeting part is not there and it is not something you can just throw in and you have hybrid.

How do these mechanics only fit the BR genre? Do you only think that because you haven't seen mechanics exactly like this in an MMO? If you have a preference for tab then cool but even then you should be able to see how the combat would translate to an MMO.

Yes, from a design perspective you probably don't want to just throw tab in and that's why they have been testing different variations of the hybrid system internally. From a mechanics perspective, you kind of can just throw it in as there isn't anything crazy that tab needs to do that action doesn't already have. We basically are testing all the mechanics they need to create the hybrid system.

Caeryl

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO..

And when I have claimmed, that APOC is full of systems that can not be transfered?

Not even a page ago: “Sure, but still something what you can do without designing another game, and which still have extra features not relating to the MMO version”

You say it has extra features that are BR exclusive, yet point out nothing specific. You just give us vague complaints about the combat not giving you a tab targeting system, which has only one check for LoS before being confirmed to hit for a particular damage amount, so it hardly needs extensive testing in the way free-aim abilities do. As I’ve said, the only “feature” (and I use the term loosely) I’ve seen in APOC that cannot find a clear fit into the MMO is the Storm. Everything else I find rather easy to snap into place in the combat, ability mechanics, movement, and under-the-hood systems.

I don’t have to put words in your mouth when you say them yourself. You said APOC’s testing of the combat isn’t in full, so the justification of combat testing for having APOC “isn’t valid at all”. If you’d like to clarify, no one will stop you, but that is certainly how it reads right now.

grisu

The biggest issue I have with IS is that the information flow wasn't very good over the past two years. it improved significantly in the last months but in this topic we see a lot of the after effects of it.

@Atama for example.
The initial reason given to why BR. Is not just to force people to fight. It's to specifically force them to fight with action combat. When BR first was talked about Jeffrey gave us the explanation that the Tab targeting side is pretty much done (quote on quote) because they all have shit ton of experience in it, with it, around it, but action combat is a pretty new field for them individually so they wanted a strong focus on it early on to go through lots of iteration before the more significant portions of the games stages. (don't demand that I dig out the one specific stream. To much work and just showcasing what I mean with bad information flow) So having an mmo styled br is not productive it specifically needed the free aim combat, sorry not needed it was the governing idea of why this way.

The combat won't be 1:1 the same that doesn't mean everything will be scrapped and is APOC exclusive. You probably won't see lifebringers twirling animation, but the sword/shield/ spear animations are pretty grounded and in line with what you can expect from the mmo. The spell abilities are also not apoc exclusive, they stated that the effects will be tuned down, but they have been examples of what you will see in ashes.

Apoc is not a focus to be a stand-alone game and is not exclusively worked on for the sake of working on apoc. You can have your misgivings about the micro-transactions and the already present battle pass. fair enough, but claiming it is focused on for the sake of completing the BR mode is simply wrong and statements like Nagash is doing are just miss leading in an already bad general information setting.

Yes the MMO was delayed, but not because we got apoc instead. It was already clarified, but I will repeat it again. They uncovered issues with the backend not being able to handle an appropriate number of players. Yeah sucks it got delayed but don't act as if it's delayed just to get a different game out first.

I know this won't help at all, but at least I tried to shine some light on why it is how it is. Information is important and IS should have handled it better, but especially seeing how overwhelmingly bad reviews are on steam with probably half of them being unrelated to the br itself it's just annoying. You are jsut shitting into your own food like this. When castle siege comes out what will happen? We will sit on a shitton of bad reviews because of all teh q.q and "turn away potential players". Good job.

ShadowVen

*bites into an apple *.... W8 what?

Damokles

ShadowVen wrote: »

*bites into an apple *.... W8 what?

LoL-Button

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO..

And when I have claimmed, that APOC is full of systems that can not be transfered?

Not even a page ago: “Sure, but still something what you can do without designing another game, and which still have extra features not relating to the MMO version”. I don’t have to put words in your mouth when you say them yourself. You said APOC’s testing of the combat isn’t in full, so the justification of combat testing for having APOC “isn’t valid at all”. If you’d like to clarify, no one will stop you, but that is certainly how it reads right now.

Full of systems is not same as extra features. So do not exaggerate.

The combat in APOC is not 100% same as what we are going to see in the MMO. So the argument, that Apoc is out there only for testing the combat for MMO, is just not true. It is half of the truth and there is also another reason why Apoc is own separated project and a game, and the reason is business. BR games are popular and it is not a coincidence, that Apoc is a BR game. Sure it is also meant for testing of MMO, but also directed to totally another audience. And like I mentioned before, it is a totally different thing to release a game than run testing environment, the extra work and resources what that takes is significant.

Ferryman

mcstackerson wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

@mcstackerson I have not said anything like: "So something has to test everything or it's testing nothing at all? I'm sorry if i miss understand you but you claim APOC is not testing combat because it's not testing design."

So you commented on something, which does not exists...

Except you did

"But the combat is the main argument why Apoc is there at first place, and if the combat is not even the same, then the base of that argument is not valid at all."

You said if combat isn't there in its entirety, then the testing is useless, which is simply incorrect.

Edit: And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO, if you don't even try to offer an example of what those systems are. Even the rewards system from APOC will probably be used in progression tracking for in-game awards or titles.

What??? Firstable, I have NOT said the testing is useless, so do not put words in my mouth! And for clarification, it is argued, that Apoc exists so the combat can be tested. However, the combat is not the same what we will see in MMO. It is action combat, which is designed to fit in BR genre. Tab -targeting part is not there and it is not something you can just throw in and you have hybrid.

How do these mechanics only fit the BR genre?

Actually I did not say only, but okay you can interpret it either way, but I meant also. I actually editted that straight away after posting, but damn you have been fast with that quote.

Caeryl

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO..

And when I have claimmed, that APOC is full of systems that can not be transfered?

Not even a page ago: “Sure, but still something what you can do without designing another game, and which still have extra features not relating to the MMO version”. I don’t have to put words in your mouth when you say them yourself. You said APOC’s testing of the combat isn’t in full, so the justification of combat testing for having APOC “isn’t valid at all”. If you’d like to clarify, no one will stop you, but that is certainly how it reads right now.

Full of systems is not same as extra features. So do not exaggerate.

The combat in APOC is not 100% same as what we are going to see in the MMO. So the argument, that Apoc is out there only for testing the combat for MMO, is just not true. It is half of the truth and there is also another reason why Apoc is own separated project and a game, and the reason is business. BR games are popular and it is not a coincidence, that Apoc is a BR game. Sure it is also meant for testing of MMO, but also directed to totally another audience. And like I mentioned before, it is a totally different thing to release a game than run testing environment, the extra work and resources what that takes is significant.

It’s PRIMARILY for testing the mechanics that will be present in the MMO. Of course it’s not 100% identical combat what we’ll eventually get because balancing combat isn’t the purpose of the this testing. It is to test free aiming systems on a technical scale. It’s the “can we do this?” before the “can we perfect this?”

You don’t even have any proper complaint that doesn’t reek of middle school hipster hating on the “mainstream”. Until you can offer some actual suggestion as an alternative to what exists, which is at its core simply a condensed map where combat is encouraged and rewarded, then there is nothing to be gained from continuing this conversation with you.

Edit: Once again, there is at best one system that cannot make an easy transfer to the MMO. You imply there are several, yet list nothing specific.

Nagash

I am the only one who has lost track of whats going on in this thread?

Ferryman

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

ferryman wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

And please stop making claims that APOC is full of systems that can't transfer to the MMO..

And when I have claimmed, that APOC is full of systems that can not be transfered?

Not even a page ago: “Sure, but still something what you can do without designing another game, and which still have extra features not relating to the MMO version”. I don’t have to put words in your mouth when you say them yourself. You said APOC’s testing of the combat isn’t in full, so the justification of combat testing for having APOC “isn’t valid at all”. If you’d like to clarify, no one will stop you, but that is certainly how it reads right now.

Full of systems is not same as extra features. So do not exaggerate.

The combat in APOC is not 100% same as what we are going to see in the MMO. So the argument, that Apoc is out there only for testing the combat for MMO, is just not true. It is half of the truth and there is also another reason why Apoc is own separated project and a game, and the reason is business. BR games are popular and it is not a coincidence, that Apoc is a BR game. Sure it is also meant for testing of MMO, but also directed to totally another audience. And like I mentioned before, it is a totally different thing to release a game than run testing environment, the extra work and resources what that takes is significant.

It’s PRIMARILY for testing the mechanics that will be present in the MMO. Of course it’s not 100% identical combat what we’ll eventually get because balancing combat isn’t the purpose of the this testing. It is to test free aiming systems on a technical scale. It’s the “can we do this?” before the “can we perfect this?”

You don’t even have any proper complaint that doesn’t reek of middle school hipster hating on the “mainstream”. Until you can offer some actual suggestion as an alternative to what exists, which is at its core simply a condensed map where combat is encouraged and rewarded, then there is nothing to be gained from continuing this conversation with you.

Edit: Once again, there is at best one system that cannot make an easy transfer to the MMO. You imply there are several, yet list nothing specific.

You do not actually know if Apoc is primarily for testing or business, and neither do I. Either way there is still the business side involved and Apoc is also designed to be own game on top of that testing possibility. Otherwise there would not be character's like engineer for example. Even IS is aware of the their actions to release Apoc from nowhere, and the lack of communication from their behalf is related for that. At the end it does not matter much what is your or mine opinion as individuals, a good amount of people are against Apoc -project and for different reasons. What ever is the whole truth, IS has done something really wrong.

It seams you do not have anything reasonable to argue either, you focused mostly twist and exaggerate my words rather than bring anything constructive on the table. Oh well, basic forum stuff..

Atama

Nagash wrote: »

I am the only one who has lost track of whats going on in this thread?

Lost track, no.

Lost interest, yes.

Nagash

Atama wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

I am the only one who has lost track of whats going on in this thread?

Lost track, no.

Lost interest, yes.

Likes, priceless

Karthos

Hey guys, I recently started making muffins and scones in my free time!!

Nagash

Karthos wrote: »

Hey guys, I recently started making muffins and scones in my free time!!

Oh nice ^^

Damokles

Karthos wrote: »

Hey guys, I recently started making muffins and scones in my free time!!

Did I hear.... MUFFINS?!?

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